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Completely green and completely frustrated

Started by MrRastos, October 19, 2021, 11:13:08 AM

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MrRastos

I always dreamed of have a nice woodlot and making a small living from it. Now that I have one the reality of it is somewhat different. 

My forestry background is PCT only. I'm pretty green at logging. I'm attempting to do a commercial thinning and there's at least 100 acres to do. I have a Kubota 8 ton excavator with an old Arbro 400 stroke head, a Timberjack 225 skidder, and a Kubota 80 hp 4x4 tractor with a Farma 8 ton trailer. So far I can barely manage to cut and haul one cord a day. I'm finding it takes a good paying job to afford to do this. 

Firstly, the Arbro is accurate only 75% of the time. I can't trust it. So I have to program it to cut long and then buck everything to length by hand. Somehow this needs to be resolved or I might as well put it away and use a chainsaw

Secondly, the forwarding trailer is useless. With no powered wheels, only 17 feet of reach and a severe lack of maneuverability it's turning into a 20k piece of junk. It has less clearance under it than the tractor. If anyone is thinking about one of those for more than hobby use don't do it unless you spend way more on something with extended boom powered wheels and a winch. I need a C4 porter instead. 

The skidder in a cut to length thinning can reach anywhere and yard up everything into piles, but it adds an extra step and extra work. 

Bottom line: at $69 per ton for studwood and $500 per hectare silviculture subsidy I'd be as well off to go home and build birdhouses as continue this. I never expected to get rich, but breaking even is looking more like a longshot every day. Sorry for the rant, I don't know what I'm expecting to hear here, but there's really not many people I can talk to that have any clue about any of this. 


LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

mike_belben

there are a lot of us here who have been there and feel for you buddy, you came to the right place.   you do everything the experts say and it doesnt work, you just grind yourself to death because your market is not the same as the experts market so they are only experts where they are at and theres nothing anyone can do to in the short term to change the land you are on or prices you have access to.  its frustrating.


step 1, focus on getting the arbo fixed.  step 2, find a used electric jeep winch, mount it low on the trailer with battery power from the tractor via old stick welder cables and anderson high amp connectors.  get any $15 chinesium remote control winch and i can help you wire it up if needed.  now youve got a sub $500 freewheeling winch to get a 100ft reach on either side of the forestry trailer. no, its not fast but mine will drag whole 12" dbh oak trees so itll surely bring in a CTL stem and keep you from getting the tractor or trailer all jacked up by going too far off trail.  and you only need to make 1 trip out and walk back with the log because the remote saves you walking. its a necessity.  any universal remote will work with any universal contactor.  dont worry if you find a winch that doesnt have the controller.  $65 will buy new remote and new contactor, you just need a winch motor and gear train that works. 8k rating with 3/8 cable is sufficient.


next up, how far have you searched for alternative markets to get a better rate on your fiber?  



Praise The Lord

MrRastos

Quote from: mike_belben on October 19, 2021, 11:26:10 AM
there are a lot of us here who feel for you buddy, you came to the right place.   you do everything the experts say and it doesnt work, you just grind yourself to death because your market is no the same as the experts market so they are only experts where they are at.  


step 1, focus on getting the arbo fixed.  step 2, find a used electric jeep winch, mount it low on the trailer with battery power from the tractor via old stick welder cables and anderson high amp connectors.  get any $15 chinesium remote control winch and i can help you wire it up if needed.  now youve got a sub $500 freewheeling winch to get a 100ft reach on either side of the forestry trailer.  and you only need to make 1 trip out and walk back with the log because the remote saves you walking. its a necessity.
Thank you for that. It is frustrating trying to do it right when the whole system is corrupt and based on big volume and astronomical debt.
That winch idea is promising. I think it would work even better on a small forwarder like a C4 or such.
My support for the Arbro is four hours away. They can walk me through a lot over the phone but they need a better idea of what's wrong. I've been watching the stinking thing very closely looking for slippage and any other issues and I'm coming up empty with ideas so far. Hopefully I can get it figured out soon.

In southern Nova Scotia there is only one market for studwood. They seem to pride themselves on having the lowest rates in Atlantic Canada. Why? Because they can. I do not sell logs or long length firewood. The firewood gets blocked split and delivered and logs go on my mill.

The more I think about it the more I like that winch idea. It would be extremely simple for me rig it up too. It was worth posting just for that one idea.
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

Firewoodjoe

It should all work. My forwarder only has 16 foot reach. Ground clearance can be worked around. You definitely need enough tractor to pull one. I've had two clam trailers. 10 foot reach and virtually no ground clearance. Had skids inside the wheels. It's hard work that's all I can say. I've hand cut everything from small pine and up and supported my family doing so. I just recently bought a large harvester. It's easy for sure but no more profit. Just work hard and do it for the life and not the paycheck. 🤷‍♂️

MrRastos

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on October 19, 2021, 11:51:21 AM
It should all work. My forwarder only has 16 foot reach. Ground clearance can be worked around. You definitely need enough tractor to pull one. I've had two clam trailers. 10 foot reach and virtually no ground clearance. Had skids inside the wheels. It's hard work that's all I can say. I've hand cut everything from small pine and up and supported my family doing so. I just recently bought a large harvester. It's easy for sure but no more profit. Just work hard and do it for the life and not the paycheck. 🤷‍♂️
I can work fairly hard. I just wish I could cut the learning curve some and work smarter. 
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

snowstorm

The wheel must use a encoder to get the length .. I have had a couple go bad. I toke one apart once it's fairly complex inside. Is it giving the wrong length or none at all? Could be the encoder wiring. It's small wire. Is there a module on the head? Have seen the connectors come loose. Boom cable? Or the computer or it has not been calibrated. Being a stroke head if it strokes 2 ft or whatever it is count them there is your length. All my experience has been with keto heads. They use a encoder but it runs off the tracks instead of a wheel

mike_belben

Quotebased on big volume and astronomical debt.



that is exactly the thing i saw when i peered around the corner and turned back.  so its just like every other commodities market the public is permitted to dabble in.  you guys in novia scotia seem pretty trapped by the irving monopoly from what i gather.. ?? 

you may wanna look into @stephenalford threads.  he is from PEI and similar to you, i believe he has moved on to more profitable types of woods work with some of the same equipment.

Praise The Lord

mudfarmer

One cord a day? When you say cut and hauled how far are you hauling? Leaving logs on fwd trailer and pulling with truck or transferring logs to something else? What is avg dbh of the wood? How long are your skids on average? How are your roads/trails?

What is your work flow like? I am picturing felling with excavator, bunching to trailside piles with skidder and then loading up farma trailer from the piles but sounds like this may not be the case if boom reach of the trailer is holding you back.

I guess like most other things, identify the steps that are taking the longest and think about what could change to speed them up. You certainly have the right equipment to put out some wood. Definitely fix the arbro first or sell it if you are trying to make a payment by cutting wood. You have to buck by hand anyway so a bank note on that machine would be putting food on the table instead.

I am a few years behind you, wishing best of luck.

MrRastos

Quote from: snowstorm on October 19, 2021, 12:25:23 PM
The wheel must use a encoder to get the length .. I have had a couple go bad. I toke one apart once it's fairly complex inside. Is it giving the wrong length or none at all? Could be the encoder wiring. It's small wire. Is there a module on the head? Have seen the connectors come loose. Boom cable? Or the computer or it has not been calibrated. Being a stroke head if it strokes 2 ft or whatever it is count them there is your length. All my experience has been with keto heads. They use a encoder but it runs off the tracks instead of a wheel
It uses magnetic sensors and depressions along the length of the stroke boom. What's weird is most of the time it cuts dead accurate. It's the other 25 percent that isn't acceptable. Always 4-8 inches too short.
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

MrRastos

Quote from: mudfarmer on October 19, 2021, 12:59:54 PM
One cord a day? When you say cut and hauled how far are you hauling? Leaving logs on fwd trailer and pulling with truck or transferring logs to something else? What is avg dbh of the wood? How long are your skids on average? How are your roads/trails?

What is your work flow like? I am picturing felling with excavator, bunching to trailside piles with skidder and then loading up farma trailer from the piles but sounds like this may not be the case if boom reach of the trailer is holding you back.

I guess like most other things, identify the steps that are taking the longest and think about what could change to speed them up. You certainly have the right equipment to put out some wood. Definitely fix the arbro first or sell it if you are trying to make a payment by cutting wood. You have to buck by hand anyway so a bank note on that machine would be putting food on the table instead.

I am a few years behind you, wishing best of luck.
I have no payments on anything. I will not go into debt to pursue what is amounting to a glorified hobby. 
The simple fact of the matter is no matter what I have for gear I don't know what I'm doing and it will take time to learn by myself. After having lunch and cooling off a bit I've decided to remind myself that words like "profit" shouldn't even be in my vocabulary at this point. I took a seasonal job working for someone else for the time being anyway. It will all come together with patience I guess.
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

mike_belben

well youre in real good shape to weather the storm and have the right mentality for it too.  good on you for that. give it time for thought.  youve got enough info to see the issues now, and adjust around them over time. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

here this is about what you can expect from the cheapest 8k truck winch mounted head high.  awful slow, but it will bring you logs that are just out of reach a bit faster than you can walk back to the house to fetch the skidder.  if i cut that top off it would bring the entire stem to me.  im just firewood thinning. 

Smittybilt XRC8 capability - YouTube
Praise The Lord

MrRastos

Quote from: mike_belben on October 19, 2021, 01:26:12 PM
here this is about what you can expect from the cheapest 8k truck winch mounted head high.  awful slow, but it will bring you logs that are just out of reach a bit faster than you can walk back to the house to fetch the skidder.  if i cut that top off it would bring the entire stem to me.  im just firewood thinning.

Smittybilt XRC8 capability - YouTube
That's a very good idea and it beats getting the skidder and dragging 9/16 cable to fetch three pieces of 8 foot studwood that are too much to carry by hand for 50 feet.

If my Arbro would cut accurate and I geared up a winch on my trailer it would eliminate many difficulties and steps and likely triple my productivity. 
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

Dom

I assumed you were in the area, South NS is a nice spot.
All I can really say is learn your equipment, and take it by steps. Probably best to work the machine a few hours only at first and increase seat time as you're more comfortable. After an hour of cutting, review the service manuals and learn your machine. We used to laugh at a fellow that bought a brand new harvester (Rottne with logmax head) and only ran it for 1 hour a day the first week. By the end of the first month he was doing full shifts, and had no downtime. Pretty impressive for someone that had never sat in a machine before. 

Also, as soon as something is not working properly, stop and fix it. Don't run it until it's fixed. In North America we're bad for "get it done" no matter what. Sometimes that leads to either more work later, or quality problems. In Asia they tend to stop right away and fix the issue even though that may delay a few things for a while. This is easier to say than do. 

You found the right spot, lots of knowledge in the group. The others will likely be able to assist with your mechanical issues. 

Joe Hillmann

How long have you been using the equipment in the woods?  A few days or a few months? 

When I first built my winch on my tractor and took it to the woods it was an absolute joke what I could do with it.  After the first day or two I was ready to give up because nothing was working and I spent more time getting the tractor unstuck than pulling logs.  But after 6 months of doing it every evening after work I am very confident in being able to pull out anything I have enough snatch blocks to handle, and I drive the tractor through MUCH worse conditions than I did at first and have no concern of getting it stuck.

My point is, it may just be a steep learning curve to get production out of your machines.  The same is true about most machines I have ever used.  The first few hours are all stress and you wonder if it is even capable of doing what you want it to do.  But after a couple hundred hours you can make it do exactly what you want it to without even giving it your full attention for the most part.

HemlockKing

Is the "one market"studwood you're referring too happen to be freeman lumber? lol 
I'm not in the forestry industry but I live in sou western NS, all I hear about is freeman. 
A1

MrRastos

Quote from: HemlockKing on October 19, 2021, 04:16:12 PM
Is the "one market"studwood you're referring too happen to be freeman lumber? lol
I'm not in the forestry industry but I live in sou western NS, all I hear about is freeman.
Yep. They pretty well have a monopoly at this end of the province. They set their prices just low enough that it doesn't pay to truck the wood farther.

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on October 19, 2021, 02:51:56 PM
How long have you been using the equipment in the woods?  A few days or a few months?  

Altogether I haven't got a lot of time in yet on any of it. I'd say about three weeks of steady cutting altogether with the Arbro. Maybe a couple months on the tractor and trailer. The skidder mainly gets used as a portable winch. Not much time in that at all. I'm still learning the limits of what kind of ground it can cover without going upside down.

Quote from: Dom on October 19, 2021, 02:43:35 PM


Also, as soon as something is not working properly, stop and fix it. Don't run it until it's fixed. 
Good advice. I'm trying to troubleshoot the Arbro as I'm using it so I can give my supporting dealer more to go on. Plus I really want to at least finish a truckload so I don't have wood sitting around too long drying out and losing money. After that it's getting fixed properly. Hopefully in the meantime I'll get a better idea of what the problem actually is. 
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

MrRastos

Quote from: mike_belben on October 19, 2021, 12:59:24 PM
Quotebased on big volume and astronomical debt.



that is exactly the thing i saw when i peered around the corner and turned back.  so its just like every other commodities market the public is permitted to dabble in.  you guys in novia scotia seem pretty trapped by the irving monopoly from what i gather.. ??

you may wanna look into @stephenalford threads.  he is from PEI and similar to you, i believe he has moved on to more profitable types of woods work with some of the same equipment.
Irving is more of a New Brunswick problem.
In the late 90s and early 2000 we had Irving and Bowater cutting on land they got from the government for pennies or government land they paid pennies for stumpage on. Bowater closed down operations along with their pulp mill years ago. Irving packed up and left too once they cleaned everything they could get their hands on.
The government of course bought back the land for much more than those companies paid. They sold the public on the idea of "community forestry" which turned out to be a bunch of nonsense to appease the public. What they did was turn over management to a cartel of mills known as Westfor. They removed the word "clearcut" from their vocabulary and replaced it with terms like "20% variable retention" once again to appease Joe Public. The little guy was shut out, and now the mills get their pick of public land while the private woodlot owners get pennies for their wood. We have co-ops and associations that are helpful, but they can only do so much.

On my Farma log loader there are brackets already in place from the factory to add a winch. They sell a hydraulic winch with a wireless remote. I imagine it's a lot more money than an electric recovery winch, but in the long run may be a better and more dependable option. I'm looking into it. 
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

grabber green

Do you have a truck haul road through this 100 acres? Do you realize you can thin this track of wood (if you watch what your doing ) with minimal damage to the trees your keeping ,by hand falling and skidding tree length to the landing ,deck or yard ,whatever you wan't to call it,with your skidder. Buck the trees up there and load on the truck. 100 acres won't last long and you will be looking for more timber. 

MrRastos

Quote from: grabber green on October 19, 2021, 05:30:09 PM
Do you have a truck haul road through this 100 acres? Do you realize you can thin this track of wood (if you watch what your doing ) with minimal damage to the trees your keeping ,by hand falling and skidding tree length to the landing ,deck or yard ,whatever you wan't to call it,with your skidder. Buck the trees up there and load on the truck. 100 acres won't last long and you will be looking for more timber.
There's more timber on the other 200 acres that doesn't need thinning. My concern now is to thin the 100 that needs it so I'll have something there worth cutting in 20-30 years. There is no truck road through the majority of what needs to be done. The wood needs to be forwarded. 
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

grabber green

If you are not going to build a haul road for a truck and the trips for the  forwarder are long and take a lot of time. It sounds like if your going to run enough wood to make a living in a normal work day  you will need an actual full size  forwarder (not a farm tractor) and to feed that your going to need a full size feller buncher (not a mini x). The equipment you have can certainly run wood and is perfect for some people in the high dollar and/or rare wood market, as hobbyist and guys that can live on small income or have other means besides just loggin for income.. Your key thing you said was that you wanted to make a living with 69 dollars a ton.

MrRastos

Quote from: grabber green on October 19, 2021, 06:14:42 PM
If you are not going to build a haul road for a truck and the trips for the  forwarder are long and take a lot of time. It sounds like if your going to run enough wood to make a living in a normal work day  you will need an actual full size  forwarder (not a farm tractor) and to feed that your going to need a full size feller buncher (not a mini x). The equipment you have can certainly run wood and is perfect for some people in the high dollar and/or rare wood market, as hobbyist and guys that can live on small income or have other means besides just loggin for income.. Your key thing you said was that you wanted to make a living with 69 dollars a ton.
It's rather difficult to explain the layout of the land here, but there is a truck road. It just doesn't run near the majority of the work I'm currently doing. As for making a living on what I'm doing, I should have explained that more clearly. The living will hopefully come later, and I'm trying to get set up so I only need a very small income at that time. I have another job for now. In the meantime I'm very skeptical of going any bigger than I am now. Around here the economics dictate to either go buy a couple million worth of Ponsse gear and contract to a mill or stay super small. My biggest problem right now is my inexperience.

Once the trailer is loaded I can get it out to where a truck can get at it in about fifteen minutes.
LT50G38 Wide, Hakki 1x37 easy, 1994 Kubota M8030, Farma 5.3- T8, Timberjack 225D, Kubota KX080-4 with Arbro 400 stroke head, IH 444 diesel, IH 434 gas, Volvo clunker dump truck, 2003 F550, 562 Husky, 555 Husky, 272 Husky. 261cm arctic Stihl.

mike_belben

Pulp pays $32ish/T or less delivered to bowater down here and thats the bulk of some operations but youve gotta be dialed precisely for that work and cover a lot of ground.  Anyone who isnt will be ground up and spit out.  

To make a living on low revenue youve got to keep low expenses and it sounds like youve done a great job on that part.  So dont get too down on yourself yet.  In time youll get things dialed better.  

Are you maxxing out that trailer at 1cord? 
Praise The Lord

Firewoodjoe

Your talking a 4x4x8 cord right? I just seen your pics in the other post and that's 5-10 cord wood in a 8 hour day with all the equipment. I had to have 40 cord a week and cut 4 stick red pine with a chainsaw and small forwarder. I'm not trying to be a **ck so please don't take it wrong. I'm just trying to figure out a way to help you. Think simple and and set that processor so it cuts in between a little short and a little long and send it. Like if the wood needs to be 8 foot 4 inches (that's four inch trim around here) if I cut 8'1" to 8'6" it's good for the mill. Cable skid hole trees out to a closer location for the trailer to get to then buck it up there. No I didn't read all the post in detail from the other responses so I may have suggested a repeat. Looking good just get your groove. 

grabber green

I hear ya on not buying more expensive equipment based on our uncertain future. When I first started as a kid 
I skidded and loaded my C60 with a ford 4000 farm tractor , there were plenty of small local sawmills and pulpwood markets to sell to. As the years moved on they started dissapearing . I even set up my own stick mill for ties and house log cants .The logging equipment had to get larger . Small tracts of logs from individuals began to dry up. After that we had to start contracting on large company land, sometimes trucking logs out of the state. Most small loggers have wen't out of business around here now.

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