LT70 Mizer or 36HT25 Harvester

[shopteacher]

Hi and welcome. I just returned from Richmond and although I own and operate a Woodmizer I would suggest you take a look at the Baker Blue Streak. Watched it operate at the Expo and was very, very impressed.  It has a 60 something ( they didn't have literature on it yet) John Deere diesel and  uses a 2" band.  If I was buying a mill of that caliper I would really, really have a hard time choosing between the LT 70 and this new Baker.  The one at the show was built and brought to the show for a customer and sold for around 39,000.

[ppeterson]

ARKANSAWYER,

Why a band over a circle? I ask that as well. I keep coming back to the gain in yield and the simplicity of setting up a starter mill as portables offer.
Who knows what the next saw will be. Like the LT300 but the Select Saw looks intriguing. Definately know that whatever it is, it will be sending cants to a grade re-saw system. Then the circle would make sense, as well.

I understand all of the points you made and realize the benifits. Thanks for the input.

I went and watched a 36HT25 TH run for 4 hours the other day and liked some of the features.

One of the biggest advantages I saw was the TH cuts into the face that has already been opened after the first rotation of the log. Therefore, the saws should cut longer.

Another advantage, the TH has 3 dogs. Should be better on a crooked log.

I also liked the fact that there was a large dial indicator for live sawing.
Does WM have anything at all? I never thought to look and the brochures don't show anything.

This particular saw had a 40 something Deutch engine. Ran quiet but I noticed it bogged in larger hardwoods. Especially in the Ash.
The sawyer like the motor.

I like grits, even though I was raised on pasties.

shopteacher:
I was visiting the Baker website last night and I agree it is another saw worth looking at.
Thanks.

ppeterson

[Rod]

The sawmills the cut the most lumber in a year are band mills around here


http://www.wvforestry.com/Green%20Lumber.DIR.pdf

[Bibbyman]

Wood-Mizer has a "yard stick" scale that runs vertical on the mast right in front of the control box on the walk-along and ride-along mills.  It's about arm distance away when adjustments are made so it can be read quite well by the operator.  

The Wood-Mizers with Command Control,  this scale is only readable from the control box when the sawhead is within say 5' of the hitch end where the Command Control is located – at least with my eyesight.  But that's not a problem if you're running Accuset because all you need to know is displayed there on the console -  the height above deck and set numbers being about ½ high letters.   When sawing with the Accuset and Command Control,  the manual scale is of little use.

With the Wood-Mizer LT70 with Command Control,  the control stand can be moved anywhere around the mill.  Many find sawing from the back end having an advantage.  In this case,  the manual scale would not be visible from the operator's view point – nor is it really needed.

Cutting through the "clean side" probably has some advantage.  But you're going to cut through the bark on the first face anyway.  And unless you cut a substantial number of flinches off'n the first face,  you'll be cutting through some bark on the other faces as well. Of course,  once the cant is squared down,  both designs are sawing through a clean face.

The Wood-Mizer dual-plane clamp system is a major improvement over their old flap style clamp.  It's got enough power to clamp a cant so the cant won't bow as the stress changes.  It can even pull some stress bow out of a cant.

Link to the Knowledge Base for an article on using the Wood-Mizer Accuset.

[ppeterson]

Hello again Bibby,

Thanks for the info. on the yard stick. I knew there had to be something on the saw. I just didn't see it.

Also, thanks for the link to the acuset setworks.

Regards,
ppeterson

[FeltzE]

I've got a Baker edger next to my WM saw and I'm happy with both based on their engineered capabilities.

Some Points I'd like to make :

Kerf, I think that kerf is a moot point as the loss in a board here and their is less than the loss of $/hour in production (no one ever seems to make that comparision) Lose a $50 in lumber to kerf in a day or loose a days equivalance in production capabiliy and all the labor $/hr that goes with it.

Rotation of the log, I really like the fact that the Baker mill rotates the cut so that your cutting into the open face of the log it will save on blades, I've been forced when cutting dirty logs to open them up and rotate them by hand or all the way over to get clean cuts (without a debarker) to keep the blades from being dulled in the mud.

I still say that the sawmill is just a support system for the sawblade. Equiped appropriately to the USER's needs and goals.  If you are going to cut to support a hobby buy support equipment accordingly, maybe none. Cutting to meet a weekly quota for profit, determine your weekly production goals and go from there.

Goal, 5mbf or less a week, 1.5 inch band with hydraulics, no helpers, a forklift, debarker

5-10mbf / week 1.5 inch band with hydraulics, no helper, forklift debarker, maybe an edger.

10-15mbf . week 1.5 inch band, hydraulics (faster if possible) 1 employee, edger, forklift, debarker

over 15 mbf, 2 inch or wider blade and all of the above maybe needing more employees. green chain etc. maybe a double direction saw or circle saw.

I think the best advantges of the 1.5 inch mills are economy of operation eg.   Cheap blades, cheap resharpening equipment, portability.

my 2cents  :D

Eric

[Bibbyman]

I found a close-up of a Wood-Mizer scale.



The one on the right is a standard 1" rule.  The one on the left is set for grade sawing 4/4,5/4,6/4,8/4 drops.  The one on the right stays put but the one on the left can be slid up and down to 'zero' out where you want to start cutting and making your drops.  Purdy easy once you get on to it.  

The sight bar is not in the picture.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  LT 70 has a chain turner and you can turn the log either way and saw into clean wood as well.  You can move the station all around and be in better placement to help off bear or load logs..
  In hardwoods the board you save with thin kerf will be in the lower grades.  In softwoods where grade is based on knot placement and size saving a board down inside means smaller knots and the price is about the same for all wood in the log unless it is clear.
ARKANSAWYER

[Bibbyman]

A band saw can save more wood than the difference between the kerf between band and circle.  Our grade broker lets us saw 4/4 1-1/8 thick.  Says with smoother and more accurate thickness,  that's thick enough.  I've seen circle sawn lumber on his lot that looks somewhere between 1-3/16 and 1-1/4.  May have been just their practice. This is just our experience with two brokers.

Another broker we did do business with expected a full 1-1/4" board for 4/4.  I think kind of figured out what he was doing - he'd buy 4/4 but likely most would likely "clean" at 5/4 when dried and planed. Anything that didn't would for sure clean 4/4.

It was like getting a 10% bonus just by going to the borker where 1-1/8 was thick enough. ;)

[FeltzE]

As always, I enjoy the discussion!  

I should have used the word inexpensive instead of cheap earlier, The blades are good blades; inexpensive to buy and maintain. The sharpening equipment can be had new for around $2k compared to the $20+ for the big bands sharpening and leveling equipment

Eric  ;D

[ppeterson]

I visited a grade HW sawmill running an LT300. They were cutting 1-1/4" and selling as 4/4.

I asked why and the answer was: We would rather saw heavy and guarentee 100% usable lumber rather than loose an occasional board due to being thin.

This got me thinking, is this the norm? Is this a trait of the small bandsaws?
They change their saws every hour. Cutting 1100 bf/hour.
Saw was climb cutting in the first 6".

Sure blows the theory of added yield out of the water.
Big time.

Comments?

ppeterson

[EZ]

To me it would make sense to change the blade at 6 or 7 hundred bf and saw all good lumber or slow down a little.
EZ

[FeltzE]

ppete,

In general you have to be very picky about keeping sharp blades on the mill and cutting at speeds within the capability of the blade with adequate feed pressure to assure good production rates without any blade deviation.

The problem is that by the time you can see a problem with the cut it's already too late! You've already cut a deviation.

When I recieved my band mill in 96 one of the teaching points was to lift the saw head just enough to clear the cut and watch the gap between the sawblade and the cant as you gig the head back looking for a uniform (not wavy) gap. Needless to say as I had learned on a circle mill previously, ... I managed achive a wavy cut very quickly pushing the sawhead at circle feed rates!  :(

If you think about it a single poor cut always reduces the quality of 2 boards. The board on each side of the cut.

I believe that the 1.5 inch band mill of any brand should be able to push 2000 bd ft (or more) of 4/4 lumber edged every 8 hrs without fail. Assuming the logs are clean, sawgrade, free of tramp metal and that the sawyer keeps sharp blades on the mill.

I'm happy with my mill! It works as advertised without many maintenance needs, it keeps on sawing. The economy of using an inexpensive band is important to me as I cut alot of residential tree service provided logs which contain a LOT of damaging tramp metal. I couldn't imagine cutting as much steel as I have and being cost efficient on a more expensive blade.  ;)

Eric

[ARKANSAWYER]

   OK let me clear up a few points.   I got a few e-mails here at the house about my post.  I will answer them all here at one time.
  
    1.   You have to remember that we all use different scales to buy logs on and even circle mills have some over run of the log scale.   Yes you can get 50 bdft from a 12" log with a band mill that you only paid for 32 bdft.  But a circle mill can cut a 7x9 tie and a board  or two from the same log and scale out 46+ bdft.  This I know for a fact as I have cut thousands of them.  Do not confuse over run of the scale with over run between band and circle blades.

    2.  Yes, I know WoodMizer has a log that they sawed up and compaired it to one sawed by a circle mill and had lots more lumber.  Yes, there was a lot of sawdust.  But the whole log just about was cut into 1x4's and no cant was taken out of the middle.  If you look at the way the boards were sawn  from the log most would be of no use.  Now had the logs been sawn for grade the WM would still have had a few more boards and possibly better grade of lumber BUT would have taken well over twice as long as the circle mill even with the best small band mill (bands under 2 inches) any one makes.

    3.   It is the cost and ability to set up any where that make band mills shine.  There are portable circle mills.  IT IS EASIER to learn to saw on a band mill and if the machine is set up right and the blade is sharp it will make good lumber.  Band mills by nature are a lot safer.  (MD's are really for softwoods)

   4.  NO I do not hate swingers and will one day own one.  But they have a use and are not for every one and the production rates they can hit can not be done all day every day and make you rich!  Small logs are just a fact of life and getting more so every day.  Most lumber produced in North America come from logs no larger then 6 inch top and 15 inch butt at tree length.

   5.  Yes I have seen the articles in the trade Mags that tell how you can get rich sawing with a bandmill.  Some of them use that fuzzy math and it does not really work out here in the real world where steel and wood collide and saw dust flys.  I make my living  sawing and saw just about every day of the week.  It is getting the logs that is the main problem you will face.  I know you are covered up with them now but wait till you really own the mill and start sawing 2,500 bdft a day.

  As for the main post that started this thread I will get back to the facts.  He needs a mill that will run day in and day out.  He needs a mill that will be repairable because they all will break down some time.  He needs a mill that will hold up to hard use day in and day out.   He needs a mill that he can afford blades for.  He needs a loader, edger, re-saw, cant hooks, chainsaw and parts, racks, lots or room, building, sheds, and many more things just laying around waiting to be needed.  Now it will all come down to him getting good logs and finding a place to go with every thing he cuts.  The best I have seen at this is Bro. Noble. His operation is running lean and making the best of what is on hand and wasting nothing that he can sell, and he sells it all.
  As for the choice that was needed to be made I will still go with the LT70 and if cutting good size hardwoods the 62 CAT would be the best bet if not electric.
ARKANSAWYER
  P.S.  The most I have said all day.
  

[Jeff]

That wasn't just a bunch a talking Arky, You had some good thinking going on there too!  ;)

[Bibbyman]

I never knowed Arky to be lost for words.  :D

[FeltzE]

Cudo's to Arky

In addition concur, yep, agree, and GCS (Good Common Sense)! 8) 8)

Eric

[VA-Sawyer]

Hey Arky,

I think all those grits are going to your brain... and making it grow !   :D

VA-Sawyer

[VA-Sawyer]

I'm thinking that the LT-70 and the 300 share a number of common parts. If you are really looking to move up to a 300 in the future, I would give extra consideration to the LT-70 as it will save a little on the learning curve down the road.
VA-Sawyer