For several months I've been looking into what it would take to add hydraulics to my '87 WM LT40 and finally jumped in and started the project. After some discussions with WM about parts, and convincing them I could handle the work, I ordered a 2-axis log clamp and a log turner.
I'm sure some will tell me I'd have been better off trading the mill for a newer model (including WM), but here's my reasoning. I don't saw for a living, and unless I get to doing a lot more, this mill will do the job. The other thing is, I essentially have no money in the saw to start with because it was inherited from my dad's estate. The clamp and turner cost a bit but still a lot less cash outlay that trading mills.
The other thing is I just enjoy working in my shop on projects like this....almost reason enough in itself.
Here are pics of the process so far. I'm done with the first phase...mounting the clamp & turner.
Original frame arrangement with hinged center log rails:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/8.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495293588)
Clamp & Turner as Received:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495293489)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495293538)
New style rails similar to what WM uses now:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/10.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495293629)
First small problem....vertical cylinder on log clamp was crooked. Ended up being the mount on the cylinder was welded on crooked. Not a big deal, just put it in the mill and re-cut the face of the mount.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/18.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293697)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/22.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293715)
Test fitting the clamp...took lots and lots of measurements for both the clamp and turner before I did any modifications
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/24.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293761)
Made up a frame insert to jog the frame out 4" to accommodate the log clamp and welded it in place....Before cutting out the frame. Notice I've removed the outer part of the original log clamp box to make room for the frame insert.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/27.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293797)
Cut out and boxed in the frame jog
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/28.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293837)
Welded in the new log rails. I welded the end to the main frame tube first, allowed it to cool, and then welded the rest of the rail to try and minimize any "pull" on the main tube from weld shrink.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/31.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293871)
Cut out the angled braces after the new rail is welded in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/32.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293907)
Test fitting log turner....many more measurements to be sure.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/39.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293940)
The sides of the main frame tube have quite a bit of convex curve which makes mounting the new parts flat kind of difficult.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/53.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495293970)
Ended up putting the log clamp in the mill and facing off the mounting surface at about a 1° angle to match the frame tube. This also flattened the mounting plate which was bowed quite a bit from the welds on the back side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/45.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294102)
Drilled mounting holes in main frame.....over size on outside because I was installing spacers in the frame to prevent the bolts from squeezing the sides of the frame in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/46.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294127)
Spacers in place for welding...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/49.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294149)
Welded and ground smooth
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/50.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294179)
Same thing done on outside of frame
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/54.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294200)
Continued on next post................
Nice job on the fabrication work. Sounds like you're having a lot of fun working out the kinks, so that alone makes it a worthwhile project to me.
New mills are great, but very expensive, too. I think it's great that your modifying your dad's mill to suit your needs. I'll be watching this with interest.....
More Pics......
To adjust the fit between the frame rails for the log clamp I machined a recess in the outer clamp support. (only about .040" deep)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/55.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294219)
The mounting plates for the log tuner go the same treatment as the clamp to fit them to the main frame tube. Note the curved edge of the plates where they mate up to the frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/56.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294253)
Tacked in place
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/61.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294279)
Frame mods complete and primed.... In this pic I've also added the two plates on either side of the log turner that tie the frame rails together. Hard to see in this pic but I spaced them out 1/2" wider because the outer cylinder mount pin was wide enough to hit the plates as the turner swings up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/68.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294305)
Clamp and turner in place and top log rails on.....starting to come together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/70.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294332)
Notice how the log turner swings down between the tubes on the axle framework? To get this to work I had to move the axle assembly forward 2". The original log clamp box is still usable after the modifications.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/76.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294357)
Made up 1/2" plates to move the axel forward. Much simpler than I thought it was going to be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/82.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294408)
Pile of leftover parts.....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/84.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495294439)
That's phase one complete. It was quite a bit of work but actually went really well. No major fitting problems and I think it turned out well. In projects like this you're always waiting for the "Oh crap" moment when you realize you did something bad wrong but I was lucky and avoided that this time....so far.
One comment about this old mill: It was put together with mostly grade 2 bolts which I despise....weak, rust-prone bolts that should, in my opinion, be banned except for use as a shear bolt. I was surprised when I got the log clamp and turner that WM is STILL using that grade 2 junk...seriously? OK, rant over.
Next phases:
* Add linkage and cylinder to two of the side stops
* Build a pair of roller toe boards
* Add hydraulic pump and valving (yet to decide on WM style or go for separate gas powered unit)
Any and all comments welcome.....more to come.
Great fab work obviously not a rookie .
You are meticulous. I don't think I'd worry about buying a machine you modified.
Are those hand scrape marks on the milling machine table?
Quote from: grouch on May 20, 2017, 12:53:18 PM
You are meticulous. I don't think I'd worry about buying a machine you modified.
Are those hand scrape marks on the milling machine table?
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Yes, the mill table has a ground surface but like a lot of machines they "flower scrape" the surface afterwards. On the mill table it's more cosmetic than functional. On the ways of a machine the final flowering scrape acts to give small depressions to hold oil for better lubrication.
Awesome job!
I'm impressed. Looks like a great job!
Did I mention I took lots & lots of measurements....and made sketches?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/Sketches.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495307217)
A couple of years ago I had raised the log deck 2" so that the blade would cut down to 1" on the last board. Originally the thinnest it would cut was nearly 2 1/2". Without having the deck raised the modifications I've made would not have worked out very well.
One thing I haven't decided on yet is how I want to set the stop on the log clamp. On the newer mills I think the tall side stops line up with the short side stops on the ends of the rails. On this older mill the tall stops were 2" inboard of the short stops, which is where the stop on the log clamp is located.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/101.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495307184)
I'm trying to decide if I'd rather move the stop on the clamp out to match the other short stops or move the rail stops in to match the clamp and tall side stops.
Moving the rail stops in will reduce my max. cutting width by 2" but I don't know if that's a big deal since the tall side stops are 2" in already.
Modifying the stop on the clamp wouldn't be too difficult.....either weld an extension on the top plate so the dog can be move out or cut the original top plate off and weld on a wider one to move the dog out....same difference.
Don't know why WM designed it this way, but there is quite a bit of offset between the stop and the clamp jaw. If I modify the clamp dog I could line them up better.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/100.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495307151)
Another mod I did recently was build a dust chute and bought the dust hose from WM. Hopefully that will keep a little of the dust from flying around.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/12.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495293671)
I will have to trim the old chain bracket on the carriage because it hits the mounting bolts for the log clamp. Not a big deal since the bracket isn't used anymore. There was an update kit that changed the carriage chain from a double "moving" chain to a single "stationary" chain which eliminated the need for the bracket. I think it was a safety issue that they did away with the movable chain.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/Bolt.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1495309105)
Lastly, since I've raised the bed rails 2" it effectively shortens the side stops by 2". I made a couple of slip-in extensions to make them taller but I'm considering rebuilding the side stops to be a solid steel stop similar to newer mills instead of the square tubing mine is made of. The vertical stops the new mills have would be nice but they're around $350 ea. and I don't know if I have room to mount them.
Next on the list is to mount the power strip....I bought it so I might as well put it on even if I end up with a gas powered hyd. pump. One or two mods will have to be done to get it mounted as the carriage doesn't have the mounting holes and the battery box may need tweaking.
More later as I make progress....
Why the expanded metal? Also you will probably have some sawdust buildup in that corner because the sawdust will have to turn 45° to be directed downward.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1652.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1376184170)
My clamp will hold 3" but not 2", so I use my handy dandy 1" X 2¼" "stick" as a spacer. It is seen above in it's sleeping spot beside the outrigger and ready for action.
D6c:
Have you read the Useful sawmill mods (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.0) thread? Full of practical tips from the field by Bibbyman, Magicman, and a whole host of folks. A sort of index (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.msg1397352.html#msg1397352) of the first 58 or so pages.
I have yet to see your ambidexter thermostropter adjuster. This could be critical.
Outstanding work and a real nice upgrade.
Quote from: Magicman on May 20, 2017, 04:10:19 PM
Why the expanded metal? ......
Originally the whole bottom was closed off with expanded metal to keep you from getting your fingers in the blade. I just cut out the part over the dust tube so small chunks wouldn't get caught in the mesh.
Quote from: grouch on May 20, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
.....I have yet to see your ambidexter thermostropter adjuster. This could be critical.
It's right next to the turbo encabulator.
And thanks for the link. I saw it a while back but had kind of forgotten about it.
Excellent fabrication and thanks for taking the time to document on the forum. Your pictures are great and the post is a valuable resource for others. I enjoyed reading and viewing.
Quote from: D6c on May 20, 2017, 03:54:32 PM
Did I mention I took lots & lots of measurements....and made sketches?
I also do the same. About 2/3's on paper but I learned Sketchup 10 years and often draw to scale just to insure it all fits when complete.
I'm curious. Why did you conform to the curved sides of the rectangular tubing instead of forcing it to flatten, or simply filling with weld?
I was also wondering that. I would have just wacked it a good one.
As methodical as D6c has been with this project, "non whacking" is of no surprise to me. Whacking would not be controllable.
Nice workmanship! Just wondering why cut the frame to fit cylinder. Unless you needed wider clamp opening. Cutting end off cylinder would quicker. Am I missing the the reason/
Quote from: Magicman on May 20, 2017, 09:43:39 PM
As methodical as D6c has been with this project, "non whacking" is of no surprise to me. Whacking would not be controllable.
All he needs is a "calibrated and certified" hammer for those precision whacks ;D seriously though, excellent work on the mods and thanks for the detailed pics. Your work is topshelf! That will be a first rate mill when you are done.
Quote from: grouch on May 20, 2017, 08:41:07 PM
I'm curious. Why did you conform to the curved sides of the rectangular tubing instead of forcing it to flatten, or simply filling with weld?
I'm not an expert on welding but what I was trying minimize any stress added to the main frame tube due to weld shrink. I welded the turner mounts about 2" top & bottom (both sides), leaving the center unwelded. Because the tube is curved out it left quite a gap top and bottom that I wanted to tighten up. Filling the gap with weld would be easy enough but I was concerned the weld shrink would pull quite a bit and put pressure on the tube and possibly cause a little warp. The main tube is 4 x 8" but only 3/16" wall. It's amazing sometimes how much a weld will "pull" a piece of steel when it cools.
Quote from: derhntr on May 21, 2017, 08:15:47 AM
Nice workmanship! Just wondering why cut the frame to fit cylinder. Unless you needed wider clamp opening. Cutting end off cylinder would quicker. Am I missing the the reason/
You'r right, it would have been much easier to shorten the 2" horizontal shaft on the log clamp. Probably 90% of the time it would have plenty of stroke to hold the logs....just figured since it was there I'd use all the stroke it had.
Beautiful Beautiful job. When I bought my lt40 manual mill, I looked into doing the same thing you have done. Decided it was beyond my expertise and build a much simpler system that required no welding on the mill..But I still covet that 2 plane clamp...
Quote from: D6c on May 21, 2017, 12:36:49 PM
I'm not an expert on welding but what I was trying minimize any stress added to the main frame tube due to weld shrink. I welded the turner mounts about 2" top & bottom (both sides), leaving the center unwelded. Because the tube is curved out it left quite a gap top and bottom that I wanted to tighten up. Filling the gap with weld would be easy enough but I was concerned the weld shrink would pull quite a bit and put pressure on the tube and possibly cause a little warp. The main tube is 4 x 8" but only 3/16" wall. It's amazing sometimes how much a weld will "pull" a piece of steel when it cools.
Makes sense. You can bring down a building with welds.
I probably would've tried clamping that sucker and making it flatten out, ending up with stress and troubles elsewhere. :D Things I build don't have to run down the highway at speed.
Today I worked at mounting the power strip and electrical contacts.
First got the strip in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/106.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495485891)
This older mill didn't have the mount for the positive contact so I had to extend the bottom of the carriage to create a place to mount it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/103.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495485806)
Squirted a little paint on it and bolted up the + contact....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/105.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495485845)
The negative contact took a little more work. There have been enough changes in the framework that the factory bracket won't work (or not real well) so I made up a replacement.
Factory bracket...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/108.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495485958)
Replacement bracket: Flat plate with supporting legs. Ended up moving the mounting holes for spring bolts inward so the springs would apply a decent about of pressure on the contact. As you can tell I'm going to have to do a bit of polishing up on the bottom guide rail to get it to make a good connection. Sure would be nice if it was made out of stainless.....or was at least painted from the factory.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/109.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495485990)
I also added a front end carriage stop....probably not that necessary but I didn't like the way the first thing that was hitting was the cam follower that guides the chain up around the carriage drive sprocket.....Would hate to break it off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/107.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495485925)
From the discussion above about occasionally needing hydraulic power part way through a log......it occurs to me that it would be a simple matter to add one, or even two, more power strips down the length of the frame to have power towards the far end. Would be easy enough to braze/solder the strips together.
I don't really see much of a safety issue with doing that. I was figuring on installing a momentary switch at the hydraulic controls that you have to hold down to get power to the pump.....as soon as you release the switch, the pump would stop.
Now I think I'll turn my attention to building a pair of roller toe boards. Probably would be ahead to just buy them from WM, but where's the fun in that?
Can anyone tell me how far above the bed rails the rollers are in the full up position?
One think I forgot to mention back up the thread.....when building closed tube frames, like the mods I was doing on this mill, it's always a good idea to drill a drain hole in the bottom of the closed frame tubes. It's amazing how water can find its way in a tiny pinhole or around a bolt, fill the tube with water, and then freeze and swell it up.
The axle framework on this mill is made of 2 x 2 that's fully closed, except for where the mounting bolts go through. Both tubes are swelled on one end and cracked in a couple of places.
Nice work D6c.You will love the roller toe boards when you start using them.
Nice work.I added the toe rollers to my mill(manual LT30),very handy to have.If someone doesn't chime in sooner I will get some measurements after work today.
Your mill should be called the born again Mizer.No offense intended to anyone for using the phrase out of context
Had a little time....top of rail to top of roller is 4¼".
Keep up the great work and thanks for taking us along.
Quote from: 47sawdust on May 23, 2017, 05:52:16 AM
Nice work.I added the toe rollers to my mill(manual LT30),very handy to have.If someone doesn't chime in sooner I will get some measurements after work today.
Your mill should be called the born again Mizer.No offense intended to anyone for using the phrase out of context
Had a little time....top of rail to top of roller is 4¼".
Keep up the great work and thanks for taking us along.
Thanks for the measurement....a little taller than I was guessing.
And even at that height, sometimes not tall enough. The taller the better.
Nice job D6C and thank you for sharing with us. Obviously it takes a lot of time to document all this, adding pictures, etc. One question, why did you start with an old mill? Couldn't you have just fabricated one out of a paper clip or something?
Very nice work! Your gonna love turning log with a 6" lever versus a 6' lever ;) I built the pineywoods log turner/clamp and powered backstops and love it. I need to beef up the clamps for the backstops though, it's seems they weren't designed to hold up to hydraulics. Also, I went with the gas engine. I extended the tongue by 3' and set the engine on it at a 45* angle then used an expired scba air tank for the hydraulic tank. The engine runs at an idle until I need power, then simply rev it up and do my thing. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/IMG_0148.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1474608992)
Quote from: 50 Acre Jim on June 11, 2017, 07:31:34 AM
Nice job D6C and thank you for sharing with us. Obviously it takes a lot of time to document all this, adding pictures, etc. One question, why did you start with an old mill? Couldn't you have just fabricated one out of a paper clip or something?
Kind of feels like I started from scratch...
Quote from: Crossroads on June 12, 2017, 04:41:07 AM
Very nice work! Your gonna love turning log with a 6" lever versus a 6' lever ;) I built the pineywoods log turner/clamp and powered backstops and love it. I need to beef up the clamps for the backstops though, it's seems they weren't designed to hold up to hydraulics. Also, I went with the gas engine. I extended the tongue by 3' and set the engine on it at a 45* angle then used an expired scba air tank for the hydraulic tank. The engine runs at an idle until I need power, then simply rev it up and do my thing. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/IMG_0148.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1474608992)
Looks good Crossroads. I've been wondering how my old style backstops are going to hold up....might have to do some mods on them if they give trouble.
Got the hyd. cylinders for the backstops and toe boards today.
I've done some CAD work to design the linkage for the backstops. I'm only powering two of them for now until I prove it out. If needed, I may power the other two later, but since they swing in the opposite direction I can't just hook them to the linkage. I've sort of worked out a chain & sprocket arrangement that would drive the 2nd pair off the first...it has the chain running around opposite sides so the rotation is reversed. Timing is critical since when the adjacent stops swing down they will hit each other unless one leads the other a little.
Toe boards are partially designed too, except for the mounting bracket. Had to wait until I got the cylinders to be sure of the dimensions.
Work on the mill has been set aside for a while because I'm working on getting a new tractor mounted pasture sprayer set up, but I'm already having to modify it a little bit to make it work like I want. I'm also adding GPS mapping & a sprayer controller to the tractor so I'm having to figure that out. Might be a steep learning curve.
I extended the backstops 2" to compensate for the 2" I raised the bed. I also notched the top 1" at a 45* then bent the front edge back so the logs would slide off better. The actual backstops are plenty strong, it's the upside down V shaped piece that adjusts the friction on the inside end of the tube that seems flex. With the hydraulics on them, there is no Ned for the friction to hold the stops up so, my plan is the build a new bracket with a piece of pipe to sleeve the end of the stop. I'm curious how close you can cut to the bed, now that you put the 2" lift kit on. I ended up notching the rails where the adjustment set crew is under the sliding guide roller arm. Even at that the bottom of the roller bracket hits the rails at about 1 7/8".
Quote from: Crossroads on June 13, 2017, 10:49:27 PM
I extended the backstops 2" to compensate for the 2" I raised the bed. I also notched the top 1" at a 45* then bent the front edge back so the logs would slide off better. The actual backstops are plenty strong, it's the upside down V shaped piece that adjusts the friction on the inside end of the tube that seems flex. With the hydraulics on them, there is no Ned for the friction to hold the stops up so, my plan is the build a new bracket with a piece of pipe to sleeve the end of the stop. I'm curious how close you can cut to the bed, now that you put the 2" lift kit on. I ended up notching the rails where the adjustment set crew is under the sliding guide roller arm. Even at that the bottom of the roller bracket hits the rails at about 1 7/8".
I made a couple of slide in extensions for the stops but I plan on making a more permanent modification. Possibly putting an angle on like you did or maybe some rollers similar to what WM does now.
Not sure what the difference is between your guide clearance and mine....with the 2" I raised the rails I'm now able to cut down to 1" thick. The first thing that would hit is the blade guard on the movable guide.
That little round low spot that I'm pointing at it the first place that hits in mine. The blade is loose in the picture, but the head is set at 2"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/IMG_0677.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1497566553)
Looks like your guard hangs down quite a bit more than the one on mine. The first thing to hit on mine is the strap that mounts the movable blade guard right under the roller. I would think you could either modify your guard or see if you can get one more like what I have. ('87 LT-40 Manual)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0395.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1497618257)
I'll get a picture from the other side. It looks like the movable arm is completely different. Mine is square tube that slides inside of another square tube like a trailer hitch receiver.
Yea, completely different. This one is is a 1" solid square bar turned on edge. The corners of the bar run in the v-rollers to slide in/out.
Here's a pic of the other side. It works ok but is a real pain to adjust the rollers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0398.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1497629966)
That's the same as my '92 LT40. And good looking work.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/IMG_0681.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1497716964)
Haven't ever seen that style of outer guide support.....that must be an earlier design. Doesn't look to have any way to adjust it parallel to the rails other than by adjusting the bottom carriage rollers. Looks like it might be plenty sturdy and stable though.
Might be able to cut the blade rollers off the end of the support and weld on a different style that will give you more clearance....although that would probably require changing the fixed guide too.
Maybe get a set for a later WM saw, or something like these: http://www.suffolkmachinery.com/tw-guide-systems-wm.html
Sure would be nice to get it so you can cut down to an inch.
I agree, I'd like to get down to an inch. If I lower the rollers though I would have to lower the drive wheels equally. I think I need to figure out a way to raise the arm while leaving the rollers where they are. There is a set screw with a lock nut on the under side to adjust the horizontal. It was built in late 84 so it's definitely still in the design stages lol. As it is I have been telling my customers that I can cut whatever they want until I get down to 2". So far they've all been ok with that.
Other owner's of old WM use a dedicated 2'' slab to lay on the rails,so they can saw to 1".Might not be what you want but just a thought.
Quote from: Crossroads on June 17, 2017, 06:32:35 PM
I agree, I'd like to get down to an inch. If I lower the rollers though I would have to lower the drive wheels equally. I think I need to figure out a way to raise the arm while leaving the rollers where they are.........
Doesn't look like if would be a big job to cut that outer support tube off. It being just a square tube you could easily make a new one and weld it back on in a higher position and the rework the roller guides. Do the same thing to the fixed roller and you're good. Looks like a worthwhile modification to me. In the mean time do like 47sawdust said, put a 2" slab under for your last cut.
I might try figuring out a modification to raise the support. I've used the 2" board in the past, but it seems like I always get sawdust in between or one end will bow up or down and the cut isn't very consistent. I've found it easier to just talk to the customer in advance and let them know they will be getting some 2x material and why. If they won't accept that, then I would consider shimming the last cut up.
My old Kasco mill had the same problem. I welded 1" square stainless steel tubing to the bunks to solve the problem. Had to leave the tubing about an inch shorter than the bunks for something to clear. Maybe you could do something similar.
Had a little time over the last few days to build some components for the toe boards and side stops. Pretty much got all the pieces to begin putting them together....cylinder mounts, arms to weld to side stops, mounting brackets for toe boards, toe board rollers, shaft & links, etc.
As long as I didn't make a mistake measuring the frame, things should go together. I designed the linkages in Solidworks so that I could refine the motion and get it to work like I think it should. (never know for sure until you try it out)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0430.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498917210)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/Sawmill_Frame.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498917651)
That's pretty much the way I did mine. Hint,,,Adjust the linkage between the 2 backstops so that the height of the downstream stop is 1/4 inch lower than the upstream.. that way, if the blade misses the first one, it;s definetly gonna miss the other.. ;D
I like that "TIP" Piney! smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
Yes, that sounds like a good idea...then I'll only have one stop with scars on it.
There's a bonus if you follow Pineywoods' suggestion. As long as the downstream side stop is even a little bit lower, you can sight along the tops of the side stops; if the blade is above your line of sight, you won't hit either stop.
I welded up the toe board assy. The roller is a 2 1/2" OD x 2" ID DOM tube and the shaft is 2" (turned about .020 undersize) and with the ends turned down to 1 1/2" to fit the links.
Probably overkill on size....I just scaled pictures that I'd taken and got it approx. the same size.
It's permanently welded together and I don't want the roller to get to sticking with rust, but with grease zerks on both ends I don't think I'll ever have trouble with it rolling freely.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0448.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1499293856)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0449.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1499293890)
Nice job. 8)
That looks really good, my mill is begging for a set of those, guess I'd better get busy. 8)
Got one of the toe boards mounted today. Not sure if it will make much difference, but I decided to mount them on the inside of the outer rails rather than on the outside. The rails are just a little under 8' outside to outside so if I have a log right on 8' the toe boards wouldn't catch the end if mounted on the outside of the rail like I've seen on factory WM setups.
I'm guessing the newer mills may have the rails a little closer together but I don't know.
The roller raises about 4 1/2" above the bed rail when all the way up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0459.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1499902920)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0457.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1499902851)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0458.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1499902888)
Not as much room on the inside of the rails but i think it'll work. The only problem I ran into was cylinder length. I measured one of the cylinders center to center to design the mounting arm but didn't notice there is a difference between the two cylinders I got from WM. Of course I happened to measure the long one which caused a little interference when I mount the shorter of the two. Not a big problem to clear the arm a little. That will teach me not to design things close on clearance.
Heads up thinking there on the roller placement.I've been sawing a lot of 8' logs and the front toe roller doesn't catch the log.
You do some first-class fab word D6c. What are you using to cut out the parts?
Looking good!
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on July 13, 2017, 05:58:23 PM
You do some first-class fab word D6c. What are you using to cut out the parts?
I have a some equipment in the corner of my shop...lathe, bridgeport, drill press, vertical saw, & surface grinder. It's been king of nice to do a little machine work on this project. I don't get a chance to keep my skills up like I used to and it's amazing how rusty you get after a while.
Quote from: 47sawdust on July 13, 2017, 03:25:12 PM
Heads up thinking there on the roller placement.I've been sawing a lot of 8' logs and the front toe roller doesn't catch the log.
D6c has that covered by mounting both of his toe boards on the inside. The rest of us have to remember to always load short (8') logs "butt to the front". ;D
I'm down to figuring out how I want to modify the side supports....lengthening the arms and adding rollers.
With raising the bed 2" the supports are a little short at about 7 1/4" above the rails.
How tall is WM building them these days? Any thoughts on how tall I should make them?
I made a couple of slip-in extensions a while back that added 6" so if I use them they'd be around 12 1/4"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0473.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500322821)
Since the supports are square tubing, I was thinking of adding a single roller on the top instead of the 2-roller arrangement I seen WM using. Any reason why one roller won't work?
Here's what I had in mind.....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/Side_Stops.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500324241)
I've got all the linkage for the side supports and toe boards put together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0482.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500323009)
In case it looks like everything has gone exactly to plan...it didn't. I made a error in measuring the center to center length of the side support cylinder. Had it about an inch shorter than it actually is, which made the mounting bracket too long.
Not a disaster.....just had to cut an inch or so out of the middle of the bracket and weld it back together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0460.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500322630)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0461.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500322665)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0462.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500322698)
Squirt a little paint on it and it'll never show.....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0463.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500322734)
They are 11" above the bed to the tip. Longer would be better but I'm sure you're aware that the ones on your mill aren't built as stout as newer mills, so that should be a consideration when going long.
Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on July 17, 2017, 06:57:41 PM
They are 11" above the bed to the tip. Longer would be better but I'm sure you're aware that the ones on your mill aren't built as stout as newer mills, so that should be a consideration when going long.
Thanks....I'll probably stick to about that height. The adjustment brackets aren't real strong and I may end up having to build heavier ones if I can't keep it in adjustment.
Spent half the afternoon adjusting the side supports. Kind of a tedious job getting them all straight & square. Had to weld up the end of one of the pipes to get it to line up with the others. It had been cut a little short on the end that mounts to the main frame tube.
The pipes that the side supports pivot on look to be just sch. 40 pipe and aren't very round. It always caused a problem with getting the tension set right. Too loose in one spot & too tight in another.
I put the supports in the mill and "bored" the outside of the pipe to make them truly round on the end. MUCH better now....nice even tension all the way up & down. :)
On my mill, with the sawhead height scale set on 11¼" the blade will "just" clear the uprights
I'm going to call Phase II of this project complete...(adding toe boards, side stop linkage, and cylinders)
I finished up modifying the side supports and assembled all of the components (at least temporarily)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0504_28129.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500843646)
Made the side stops about 11" to top of the roller with the front support being just a touch taller than the rest to make it less likely that I'll cut into them....at least not All of them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0505_28129.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500843680)
In the 2nd photo you can see I put blocks on the rails so the short stops are in line with the side supports. I think newer machines are already like this. It was necessary because the stop on the hydraulic clamp is designed in that position. I could have modified the hyd. clamp but decided to see if this easier solution works ok.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/100.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1495307151)
Next up will be starting work on the hydraulics. I've got the pump, 6-section stack valve, & hyd filter. I need to start designing an enclosure with enough room to house the components and all the hoses etc. I'm going to leave room for a 7th valve in case I decide to add a log lift later. I spent part of today sorting out what hydraulic fittings and hose ends I'll need plus got a rough measurement of how much hose it will take.
That is first class fabrication.
Get a couple of larger pieces of square tubing ~18" long that will slip over your side supports. Use these when you are turning (too) large logs or logs with irregular flutes. Slip them on, turn the log, and then remove them.
I dont know why but neither of my mills have the ''cant dogs'' on the inner bed rails. I think they thought they wernt necessary since the back of the clamp would catch a cant there. However on short logs they would be nice. You may have a ''better than new one'' when you are done.
Quote from: Magicman on July 23, 2017, 10:25:55 PM
That is first class fabrication.
My thoughts exactly.
PC
No idea why, but I guess they didn't put them on any of the two inner bed rails, just the main two!
I've thought about making a cant dog for each of the inner rails, but that's still "just a thought"!
Would definitely be nice when sawing short stuff!
That will be a dream to run when you finish it, keep up the good
Work!
Finally found time to do a little work on the hydraulic part of this project. There is sheet metal shop nearby that does nice work with really nice laser cutting machine. I designed up an enclosure for the valves & pump etc. and sent them an electronic file.
They cut out a flat blank and bent up the box and cover for me.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0625.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506262974)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0626.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263000)
They couldn't completely fold up the box because of the depth but used the laser to rip a line along the bend line so it would be easy for me to fold up the ends....worked really well. The laser cut rips were amazingly thin...less than .010" wide.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0627.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263016)
I clamped it in the hyd. press and bent it up by hand ,finished with a little rubber hammer work, and welded it together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0630.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263040)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0631.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263065)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0632.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263094)
Added stiffeners, mounted it to the frame, and started getting the components in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0636.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263122)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0641.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506263153)
Still have to make a cut out for the hyd. levers and an opening for the hoses to enter the main frame tube.
You've done some nice work since the last time I checked in. I decided to upgrade in a big way last week and ordered a new LT40, if all goes well, I'll be picking it up tomorrow and be home in time to saw a 10'x12x12 cedar beam for a customer.
Crossroads,
Congrats on getting a new LT-40...That will be a nice machine.
It's interesting hearing about what others are sawing. So much different in other parts of the country. In the midwest the only cedar we have is eastern red cedar and very few would come close to yielding a 10' 12x12.
VERY nice work Sir! What gauge is that drive chain?
Quote from: Carson-saws on September 27, 2017, 09:51:17 AM
VERY nice work Sir! What gauge is that drive chain?
If you mean the feed chain for the carriage I think it's just a #35 chain. It's part of the factory setup....kind of light but it's never given a problem. It used to have a loop of chain that ran full length of the mill, but there was an update to change it to a single stationary length of chain. I think it was a safety issue and the update was to eliminate the moving chain.
The vertical adjustment uses double 35 chains and I did have one of those break once. Good thing it has two or the head would drop.
Quote from: D6c on September 27, 2017, 09:37:59 AM
Crossroads,
Congrats on getting a new LT-40...That will be a nice machine.
It's interesting hearing about what others are sawing. So much different in other parts of the country. In the midwest the only cedar we have is eastern red cedar and very few would come close to yielding a 10' 12x12.
Thank you. I didn't get it today so, I had to cut the beam with the lt30. The cedar on my place is all incense cedar that someone planted along the highway about 40 years ago. There are about 80 of them that range from 12-36" dia. On the stump, but they're not very tall. I'm lucky to get 5 12' logs out of them. The interesting part is that those trees are what got me started with the sawmill a few years ago. I started with an old mobile dimension that was a loaner and a headache. Then I bought the lt30. Got tired of cleaning up the mess on my place so, I went mobile. Now I've outgrown the lt30 and decided to step up to the LT40. All because there are a few trees on my place lol.
Things have been moving along on the mill project.....Got the plumbing & wiring done in the hydraulic enclosure. I ran all the hoses through the frame tube to get the routing worked out and cut them to length. I pulled them out again and used my brothers hyd. hose machine to crimp all the ends. Saves a ton of money over having them built at a hydraulic shop. Getting the hoses threaded back through the frame once the ends were on turned out to be a bear....took about a day of fighting them to finally get them in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0664.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936078)
The original battery box was sized for a long narrow tractor battery and since it was a manual mill there wasn't any fuse box. I decided to rebuild the box to fit a group 31 battery and also mount a small box for a 225A mega fuse. Found the box and fuse holder on ebay pretty reasonable. Got some sheet stock and bent up the box, welded up the corners and made hangers similar to the way the original was made.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0676.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936145)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0675.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936112)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0677.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936173)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0684.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936219)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0685.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936238)
Space was tight on the width of the battery box. I ended up sliding the axle assembly to the right about 3/4" in order to have enough room between the battery box and the fender bracket.
I reworked the battery & fuse box wiring. I also had to do some rewiring in the carriage feed control box. There were a couple of wires that were pretty well cooked and the insulation had stuck to other wires. Fortunately nothing seems to have shorted and it still works like it should. I up-sized the wires that had melted to hopefully prevent it from doing it again...not sure what the cause was.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0686.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936263)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0679.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1507936199)
With these last few pieces done I was able to function check the hydraulics. Other than one small leak at a hyd. cylinder fitting it seems to work like it's supposed to. There are still a few things to finish up before a full sawing test.
I'm going to add a guide on the drive belts to keep the pulley from dragging on the belts when the blade is disengaged.
There are still a few pieces that need a coat of primer. I don't plan on painting the mill until I get a few hours on it and work out any bugs.
Also, for now I haven't added an alternator to the motor. It will most likely be necessary but I thought I'd test it out a little to see it will come close to keeping the battery charged as is.
The whole mill will have to be gone over and adjustments made to be sure everything is aligned properly.
Hopefully in the next week or two I'll be able to make a little sawdust.
Here's a like to a short video of my function check... https://youtu.be/3a2B4IVUiQc
I would say that your sawmill definitely qualifies as being "Up fitted". smiley_thumbsup
Looking mighty fine!
D6c, the cooked wires in your feed controller box may have been caused by letting the head return home and not disengaging the control lever back to neutral. I did that twice in one day 🙈
Keep that up and Wood-Mizer will be after you, to work for them! ;) ;D
I got the final small details finished up on the mill a couple of days ago.
- Polished up the carriage rails...painted the top one.... and cold blued the bottom one (as suggested by another member of this forum) I coated the bottom rail with grease to help the neg. contact slide and reduce the chance of rust reforming on the rail.
- Made a new set of wipers for the rails. Had a piece of teflon sheet I used to make them from but made them a little taller than the originals, and rather than tighten the pinch bolt I left them a little loose to float. I then tweaked the top cover so than when I bolted it in place it puts a little down pressure on the wipers. That way they'll self adjust for wear and hopefully do a better job of wiping the sawdust off the rails.
- Rechecked the whole mill alignment
I set them mill up in the open side of my pole barn and sawed a junk oak I had into stickers. It will take a while to get the hang of the hydraulics, but it looks like it's going to take a lot of the manual labor out of handling logs. Everything's working well so far.
The only thing that's not real intuitive yet is the lever for the horizontal log clamp....wasn't sure which way to have it operate when I hooked it up. Is the factory setup "up" for clamp & down for "release", or the other way around?
I'm going to call this project "done" for now. I'll use it for a while as is, and maybe next spring paint the whole mill if I don't want to change anything. I may add a log loader at a later date, but I'm going to see how much I need one first.
Quote from: D6c on October 29, 2017, 06:38:10 PM
... Is the factory setup "up" for clamp & down for "release" ...
Yes.
Tell us about the military vehicle hiding under plastic sheeting in your video, pretty please!! ;D ;D
That's great, congratulations on a job well done!
Quote from: SlowJoeCrow on October 30, 2017, 08:22:59 AM
Tell us about the military vehicle hiding under plastic sheeting in your video, pretty please!! ;D ;D
SlowJoe,
You've hit upon my other habit / affliction besides sawmills.....
What you saw was a 1945 WWII Willys MB Jeep that I restored about 20 years ago. It hasn't been driven much lately and needs a little carburetor work right now. It took quite a while to do and it was a few years before I got interested in another project. My dad was a Staff Sgt. and mechanic in a construction engineers unit in the pacific during WWII so we grew up reading Jeep & truck manuals he brought home.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0702.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509376706)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0703.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509376724)
....the next project is a '43 GMC CCKW 2 1/2 ton 6 x 6 cargo truck. It's currently all stripped down to the chassis and sand blasted. Hope to get back to it this winter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0704.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509376754)
Just this weekend I did a road trip to Illinois to pick up a WWII 1-ton "Ben Hur" trailer to go with the 6 x 6. The wood's pretty much shot but the rest is pretty complete so it should be an easy restoration. ( I'll have to use the sawmill to mill some lumber for the floor & sides )
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0705.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509376798)
I also have an '82 5-ton truck tractor I bought off the local Nat'l Guard camp. I use it to pull a lowboy to move my Cat D6c dozer around. Pretty gutless truck but I don't take it very far.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0706.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509376835)
My brother has the disease too....he's about 2/3's done restoring a WWII White half track....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44189/IMG_0701.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509376680)
It's a terrible affliction....best to avoid it if possible.
Love that army stuff. This is two that I made from scratch...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Smile~4.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509377987)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/MVC-729S.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509378082)
I love the military stuff too. While I dont own them, I have restored a Jeep very similar to yours, a 10 ton truck, and a Corps of Engineers Cat D8. All very neat projects.
Quote from: SlowJoeCrow on October 30, 2017, 10:27:38 PM
I love the military stuff too. While I dont own them, I have restored a Jeep very similar to yours, a 10 ton truck, and a Corps of Engineers Cat D8. All very neat projects.
The 10-ton, especially if it was an M123/M125, is what my brother would like to have. The D8 would be nice...at times I'd like to have a bigger crawler.
The 10 ton was a M123 tank retriever/hauler with a HUGE pto driven winch right behind the cab. Did't go fast, but could go anywhere. It was waaayyy cool! 6x6, with a rear differential braking system.