Why so many 8 wheelers

[Firewoodjoe]

I've been looking for a bigger forwarder. Deere offers 6 and 8 wheel and yet 90% are 8 wheel. Why? I want a 6 wheeler. 6 cylinder. 

[Firewoodjoe]

And why do the Deere's have rust/burnt paint on the side of the hood? Preheater is all I can think. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Because 8 wheelers float better allowing guys to carry wood over worse ground without as much rutting. Putting tracks all the way around an 8 wheeler it'll go places loaded you could never dream of taking a 6 wheeler. Theres also more tire on the ground for stability. 

When we used to cut USFS ground we would be hauling wood out while the 4 and 6 wheeler guys would be shut down from the forester.

No idea on the JD machines. Haven't really seen too many UP close around here.

[barbender]

What Chevy said. Flotation and traction. I know very little about Deere machines other than they're green and the cab spins on some of them😊

[Firewoodjoe]

8 wheelers have no traction. I watched one all winter and what a joke. They require tracks. Even now in hills they need them. Pushing a truck loaded and they are spinning all over like on ice. 

[barbender]

Running one and watching one are two different things😁 I have skidded hills with no iron, that I wasn't even sure if I was in Minnesota anymore. Absolutely once the snow and ice is present you need tracks and chains, but I can't see where a 6 wheel would've done better in that regard. If the woods are wet or icy you are screwing around if you don't have tracks and chains on, imo. 
 Once I had to push a dead loaded truck, uphill with the brakes set because the air leaked off with the 8 wheel BuffaloKing. Put half a load of wood on the machine and away it went. If you're trying to push or pull stuff with a forwarder without any weight in the bunks, you're more than likely making a fool out of yourself.

[chevytaHOE5674]

We were on a job with a guy his 6 wheeler with tracks and chains sank to the belly pan. I took our 8 wheeler with one set of tracks and chains and drove to him, unloaded him onto myself, pulled him out, and then proceeded to skid 10 acres of wood across where he got stuck...

[barbender]

Chevy, even though I'm with you on the 8 wheels positives, I bet that sunk 6 wheeler had as much to do with the operator as the machine.

[Firewoodjoe]

We were on a job with a guy his 6 wheeler with tracks and chains sank to the belly pan. I took our 8 wheeler with one set of tracks and chains and drove to him, unloaded him onto myself, pulled him out, and then proceeded to skid 10 acres of wood across where he got stuck...

I agree with that. But we don't cut wet ground generally. 

[Firewoodjoe]

Running one and watching one are two different things😁 I have skidded hills with no iron, that I wasn't even sure if I was in Minnesota anymore. Absolutely once the snow and ice is present you need tracks and chains, but I can't see where a 6 wheel would've done better in that regard. If the woods are wet or icy you are screwing around if you don't have tracks and chains on, imo.
Once I had to push a dead loaded truck, uphill with the brakes set because the air leaked off with the 8 wheel BuffaloKing. Put half a load of wood on the machine and away it went. If you're trying to push or pull stuff with a forwarder without any weight in the bunks, you're more than likely making a fool out of yourself.

Loaded with tracks on the back. In dirt. No ice yet. And I ran my 4 wheeler all winter and never put chains on it in hills. First and only winter that happend though.  A lot has to do with how the job and machines are cut and operated. I do believe an 8 wheeler would be unbeatable with tracks all the way around. I just don't want one I guess.

[Skeans1]

@Firewoodjoe
It's also going to come down to tire choice for the application the standard forwarder style tires not running tracks don't fair very well when ram bare. That said we've had both over the years and the 6 vs 8 if both are tracked up same operator the 8 will go on steeper ground as well as rougher ground such as holes.

[barbender]

Joe I can only speak to what I've experienced firsthand, and that is Ponsse Buffalo and BuffaloKing 8 wheels. The standard configuration for us is tracks on the back and one set of chains on the front, and the machines run that way 80-90% of the time. The rest is with no tracks or chains sometimes in the summer. In 11 years I had both ends tracked once, on a soft job. Really wasn't necessary either, but the forester was being really fussy.

 I don't know what the the operations you saw were running for machines or how the operators were doing things, but I can say the machines I ran were rarely wanting for traction. Steep hills they would sometimes spin, but often as not the hydraulic drive would hit the relief pressure. Never have I spun all over pushing a truck, and I've pushed a LOT of trucks...that said, our trucks are #90-100K, your's are #160K? I'm sure that makes a difference😬

[Firewoodjoe]

Joe I can only speak to what I've experienced firsthand, and that is Ponsse Buffalo and BuffaloKing 8 wheels. The standard configuration for us is tracks on the back and one set of chains on the front, and the machines run that way 80-90% of the time. The rest is with no tracks or chains sometimes in the summer. In 11 years I had both ends tracked once, on a soft job. Really wasn't necessary either, but the forester was being really fussy.

I don't know what the the operations you saw were running for machines or how the operators were doing things, but I can say the machines I ran were rarely wanting for traction. Steep hills they would sometimes spin, but often as not the hydraulic drive would hit the relief pressure. Never have I spun all over pushing a truck, and I've pushed a LOT of trucks...that said, our trucks are #90-100K, your's are #160K? I'm sure that makes a difference😬

They were ponsse Buffalo. And yea our trucks are 159 and 164. Legally that is.  And I'm not saying a 6 wheeler would do better. But I could get away with just chains on the front most times. I'm not winding what I want anyways. Prolly won't. 🤦‍♂️

[Firewoodjoe]

@barbender how many hours have you sat in a single forwarder before engine or driveline/boggie problems? 

[barbender]

Well, the only machine I sat in exclusively was the '17 BuffaloKing I got new. It had 7500 or so hours when I got out of it. That machine had zero engine or driveline issues, very good👍I've been in and around several other machines, we had one Buffalo that had probably 30K on it when it was finally traded in. I was running it from around 16K to 20K or so. That machine was really reliable engine and driveline-wise too. It was still a productive machine when it was traded. I was in one other BuffaloKing for 4 years or so. That one was probably an '08 or so. It had many engine issues and before I got it, apparently it was on it's 3rd engine at 12K hours😬 It was purchased low hour used from down South somewhere. Apparently someone had messed with the air filter system (or they were just running without one) they had managed to coat the intake system with dirt so it ate a few motors before it was figured out🤦‍♂️I did have a transmission failure in that machine, don't really know what caused it. In fact, it didn't even lay down. It was into Ponsse for routine service and they found bearings in the oil😬 So they replaced it. As far as I can remember, that was the only major component failure I had in 25-30K hours in the seat.

 The Mercedes engines are very good, IMO. I'm pretty sure if my boss could've figured a way to economically stuff them in Cat, Deere, and Cummins powered equipment he would've. 

 I never saw any suspension/bogie issues that weren't caused by operator neglect/inattentiveness. There are big bolts that hold your main axle into the C-frame of the machine. They come from beneath (they thread into the brake cans, I guess) and up through the frame, where they are tightened in place with a large nut. You have to keep those nuts tight, if they get loose, they will break and then there is a cascade effect of things that keep breaking until you have some real issues. All completely preventable. 

 One of the nice things about getting a new machine is being directly responsible for everything on it, and being able to see a difference if the machine is treated well. I crawwwwwlllll through the woods- loaded, empty, don't matter. I figure if it's knocking my guys out it's beating the machine to death too! The shock loads generated from slamming off stumps etc. tear stuff up, especially with 5 cords of wood piled on top of the machine. My method was to "load big, drive slow". I was one of the most productive operators, and I didn't break stuff. I've seen that go through the woods so fast that even though the load is a foot beneath the stakes, they still have sticks flying out. Idiot, is all I can say. Make your time with smooth, efficient unloading and not skidding speed. Hope this helps.

[barbender]

I should clarify, the only bogey issues I ever saw were the busted up mount from operator abuse. The only other bogey issue I saw was also operator abuse- letting chains get so loose they ride over on the tire and cut the bogey axle beam. Not good!

[Dom]

On the rottne SMV we used to say there wasn't much difference in floatation or traction between the 6WD and 8WD. There was a difference in the ride. A 6wd would go over and feel 1 big bump, the 8wd, 2 small bumps. 
The 6wd in winter users would place tracks in the back, chains up front. 8wd tracks all around in winter. 
Summertime it depended on the ground, but almost always tracks in the back. 

Some would put chains on the frontmost tires instead of tracks for the 8wd. It seemed to work well for summer and winter. 

[Firewoodjoe]

Thanks for the thought out post barbender. Yeah what I see is past 6,000 hours of 3-4 years is all a gamble. 

The guys with 8 wheelers I know. won't even buy a new one without tracks. 

[Ken]

My 8 wheel Buffalo has a little better than 11k hours and I run tracks on all tires.  Makes for a smooth ride with minimal ground disturbance.  I had a 6 WD Timberjack which was a great machine but certainly rougher on the operator.  I also crawl through the bush slow with my machine.  Easier on the machine and me.

[barbender]

As I get more seat time in this 6 wheel Ponsse Wisent I'll have more of an opinion on it, no doubt😊

[Skeans1]

@Firewoodjoe 
What is this machine going to be used for mostly thinning or clear cutting?

What are the requirements for compaction or disturbance of the soils? 

[Firewoodjoe]

As I get more seat time in this 6 wheel Ponsse Wisent I'll have more of an opinion on it, no doubt😊

Really  I was just looking at a used wisent online. Lots of hours but wondering if they hold two bunks of tens. I'm the pic it looked like it did. 

[Firewoodjoe]

@Firewoodjoe
What is this machine going to be used for mostly thinning or clear cutting?

What are the requirements for compaction or disturbance of the soils?

I want it able to do hardwood thinnings. With that being said the jobs I cut the mill has had everything on them. Small to big. We can work most thinnings except row pine. Which I don't really care about. The mill dont but much of that. And boring anyways. Rut restrictions yes but I've never had a problem even with 4 wheelers. Laying brush matt and moving around seems to keep most foresters happy. I want it under 10 foot. And close to 200hp and hold two bunks of tens. That's it. I feel like I want a 6 wheeler. Lots of guys swear by them here. (Deere's) and it's one less boggie in the future. Most jobs I can get away with just chains on the front. No tracks. Guys here do it. But not possible with an 8 wheeler. Tracks are a must. But as usual money and condition is the biggest problem. I want one with low hours but not new price and that's not looking good. So maybe one with some engine and bogie paper work🤷‍♂️ I have time.  I'm not rushing it. I bought this valmet in some what of a rush and it's a good machine. But it's what I expected. I don't feel like I got the improvement I wanted going from a single bunk. It's is dont get me wrong but not enough.  

[Firewoodjoe]

FYI the mill has five 8 wheelers. All ponsse. So I have an idea about them. There good. If tracked up. But also all the dealers are in one town except Deere. And they are closest to me.

[barbender]

You could move the bunks around to get two rows of 10's on a Wisent, maybe. It would be tight. I've been skidding 9' and 8' with this one and putting the 9' in front.

[Firewoodjoe]

I see. How does it steer with a load like that? 5 cord? What age is it? 

[Skeans1]

@Firewoodjoe
What is this machine going to be used for mostly thinning or clear cutting?

What are the requirements for compaction or disturbance of the soils?

I want it able to do hardwood thinnings. With that being said the jobs I cut the mill has had everything on them. Small to big. We can work most thinnings except row pine. Which I don't really care about. The mill dont but much of that. And boring anyways. Rut restrictions yes but I've never had a problem even with 4 wheelers. Laying brush matt and moving around seems to keep most foresters happy. I want it under 10 foot. And close to 200hp and hold two bunks of tens. That's it. I feel like I want a 6 wheeler. Lots of guys swear by them here. (Deere's) and it's one less boggie in the future. Most jobs I can get away with just chains on the front. No tracks. Guys here do it. But not possible with an 8 wheeler. Tracks are a must. But as usual money and condition is the biggest problem. I want one with low hours but not new price and that's not looking good. So maybe one with some engine and bogie paper work🤷‍♂️ I have time.  I'm not rushing it. I bought this valmet in some what of a rush and it's a good machine. But it's what I expected. I don't feel like I got the improvement I wanted going from a single bunk. It's is dont get me wrong but not enough.  

We use to run a single set of chains on the front of the 1210's then two sets later before going to full tracks. As far as 6 vs 8 there's a lot of places a 6 won't come out here because of the single wheel up front, we have bogie lifts and use them a decent amount. As far as the lengths ours you couldn't do the dual 10's it's the old 16' bed unless you built an extension like I have. Tracks have some big advantages they're easier to take care of they're less likely to find a casing and they're quick on and off. As far as how big of a difference it is for a large vs medium vs small forwarder well if you don't have the bunks widened out you aren't really taking in a whole lot more wood vs a medium machine other then faster with the tire size making the difference. One thing I would worry about packing a lot of weight on the back is what kind of center bearing is being used as well how wear is on it from that. 

[barbender]

It steers fine, yeah I'm guessing 4.5-5 cords. I'm not sure what year it is, around 08 or 09 I'd say?

The frame length on even a Buffalo is not conducive to what you are after (2 rows of 10's). The BuffaloKing I was in could haul 2 ranks of 10's, but honestly we don't move that much 10'. If you have the sliding rear bunk, you could stretch it out and adjust the other bunks for the 10' but it may not be very balanced. 10 footers are actually kind of a challenge🤷‍♂️

[nativewolf]

Our elephant does 2 10' but is more machine than you seem to want.  Like @skeans1 I would be worried about causing damage to the center.  

You have an 646?  Did you look at the 846?  

[Firewoodjoe]

It steers fine, yeah I'm guessing 4.5-5 cords. I'm not sure what year it is, around 08 or 09 I'd say?

The frame length on even a Buffalo is not conducive to what you are after (2 rows of 10's). The BuffaloKing I was in could haul 2 ranks of 10's, but honestly we don't move that much 10'. If you have the sliding rear bunk, you could stretch it out and adjust the other bunks for the 10' but it may not be very balanced. 10 footers are actually kind of a challenge🤷‍♂️

Right. I knew the Buffalo it don't work well. They do have a sliding rear bunk but not really work well. Prolly like the wisent. Well it's a Deere then. They make three frame sizes. 1010 and bigger can all hold two 10s. Guys here put 6-7 cord on them. (Flat ground)

[Firewoodjoe]

Our elephant does 2 10' but is more machine than you seem to want.  Like @skeans1 I would be worried about causing damage to the center.  

You have an 646?  Did you look at the 846?  

Never heard of a 846. I wouldn't mind an elephant but I do think it's to wide. Although. Guys run the king here. And I believe that what's that is. Buffalo front and elephant back. 

[Firewoodjoe]

It steers fine, yeah I'm guessing 4.5-5 cords. I'm not sure what year it is, around 08 or 09 I'd say?

The frame length on even a Buffalo is not conducive to what you are after (2 rows of 10's). The BuffaloKing I was in could haul 2 ranks of 10's, but honestly we don't move that much 10'. If you have the sliding rear bunk, you could stretch it out and adjust the other bunks for the 10' but it may not be very balanced. 10 footers are actually kind of a challenge🤷‍♂️

Right. I knew the Buffalo it don't work well. They do have a sliding rear bunk but not really work well. Prolly like the wisent. Well it's a Deere then. They make three frame sizes. 1010 and bigger can all hold two 10s. Guys here put 6-7 cord on them. (Flat ground)

E's and newer that is. 

[nativewolf]

Nothing wrong with the JD forwarders.  Cabs are a bit tighter, our elephant lets me carry 2 passengers in the cab which is nice if giving tours.  Our valmet was a nice cab, basic but nice enough.  

The elephant can carry the wood out but man...shipping it sucks.  At least here in VA.  Very wide and over height.  The overheight and length and width makes it hard to get a lowboy as we don't have many with deep long wells here.  It's why we road them if possible.

[Firewoodjoe]

I stopped at the dealer this morning. It would have to be an E. All the ones there I measured and they hold tens on front bunk. The D they had wouldn't. But a good shape E is a lot of money 😳

[chevytaHOE5674]

Carrying a full double bunk of 10s in hardwood you are running on the edge of weight capacity of a Buffalo size machine really.

Packing every stick of wood on machine humanly possible sounds good but it does the center section no favors. 

[Firewoodjoe]

I can only put on 2.5 cord of tens. 12 ton forwarder can haul 4-4.5 cord per manufacture spec. I wouldn't say two bunks of tens is over loading it. I guess if a guy put 6 foot tall stakes on one bunk you could reach that. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

We used to run full double bunk loads of 10s, 12s, 14s, and 16s spliced in there. Heap them up over top of the stakes and hold them down with the loader. My boss also tore the center section out of 2 Buffalos and they needed major weld surgery to keep them going.

[Firewoodjoe]

That sounds like more than 4-5 cord. And yeah. I'm not buying a Buffalo. There very popular but frames break on them to. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Frames break on all of them with enough use and abuse. I've watched a JD 1210 break, and seen a broke Valmet, and a broke Rottne all around the center section. All guys cutting hardwood and routinely piling the lots of logs on the machine and running up and down hills and valleys where the machine sees the most stress.

We could get 6 cord on a heaped load. Filled many a michigan double with 3~3.5 forwarder loads....