Just joined the site recently and wanted to say hello. I am currently in the process of rebuilding a Lane #1 steam powered sawmill. The site work is done, and the boiler and steam engine just touched down last week. Still have lots to do and as soon as I get the hang of posting photos I will post some to the site. Until then just cleaning, sandblasting, and painting some of the pieces. More to follow.
Brian
I guess i been a member here long enough to welcome ya, anyway welcome . looking forward to the build. and we love pics.
Very interested in seeing steam powered anything.
Thank you.
Brian
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
Click on your user name and the profile will show up there, and you can update it with info and your location. Very helpful.
Pics tutorial found on the "Home" page, near the bottom.
Look forward to your re-build. Sounds very interesting.
How did you come about getting to re-build a steam powered Lane?
i'll be watchen this...
I'm a steam engine builder and collector...
Where are you from ?
Very interesting project. Looking forward to your progress and pictures. Welcome aboard.
Hello metalshaper, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum. :)
Welcome to the FF. Can't wait to see pics! Where are you located?
Dave C
Welcome to the Forestry Forum. We all love pictures. :)
metalshaper,welcome to the forum. There is another member that likes steam too!!!
You got a lot of attention with the post! Now bring on those pictures. Look forward following your work.
Shaper, welcome mate, you must be up here in the northeast, Lane mills seldom traveled far from home. I had a steam powered mill for many years and enjoyed it. Had an 8 1/2" x 11" ajax engine on top of a AB Farquar portable boiler. I would run the mill with a Cat. diesel in the winter and the steamer in the summer. Looking forward to your project. Frank C.
welcome to the forum. never ran a steam engine but have mess with a few fairbanks bot hit-n-miss and governed good luck and keep us up dated :)
Welcome to the forum metalshaper. I love steam and hit and miss engines
alain
thanks to everyone for the welcome. I am located in East Haddam, Connecticut, and am just figuring out how to navigate this site. I have some photos of the dis assembly and the move to my location and will get them up soon, hang in there while I figure out how to get it done.
Welcome to the Forum, Metalshaper.
You know I never thought about hooking up one of my engines to the mill
I guess that would not be working but playing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Sawmill_behind_tractor.JPG)
Kbeitz,
That is a very cool looking steam tractor.Nice place you have their,looks like you know how to have fun.
Mick
Anything with steam gets my attention! Welcome to the forum, looking forward to seeing your pics :)
Hey metalshaper,
Welcome aboard, I too am a steam sawyer. It's always good to hear about another circle mill coming back to life.
I am anxious to see some pictures and hear more details about your mill. What can you tell us about your engine?
You are in good hands here. This sight is full of individuals who are ready to help you in any way with their veritable storehouse of knowledge. I am no expert but I have a little experience and I'm looking forward to your story.
Alan
Welcome, 'shaper! Sounds like a great project, looking forward to following your progress.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/steam_engine.jpg)
First time posting photos. This is the steam engine as it was found. More pictures to follow.
Brian
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/sawmill.jpg)
Here is a shot of the Lane sawmill that was powered by the steam engine. It is a Lane #1 in great shape.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/governor.jpg)
Pickering ball governor, with sawyers lever, and speed ball ranger. These were made in Portland, Connecticut and used all over the world. Portland is just 20 minutes from my location.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/engine_loading.jpg)
Loading day. Pulling boiler and steam engine onto trailer with a chain come a long.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/engine.jpg)
Unloading the whole assembly at the farm.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/20150703_143445.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40253/20150703_140009.jpg)
Im glad thats not mine , because i cant afford to work on it , but i would love to get to work on it , and bring that beast back to life. i just love to tinker with old iron.
So cool. Brings back members when I was a kid that I used to play in my Grandpaw's Cotton Gin. It was powered by a two cly diesel Fairbank. Belts ran all over the place. Sad part was, it ran a saw mill too which killed my grandpaw. Momma was only 13 at the time. The engine still stands in place as it did almost 100 years ago.
Very cool! thanks for taking time to post.
Brian, your engine is almost a dead ringer for mine except mine was on wheels. I bought mine from Willie Zagray in Colchester Ct. back in the eighties, it was used on a local sawmill. Stan Zagray had a foundry and manufactured sawmills I think he called them Amsted mills or something like that. Who made your boiler I can't quite make out the name. Be carefull those boilers are now about 100 years old and theirs nothing more vicious than high pressure steam. Frank C.
Nice story,nice pictures.
Thats some serous Hp...
Whats it going to be? A saw dust burner ?
You got some real weight there.
Guessing 50-75 Hp ?
How big is the boiler going to be ?
Following - love steam.
Welcome metalshaper! What is the size of the engine? Boiler looks big enough for 50+ hp. That will be a lot of torque available when you get it going. 8)
Thanks for the pictures metalshaper.
The mill looks to be in very good condition. I'm trying to figure out the engine. It's a nice heavy center crank but not real familiar looking. The boiler doesn't look real big, and no steam dome either. When you get a chance maybe you can get some measurements and we can guess at the HP.... Bore and stroke, and number, length, and diameter of the boiler tubes. Maybe the size of the firebox too. I'd like to know the diameter and face of the flywheels too. Looks like about a 2" Pickering Ball Ranger, that is what I have on my Leffel, one of the best governors, in its day.
I hope the inside of the boiler is in good condition. You will need to look at all the stay bolts and ultrasound the plates before you put a fire in it. Looks like you are going to need a few other items like injectors and water glass and maybe some re piping. Be sure to use all double strength black iron pipe... No galvanized.
I wish I could be there to help you go over it. Make friends with some steam guys up there and I'm sure you can get all the help you need for an inspection.
There are some good old engine sites out there too like Harry's old Engine and Smokstak.
Alan
I know nothing about steam engines.What is the method for testing old equipment before putting it back in service?
I don't need a lengthy lesson,just wondering how you steamers keep it safe.
Thanks,Mick
Boiler Hydrostatic Testing
There is a speical water pump most are hand pumps that pump water into the boiler.
The boiler and process lines must be completely vented in order to fill them with water. If your running like 75 psi them you would pump like 150psi water into the boiler.
Or 1½ times the design pressure.
the water cant explode.
1. Open the steam drum vent valve and gag the safety valves in accordance with safety valve manufacturer's recommendations. In lieu of gagging, the safety valves may be removed and replaced with test plugs or blind flanges.
2. Open the vents on the interconnecting piping. Close steam outlet valve.
3. Isolate pressure switches, gauge glasses or control components that are not intended to be subjected to a hydrostatic test.
4. Fill the system with treated water in accordance with recommendations from the Clients water treatment consultant. (Refer to section entitled "Water treatment
Considerations". The test water temperature range must be 70°F minimum to 120°F maximum (100°F to 120°F water temperature is preferred). Care should be taken so that all air is vented while the equipment is being filled. Fill the equipment until water overflows the vent, then close the vent.
5. Apply pressure slowly. The recommended rate of pressure increase is less than 50 psi per minute. Proper control must be maintained so that pressure does not
exceed the desired setting of the local steam boiler inspecting agency. Do not subject any pressure part to more than 1½ times the design pressure rating of any
component.
6. When the proper test pressure is reached, inspection in accordance with the test objective can begin. Examine the system for any leaks. If no leaks are visible,
hold the system in a pressurized static condition for a period long enough to satisfy the code requirement.
7. Upon completion of the test, release pressure slowly through a small drain valve. Then fully open vents and drains when the pressure drops to 20 psig. Particular
8. If temporary handhole or manway gaskets were used for the test, they should be replaced with regular service gaskets before readying the unit for operation.
Gaskets should never be reused. Replace gage glass if necessary and make sure that the gage cocks are open. Remove all blanks or gags from safety valves and install relief valves, if removed.
9. Additional inspection at this time by the Authorized inspector will determine whether the installation including piping arrangements, valve gauges and controls
and other equipment on the unit meets Code and/or other jurisdictional requirements.
10. Refer to the "Summary of valve positions" for recommended positioning of the various valves during hydrostatic testing.
Don't know much about steam boilers either, but I'm guessing that's what Steamsawyer was talking about with visual and ultrasound inspection?
Visual picks up the obvious corrosion or cracks, and an ultrasound finds the thin spots and hidden cracks.
I remember them doing a survey of an oilfield FPSO (converted supertanker moored offshore) when I was working for a local oil company. Although it looked OK, some of the steel plates had almost corroded though. Well one actually had, and sprung a small leak. Which is what led to the survey... They ended up putting lot of patches on the old tub. :D
Quote from: Kbeitz on July 23, 2015, 06:49:20 AM
Boiler Hydrostatic Testing
There is a speical water pump most are hand pumps that pump water into the boiler.
The boiler and process lines must be completely vented in order to fill them with water. If your running like 75 psi them you would pump like 150psi water into the boiler.
Or 1½ times the design pressure.
the water cant explode.
1. Open the steam drum vent valve and gag the safety valves in accordance with safety valve manufacturer's recommendations. In lieu of gagging, the safety valves may be removed and replaced with test plugs or blind flanges.
2. Open the vents on the interconnecting piping. Close steam outlet valve.
3. Isolate pressure switches, gauge glasses or control components that are not intended to be subjected to a hydrostatic test.
4. Fill the system with treated water in accordance with recommendations from the Clients water treatment consultant. (Refer to section entitled "Water treatment
Considerations". The test water temperature range must be 70°F minimum to 120°F maximum (100°F to 120°F water temperature is preferred). Care should be taken so that all air is vented while the equipment is being filled. Fill the equipment until water overflows the vent, then close the vent.
5. Apply pressure slowly. The recommended rate of pressure increase is less than 50 psi per minute. Proper control must be maintained so that pressure does not
exceed the desired setting of the local steam boiler inspecting agency. Do not subject any pressure part to more than 1½ times the design pressure rating of any
component.
6. When the proper test pressure is reached, inspection in accordance with the test objective can begin. Examine the system for any leaks. If no leaks are visible,
hold the system in a pressurized static condition for a period long enough to satisfy the code requirement.
7. Upon completion of the test, release pressure slowly through a small drain valve. Then fully open vents and drains when the pressure drops to 20 psig. Particular
8. If temporary handhole or manway gaskets were used for the test, they should be replaced with regular service gaskets before readying the unit for operation.
Gaskets should never be reused. Replace gage glass if necessary and make sure that the gage cocks are open. Remove all blanks or gags from safety valves and install relief valves, if removed.
9. Additional inspection at this time by the Authorized inspector will determine whether the installation including piping arrangements, valve gauges and controls
and other equipment on the unit meets Code and/or other jurisdictional requirements.
10. Refer to the "Summary of valve positions" for recommended positioning of the various valves during hydrostatic testing.
You must have a little background in boilers. ;D Used to run a steam generator for Louisiana's first coal fired power plant. 30+ years in that field. The boiler was rated at 4.4 mp per hour. 620 MW's max. What you posted was the way we tested that unit every year.
Someone else posted about high pressure steam and the danger of it. Yes, very high danger. I know from first hand having a chiller blow up on me at 2400 psi. Almost knocked me off the 9th floor of the boiler.
Steam under pressure is different than air under pressure. Air tanks eventally get thin spots and pin holes, the air will leak out dropping the pressure. With steam if a thin spot starts to leak it lowers the pressure a little and the water flashes to steam in a huge volume and will rend the boiler shell violently. Massive amounts of energy are stored in the water under pressure. Steam boilers can sustain a 300/400 % overload for a short time due to the energy stored that's what makes them good mill power as they can regenerate on the lighter loads like gigback. Frank C.
First of all let me say thanks to everyone for all the responses. I am very close to the Zagray farm and the guy who I got this engine from was very good friends with Willy Zagray. They still have a show there a few times a year and they run their Lane mill with a diesel engine now. I will get more photos and information up soon. For everyone asking this is a Farquhar boiler and engine. I believe it is a 65 hp unit but will get bore and stroke info soon.
Brian
Kbeitz,
Thanks for the explanation of boiler testing.
Metalshaper,
That is a beautiful steam engine,good luck with the Lane mill.
The danger is that one drop of water expands 16.000 times when turning to steam
If you get a low water condition in your boiler and splash the hot metal by adding water or
moving the boiler the water will flash off the hot metal and the game is over.
Have more than one pump and more than one safety water level control.
And I always like two pop off valves.
Good advice Kbeitz, I had two pop off valves one big one set to the max and a smaller one set a little lower to warn me. I had a small warren duplex steam pump as a backup to my injector for feed. Its good the boiler has a removable ash pan as one has to climb into the fire box to roll and bead tubes, too tight for me to fit through the door. Frank C.
I have a little Giant that I'm replaceing the tubes in right now.
Boiler work is hard and dirty.
still taking things slowly and working on the steam engine/boiler when I have time. The farm and animals take up a lot of the day in addition to my old WW2 and willys jeep restorations. I have been oiling everything for the past week and today gave a good tug on the flywheel and everything rolled over as it should. This unit was hydro tested last time it was running and had no problems. I still have a bunch of stuff to replace but would like to hydro again this summer. Next week the rest of the sawmill will be getting loaded and I will post more photos then.
Brian
I would have the staybolts tested with a hammer.
It was and is used to test for broken stay rods in vessel, especially a boiler or heater. You have to have access to both end of the stays. You watch the rebound of one hammer to the impact of the other hammer it takes 2 hammers.
To hammer test properly you need to use a 10 ounce ball peen hammer. The area under scrutiny is tapped, not whacked, with the hammer. You are then listening to the sound of metal. If detriorated the metal will not have a clear sound,where as "good" metal will ring true. You also apply the technic to riveted joints. a busted rivet will sound dull when tapped. Of course you have to develop an ear for it so you should practice on sound and deteriorated metal. Highly subjective but quick. Suspect area should be further investigated as you should not be too quick on judgement.
Thanks for all the input Kbeitz, I will test the staybolts and rivets with a hammer as you described. I have riveted everything from aircraft parts to heavy truck frames for years so I am sure my ears will be tuned into the correct sound. Any and all advice is always appreciated. Thanks again.
Brian
Anyone interested in steam google the New England wireless and steam museum in Greenwich RI. interesting place to visit, They have an old steam engine of mine on display, A Granger inverted Vee two cylinder. Funny story a friend of mine and collector was sitting in the barber chair and saw the engine go by on a car carrier and thought it was heading for the scrap yard just about messed himself to chase it. Frank C.
I picked up one of these on sale...
http://www.harborfreight.com/Digital-Inspection-Camera-62359.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiMzI4NjE2OTkiLCJza3UiOiI2MjM1OSIsImlzIjoiNjQuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0AIjoiMTEwODQifQ%3D%3D%0D%0A&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2715b&utm_source=1021&cid=mEmail_s1021_c2715b
Real handy for looking inside to get visual on stay bolts, waste on rivet heads, and build up on tubes and such.
Alan
alan
Would be great if you would make a link out of the loooong url you posted. Helps with the over and off the monitor screen problem.
Maybe that doesn't happen with all computers, and would like to find a way that it doesn't on mine.
Use square brackets [url = .....] name [/url ] for a format (remove spaces shown between the brackets and put the link where the ..... is shown).
Sorry beenthere. :( I'm not sure what you mean... What I don't know about computers would fill a really big book. :-\
While I'm back on here.
Brian... When you get the hand holes open and clean, be sure to replace all the gaskets. They should never be reused. Don't let anyone talk you into making your own gaskets out of the red rubber material or anything else, buy the right thing, real hand hole gaskets. Several companies out there can supply what you need. I use Topog-E brand and they work very well, they are only a few dollars each. I keep plenty of spares on hand, usually half dozen per hole size. It's bad enough having to shut down and change a gasket much less having to wait on UPS to bring them when you need them right now.
Alan
Here is your link, embedded with just the word Digital Inspection Camera. You can click the "Quote" for this post to see how the long link is embedded between the square brackets. It's a neat way to link to things, and see it often when Magicman uses this technique.
Digital Inspection Camera (http://www.harborfreight.com/Digital-Inspection-Camera-62359.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiMzI4NjE2OTkiLCJza3UiOiI2MjM1OSIsImlzIjoiNjQuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0AIjoiMTEwODQifQ%3D%3D%0D%0A&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2715b&utm_source=1021&cid=mEmail_s1021_c2715b)
That inspection camera looks pretty neat. How well does it work and can you post some pics taken by this camera?
Does it record on an SD card or some other way for downloading onto your computer?
alan,
I do plan on replacing a lot of things on the boiler, any good places that you can recommend for buying gaskets and such?
In addition to hand hole gaskets I need to make some for valve chest and piston. What type of material is used for gaskets
subjected to steam? Also any advice on feed water pumps? One is there and the other is missing and this is one area that I
want to make sure is correct and working perfectly. I have to replace all the piping anyway as it is schedule 40 and want to work
in the feed water pumps as I am doing the new schedule 80 piping.
Brian
Hey Brian,
I use Stellar Industries for my gaskets http://www.stellaritco.com/ I always order by phone. I can't remember but I think the man I talk to is Tom. He is familiar with the antique equipment and can point you in the right direction. He should be able to help you with steam rated gasket material and other fittings like valves and fusible plugs.
Feed water is the most important thing once you are underway. You should have no less than two ways to feed. I have two injectors on my mill engine, and an injector a hand pump and engine driven pump in my boat.
Here is a link to Smokstak. This is a extensive site with lots of helpful antique engine folks that do just what you are doing. Join in and post some questions there.
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7
Thanks for the help beenthere.
The cheep camera I have doesn't record but they have a more valuable one that does and it comes with a wire to hook up to your coputer. It works well for looking inside though.
Alan
The best thing for steam chest gaskets is the old sheet asbestos gasket in a roll. Its hard to find now everyone is running scared when you mention asbestos. Auto parts stores sell roll gasket material for exhaust systems that should work. The old timers used to mix grafite powder with cylinder oil as a thick paste and put it on gaskets to make removal easier, it looks and feels like never seize. Frank C.
thanks for the links, I am tracking down some gasket material now. As far a feed water I have a Penberthy on one side
of the engine now and the other side was plumbed for another but it is missing. Just trying to feel out what guys are
using for feed water pumps and which are the best and least troublesome. Also I was wondering about amount of feed water
to have available. Has anyone ever figured out how much water they are using per hour, per day, when sawing? I plan on
having a very large tank buried underground for feed water. The original mill that this engine came from had a large 2000
gallon tank for feed water. Just trying to get a very rough idea of the amount of water used on an average day sawing.
An injector is very handy especially to add boiler chemicals, I had an old Metropolitan injector that served me well, its pickup was in a 30 gal. drum. Its good form to have two different types of feed like an injector and a steam pump or injector and a good hand pump as back up. Theirs a minimum pressure injectors will work. When I ran my boiler city main water pressure was higher than boiler pressure so that was my failsafe supply. Many folks have problems with injectors not working that is due to the check valve between the injector and boiler leaking and heating up the injector. I put a ball valve just after the injector to close when your done feeding. If I was doing it over I would have a dug pit under the ash pan and a sliding door under the ash pan so the fire could be dumped in an emergency. It would also make it easier to get in the firebox to replace tubes. The hardest work my boiler had to do was feed a 35hp Copus steam turbine to run a shingle mill, if the pressure dropped 5 lb. I could tell on the saw, the reciprocating engine was much easier on the boiler. Frank C.
thanks for the info bandmiller2. Any ideas on where to find a hand pump these days.
Are they still made new, or do I have to find an old one and perhaps rebuild it.
"If I were doing it over" is a great sentence. Since you have been sawing with steam for a while
I would be interested in anything you would do differently now. I have a blank sawmill pad cleared and
leveled right now that is multi layered. Plenty of space to do anything. I am going to get the husk set up
first and then move in the boiler/engine. Any ideas are welcome.
Brian
Trates surpluss gets them in every so often.
570-742-2101 ask for Gary. Tell them Keven sent you and to give you a deal...
Brian, the hand pump would likely only be a backup to your injector or used to hydrotest. A hydraulic or pneumatic cylinder and a couple of check valves with a handle will work. Will you have electric at your mill site, if so that will open many doors and make life easier. Also easier if you have well or main water available for initial fill and you won't have to lug water. You want good water for the boiler preferably something you would drink, our water tends to be on the acid side I always added a little soda ash to the feed water to keep it neutral. If you can find old steam engineering books their helpful Audels, and the Croft power plant series are very good modern ones not so. Frank C.
Latest additions to the sawmill. Still working on getting the sawmill up and running but couldn't pass up a chance on some old equipment. The Yates 282 Bandsaw was often used along with the sawmill . The circle mill would make the cants and the bandsaw would resaw them. With the thinner kerf there was more lumber output. Maybe and extra board or two out of each cant.
Hope you enjoy seeing the old machines.
Brian
https://youtu.be/ANqEUMzmTP4
Just WOW....
I bet that bandsaw blade will be salty...
Watch out for them square heads. They like to kick.
+1 on the WOW! Can't wait to see these running. I commend you for saving these from the scrap heap!
Nice score! That resaw will be awesome once restored. I've seen one in action.....marvelous.
P.B. Yates Machine Company was the name chosen in 1916 to succeed the Berlin Machine Works. I have owned several Berlin machines, and currently own quite a few Yates American machines, but never a Yates. They became Yates American in the merge of 1925 with American Wood Working Machine Co..
I'll be looking forward to a video of it running some day.
Brian, I can see it now CT. sawmill museum. That old machinery is rock solid if restored will run for several generations. Frank C.
Metal shaper, enjoy seeing your posts again. Didn't know the 1sm was a chair style carriage so must be a rack drive also. I have all the iron from a chair style no. 1 chase. Keep up the good work. Doug
That's some nice old iron, thanks for posting up. Reminds me of this huge jointer my Dad had when I was a kid, it had to be 18" or 24" – I think it was used in a paper mill, maybe to square off the ends of huge rolls of paper? – Dad was a mech engr in papermills and a part-time cabinetmaker, and I guess he wanted to convert the huge jointer to use for woodworking but never did. When parents split up and sold the house, the machine was donated to the guys at the landfill who scrapped it, I guess...it was a bear just to break it down into pieces small enough that my Dad and I could manage to lift them...
Glad to hear there are others out there like myself that love the old machinery. Each piece will get restored back to working condition as time allows. Will keep you posted on the progress.
Frank, your vision is spot on. Been trying for a while now to get my 501c3 status and turn this operation into a non profit so I can continue to acquire and use this old equipment and educate the public at the same time. If anyone knows a good lawyer, who is familiar with setting up 501's please let me know. Can't seem to find anyone to help who has the same vision as guys like us.
Brian, you could try calling the "New England wireless and steam museum" in Greenwich RI. They may be able to steer you in the right direction, hopefully your not considered competition, they have been around a long time and you probably have been to their steam ups. Frank C.
Good idea Frank. I know the guys over there very well, but they are in Rhode Island so the people they used to get set up can't help me here in Connecticut for some reason. I am really digging for someone to help me get set up and am very surprised it is taking so long to find anyone who wants to do anything. Have had a few false starts but can't get anything to stick. Working on the mill again this weekend, hopefully will have a few more photos or videos to share.
Brian