Athena's chairs

[mesquite buckeye]

Just looking through my old photos and found this one of a kitchen table I made for my daughter in 2008. She has been bugging me for a while now for the chairs. Guess it is time to get them made.


The table 2008 American elm


 



An 8/4 piece of curvy grained Am elm marked for the back chair legs.


 


Closeup to show grain following curve of legs


 

I'll keep you up to date as it progresses.

[Lud]

What type of chair are you planning?   I've been building chairs this Spring.  7 of 10 are done and started last week on the final 3.

Make the joints strong!  Chairs get abused by their usage. 8)

[Axe Handle Hound]

Mesquite- is that table top a lamination of two layers of boards or is there a profile routed on that edge that makes it look that way?  Looks stout and being made of elm it should still be around in another 100 years.  I'm interested to see what the matching chairs will look like. 

[mesquite buckeye]

What type of chair are you planning?   I've been building chairs this Spring.  7 of 10 are done and started last week on the final 3.

Make the joints strong!  Chairs get abused by their usage. 8)

Regular old chair that sort of matches the table. I plan to make them solid.

[mesquite buckeye]

Mesquite- is that table top a lamination of two layers of boards or is there a profile routed on that edge that makes it look that way?  Looks stout and being made of elm it should still be around in another 100 years.  I'm interested to see what the matching chairs will look like.

Yes, I had to laminate 2 layers to get a thick enough top to look nice. Started with 1" lumber, but it was so pretzeley that by the time it was flat, it was only about 5/8" thick, so I made another top and glued them up.  Quite a job, lots of 2 X 4 cauls and clamps, but it worked.

I wanted to do 3" legs on the table, but Athena insisted on full 4" finished legs. The table is very heavy, two guys have to work hard to move it, but you don't have to worry about the table wiggling when you put your elbows on it. It is rock solid.

We are hoping her great-great grandchildren can still use it.

[mesquite buckeye]

Cutting out the legs today. The leg template to the left courtesy of algore's hockey stick climate model.

 


Legs rough cut out oversize to correct for defects in the lumber and warp. Here they are jointed flat on one side and ready to plane parallel.

 


Jointed and planed, ready to remark for final cutting.


 

[mesquite buckeye]

Front legs jointed and planed. Back legs roughed out a little tighter. ;D

 

[mesquite buckeye]

Backstraps cut and jointed one side.

 

[mesquite buckeye]

By the time I got the backstraps flattened, they were down to just over an inch thick, too thin to cut a curved back, and since I don't want to start setting up a steam bending setup, I laminated the backstraps with some more material. Ended up with 2" thick planed flat.


 
Shown here squared, planed, and milled to width (3 1/2").

Next, I have to get the seat boards made. here they are shown rough cut and flattened on one side for planing. I will have to laminate and edge glue these, like the table top. No problem, that will make it match better.


 

Hopefully, this will be more interesting when the pieces start to come together.

Still have to cut out the seat rails.

For those of you who haven't used elm, the sawdust is a bunch of tiny needles, a bit irritating. ;D 8)

[mesquite buckeye]

Hey, Lud: Did you post pictures of your chairs on the forum? I would love to see them.

Today, I started to glueup the seat boards. Two clamping directions and two layers. Here is how I do it.

 
This is the bottom layer. I forgot the wax paper to protect the cauls, had to put it in after glue on edges. Note to self....
Also, I had to rearrange the boards to make sure the interior board edges don't line up on the two layers. Really important to dry assemble before starting to have a chance to get everything together correctly.

 
Here it is all glued up and clamped up. Took a little rubber hammer tapping to get it all good.

More later.

[Texas Ranger]

We of the older generation had to learn things through repetition, and error, I wonder how much better a craftsman I would be had I had this type of instruction 50 years ago?

:P

[mesquite buckeye]

My dad had to figure everything out himself and had very limited tools. That limited how good he could get. I was fortunate enough to learn the basics from him and vowed to get the tools I needed to do the job right. Being able to actually have a true and straight board off a good jointer the first time is like magic if you never saw it before. Makes everything so much easier.

Used to be you could just look things up in books, and unless you really stretched, the projects were generally simple. The woodworking magazines are a wonderful addition. I particularly enjoy the technical, how to make the most of your tools and tricks of the trade offered in Fine Woodworking. Now, we have youtube, video instruction, internet searches for questions.

And of course, here is the forestry forum.

I especially love to see all the guys' work who do the whole thing from growing and harvesting the trees, making the lumber, then turning that lumber into something useful and beautiful that honors the life of the tree that the object came from.

[mesquite buckeye]

Here is how the two layers are set up to keep the edges of two layers from lining up inside the glueups.

 

[WmFritz]

For those of you who haven't used elm, the sawdust is a bunch of tiny needles, a bit irritating. ;D 8)

I thought it interesting that you mention this. My SIL cut a large amount of elm for firewood and found out he's allergic to it. To the point he doesn't want to even handle it. He gets asthma like symptoms from it and wants me to take it just to get rid of it.

Thanks for the photos and allowing us to be part of the project from home. ;)

[mesquite buckeye]

Actually, it finishes up really nice, lots of chatoyance. Mesquite and ironwood are both big asthma inducers out here.

and you are welcome. ;D

[Lud]

Hey Mesquite,   Lud here.. the chairs I built this Spring are a Sam Maloof Low Back Dining Chair.   Real strong joints and very comfortable.  Folks are sitting around in them long after the eating is done.  I kept increasing the carved seat depth in the latter seats so we can accomodate the flat bottomed and round bottomed guests both. ;D

I found it and tried to put in the link below?

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,64964.0.html

I don't seem to be doing it like others do.........  the thread was "Best way to get Ash to look like Walnut" and it's on pg. 3 here in General Woodworking.

I strongly recommend  finding  good, replacable sliders for the legs as that will reduce stress.  I predrilled the legs for the nail and drilled a shallow diameter for the rubber washer on the sliders I got from the box store.  They'll be easy to pry out when they wear out and need replacing.

Good luck on your project!

[mesquite buckeye]

Wow, super nice chairs, Lud. Mine won't be nearly  as fancy.  ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Working on chairs again, looking for some figure for the back slats. There will be two in each chair. Here is the layout on another piece of the same tree, 4/4. Pretty crooked, hope to get somewhere between 3/8 and 1/2 finished.

 

I try to cut the pieces as large as I can without wasting wood so I can adjust for the best looking piece hiding inside the board. Here are the oversize pieces cut out, jointed flat one side and one edge and ready to go to the planer. Have to play a lot with feed angles, this wood loves to tear out where there is interesting figure. Also likes to plug up my dust control system with all the curly Q chips.

 

Ended up 5/8" thick after getting them all flat. That will work.

More later.

[mesquite buckeye]

Now marking out the seat skirt boards. Trying to find fairly straight grain or a little arch to the top (prestressed). Took a little juggling to get the most out of my admittedly kind of funky lumber (The skirt boards are two lengths.).

 


Knots bad. Going around them good. ;D 8) 8) 8)

 

[jamesamd]

Very interesting,keep um coming!

Jim

[mesquite buckeye]

No problemo. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Starting to clean up the glued up seats. Thought I would detail it out for those who don't already have these things in their bag of tricks. Nothing fancy here, but when I started out making the two layer glueups, it is almost impossible to both get it all tight and not have the layers shift and rotate a bit.

The first thing I needed to do is get a good parallel with one of the top side board edges. They start out looking something like this.

 


I run a snap line parallel to the board edge and inside enough that it won't try to bounce off the blade and give me a crooked cut.

 

I cut this freehand as best I can.

 


Here is a closeup of the edge ready to be jointed. What looks like a pretty straight cut is actually pretty crooked.

  

 

After it is jointed, it looks like this on a flat surface.

 


This is what the cleaned up edge looks like.

 
Pretty nice.

Next, I used the trued up edge to cut one end after marking square cut lines. These are not final, just to see how well the cuts are going.

  

 
That's it cut.


Then I use the fence to make the opposite edge parallel to the first squared one.

 



Then joint that edge to true up the saw ripples.

 


Then the other end is cut square.

 


And there we are, all nice and straight and trimmed, ready for more design work to start the fitting process.

 


I'll post more as it goes along. ;D

[Lud]

I'm assuming you're not going to keep the seats flat..........what's your plan? ???

[mesquite buckeye]

This thing is definitely a design and tweak as you go deal. I have a pretty good idea of the finished shape and construction, but there is a lot of fitting and structural design still left. I just made everything with some extra strength and some cutting slop so when it goes together, I can make it work. This is definitely prototype stuff without a complete pattern.

Athena wants the seats hollowed out to make them more comfortable. I got a lancealot blade for the angle grinder, thinking it would be easier than chiseling, or trying to hollow adze it out. The cross grain is a bit of a pain to deal with, but that is also why it is pretty. The elm really likes to tear out if it gets any kind of depth of cut, or cuts into descending grain.

Also, the seat is still oversize at around 18 1/2 X 19 inches, so I can trim some of  the cruddy, uneven or ugly spots out of the seat blanks. I still need to work out the front to back dimension so that it is comfortable for most people. We get so used to having a one size fits all society, it is easy to forget that the ideal chair fits the person who will use it. That is a thought......

That would take the you're sitting in my chair thing to a whole new level.

Hey Lud, what are these sliders you are talking about? Got a photo?

I'm thinking of combining an interlocking tenon with a foxtail wedge blind tenon to lock up the skirt to the legs just for fun. I haven't ever done it, so everyone will see how it goes or doesn't go. A challenge at the least. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Back at it, trying to get one at least close to ready by Christmas (this year).

Here is the layout for the curved back straps. Making a template to mark up the pieces. Turns out that I will have to glue the cutoffs from the front to the back side to get the thickness and curvature I want. The outside radius is 21". The finished straps will have about 16 1/2" showing. I'm going to try to make them so the front edge of the backstraps is flush with the finished back leg stiles to make it more comfortable. This is a lot more work than I bargained for, but every stage I work through improves my skills. ;D


 

[ancjr]

I made a jig just for nibbling the edge of rough boards or panels.  It only removes  about 1/32 a pass, but it seems easier and maybe a bit safer when you need to "whittle" an edge down in prep for jointing or final rip cut.  :)

[mesquite buckeye]

Template is done.

 




 
Here it is in place on a backstrap blank.

Now comes the hard part. Finish layout and cutting with a bowsaw.

[mesquite buckeye]

Here is a backstrap blank all marked up for cutting. ;D

 

I'll let you know how the cutting goes.

[Lud]

In reply to your question, by "Slider" I'm talking about the nail on Glides for the ends of the legs.  I went and looked at the packaging and that's the real name.  The ones I first used were domed shaped from Lowes and the big ones on the back legs are fine but the smaller ones on the front legs had cracked so I've replaced with a different brand of uniform thickness.

When I carved seats with the lancelot that were going to be 5/8" deep , I drilled  maybe half inch deep holes on the 4 corners of the back central area where the hips rest, (in from the seat edge, of course).  And maybe 3/8"  where the thighs rest coming to the front of the chair.

That way you have a guide to feather down to as the chainsaw disc is an intense tool.  I think I tended to work  counter clockwise  on the seat blank and from high to low.  It works pretty fast hogging out material.  Stout gloves can save you.

I'd then use carbide discs to soften the chainsaw marks and thereafter a 35 grit grinding disc which became a favorite shaping tool before I'd work up through the normal sanding procession.

I'd also suggest some nice , bright lighting so you can see your progress for best results.  Hopefully you'll have substantial ventilation as it can be pretty dusty. 8)

[mesquite buckeye]

Thanks for the follow up, Lud. I'm thinking I can use the reverse of what is used in lapidary to produce cabachons in stone. I'm thinking if I carve out the rough form in a narrow or a few narrow bands, then I can just hog out between them to make my rough finish. They make these sanding discs for angle grinders that look kind of like overlapping shingles, and they make some pretty coarse ones. I'm thinking these would do an OK job of smoothing out the chainsaw marks. I've used them before for cleaning up some split log benches out of mesquite, where they worked very well. I'll keep you updated as I progress. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

The Christmas Rush: obviously not done yet.  :-[  Argh.

Working on getting all the pieces to their finished form.


 
Here I am working on rough fitting layout. All the pieces for the prototype chair are there, only still need to cut out the curved backs and relaminate them, then recut the last curve.


 

Looks like a good thing I haven't cut out the curved backs yet. They are too long. I will leave the curve the same, but they need to be shorter. I'll just wait to cut the tenons until the rest of the fitting has happened.


 

Maybe I will have one close by New Year's Day. My lovely wife needs a bathroom sink vanity from some Missouri walnut. I'll let you see that one as it goes too. It is already started. Neat, curved front. There is a first time for everything, no? ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

I made a jig just for nibbling the edge of rough boards or panels.  It only removes  about 1/32 a pass, but it seems easier and maybe a bit safer when you need to "whittle" an edge down in prep for jointing or final rip cut. 

So, like, dude, where's the photo of this cool jig? ??? ??? ??? ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

The store is still open on Christmas day. Fitting and figgerin'. ;D

I decided to inset the legs 5/8" from the chair edge. Here are the marks.

 


Next, I had to layout to cut in the back legs/stiles. Here the leg is clamped to the edge of the seat for marking.

 

The outside edge of the stile has to line up with the 5/8 line and be square with the chair rails.

  

 

Marking the cut line.

 


Measuring the stile thickness for inset depth.

 

After adding 5/8" for the leg inset, the seat is marked.

  

 

The front line is just a square out from the leg edge line.

 


The bevel measures the angle from the leg line on the edge of the seat and transfers the angle to the other side of the seat.

  

 


All marked up for cutting.

 


First inset rough cut. Leaving room to get a clean finish line.

 


Cutting out the second inset.

 


Cut out. I tried to use a couple of different block planes, but couldn't get enough force on them to clean up the ends with any control, so I resorted to chisel and mallet to get er done. Elm cuts hard, with cross grain and very tough end grain, it took pretty hard blows on the chisel to get anywhere, but it did work. I finished the cleanup with 100 grit sandpaper. It looks a little rough here, but where it shows is pretty clean. It will work.

 


With a little stacking and shimming, combined with the clamp, I was able to check the fit.

 


Love it when a plan works. ;D  Oh yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Magicman]

This project just keeps getting better.   

[mesquite buckeye]

Thanks, Magic. ;D

[clww]

Impressive craftsmanship you're performing!
I enjoy following this thread. :P

[mesquite buckeye]

You are very kind.  I'm not that good. Just patient. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Cut the first backstrap. Argh.

Started with the little bowsaw. Took 15 minutes of struggle just to cut the safe straight part. I may be patient, but 3 hours to cut out one chair back is a bit much.

Plan B is to put the longest blade I can find on my jigsaw. This resulted in some blowout problems on the bottom of the cut as the blade is about 3/8" too short to go all the way through. Here is the blowout.

  

 

First hint that it is a problem is the saw starts fighting you and jumping. I found that if I went about 1/2 - 1" forward at a time and then cut bottom up until it starts to resist the other way, the problem disappears. I think I could go to maybe 6-7" depth in this way without a problem. Add to bag of tricks. ;D

I will have to fix the blowouts. Some I can fix with glue and clamps, some with sanding down to the finish line. The big chunk will need a chip glued in. I'll put it on the bottom facing down to hide it. ;D

Here is the rough cut back strap cut and glued up. Even with edge clamping, there is some shifting and rotation during the glueup. I may lose 1/16" to true it up. No big deal, just have to do both the same on the other one. Good reason to leave plenty of wood for when you screw up. :-[ ;D

 

Now, back at it. ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Working out issues. By the way, I love my oscillating sander. One of the best tools I ever got. Had to buy it twice. the first one smoked out almost instantly. Exchanged it. This one, same model has been in fairly heavy use for a couple of years now. No problems.

 
With the 36 grit I can hog off a lot of material down real close to the line without messing it up like you can with a saw.

Here is the glued up trued up backstrap ready to be recut on the back side.

 
note there is a lot of slop for cutting errors. The jigsaw has issues with a perfect, straight cut into thick material. The effect is accentuated when the tip of the blade is pounding the bottom of the cut because the blade is too short. Deflection is also a problem on any angle cuts close to being parallel to the grain. If I leave an extra 1/8" past the line, it is safer. Then just sand down to the line.

Here is the damage from the blowout. Also, to the right, you  can see where the blade was pounding the bottom and deflected into the finished piece. 

 
This damage was concealed by a flap of wood that was left from the cutting. This is how it looks after considerable sanding. Still ugly.

Fortunately, there was some room on the back of the strap, so I just erased my lines and put down the template as close to the back as I could and remarked the piece. Back to the sander.....

 


This is what it looked like after. Almost disappeared it.  ;D What is left will sand out. Also shrunk the blowout hole.

 
That is what is left of the ugly on the right. Looks like a faint line.


Here is the rough finished backstrap. ;D One more to go. Now that I know what not to do it will be easier. ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

 

Cool.

[mesquite buckeye]

Here is the second backstrap cut out and ready to glue. No blowouts and no cuts through the finish line. ;D

Live and learn. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[ancjr]

I made a jig just for nibbling the edge of rough boards or panels.  It only removes  about 1/32 a pass, but it seems easier and maybe a bit safer when you need to "whittle" an edge down in prep for jointing or final rip cut.  :)

So, like, dude, where's the photo of this cool jig? ??? ??? ??? ;D

Here!



I'm going to make a thread that gives full details.  That way I can answer questions and give more photos.  :)

[mesquite buckeye]

Cool. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[mesquite buckeye]

Second backstrap shaped. ;D

Now on to  fitting. Turns out the backstraps are way too long. No problem, just cut them to the right length. Fortunately, they are exactly as wide as the full seat, so all I have to do is center and align them and I have my width from the seat cut ins.

  

  

 

Now all I have to do is get a perpendicular to the inside end of that line, which is the width of the visible part of the back then decide how long to make the tenons and make those.

[Busy Beaver Lumber]

This has to be one of the most interesting and best documented builds i have seen on this forum. Well done and hats off to you Mesquite Buckeye 8)

[mesquite buckeye]

You are very kind. ;D ;D ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

Continuing to work on the backstrap layout.

 

You can start to see the chair taking shape. To keep it simple I'm making it all square, so the backstraps and the seat front and back skirt are all the same length. Here the backstraps are trimmed square and 2" longer than the distance between the inside of the stiles. That will give me 1" tenons going into 1 3/4" thick stiles. I'm going to make the tenons 1/2" thick and probably shave in the ends 1/8" just to keep it all clean. The front of the curve will be flush with the front of the stile so no bumpy edges on the back. Same deal with the back slats, which I will lay out once these backstraps are fitted.

Here are the backstraps cut to finished length + tenons.

 

Here is the 1" tenon mark and the square off for final tenon marking.

 

Here are the squared off straps ready for marking, matched to each other.

  


Tenons marked for final cutting. 1/2" backset, 1/2" thick.

 

That will put it just a bit to the front of center in the stiles. I'm thinking of building foxtail blind joints here, so they won't come apart too soon. ;D
 

[mesquite buckeye]

Backstrap tenons rough cut.

 

;D

[54Dutchman]

Good project 8) 8) Elm being the most common tree that is lumber size in my area - this project really has my interest. ;)

[mesquite buckeye]

 ;D

[Lud]

I won't second guess your strategy and I do like the look of the big tenon on the backstrap  but I'm not sure that's where the major stress will occur in the chair.  It's my opinion that the major stress comes where the legs hook into the seat.  The legs grab the floor and our weight leverages through the seat to stress that joint.

There's nothing wrong with drilling and setting some 3"+ screws to permanently / mechanically attach legs.  If you start with a half inch hole and drill pilot and shaft holes , it will only make it stronger...and you can plug with the grain and will be hard pressed to see it.  The ten chairs I built each have 16 screws and are as stiff as you could ask.

Great work! 8)

[mesquite buckeye]

I'm hoping that the extra strong tenons on the back will help to resist lateral racking at the seat level. The lateral tenon on the seat has to be a bit shorter than the front to back one, so we shall see. I figure you can't make it weaker if it is heavier. Just heavier. ;D

I worry about screws working out as the chair wiggles over time. I may put corner blocks with screws as a backup strengthener.

Thanks again for your thoughts, Lud.

[mesquite buckeye]

Backstrap tenons 1st cleanup. Love my Stanley 92. Guess I got one of the good ones. ;D

 

[Lud]

I failed to mention that I dipped the screw threads in Titebond III before the impact driver ran them in.   Then the plug dipped and driven in gives the sunken head no room to move.  About as rock solid as one can get.

There is a reason bone docs use them .....

Not second guessing like I said before.  Cheers!

[mesquite buckeye]

I'm thinking corner blocking and screws there.

Your method may work fine. I have had to fix so many old chairs where the screws have wiggled loose or stripped that I am not trusting. Of course I have seen tenons made too small and dowels do the same thing. I'm hoping if I build it like an aircraft carrier it will last longer than the ones I have had to fix or toss. ;D

Lud- Just a question. Are all yours holding so far?

[ancjr]

Ancient furniture secret: dry tenons and pegs, green mortices.

I cheat by using expanding polyurethane adhesive from a caulk tube (not the honey colored stuff in the squeeze bottles) but, I also don't build many nice things like chairs, either.  :D

[mesquite buckeye]

That could work. But you better use a well behaved wood that doesn't twerk. ;D ;D ;D

[ancjr]

Good point with Elm.  Mine grew with a corkscrew form as a warning!  :)

[Lud]

MB,  Yes, absolutely all Screws are holding.  I'd set up 3 different drills and the impact so I could drill the plug hole, the countersink and shaft hole and the pilot hole down to 3/4 depth.  I want the tip to fully grab as it seats and the glue to work as lubricant and then set up filling any voids and adhere the screw fully.

They were 3" deck screws with two screws to each leg  burying into the seat through the dado/tenon rabbeted joint.  The seat was rabbeted to increase glue surface without sacrificing leg mass.  Heck of a joint.



 

3 screws into the backrest thru the back leg and 1 screw down into the center of the top of the arm thru the back leg .  A dowel joins the front of the arm to the top of the front leg.

Been in our house for 7 months, lots of use  by big and small folks and not a single wiggle to date.  All credit to TB III and the 6% ash.

[mesquite buckeye]

I like your method. The screw would have to break or strip out to fail. ;D

[lowpolyjoe]

Wow, what a great project thread!

You're doing all the curved cuts with a jigsaw?  I thought i was the only person on this forum without a bandsaw  :D.   

[mesquite buckeye]

Yep. And it is very not fun. There is almost always a work around when you don't have the perfect tool.

Just think of the things made by guys with nothing more than a saw, plane, chisel and a hammer. Just got to be better to make it really nice.

[mesquite buckeye]

MB,  Yes, absolutely all Screws are holding.  I'd set up 3 different drills and the impact so I could drill the plug hole, the countersink and shaft hole and the pilot hole down to 3/4 depth.  I want the tip to fully grab as it seats and the glue to work as lubricant and then set up filling any voids and adhere the screw fully.

They were 3" deck screws with two screws to each leg  burying into the seat through the dado/tenon rabbeted joint.  The seat was rabbeted to increase glue surface without sacrificing leg mass.  Heck of a joint.



 

3 screws into the backrest thru the back leg and 1 screw down into the center of the top of the arm thru the back leg .  A dowel joins the front of the arm to the top of the front leg.

Been in our house for 7 months, lots of use  by big and small folks and not a single wiggle to date.  All credit to TB III and the 6% ash.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but I can see you also gain a lot of strength and rigidity from the arms and back, the way they are laid out.

Athena's will have all the force concentrated at the back leg area. We will find out if I made it strong enough. :-\

[Lud]

I'm sure it's going to work out fine with your quality of work and patience.  If you choose to bury some screws into the joints for permanent, mechanical connection with sandable plugs to make them invisable to non woodworkers, you want to do it as the joint glue is setting up.  I observed instances where the screw compression tightened up the joint  more than the clamps resulting in a bit of squeeze out for proof.  Tighter the joint the stronger the joint, eh?

And good glides on the legs reduces stress on the chair .  My chairs are heavy but the ladies slide  them around with ease because of the glides.

I do agree with your comment that back legs get the most stress from human weight yet with more connections top and middle I imagine it spreads the forces throughout the chair's structure.  I think that's the purpose of cross bracing underneath in Windsors and others that are more lightly constructed.

Hope this helps. ;)

[mesquite buckeye]

Your posts are always helpful.  ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)