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Beginner 24x40 in Southern Vermont

Started by Lennyzx11, August 05, 2022, 01:09:32 PM

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Don P


Don P

This is a good explanation of truss design;
Understanding and Analysing Trusses - YouTube

I've done a few using the method of joints longhand, its good to understand what is going on but that kind of number crunching is where computers shine. This is from a free program, very limited and so old I'll have to load the pic from my old computer in a minute, but there are others out there.



 

My vertical loads in black hanging from the panel points represent 2000 lbs at each node with 1000 lbs at the supports, notice the vertical reactions at the supports sum to roughly 12000 lbs on the truss. You'll see I entered 20 for each vertical load so add 2 zeros to all those numbers for VERY rough ballpark estimates of compression and tension in the joints that must be resisted. Those same forces are the axial, along the grain, forces within the members. Once you have those numbers you know the forces to resist. With most roof trusses the heeljoint is the highest stress joint. You'll be in the neighborhood of 9000 lbs coming down the top chord and driving into the bottom chord. If it is a level seat cut on the bottom of the top chord it will be trying to slide outward with about 7500 lbs of force when the roof is fully loaded.

Lennyzx11

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And the first load showed up.
White pine. 26 pieces. First bill is 2317.12 with tax and delivery included. The 2ea 8x12x24ft tie beams were a big chunk of that.
First step. Sill plates of 2x8.

>
 

Southwest corner of Vermont

thecfarm

Old Ford tractor way over on the right?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Lennyzx11

Quote from: thecfarm on November 02, 2022, 07:25:23 AM
Old Ford tractor way over on the right?
Yes. It's a 64 Ford 2000 gasoline. 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Lennyzx11

Day 2 (2NOV22)

Didn't get a lot done today. Some more dirtwork smoothing around the foundation, packing down, and of course picking up Vermont rocks.

I laid the back 2x8s out on the stem wall for the sill to get a picture of how to cut them to have the lapped joints to come under the Posts/Post anchors.


 

Still have to rearrange the shop to be able to work inside with the woodstove when temperatures drop. The ol Blue truck and mowers will have to live out under the lean to during those times.


 

 

Forgive me and let me know if I get too far off topic for you guys. When you work alone (well, it seems in my case), one thing seems to lead to another and I've worked hard most of the day and not one thing got accomplished it appears!
Lenny

Southwest corner of Vermont

Ljohnsaw

 :P  Looking great.  Love the truck.  I know what you mean about working alone and nothing seemingly getting done.  Been working on my cabin for far too long!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Lennyzx11

Day 3 3NOV22

Worked on the 2x8 Sills across the back stem wall. I laid the half lap joints to fit under the two center posts. I couldn't really find the "perfect" size for the half lap joint so I decided to make them 8" total with each board cut 4". This goes under the Post bases I'm using and 4 screws to secure it and the joint together are hidden under the post(s). The corner got a full 8" half lap at 90 degrees. 
Cut these with the radial arm saw, kerfing out 1/4" or smaller, then smacking out the waste. I tryed cleaning up with a hand plane but it seemed to get clogged easily with the green pine. I don't have much experience with hand planes so could be operator error. I did have it sharp and set correctly according to Youtube gurus.
So I used the 2" Witherby chisel and the Wood is Good mallet for the first time for me to actually do it the traditional way. It went easier than I thought with pushing and shaving the face down to specs. 
Shut down at dark as wife worked late and me and the blue truck was sent to town to pick up pizza. I had forgot how dismal those old 6 volt headlight are in a good dark!



 

 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Old Greenhorn

 I stayed out of this thread while you, Don, and Jim were talking all that mumbo jumbo that makes my head hurt. :D But now that you are into the build, you have my attention and I bookmarked the thread. I also just re-read the whole thing to come up to speed (in so far as I can) and I think I accidently learned a little more about timber frames.

One trick I use on those half laps done on a RAS is after whacking out the bulk material, I slide the board laterally under the blade to flatten. Set a stop so you don't whack the shoulder. On long planks such as yours, this is probably not do-able, given the weight. In that case, take a couple of pieces of scrap the same thickness and lay the around the roughed out area and run a router around at your final depth. Last option is to use a dado blade set in the RAS to do those laps, it goes a LOT faster when you have a bunch to do.

In re-reading I just noticed where you are, DUH. I have cousins just north of Bennington, in Arlington. I pass through there a couple times a year to either see them, or on to my other cousins in Marlboro and Wilmington. If I had paid better attention early on I might have been able to help you out with those tie beams but transportation would have been an issue. I don't have a trailer that long. I don't expect to be out your way again until maybe spring, but it's just a tad over an hour from me to you.

Anyway, good luck on this nice project. I'll be reading along as you post from here on out. What is your goal before the winter sets in?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Lennyzx11

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on November 04, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
I stayed out of this thread while you, Don, and Jim were talking all that mumbo jumbo that makes my head hurt. :D But now that you are into the build, you have my attention and I bookmarked the thread. I also just re-read the whole thing to come up to speed (in so far as I can) and I think I accidently learned a little more about timber frames.

One trick I use on those half laps done on a RAS is after whacking out the bulk material, I slide the board laterally under the blade to flatten. Set a stop so you don't whack the shoulder. On long planks such as yours, this is probably not do-able, given the weight. In that case, take a couple of pieces of scrap the same thickness and lay the around the roughed out area and run a router around at your final depth. Last option is to use a dado blade set in the RAS to do those laps, it goes a LOT faster when you have a bunch to do.

In re-reading I just noticed where you are, DUH. I have cousins just north of Bennington, in Arlington. I pass through there a couple times a year to either see them, or on to my other cousins in Marlboro and Wilmington. If I had paid better attention early on I might have been able to help you out with those tie beams but transportation would have been an issue. I don't have a trailer that long. I don't expect to be out your way again until maybe spring, but it's just a tad over an hour from me to you.

Anyway, good luck on this nice project. I'll be reading along as you post from here on out. What is your goal before the winter sets in?
Hi! we are near neighbors.
I think I'll try your tip on using scrap wood to set up a router sled to clean up better. I do have a power planer and thought of using it also. The router wil be good to use for housings later also. I like using the RAS but it is a little klutzy on this bigger stuff. I plan on routing the edge of the sills to avoid splintering so it's due to come out anyway.

As far as goals, like everyone else as far as I can. I'd like to get those two tie beams laid out, cut, and up in the air if at all possible. The rest I have plans on sliding them in the walk in door to the wood heated shop with a tarp curtain and work on one end at a time. We will see. I know that raising bents are the best way but with the 4 ft stem wall on the back vs the flush front and picking those bents up with my tractor alone, It may work out better to "stick" build those one piece at a time.
Southwest corner of Vermont

Don P

If I have my drawknife handy, most of the time I'll kerf fairly close together and then drop the drawknife in one of the kerfs and twist to lay the slivers over then pull and clean the face. turn around and clean the remainder. But I'll use a slick or chisel or sanding disc on a grinder, or sanding belt stretched over a thin board. If you are sanding you are done cutting. Fine technique is secondary to getting the result needed to keep going. When the grain damns every other approach remember getting the surface needed is the goal. I love watching third world workers, often they don't do anything "right" and if results matter a good many can spank most of us  :D.

I'm hoping I remembered to say those 2x8's should be treated. It also wouldn't hurt to put sill seal between them and the concrete wall.


thecfarm

All is looking good.
Does take time working alone.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Lennyzx11


7NOV22
Good morning everyone. Nothing got done Saturday. Had to rake leaves and mow for what I hope is the last time for the season.
Sunday I rearranged the shop to be able to do work inside through the winter. 

First Post! Everything went absolutely not a hitch Perfect!
Not....

We're not going to get too much into it, suffice to say that the first diminished haunch mortise didn't go as wanted.

After laying out the tenon on the top per Jim's directions, I cut it out fairly easily with the wormdrive saw.
Then cleaned it up with the drawknife I've had for years as a wall hanger per DonPs recommendation. Nice and easy work. Now I have to sharpen the drawknife razor sharp. Hanging on the wall 20 years after picking it up in a garage sale long ago for wall art didn't do it. Who woulda thought?

I then cut the first mortise with the Makita chain mortiser. 
First unforeseen issue. The mortiser didn't quite go through the 8x8 post for a through mortise.
No problem. with the layout off the Reference face as instructed it was simple to flip the post over and clean the remainder out. And it all lined up! 

Then I screwed up but I think it's saveable. I was trying to figure out how to use power tools to cut the angled portions of the dovetail as I didn't quite trust being able to hold the slope as required by hand chisel. (and yeah kinda lazy) I found that the LinearLink saw (like a Prazi Beam cutter) would cut an angle inside with the table dropped all the way down. 
Luckily, this was near close to Jim's instructions to have 2" of "flare" on the outer end. It cuts at about 1 3/4". Then I hand chiseled to spec.

And then the fight started... 
Somehow I didn't account for that 2" drop into the seated position during layout. Thought I did.
 I cut a template of one of the 2x8 sill offcuts and bandsawed it to shape and played with it for a couple of hours. But nope. no matter how much I keep messing with it, the tie beam will be too low from original plan so all of them will be low to match. 
This sucks. But wait! At two in the morning, I realized that I can cut the tenon off the top and it's shoulders and bring everything in relation to each other as it should be. The post was longer than needed and I hadn't cut it off yet so I get to stretch it at the bottom. Yay me...

So now for today's assignment. I need to sharpen the drawknife, sharpen the chain on the LinearLink, rethink on how to cut those slopes of the dovetail efficiently(lazily),
And redo the top tenon and shoulder to match right. Then I can cut the wedge mortise to size.

All in all, a good day with a learning experience.
Though that post is still probably dizzy from being rolled over and over. And over.

And to all, a good day,
Lenny

Overview of all the "stuff" drug out to work on the first post.
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View of the template being squared within the mortise in relation to the post in order to see exactly what needed to be done on the slope to fit correctly.


 


View of the template itself showing the supposed tiebeam's layout. (we're gonna practice on posts a bit more for now..)


 


Southwest corner of Vermont

Lennyzx11

12Nov22
Not much accomplished today I'm afraid. Rain for the first half of the day. I spent time sharpening everything during that time and "thinking bout it". 
Then as dark approached, I decided to get something  done. I drilled through the sill plate with a forstner bit and then drilled into the stem wall to set a red head wedge anchor for one of the center wall posts on the back wall.
And of course the **** thing doesn't go in all the way right. I hate these things. With the cutoff grinder, bandsaw, and other assorted stuff, I get the thing out and replaced. Turned into a 2 hour job for one post anchor. 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Lennyzx11

12NOV22 moved posts into garage before rain started. Got one post done, stood up, and anchored. Got its front mate done with exception of brace pocket. I wanted to read up a bit again on those first. 
Even after being super careful, I managed to cut the dovetail the wrong way in the tie beam joint. Since it's a gable end, and will have center support post(s) spanning the 24', I cut the dovetail out and it's now a full width and through housed mortise and tenon joint. That tie beam will need to be scarfed over a center or offset post also. 


 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Lennyzx11

19NOV22
Managed to get a couple more posts done the last couple of evenings.


 

Also managed to get to do my first "do over". After cutting a post tenon and mortise for the tie beam, I cut the slope the wrong direction for the half dovetail with wedge I wanted to use.
I decided that though it wasn't "right", I could still use it though the tenon for the top plate would be off and would need custom cut.
So I redrew the lines carefully for the housing on the opposite side from the reference face as instructed.
Then promptly stuck the Saw into one of the original Housing lines that I hadn't marked over or erased during the change.
So now it was definitely a scrap piece. Luckily, the post(s) up on that knee wall are cut short enough I can redo it without sacrificing the whole post.
I know you guys never do boner moves like that.


 

After that move, I decided to put the tools down, throw a couple more pieces of wood in the fire, get a bubbly pop and retire to my "groaning chair" upstairs.
If you don't have one in your shop, it's very highly recommended.
A "groaning chair" is where you go to sit in your shop to contemplate the last screw up you just made.
Mine gets a lot of use so if you get one it should be very very comfortable. As I approach 60, it's also good for a nap or two I admit.


 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Don P

That's why I'm not a plumber, my mistakes warm me twice  :).
On the road as a young carpenter, well, there's a bum set of stairs in the kudzu behind a bar in the deep south  :D

Lennyzx11

With family running in and out for the weekend, i shut down operation and cleaned the shop up. 

 

I did have a question for the gurus though as I get close to completing the posts. 
I will have to make two scarf joints on the back wall it looks like to attain the 40 feet needed.
Where would you put the two scarf joints for strength and aesthetics?
The posts are 12 feet apart. The top plate will be 8x10. 
My first thought is to straddle the two middle posts with the bottom of each scarf over the "outboard" brace of each side. Then lay the other two plate Timbers over the corner
Posts and the scarfs on each end of the center timber. 
Thoughts?


 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Don P

I leave joinery in space to those smarter than me. Why approach the strength of an undamaged beam when you can have the full strength of a fully supported one?

Absent engineering, which I have not seen, this is what the building code says;
QuoteThe ends of beams shall have not less than 1½ inches (38 mm) of bearing on wood or metal and not less than 3 inches (76 mm) of bearing on concrete or masonry for the entire width of the beam. Where multiple-span beams bear on intermediate posts, each ply must have full bearing on the post
Ag is typically exempt from the laws of man but man's law there is with respect to natures laws... which is often the case  :).

Lennyzx11

 

 

 

 

 

 

30DEC22
Today's warm weather (50ish) got me out to stand one more post and to start moving the first 8x10x 16' into the garage. This will be part one of the top plates going across the "rear" of the carport. 
It took a bit of ingenuity to bring the timber in through my small garage door but nothing terrible. Part of working by yourself.

I did want to make a shout out for the purple lifting strap and 1000lb pump up cart that both came from harbor freight. Both are at least 10 years old and never one issue. 
Good stuff.
Southwest corner of Vermont

Old Greenhorn

I wanted to get one of those pump up carts, but shop floor space is always an issue here, so I make do. But I did get a hanful of those purple slings for doing mushroom logs and loved them. My buddy Bill saw them and wanted some, but when I went back 6 months later I could find none. Still looking. Maybe they will have some when they open their new store down in town, just 12 minutes away. I hear 1/10 is their target date to open, but we'll see. All the contractors are working like mad and they were painting the building front yesterday getting ready for the sign.
 Where is your closest one? Troy?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Lennyzx11

Yes. Troy is the closest. I have a Rigid radial arm saw. (I know, I know. I'm going to cut my whole head off with it someday) the stand has enough space underneath to park the lift table. So space use isn't too bad. 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Lennyzx11

6JAN23
Laid out the top plates for the rear wall in the shop as it's raining.
Mail lady knocked on shop door and said she hated me and carry my own package. 

 

This should help make the bridle joints that Jim mentioned earlier in another thread. 


 

 
Southwest corner of Vermont

Lennyzx11

 

15MAY2023
After waiting for the weather to break and catching up on my chores, I returned to working on the carport. 
I finished my half lap bridle joint to go in the center of the rear tie beams and two beams on the open end wall.



 

Jim Rogers sent me my Big Al Deluxe. It's unbelievable how much faster the layout seems to go. I was doing fine with square and measuring tape but this sure makes it quick and consistent.

I didn't seem to get a picture of it. Maybe next time. I did get a picture of my homemade tenon checker.


 

Then another load of mostly brace stock 4x6s and some 4x4s to start cutting braces. I should have done them first but I wanted to see how the frame fit for my first learning cuts (some trimming was involved admittedly). Now to begin braces after rereading Jim's dissertation on Brace layout posted on here periodically. 


 

Things are getting better with my work as I go along. 
 Paying attention and conforming to the tried and true standards that this forum and my books from Sobon and Chappell has made life easier and I'm getting quicker though I've not been in a rush. I hope to have it roofed and near done by Labor Day as my goal. 

My biggest mistake I'm working to correct is the Sawsquatch lines not meeting perfectly when cutting from opposite sides of a cut. I'm doing something not quite right though paying attention to the waste side of the kerf, making sure the saw is 90° vertical, I still manage to get a slight mismatch that shouldn't be there that I have to clean up. 

The bigger side of the tenon(s) where they are 4" deep to cut off the waste opposite the reference face is too deep for the 7 1/4 saw to cut and the 16 1/4 is unwieldy so I'm looking for better ways to do those productively if anyone has hints. 

Mortises with the Makita mortiser are getting easy. I used the technique posted here of cutting down on one side and turning the machine around to cut the other end. (You have to move it anyway)

So.. braces, couple more posts, those two long 24 ft tie beams, and then move up to the principal rafter stages. 
Gettin there....
Southwest corner of Vermont

Old Greenhorn

Good to see you are back at it and making progress, not only with the build, but also with your skills. It's looking good. Timber frame is something I am not quite ready to tackle yet. A man's got to know his limitations. :D

 BTW, thanks also for coming to David's service in April, I am sorry I was a bit distracted that day and not exactly myself. I never even thought to ask you how you knew David. I do appreciate you coming to the service, that was a nice surprise.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

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