Small Farm ?

[Wes]

 Now that I began raising these bull calves as oxen I started thinking , again.  

Since I have to feed and care for these guys daily and I have 12 acres, 7 of them pasture. Maybie I should get a fiew beefers too , not too many but enough to make a fiew extra bucks.

Ive noticed that a bunch of you folks are farming or raising some type of critters.and was wondering if it is a worth while venture or if any one has advice / Ideas of what else to raise or grow. ???  

Thanks,  Wes

[shopteacher]

Ya should grow some of the MaryJaWanna, my students tell me there's a very lucrative market there.   8)

[Larry]

Maybe a couple calves for the freezer as they are fun to raise but I wouldn't count on making any money.

[Wes]

I kinda thought that one would be one of the top suggestions ..that will have to wait untill I get a greenhouse built, the grow lamps use too much power in my basement ;)

I should have said legal. ;D

[DanG]

Wes, I'm thinkin' of putting in a few head, myself. I have an ulterior motive, though. ;D  I've always wanted some cows, but it hasn't been feasible until now. I recently learned that the local Farm Service Agency(FSA) has an assistance program around these parts. If I do the perimeter fencing, they will pay for the cross-fencing, and pay 50% of the cost for a well. 8)

Since the power line situation has forced us to relocate our planned new home, we will have to have a new well and some cross-fencing to isolate the house/yard from the pasture. Now, I can run cows on it until I start the house, then fence them away from it, as well as keeping the cows and horses separated. ;D

I bought 1000' of field wire and 100 T-posts today to get me started. This will do the west fence with a little left over. I'll buy another 1000' later to do the east fence, and use the leftovers to restore the north and south fences, which are still usable, with a little help.  Then I'll let the FSA do the cross-fencing and help with the well, and I'll be way ahead on getting the house under way. ;D

Now, back to your question.  It's expensive to keep cattle over the winter if you can't produce your own winter feed. You don't have enough land to graze in the summer and still cut hay, so that leaves you 2 options. You can buy stock in the spring, then sell them in the fall, at a higher weight, but probably at a lower price/lb. Or, you can raise hay in the summer, buy stock in the fall at a reduced price/lb, sell them in the spring at higher weight, AND higher price/lb. Another risk factor is reduced, this way, because you already know how much hay you have when you go to buy the cattle.  Now this ain't for everybody, and may not work out for you, but it seems like a good plan for me, since I already have the baling equipment.

BTW, my place is 20 acres. 4 on the west side of the road, and 16 acres of pasture on the east side. I'm figgering on reserving about 2 acres on the east side for the house and garden. The four acre side will be for the sawmill, and other business ventures. ;D

You might want to check with your county agent about any programs that might benefit you.

[Wes]

DanG,
Thanks, do you have any figures,ie..costs / profit ?
this is new to me.

Every time I start something new it leads to something else. ;D

[DanG]

I can't really give you any figures, since I haven't gotten that far into it, myself. I think you better think harder about the "cost" part, rather than the "profit" idea. :D :D  The way I see it, raising cattle is a bit like sawing lumber. You can get the job done, but making money at it takes a creative mind. You have to come up with ideas that suit your abilities, in order to enhance your chances to make a profit. "Value added" is a good way to improve your outlook. You could run a small "finishing" operation, where you put the final touches on a beef, then sell it to individuals for their freezer. You sell them a steer, or half steer, then deliver it to the slaughter house on the hoof, and they can pick up the meat, cut and wrapped for the freezer. You can probably sell a half this way, for about as much as you'd get for the whole steer at auction.

Another way is to raise "high-dollar" cows. Look at it this way; a $5,000 cow don't eat no more than a $500 cow. ;D  There are some very expensive breeds out there that can turn you a good profit on small acreage, IF you manage them right.

[Norm]

If we get the mad cow embargo lifted in the next few months it might not be a bad idea to have a couple of beef cows to raise. Having the pasture is great and seven acres of decent pasture is good for seven steers around here. Figure in some hay and grain this winter for costs.  Keep in mind that good fences will make for less headaches. If you don't have an existing fence a good electric one will keep most in.

Besides cows are a hoot, what other farm animal can run it's tounge all the way up it's nose. :D

[shopteacher]

Hey DanG, I thought you retired?

[DanG]

Nawww, Teech!  I ain't retired, I just changed jobs. :D  I was thoroughly warned about this, before I took the plunge, but I have less free time now than before.  I just have a different "driving force." ;D  I'm just enjoying having the time to make my ideas and resources come to life.  For instance, I saved a C-note by driving 40 miles west to buy my wire and posts. I shared the trip with a buddy, who needed some things over there, too. I also bought some tractor parts that weren't available anywhere else. That trip would have required burning a day off, before.

I'll tell y'all how to make $2,000/month from 12 cows, later. ;D

[Corley5]

We used to have beef cattle and selling them was the best thing we ever did.  We don't miss them a bit.  The whole place is now into hay production.  A few weeks work in the summer and the farming's over.  No pasture fences to repair, no cattle to babysit.  We can leave when we want without having to worry about someone watching them etc.  If you need to buy feed for them you're probably going to lose money.  If you can produce your own and have enough pasture you won't do too bad.  A friend and I figured it out a while back and according to our calculations we could buy a finished beef animal at the local auction and have it cut, wrapped and frozen for about $1,500.00.  To me that's better than having to feed and car for an animal until it's ready to kill.

[woodrat]

We raise sheep mostly for our own consumption, but have been getting inquiries from people looking for 'safe' meat. There is a huge and growing  demand for real food out there, its just a matter of trying to figure out how to tap into it (without running afoul of all the Agencies.) We also raised three pigs that are going to the butcher on Wednesday. We are selling halfs directly to friends for $3.00/# hanging weight and then they pay the butcher $.55/lb to cut and wrap. I haven't done the numbers yet, but it looks like we will come out pretty good even with having bought a lot of store bought feed. And more and more people are asking about meat and so I am thinking of renting pasture and expanding my sheep thing a little bit, and putting in a few more pigs next summer. I sure won't put them in my barn again though!

[isawlogs]

  I was able to convince my dad to get rid of some of the cattle a couple of years ago . He still has about 45 head between him and my uncle , A friend of his had this thought wichmade me  :D   * If you sell all your cattle you won't have the free beef in the fall..........
  That's like saying that if you have a forest you get free wood
We have both .. and I can assure that its not free , unless you don't count your time , gas ,fuel , machinery ,tools ... goobermint ,moonicypal, provincial,or the federallys, then I guess it wood be free.....
  I would like him to keep at the most 15 head (to keep him busy ) And we could continiue to manage the forest as we have always done .

[pigman]

Wes, I have a few cattle. They are almost proffitable at this time in the cattle cycle. On your small scale, selling frezzer beef to locals would be your best chance at making a little profit. If I could  sell pigs like woodrat is doing I would still be in the pig buisness. His $3 a pound pig carcass on the wholesale market is only worth about $.55 lb at this time.  ;D
If you have to buy much hay equipment it will eat up a lot of money fast.I have about 60k in hay equipment now. If you carry cattle through the winter it may be best to buy the feed you need. Cattle can be a lot of fun. 8) I had a cow chase me out of the field today, she didn't like me getting close to her new calf.
I would get some more cows but my wife only has two jobs, she can't support any more cows.
Bob the rancher

[Frickman]

Wes, if you are already tending to some animals, and have the room and feed, I say why not. You will never make anything selling the animals live, on the hoof at the auction, but if you can market some freezer beef locally you can do well. Maybe good enough to pay for keeping the others.

[redpowerd]

now is the time to buy weaned bulls. the last one we sold went for .12!

[Bro. Noble]

Raising animals on a mini-farm with the idea of showing a noticable profit is unlikely.  

If you want to do it,  why do you have to show a profit?

Do you make budgets on the profitability of a bass boat or a motorcycle?

If you enjoy having animals,  have at it.  If you have young children or grandkids,  there are lots bigger paybacks than dollars.

Redpowered,

we have been selling week old baby crossbred calves for the past year for $120 - $185.  Baby Holstine heifers sell for $3-$400.  We use a beef bull,  sell the calves,  and buy mature cows for $800 to $1500 and feel like we are money ahead over raising them.

(Jeff that's one ---watch out ;D)

[DanG]

Bro. Noble raises a good point. You can only show a profit, on paper, if you don't pay yourself for your time. The time you spend caring for the animals must be chalked up to recreation, 'cause you ain't likely to realize minimum wage out of it. ;)

Now, last night I posted that I know how to make $2000/mo on 12 cows. Nobody seemed interested, but I'm gonna tell you how, anyway. ;D  This method requires a lot of different skills, and considerable facilities, but is workable. First, ya gotta have 12 good brood cows. You have to artificially inseminate them, since a bull is a waste of money on such a small herd. Ya gotta have enough good land to support them without buying any feed. That would include grazing, hay, and a patch of grain for fattening & finishing. 12 cows=12 calves per year(adjust yer budget fer failures :).  When the calves are ready for slaughter, you should already have them sold to individuals for freezer beef for $300+ per side. You "assist" the buyer in slaughtering his beef, with the understanding that you will keep the hide. Now, the finest leather is "oak tanned", which takes very little in the way of chemicals, but lots of work and time. So you go that route and tan the hides into top quality leather. Now, the real skill part comes into play, which will clobber most folks. It takes about 3 weeks of part-time work to build a fine, custom-made saddle. These saddles, if they are high quality, will easily bring $1500 and up. Normally, the materials would cost nearly $1000, but you have produced most of this, through your other activities, especially if you can produce the tree, yourself. The rest of it is only about $200 in hardware and misc. materials. So, if you sell the beef for $600, and get an average of $2000 for your saddles, the $600 can cover expenses and the $2000 can slip right into your pocket.

Note:  The above assumes that the person endeavoring to accomplish this has the physical ability, and skills, as well as the willingness to work hard enough to accomplish all of the necessary tasks. ;D

[Haytrader]

DanG,

Boy, am I gonna screw up yer equation.
A finished beef (wighing 1200# to 1350#) is worth far more than $600. Fats are selling (on the hoof) for .80 so that "finished beef" is worth around $1000.

Wes,

Bro Noble has some good advice. Give a kid some chores and it will keep (or help) he or she out of mischief. I would not advise keeping stock in your neck of the woods during winter unless you have a barn. I think runnin cattle must be different in other areas of the country than here. I run a small herd of beef cows (140 head) and keep the calves till they are about 750#. Todays market will make that calf that is ready for the feedyard worth nearly $1 per pound. And that, my friends, will make $$.

[etat]

It took me 8 years to recover money spent on a small herd of beef cows.  Which means I've just about broke even.  Almost.  Cost included fencing  and cross fencing and gates on 18 acres, fertilize and seeds, aditional feed in winter, a tractor, used round baler, hay rake, salt and worm blocks, rent on a bigger pasture, (got lucky there, rented 40 acre pasture with pond, creek, barn, some wooded areas with pecan trees, for 100 dollars per year with the condition I keep the place up), the initial price of the cows, and bull), ocassional vet bills, ocassional loseing a calf which just ruins yer year in a small operation.  My herd ranges from 12 to 20 head.  

Holy Smokes!  Misfigured ???, maybe I'll break even in ANOTHER 8 years!  Maybe I should start making SADDLES!    ;D

[Duane_Moore]

  :PWes.   Get a stud horse.  and a wire tie bailer. both at the same time. ... then in one year tell us about it...  after the third wife. fifth dog, ninth pickup,  you will be experenced enough to be a cowboy.   Is that about right Haytrader? Cktate. 8 years more? thats short term, wait for captial gains tax. when ya sell out.      Duh---Duane :

[Ianab]

The way I figure it.. having a cow rear one calf per season is pretty much a dead loss, it's going to cost more to keep the cow for a year than you are going to get for the weaned calf  : BUT... A good Holstien Fresian can easy feed 3 calves at foot, or 4 if the cow is just bought in to feed the calves twice a day and the calves get a bit of meal and pasture as they get bigger. If you want to get serious.. milk the cows and feed calves in the barn. You can probably rear 8 or more calves over the season. Some locals here are even calving their cows in the Autumn and rearing calves thru the winter, bringing in a second batch in early spring, and a 3rd batch in late spring. Cows are then dried off for calving again in autumn. Thats 12 calves reared in a season. You do need a climate that will let you graze cows year round of course. The extra calves are Fresian or Fresian X bulls purchased from dairy farmers and are sold as weaners once they reach 100kg.
Now.. the maths...
12 cows x 16 calves = 192 calves per season
Buy calves (4 day old) for $100, sell at 100kg for $300 = $200 per calf
192 x 200 = 38,400
= $3200 per month....

These are pretty rough figures, there should be 10 or 12 calves you dont have to buy, but some might die, and you will have all sorts of other costs. But you can work smarter with cows

Food for thought ?

Ian

[breederman]

do it for fun, pay no attention to your expences,eat one sell the rest for freezer beef by hanging wt.You should have no problem getting top dollar in your area.I know several people selling halves to "city people"for 1.80 or a little more,hanging wt cut,wrapped and froze.and we are two hours north west of you.

[Haytrader]

Duane,

You are right about the small baler. I have never owned a stud horse so maybe I am not a real cowboy but I have had a few small balers and when they work they are wonderful. Sitting out in the middle of a hay feild at night trying to read the manual with headlights and swattin at bugs at the same time is no fun.
 >:(
I have a big round baler that rolls up a 1400# bale in just over a minute and wraps it with twine in 1 1/2 minutes. Net wrap is even faster. Going rate is $8/bale.
 ;)
One of the aspects of raising cattle like we do that I don't particurally care for is calving out heifers, which I am doing now. I have two babies on the ground and 14 to go. The first one managed to have her calf in a mineral feeder and didn't lick it off. I found it in time and cleared its airway and it made it. You can't make many plans during this time.
 :-/

[Corley5]

Calving season is the worst part.  That's one of the biggest reasons we're out of that business.  I miss seeing the little guys in the barnyard in the spring but don't miss dealing with problem births.

[Tagerts_crossing]

 I have two small heards 8-12 each and try to buy 10 more calves twice a year to feed out. Some breades are near trouble free at calving season but still problems can happen, I lost a calf yesterday.  Is it worth it, yes I enjoy it, the profitabilty comes and goes right now its good and Ithink it will get better in the next few months.  As a small hobby set up you need to be able to keep cost down with feed, I produce my own grain and hay otherwise it might not be profitable.  Try to sell to people as freezer beef and cut out the many middle men.  The one thing that no one has said yet is the tax benefits of this ie(equipment feed time material ect.).   You can make it look as a loss on paper for a while and realy help out, but when you finely quit the capital gain will need to be delt with, a good tax person that deals with ag. issues is worth the charge at least the first couple years.  Its not for every one but seems you are already doing well with the oxen a few more is not that much more work,  and if you start out with feeding some calves its easy to get out in a year or so.

[Wes]

I worked a double yesterday and didnt get to check the puter, I was suprised to see the number of responses on this.

 Thanks everyone,
Profit may not have been the rite word. as I have yet to make a profit with the sawmill but I am buying equpment , getting more customers and having fun.

Not counting , fence, barn , and pasture, could I buy... say 6-8 ? calves raise them 2 yrs, [1 winter] sell them and come out ahead.?maybe 6-8 a yr. There are a fiew people around here that are doing that but I havent had a chance to talk to them yet. the cows are in a small pastures and allways hanging around a round bale.I guess what Id like to get out of this besides doing this with my kids and building a mini farm is to give up my winter overtime snowplowing job for time with the family.

[Corley5]

  You'd probably do better to buy some feeders in the spring, run them on pasture with a little grain as a supplement and sell them in the fall.  Feeding cattle through the winter to sell them in the spring is generally not wise especially if you need to buy feed for them.

[Wes]

corley5
that makes sence,Im going to do alot of reserch on this before I start. :P

 Does anyone have any experience raising certified organic beef? That seems to be getting popular around here.

 also  A frend of mine raises holstiens for about a year and a half and sells them bred. He says that he does preity good with that. I dont know if thats any better than beef though.  

 Thanks again
 Wes   ;D

[redpowerd]

i was going to reccommend organic. my buddy has "organic beef"
but hasnt sold any in years. he was organic before there was organic. keep your papers in order, round here you cant spray or spread or feed from outside sources. ie, you can spread your poop, just make sure the poop was made from hay that wasnt sprayed chem in the last 3 yrs. and if you buy feed, have documentation that it was from an organic source.

[Frickman]

You guys mentioned the one thing I'm not fond of, calving season. Years ago we ran alot of black angus. They taste good but man are they a problem at calving time. And half nuts the rest of the year. Now we keep some cross breds that are mostly hereford. They are alot gentler and seem to drop their calves easier, but you are always going to have problems.

A few years ago I kind of looked at certified organic farming. The problem I saw is you don't get much of a premium and get lower production. There are alot of things they won't let you do, such as use lime. Now let me tell you, there is nothing wrong with spreading burnt limestone, an all natural product, but they won't let you do it. Your best bet is to give prospective customers a tour of your place and show them how you raise your animals. A fancy organic label won't sell your meat as fast as your customer feeling they have a connection to your operation. If you start with a few head you should easily build up a market.

[woodrat]

Almost more important than Organic certification, in my opinion anyway, is direct marketing. There are more people every day thinking about where their food comes from and are looking for more humane and local food and it doesn't necessarily need to be certified to bring a good price. my $3.00/# pork is not Organic (capital O) but people are happy to get it at that price. I'm selling the pork to friends who live in cities, and their friends are inquiring constantly.

Another direct marketing thing that a neighbor of mine does is selling 5 year beef contracts. I didn't get all the details straight, but for a set fee folks are buying a five year contract for a steer of at least a minimum hanging weight. They can pay him all up front or in payments over the five years.

I don't understand how anyone could ever make a buck selling livestock into the usual channels of commerce.

[Corley5]

You can't even use lime ??? ??? ???  I'd be wasting my time and money planting alfalfa up here if I couldn't use lime :  I don't a problem with chemical fertilizers either.  They're pretty basic chemistry.  I do see concern over pesticides, and antibiotics etc but some of these are little overboard :

[Frickman]

I agree with you Corley on the fertilizers. The plant doesn't know if the nitrogen is from fertilizer or from plowed under legumes, it all has the same chemical makeup. We try to limit our pesticide and herbicide use, usually just some 2,4-D to help the corn get off to a good start. Our beef cattle get pasture, hay, molasses, salt, a little corn and oats in the winter, and nothing else. Sure does make good eating without alot of chemicals running through their system.

[Corley5]

I top dress my hay with commercial fertilizers and I need to spray a couple of my grass seedings with 2 4 D this spring to control the spotted knapweed >:(  That's all I use in the way of chems on my hay.  I used Atrazine on corn a couple years when I still planted corn and that's some potent [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better].  I put it on at the max recommendation and it killed EVERYTHING but the corn and the next year I didn't have to spray because of the carry over.  Good stuff but it made me nervous just having it on the farm.  I cut the jugs and put them in the burn barrel at Grandma' s to get rid of them.  The next day I went torch them off and I find them in the shed tipped up draining into coffee cans.  Grandma was going to use the stuff to kill grass around her house so she wouldn't have to trim. :  I took it away from her and told her to buy some Roundup ;).

[Wes]

 Responsibly raised, happy beef...where the prospective city  buyer can visit the country and pet their meat on weekends.

 Thats a good angle, I like it !  ;D

 thanks again

[redpowerd]

were starting to run into glyphosphate (roundup) resistant redroot pigweed in our beans. you have to run half quart of atrizine or less if your puttin in anything but corn the next yr. hell of a residual.

[Norm]

That's a great idea Wes, I buy a whole beef from a young farmer I know that raises em the same way. I was going to slaughter it at his place but he gets so attached to them he won't let me. Can't stand to see em put down. We truck it to the local butcher and for 50 bucks he gives me the carcass and I butcher it from there. Makes for a full weekend.

The new roundup (roundup II) will knock down your pigweed. It goes on a little heavier but leaves a clean field. Atrizine is some nasty stuff and I won't allow it on my corn. You can bet it goes into anything you feed it to.

[redpowerd]

as much as i hate knockin down cows, im gunna kill my 3 beefers right on the farm. i feel better when they die in a familiar place, than get jostled around shipped to the floor. dont know if it effects the meat?
im new at beef, and im going to try to use as much of the cow as possible.

[Wes]

Norm,
 Yeah, that is a great idea, but it wasnt mine. It came from all youse guys that helped me out.

thanks,

Wes

[Duane_Moore]

 :P well let's see.   Haytraders calvin out heifers. proly short on flashlite batteries. read all the magazines, Louis LeMore. Books. had the whole family up everynite all nite long. sleeps all day. has wife and kids do chores, has a set of pulling chains in back pocket, had welded the calf puller up at least twice. all coveralls are dirty, buckles on overshoes tore off, to darn Grumpy to talk to, hopin one don't prolaps and have to stuff it all back.got 3 bottles combiotic in the frig, needs to get a bunch of scower medicine. and swears this is the last year of this crap.  as for a wire tie bailer and a stud horse at the same time. Two of the most contancorus peice of things in the world. ya can't do a darn thing with a stud horse. or keep him anywhere or trust him for anything. and a wire tie bailer has never worked. tie 1000 bailes then miss everone for a week. always said someday guna buy an ole one and put it in the field and pour 5 gal gas on it and lite a match. then laugh like he77 for days. put a runnin W on a stud horse and get the Case pocket knife out and a set of hot Irons and fix him good. then put him in the pasture with the mares. farming so much fun.and easy to. keeps ya busy takin the money to the bank.  what I know me from Wyoming.   Duh---Duane ;D

[Haytrader]

Who you callin grumpy?
5:30 here and raining
I use a peice of nylon rope (made a new one this year)
Wife and kids are avoiding me......... ;)
Time to go.

[shopteacher]

I see quite a few Llamas being raised around here anymore. I know they use the wool off them like sheep, but do they butcher them as well?  Never seen or heard of Llama steaks.
Just curious.

[Norm]

They don't butcher em around here shopteacher, they shear em for the wool. But you never know what your eating when you go out for dinner. Look out back to see if they have a pen of em looking nervous.

[redpowerd]

oxytocin makes calveing easier!
on me and the cow
jus two ccs in the arm.........


them llamas and alpacas are supposededly guardstock.
ever had 'paca jerky? me neither

[woodrat]

I have heard of folks eating llamas and alpacas, but I don't know anyone around here who does.

[Wife and kids are avoiding me..]

Yeah i've been smelling pretty sweet too, got the pigs loaded up and outtahere the other day, then been working on cleaning up the mess they left behind. Had the neighbor and his bobcat over today and helped get the immediate drainage probs fixed. Been covered head to toe in mud and pig sh*t on and off for days.  :-/

[Duane_Moore]

 :D :D :D :D You no Grumpy? such sweet memories. pullin calves. lookin for 600lbs weaners. easy calvin cows. hope the banker understands, and then going huntin this fall. the life of the American Farmer, the greatest there is. gota admire ya.  your a peice of history. wish were young enough to still do it. would be right beside ya. a way of life.  sure miss it.  God Bless.  Duh---Duane 8) 8) 8)

[redpowerd]

duh-wane...
sumpin tells me i gotta shake yer hand :D

[Duane_Moore]

MyMy. :P :P lets see iffin I can fiqure this one out. 17 replacement Heifers. 10% rotation on 10 years old cows. calvin at 2ys old. must be runnin about 140 to 160 momma cows? thats enough to keep 2 men darn busy. fixin fence, hayin, movin um,cleanin corrals, fixin fence, pullin wells, fixin equipt,.-- what flavor? Limosine, Gelbich, anything cross.? Angus, Baldy, I know Rainbo. same with me. more lbs per gain.better momma cows, well just trying to keep ya entertained during calving.  Keep in touch All Ya Farmers, huh from wood to farmin? good combo.  Duh---Duane. Wes cattle are more addicting then sawdust. when your sick of um you just put wheels under them, sold that day. outa the cow bussiness.  ps. they always look so little with them BIG ear tags in them.

[Haytrader]

You got the numbers about right Duane.
Here is a picture that will answer your question about color.
The crosses sure gain and sell better.

[Norm]

Patty and I went for a drive yesterday and noted how many people have gone back to black angus around here. The worst cow for calving. Throw in a large breed bull and you'll be pulling every first year heifer. Neighbor behind us runs about 75 cross breed mommas and uses a large angus bull. A much better combination. Me I'm content to listen to him tell me stories about staying up all night during calving season. Acorns and black walnuts are much easier to care for. :D

[redpowerd]

why is angus harder calvin?
i know if a cow freshens in the freestall, the calf is usually a goner. them rare occasions where one drops early right into the manure. the cow wont clean it and it wont get up, naval infections.
oh, we just had our first jersey calf last weekend. TINY!
she came from a holstien/jersey and a jersey sire.
pretty smart little heifer, and quite calm.
i was hopeing for a bull.

[etat]

Black angus are born fairly large, for the size of the mama, with big heads, making them harder to birth.

[Norm]

My dad worked at the local salebarn while I was a kid. The people who owned it had a large cattle operation. They got the smart idea of breeding their angus mommas to a large frame bull. I remember vividly helping pull every one of em. Most died and a bunch of mommas too. We had charlois on our place and had much less problems than the neighbor who had black angus.

Only way I like to see a cow now is hanging from a meat hook or on my plate. ;D

[Wes]

 Duane,
 I thought I missed something, wasnt sure what you ment with the stud and bailer, now I get it. ;D

 There is a farm over the mountain that raises alpacas, and he uses llamas as guard dogs.

[Duane_Moore]

 ;)Whew- Haytrader, that picture is so so real..back in the late 50s the folks had some white faced cows. (Herfords) then about may there came a good snow then lots sunshine,the white bags all got sun burned, then we spent days ropen cows and tieing up ther legs so they wouldn't kick the ship outa the calves. the end of white baged cows, back to angus, then in the 60s I got the brilliant Idea of bigger calves. got some Charolis semen went to work, then come calvin time, lordy, lordy, what a mess.took them heifers cross breads and built my own heard, good size, good mommas,but not much milk for bigger calves, so crossed them with Gelbivch,Limosine, that was my base from then on, good weaning weight, good mommas, good milk, and could stand the cold,(lota Hair) feeders hate that, have A.I. many different breeds for the fun, usually took about 10 cows and breed them for Exotic breeds, tryed them all. I think, well enjoyed the visit guys, Duh---Duane :D also raised a lot of he77 in my day