New to drying wood, Many questions

[Randy88]

Don, thanks for the explanation.   Is there any issues with mixing it with windshield washer fluid instead of just water for use in the winter and cold weather applications?

[Don P]

That's not a mixture I've heard of so no idea on what is in there or what that would do. I think the alcohols in washer fluid can go right into you.

Bora-care, one of the listed borate pre-mixes, contains ethylene glycol... regular anti-freeze. Another uses propylene glycol, RV antifreeze. Another uses polyethylene glycol, read a can of Dr Pepper or the jug of go lytely from the docs.

It does like to form rock candy in your solution, especially as the temps drop. Clean out sprayers well when you're done and try to use it all in a session.

[WDH]

Mixes better in hot water.  I mix it in 5 gallon buckets that are allowed to sit for 24 hours, and by that time, it is completely dissolved. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

A one-time spraying with borate (or dipping) penetrates the wood maybe 1/64" with wet wood or partly air dried.  Borate forms a barrier to prevent insects from getting inside the wood.  It does not affect insects already in the wood.

Borates are water soluble, so they wash off easily if the wood is exposed to rain.  Otherwise, the borate lasts for years.  In fact, if you sell borate treated wood, you are required to supply the customer with a consumer information sheet (CIS) for the borate.

If the kiln goes over 150 F, the wood is sanitized at that moment (but not forever), as this temperature heats the wood through and through to 133 F.  If the KD wood is then stored, there is no risk of PPB, becaus all PPB, except the lyctid PPB, do not inhabit low MC wood.  The lyctid PPB can be prevented by avoiding storage conditions that have wood that has not been KD at 150, avoiding contact with foreign wood, and avoiding storage that is NOT free of sawdust and other debris that can be a breeding ground.

As mentioned, the lyctid PPB can takes several years to appear in KD lumber.  When it shows up, the infection can be from your storage after KD, from shipping, or from the customer's wood handling, including other furniture.   Other PPB that infect air drying wood appear in weeks...the ambrosia PPB can have three crops of insects per year.  The lyctid PPB is only in hardwood lumber and almost 100% in grainy hardwoods, as the "holes" in the grain provide the location for the female to lay eggs.  The eggs hatch and the larva, which are initially minute in size, burrow into the wood so are not seen.  They grow inside for years inside with absolutely no evidence on the outside of the wood.   This is why borates do not affect them once they are inside the wood. When the larva are ready to convert to an insect, they burrow to the surface and leave sawdust and a tiny 1/32" to 1/16" hole.

Once we have infected wood, heat or fumigation is the only control.

[Den Socling]

Don, I wondered where the bugs were popping up so fast! And yes, my son, Garrett, has a lot of control systems at Turman. They have been a good customer for many years. They are a proponent of Dennis Clay, if I remember correctly. He has a schedule where he dumps - and I means dumps - heat and humidity while drying maple. Garrett builds special controllers to do this. The idea and his controllers have spread through the Shenandoah Valley.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

A few comments about Boracare.

It is design to be mixed with water before use.  To kill existing insects, basically mix 1:1.  For a preventative, mix 5 parts water to 1 part concentrate.  As a preventative, use 1 gallon of the 5:1 dilution per 400 BF of lumber.

Although it uses ethylene glycol, there is no free ethylene glycol in the mixture...I believe it converts to ethylene oxide, which is not car antifreeze.

Indeed, the glycol is the hazardous part of Boracare, so avoid eye contact and avoid contact with children especially...I think that means do not use treated wood for baby cribs, toys, etc.

The MSDS that you must provide to people that buy your lumber if you use Boracare is
http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/infosheets/boraMSDS.pdf

Note that you are advised to avoid the smoke from burning Boracare treated products. 

As much of the chemical when used on lumber by sawmills will end up in planer shavings, it is important to properly dispose of such shavings rather than use them for pulp and paper, burning, mulch, compost, animal bedding, etc.  This applies to the ultimate user of the lumber too.

I do not recall ever seeing medium or larger size commercial sawmills or wood manufacturers using Boracare or similar products in the US on their lumber or wood products.

[Don P]

The borate I've seen log home manufacturers use is DOT, disodium octaborate tetrahydrate. Timbor is the listed chemical for wood use. Solubor, chemically identical, is listed for ag use as a boron amendment. Both come out of the same pit, one goes into a bag that included the regulatory cost of listing as a fungicide and insecticide, the other into a bag listed as a soil nutrient. Timbor is correct for wood use, although I can argue that solubor is correct if the shavings are land applied. They are the same thing. If you use Timbor the shavings should be treated as waste. If you use Solubor and have a documented boron deficiency in the soil those shavings are allowable as a soil amendment under organic farming regulations. We have a win-win scenario in there if we use our noggins.

Several of those manufacturers dipped their logs but it was not mentioned or used as a selling point. I asked one of the managers at a plant one time why they didn't advertise that they were using borate. "If we advertise that we are treating the wood then we have to treat it to a standard, we are just buying you time during construction. I don't sell treated lumber."

Personally, my scale is tiny, the people that get borated wood from me know it but we should think all the way through scale. I'll ask for a cite of the law here, let's see the text of what is required.
Does a farmer hand me paperwork stating he put roundup on my corn flakes?

I learned in construction that people will quote "the code". Codified (written) law. All of these laws from cutting hair to murder are spelled out by some codified law. I learned to simply ask for them to cite me. When an inspector or a cop "cites" you, what you are getting is a citation, or recitation of the chapter and verse of the written law that pertains to the issue. Out would come the code book and we'd look it up. Only with that in front of you can opinion turn into a real discussion. Sitting on the tailgate or in some room full of suits, steel sharpens steel. We usually found we preferred and enjoyed the tailgate jousting.

Ethylene glycol in straight form can be bought at the paint store... its a common flow control additive for paints. The other glycols are non toxic if that is of concern. They simply dry slowly and help wet out the wood so the borate can get in deeper. Green lumber off the saw is fully wet, no wetting agent is needed. The addition of glycols is simply to wet out dry wood to enhance penetration. Those of you that farm know what we are talking about here, I believe any glycerin based soap would do the same thing. If there is more going on here chemically I'd like to see discussion of that.

I'm not sure what the freeze and crystallization points are. I'm not dipping this time of year but have done some in milder winter weather. At a 10% solution it will start to precipitate out crystals in the cold. In hot weather you can go up to 15% but clean any spray equipment really well.

This is one treater's website, no knowledge other than seeing it at the building supply. This is required in some areas with high insect pressure;
http://www.conradfp.com/building-products-bluwood.php#

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Because Bora-Care will kill plants, it would seem that this material, including planer shavings, should not be used in soil.  The information on killing plants is in the MSDS, linked in an earlier posting.

Regarding the requirement to notify customers about treated lumber, including borates, this is covered under U.S. Department of Labor, Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), Hazard Communication standard (HCS), 29 CFR 1910.1200.

Use of Round-up or similar pesticides is controlled so that none (or very little at limits set by the government) is in our food.  Some insecticides, when used on plants or animals, do show up in food and so their use is banned or restricted.  Some people do not like the governmental small levels permitted, so they use "organic" products like milk. 

Similarly, when preservative chemicals are added to wood by a processor, they are required to indicate this, as there can be disposal problems in wood waste or allergic problems by some people.  Treating, but not advertising it, is not acceptable. ( It is similar in some ways to having the use of peanut products mentioned in products, including if peanuts were used in the same processing facility, but are not in the product itself.)  The overall concern is people and environmental safety. The licensing of wood treaters is strictly controlled.  Enforcement is often at the state level.

[Don P]

I agree, shavings from bora-care or anything other than pure DOT should not be land applied. DOT itself is fine if your soil test report shows a deficiency of boron.

This is the OSHA Hazard Communication document;
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099

Labels and other forms of warning—
  1910.1200(f)(1)
Labels on shipped containers. The chemical manufacturer, importer, or distributor shall ensure that each container of hazardous chemicals leaving the workplace is labeled, tagged, or marked. Hazards not otherwise classified do not have to be addressed on the container.
I believe Solubor and Timbor fall under Hazards not otherwise classified
1910.1200(f)(4)(i)
For solid metal (such as a steel beam or a metal casting), solid wood, or plastic items that are not exempted as articles due to their downstream use, or shipments of whole grain, the required label may be transmitted to the customer at the time of the initial shipment, and need not be included with subsequent shipments to the same employer unless the information on the label changes;
  1910.1200(f)(4)(ii)
The label may be transmitted with the initial shipment itself, or with the safety data sheet that is to be provided prior to or at the time of the first shipment; and,
  1910.1200(f)(4)(iii)
This exception to requiring labels on every container of hazardous chemicals is only for the solid material itself, and does not apply to hazardous chemicals used in conjunction with, or known to be present with, the material and to which employees handling the items in transit may be exposed (for example, cutting fluids or pesticides in grains).

From my read of that, borated lumber heading for further processing should be labeled and linked to the MSDS. A finished product, an article, does not require labeling. A pre notched log home log would fall under this I believe. I don't see a problem there.

This is the MSDS for Timbor;
http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/infosheets/TimborMSDS.pdf
MSDS for Solubor;
http://www.compostwerks.com/images/Solubor_MSDS.pdf

The chemical composition and Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) Registry Number are the same, Timbor has an EPA registration as well.

From the Solubor MSDS;

Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act: Pursuant to 21 CFR
175.105, 176.180 and 181.30, Solubor is approved by the
FDA for use in adhesive components of packaging
materials, as a component of paper coatings on such
materials, or for use in the manufacture thereof, which
materials are expected to come in contact with dry food
products.

That is from the labeling of the ag product. I believe they are acknowledging other uses. When you read the MSDS's this is not recognized as a hazardous chemical, it can produce nuisance dust, the same classification as wood dust.

[Darrel]

Don, I've put tons of solubor on blueberries fields and often wondered why I couldn't use it on my lumber. Now I know that I can and I do believe it costs a bit less than the timbor.  The solubor is a very fine powder and dissolves rather quickly.