Headers and Trimmers for stairs

[Jpd]

Greetings all

I am continuing to make progress on my 30x40 bank barn.  Engineering is mostly complete, a few small changes to beam sizes but I was pretty close in my first go-around.  The engineer won't do my design, he is just checking for engineering strength etc.  I need to design my headers and trimmers for the stairs.  I have searched the forum and have not found any information about this area.

In the following screenshot, It is my first draft of placing headers and trimmers in my quarter turn stairs.  It is not complete, but I was wondering if any of you have thoughts about this.  Specifically, I have highlighted three areas in red that could use some thought.  

The header and trimmer joist joints- what is an acceptable joint to accomplish this?  On the left side, there are identical loft stairs directly in line and above these stairs.  I am assuming I need a beam across to the sill for those.  

In the middle, should the post be continuous from the slab footing to the loft, and the beams let in to the post?   Or should the joists join, and the post be discontinuous?  

And on the right, I am adjusting the tread width to hopefully meet the existing next joist, so there will only need to be a header there.  

This frame is mostly traditional, no steel as of yet, and I am not opposed to fasteners like bolts or timberlok, if needed.  

Thanks for your consideration.  

JP

[Coastallogger]

I don't know the answer to your question but have you checked you won't bump your head on the way up? I have a house where they didn't check and boy, those bumps will shatter a disk and for some reason I need a quarterly reminder. 

[Jpd]

Coastallogger

I have pretty much only ever lived in old houses where this is the norm...  I'm 6'2 and even in wide open stairs, i'm conditioned to duck for cover...

Code allows 6'8, I'm just slightly over that.

[Jpd]

Ok, here's a new wrinkle and a few screenshots to illustrate:

Thinking ahead to assembly, I'll assemble sills and first floor, then raise the bents, then loft joists and flooring.  Would be very difficult if not impossible with a ~20 foot tall post off in one corner.  So, how would you guys approach these problem joints with a discontinuous post?  

[Jpd]

280 views, nobody has run into this situation?

Here are some proposed joints that ill run by the engineer... Please feel free to comment.   Drawn are timberlok screws, but open to other ideas. 

[Jpd]

400 views, nobody has ever had to frame for quarter turn stairs?

I have satisfied the post issue, with the attached image.  Discontinuous between floors is not an issue, making an elegant connection isn't easy but this joint with timberlok screws makes the engineer happy:


For the other part of the question, What is an appropriate joint to join the 6x10 header to the 6x10 trimmer?  Jim?  Don P?  I have scoured the internet and all of my books, have not found any help.

anyone feel free to chime in!

[Don P]

For myself I am following along lightly. You do have an engineer on the job, which is good to see.

[Jpd]

I have to say, I am very disappointed in this site.  almost 600 views on this thread, and not a single useful response.  I have figured out the problem and cleared it with the engineer.  I was hoping for more from you guys, even just a little kernel to work with. I'm tempted to ask to delete my membership, I'll leave that up to the moderators, but as a new member with a few different posts, I feel disappointed in the lack of input.

[Old Greenhorn]

You are going to think I am a smart alec but I think you are calling the kettle black here. I just read every post you have put up and there is not one where I read you offering advice or helping someone else out, yet you are critical of everyone here for not giving you an answer to your specific need. I also noticed that you got plenty of help with your other questions. Perhaps nobody feels confident or has experience with that particular issue?

 I think perhaps you are right and should demand all your fees paid out to be a member here should be promptly refunded. Oh Wait.....

[Jpd]

thanks, old greenhorn.  Being my first timber frame, I am not qualified to give advice.  That's why I joined, to LEARN.  As far as I know, there is not a quid pro quo requirement to trade question for answer on here.  

Jim Rogers, please delete my account, I will no longer participate. 

Thank you all for the help on my previous posts, I think Old Greenhorn makes it clear this is not the forum for me.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well there was some sarcasm implied in my post and I am sorry you are leaving, but although there is no quid pro quo as you say, it is considered both polite and educational to participate in other threads and ask questions there to foster our learning. There is also not 'requirement' to supply answers in any event. So your demand for answers is, at best, rude, and at worst offensive. I rarely say things like this, but in your case, I perhaps felt obligated to do so.
 As Jim gave you helpful advice in the past, you effectively insulted him and others for not doing so on this point.That's a trigger for me, sorry.

[Don P]

Your call.
For myself there is no malice intended, it sounded like a situation I didn't want to get into the middle of.  IMO you are further down the design path than internet chatter. That is my call ;

 Engineering is mostly complete, a few small changes to beam sizes but I was pretty close in my first go-around.  The engineer won't do my design, he is just checking for engineering strength etc. 

[Jpd]

Old greenhorn, 

I believe you are overreacting and misreading me.  Rude?  Offensive?  I came here for help and insight. For me to offer any help on anything other than color choice and where to plant the bushes would be inappropriate. 600 views and nobody else offered any help. Are you going to chase all of them down and bitch at them for not contributing to MY post?

Exactly how did I offend Jim et al for responding to my previous posts?  I am nothing but grateful for the help I have received, it has helped me progress in an area that I have not tread in before.  I certainly hope that nobody has been offended by my asking for help.  

Your perceived obligation to come at me for pleading for help comes off to me as rude and offensive. Internet commentary can be foggy, but you have made it clear to me that you, old greenhorn, are why I will not contribute here and share what I know, however relevant or insightful. 

I think you could have come at me differently, and maybe I would decide to stay and contribute. But instead you have accused me of being things that I am not. 

As I cannot find any way to delete my account, will one of the adult moderators be kind enough to do it for me.  I'm sorry this has devolved this way.

I have learned quite a lot from this forum, there are a lot of very helpful members. If anyone else has taken offense at my response here, I humbly apologize. But I ask you, put yourself in my shoes.  I have been a member for about six months, and this is the largest thing I have ever designed, by an order of magnitude. I was hoping to benefit from becoming part of this small community, but it is clear now that I am not needed here.

[Jim_Rogers]

I have to say, I am very disappointed in this site.  almost 600 views on this thread, and not a single useful response.  I have figured out the problem and cleared it with the engineer.  I was hoping for more from you guys, even just a little kernel to work with. I'm tempted to ask to delete my membership, I'll leave that up to the moderators, but as a new member with a few different posts, I feel disappointed in the lack of input.

There are usually many different ways to connect timbers. Without seeing the exact location of the timbers (in the entire frame) it is hard to say which way is best. You have your solution which was to have your engineer of record to design the joint and make it safe for you.
Good luck with your project.
Jim Rogers

[Old Greenhorn]

I am just one guy with one perception and I don't matter. I'll not get into this further with you and never bother you again about it. Feel free to stay or go as you please. There is no 'account deleting' here. I simply saw your repeated posting of how many read your post and that nobody gave you an answer you wanted and began taking that as a demand after several times. Sometimes people don't know, or can't offer a solution they are comfortable with so they don't. Sometimes not getting any suggestions is in itself an answer. Everybody has skills and knowledge in different areas. This forum is more about forestry related things than timber framing. It just happens that we also have a bunch of folks that are pretty good at it and some earn their living at it.
But there are other subjects here that perhaps sometime you might read and contribute to. It matters not. I wish you the best and you'll not hear from me anymore so you may do as you wish here.
I'm out.