I am interested in buying some land in northeastern PA to build a vacation cabin on. I have never bought raw land before SO....
How do I buy raw land properly? What should I look for? Resources available for information, both in books and/or people? Questions to ask the seller/listing agent? What experiences have you had with buying land? What unexpected costs came up that could have been avoided by asking the right questions?
Thanks for all the help!
I searched the forum for some answers and got the following: have a proper survey completed and get a good perc test done.
Realtors thru the internet is the easiest way to search. Try land or farms. Larger parcels seem to sell slow unless a developer wants it and they do not usually want to buy to far away from developed areas. rivers and valleys are nice, maybe make your own pond. We looked for almost a year then a seller cut their price a lot and we picked up 75 acres for 40 grand.
I'm not sure if this is in the area of the current natural gas boom, but I'd think it would be wise to ask about the mineral rights of any parcel you become interested in.
RynSmith, this area is on the edge of the Marcellus Shale which is where all the natural gas in PA is coming from. I will definitely ask about the mineral rights and make sure they are mine when I buy. Any other rights I should know about?
Holmes, good to know that land sells slowly that way I won't be pressured to buy quickly out of fear someone is gonna scoop it up, like in a housing market. Any particular realtor brokerage I should use/avoid?
Realtors and brokers are just like foresters. Most of them are good. If you consult and deal with, a,your, realtor they work for you. If you call the realtors that are selling the land they work for the land owner.
Quote from: Holmes on November 18, 2012, 10:25:30 AM
... We looked for almost a year then a seller cut their price a lot and we picked up 75 acres for 40 grand.
If that land is usable for anything at all or very scenic, That's my kind of deal! I would jump all over that price around here. I paid almost 3 times that for my 60 acres of hills with trees on them!
I would always be interested in, and would fully understand, the zoning of any raw land. Find out how many dwellings are possible and find out if the land is can be subdivided. The more the mineral interest, the more a property can be cut up and resold as smaller units, the higher the price. Check any easements that are attached to the property (Can they run a gas line through it, etc.). Find out if there are any type of building restrictions. Is electricity already available to the parcel or will you have to bring it in?
Have a good idea what you want to do with the land. Cabin in the woods, farming, hunting camp, timber production, wildlife protection, etc.
Finally, although you may well be a good distance from your nearest neighbors, try to find out what they are like. Avoid religous cults, prisons, and Forestry Forum members if you can. ;)
Quote from: doctorb on November 21, 2012, 12:44:26 PM
Finally, although you may well be a good distance from your nearest neighbors, try to find out what they are like. Avoid religous cults, prisons, and Forestry Forum members if you can. ;)
Does Forestry Forum members rank higher or lower priority than Prisons on places to avoid? Haha!!
Thanks for the tips.
Doctorb, Very good points... I did not want highways ,airports and rod and gun clubs nearby for noise reasons. We also did not want any easements on the land. We ended up with hills ,valleys, streams, ledge , rocks, trees , swamps , wetlands, deer, moose, turkeys, but no FF members nearby. :)
When I decided to buy I kept an eye on real estate listing (MLS) on the internet and had 6 criteria the parcel had to meet. 1-160 acres, 2-mature wood, 3-close to river or lake, 4- accessable by 4 wheel drive, 5- no more than three hour drive from my home, 6- cheap!
Looked for a year before we got lucky. The search was fun; if we found a likely spot we would take our little holiday trailer and spend a weekend camped there to try it on.
Edit: its 2 1/2 hours from town and over 3 hours from any FF members :(
We want the land to make a vacation cabin that we could use year round. I don't hunt but I like to fish and hike, so a heavily wooded lot near water would be ideal. Also, I would like to "groom the forest", you know, care for the woods properly so that they flourish and one day my grandkids would have this great woods to explore. The lumber from the trees would cut down on building costs too. We are making our criteria list right now. So far its:
1) Near a ski lodge (only way the wife would use it during the winter)
2) 10+ acres so neighbors aren't too close
3) Near water, either a lake or swimmable river
4) no more than 3 hours drive from our home
5) has public road access to the frontage
6) heavily wooded
I do plan on checking who or what is around the property to avoid noisy neighbors. I am reading up on subsurface rights, because of the natural gas in the area. I wouldn't want to subdivide the property later on. We would also like to be about 30 minutes from a nearby town. We aren't going uber remote, just a little away from it all.
I've found that on realtor sites the land is either all clear cut or it has a set of buildings like a house or lodge that drives the price up. A lot of land I have seen over the years on those sites is cedar swamp that was cut off. And subdivided off good farm land, sometimes land locked across someone's farm. Lately though it has improved some since they have taken on foresters in some outfits so you can deal with someone that knows what timber looks like versus whips and poles.
I inquired one time back in the 90's. I had access to property lines and photos. I got several faxes and checked every one from photos. All were wasteland and swamps around farm edges. Saved a lot of running and wasted time.
I am in Idaho, I would imagine things could be quite different over there.. Buying raw land is no different from buying land with a home on it really.
Some things to check into before buying any raw land though, find out what it is zoned as and what exactly that means to you as the owner, also if you want to build a home you have to find out if you are allowed to build a home on that land. Always do a title and lean search even on raw land, and I would suggest to always have a survey done.
I would also check with the local offices and find who is in charge of noxious weed enforcement and have them make an inspection of the land before buying, if it has a weed problem you want to know before you buy and would also effect the selling price of land when that is considered. These are just things I have learned from my experience in buying land thus far.
The wife and I bought 200 acres of raw farmland ten years ago and it turned out all the cropland was full of goat weed, which is a listed noxious weed, it was an expensive and troubling headache for all those years. I also had nieghbors putting fences over our place the instant we bought it hoping that we would not take them to court about it, two of them actually logged 12 acres of old growth timber after moving the fence 200 feet into our forest. In the end it was greedy neighbors that caused us to sell out, but that also worked to our advantage, another neighbor did a mining claim on the BLM land behind us, where the other neighbors had logged not realising they had moved the fence so most of the claim lay on our place. When he realised that he offered us 2k an acre and we sold out laughing all the way to the bank.
We now have a small 40 acre farm with a very nice 3k square foot house, five ponds full of bass and catfish, 12 acres of timber and great neighbors that are the salt of the earth. I would suggest that whatever you buy you check into it very thoroughly to avoid getting into headaches.
Quote from: kilgrosh on November 22, 2012, 10:04:38 AM
So far its:
1) Near a ski lodge (only way the wife would use it during the winter)
2) 10+ acres so neighbors aren't too close
3) Near water, either a lake or swimmable river
4) no more than 3 hours drive from our home
5) has public road access to the frontage
6) heavily wooded
You find two of these, let me know :D
$2000/acre for farmland isn't exceptional. It's pretty much bare minimum if it's decent ground. And goes up from there. From what some of the farmers on here say, it goes way up from there in some areas. Our good farmland is under FLIP, so if it's subdivided and taken out of production there are tax consequences that go back about 15 years.
After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts. They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k. Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west. I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid. Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k. My cabin could easily be off-grid - propane stove and refrigerator, water pump and LED lights. What else do you need? My "neighbor" is a freeway down off the end of the property so there is the rush of traffic noise down there but not too noticeable on top.
I've tried to contact my other neighbor but no response. Their 10 acre parcel of land is vacant as well. Trying to swing a deal for sharing bringing in the electric.
Holmes...be wary. The features you describe are the ideal habitat for FF members. Keep an eye out for an inconspicuous RoW, the smell of woodsmoke and diesel or the occasional newly sawn stump. ;) depending on your location, you might try flushing out an FF member by cooking up some grits over a wood fire and leave them for a spell. If that don't lure them out, perhaps some of MM "tasty" looking chicken. ;D
Thanks for the warning 5quarter. Up here we use grits to soak up the swamps. Chicken crispin would be good though. ;D
If you have, or can make, good neighbors they'll be valuable to you. They can watch over your place when you're not there, and can offer help when you really need it.
Officially the seller pays the real estate broker fees...unofficially the buyer pays it all. I've bought from real estate agents, banks, and property owners. I've always got the best buy from banks or straight from the property owner. IMO you will never get a great deal through a real estate company.
It was a bit scary the first time, but closing a deal is not all that hard. The couple of times I bought from a bank they handled everything at very little charge/no charge. There's always somebody in the bank who knows all the rules. When buying from a property owner I've gotten a lawyer. Split those reasonable fees with the seller at closing.
Too find a property religiously check the real estate adds in the paper as soon as it comes out. Most of the time you can do that online, and use a search to only list the properties that may interest you.
We are living on property that has all your requirements except for that snow thing...that's a four letter word. :D
I lived for three months in northeast Pennsylvania. Beautiful area.
Around here you can go to a town hall and ask to see accessors maps. I have seen people do this, find a large parcel of land on the map, find out who owns it, [ that is public information,] then ask the owner if they want to sell their land or part of it. That is an option when you know the location you want to be in.
Quote from: Mountain on November 22, 2012, 12:32:11 PM
I would also check with the local offices and find who is in charge of noxious weed enforcement and have them make an inspection of the land before buying, if it has a weed problem you want to know before you buy and would also effect the selling price of land when that is considered. These are just things I have learned from my experience in buying land thus far.
Noxious weed? I guess I have some more learning to do. Never heard of this before. Anyone come into this stuff in PA?
Quote from: Rocky_Ranger on November 22, 2012, 01:20:37 PM
You find two of these, let me know :D
I found one with all but the closeness to a town and a ski area. After I showed the online listing to the wife, she said 35 minutes drive to ski was too far for her to enjoy it. Not kidding. Ohh how I love the French ;)
Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 22, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts. They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k. Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west. I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid. Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k.
Ljohnsaw, where in nor cal are you? I lived in Alameda (Bay Area) for 7 years. Are the septic/utility prices actual quotes or just guestimates?
Larry, I will check with the local bank to see about direct dealings.
Holmes, thanks for the idea. I will reach out to a couple of the county's assessors office and see whats available.
Quote from: kilgrosh on November 23, 2012, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 22, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts. They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k. Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west. I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid. Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k.
Ljohnsaw, where in nor cal are you? I lived in Alameda (Bay Area) for 7 years. Are the septic/utility prices actual quotes or just guestimates?
Larry, I will check with the local bank to see about direct dealings.
Holmes, thanks for the idea. I will reach out to a couple of the county's assessors office and see whats available.
I'm planning on building up off of 80 at Yuba Gap. For a "standard" septic, they were quoting about $2,500. I've got lots of boulders so the leach lines will likely meander -
meaning I will have to have extra backhoe work. Hopefully I will not need an "engineered" system - read that as extra $$.
For the well, the wells in the area that my driller has first-hand knowledge, the depth is 600' for production. I will likely go 100' or so for minimal water and install a storage tank. That I can do for a couple thousand. Going 600' is around $12k.
I know exactly where Yuba Gap is. Lovely country up there...though not so lovely when CHP closes I-80 past Truckee. Hopefully I won't have to drill that far for a well!
I've worked with some great realtors, but I still don't trust 'em. They are in the business of selling property, so their first priority has to be selling something. You have to do your own due diligence. They might not reveal known faults, or they may not know about them in the first place.
Our needs were slightly different, since we will live at our place full-time once the house is finished. I spent a lot of time looking over properties on-line real estate sights, and had a good list of about 2 dozen properties by the time we went shopping. Along with the real estate sites, I also used Google Earth and the GIS site to learn more about the properties. GIS stands for Geographic Information System, and it's used in many places to varying degrees. The one in our county is very comprehensive, including topo lines, soil types, flood zones, and even crime statistics. You can also search the area surrounding a prospective parcel to see who your 'neighbors' are. After all this, we spent a long day looking, and in the end, there were only two candidates. Everything else was either in a flood zone, or poor quality property.
I would never buy any property without a percolation test for a septic system. They've gotten a LOT fussier about this in recent years, and land that won't perk is worth significantly less. You also need to find a water source, and what a typical well costs in your area. If they've been fracking nearby, or might in the future, well water may not be an option at all. Figure out where the cabin will go, and find out how much it will cost to bring in utilities, This can really add up if the cabin is 2000 feet from the road!
You also need to find out what restrictions may be on the property. I was surprised to find subdivisions in rural SC with some fussy rules about land usage and house size. The property we bought is un-zoned, so we can do pretty much whatever we want to. The other edge to that sword is that the neighbors can, too. Luckily, they all seem to be great folks.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 22, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts. They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k. Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west. I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid. Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k. My cabin could easily be off-grid - propane stove and refrigerator, water pump and LED lights. What else do you need? My "neighbor" is a freeway down off the end of the property so there is the rush of traffic noise down there but not too noticeable on top.
I've tried to contact my other neighbor but no response. Their 10 acre parcel of land is vacant as well. Trying to swing a deal for sharing bringing in the electric.
If you can infact put in grid power for $3000, do it. I have solar, was off grid but am now on grid and net metered. I was only 410' away from the power lines, but it cost me about $7000 to get grid power. First was $4200 for the utility to run 210' and set a pole with transformer. The rest was wire and equipment to run power the remaining 200' underground and then install the meter socket, main disconnect and entrance panel. It does not include the breakers and costs wiring inside my sugarhouse.
Another point, when you think you might have found the right property, make sure you have a lawyer in your corner to protect you. Don't just use a bank's lawyer or the sellers lawyer. You want one who is solely looking out for you. Over the years I have bought and sold many properties, both with houses and vacant land. Every time I had a lawyer (except one tax sale investment that I more than tripled my investment in 4 years time. This is not the rule on tax sale property!) and he always found things that would likely not have been found otherwise.