inserted tooth saws

crosscut · February 04, 2003, 10:21:38 PM

just curios as to what inserted teeth anybody on here running circular saws are running and why? i have a foley belsaw 52 inch pto mill cutting syp and cypress mainly and its time for new teeth. wondering what everyone else is using and why you prefer it also would appreciate any recomendations thanks :

Steve

Jeff · February 05, 2003, 01:59:11 AM

I use Simonds 9/32 f pattern Standards. All I use. Simply put, I prefer them because they work the best for me.

Fla._Deadheader · February 05, 2003, 05:09:44 AM

JB, I know there are different size shanks and teeth. Are they interchangable with most saw blades or, are the blades made for certain size shanks and teeth?? I been trying to remember the sizes I used. Can picture the boxes, just can't see the print. Might need one of the fizzic people to help me ??? :

Frank_Pender · February 05, 2003, 07:47:38 AM

In My case, I believe that the Simonds shanks and teeth are for the Mobile Mill units. I am sure that they would fit for other such saw sizes as I use on my two mills. :P

mitch · February 05, 2003, 10:41:15 AM

Check out the B.H. Payne link
http://www.paynesaws.com

woodhaven · February 05, 2003, 01:12:52 PM

I use Simonds. The number on the box is B-F-7-5/16 S.A. Someone told me years ago to use them and I always have. What I would like to know is what horse power are you using. I also run a 52" blade. I have got to get more horses.
Richard

DanG · February 05, 2003, 01:17:27 PM

Thanks, Mitch. There is an excellent link within that one, that gives a good primer on maintaining and troubleshooting circle saws. It is by Jeff Lesak(sp), a ForestryForum member whom DonT hardly never post here no more. :( It would be a good tidbit to put in the links or knowledge base. :P

Ron Wenrich · February 05, 2003, 01:57:24 PM

I normally run the Simonds standards on the head saw, I do that due to all the trash I've been hitting. I have also used longs, and I believe they are the same price. You'll get a few more filings from longs, and a little more meat for swaging.

On the edgers I'm running IKS chrome longs. IKS makes a little thinner chrome, and they can be swaged, if needed. IKS can be hand filed, after you get your initial layer of chrome off. You'll need some sort of grinder or diamonad file for that. They are rough on hand files.

I used to use the chrome on the headsaw. They would last a little longer, but are a little too hard when you hit metal or rocks. The corners will break off, and they are hard to repair. They are also more expensive, and I don't think they are worth the added expense.

I have tried Hoe and IKS regular teeth, but prefer the Simonds They seem to stay sharper laonger. I also hate standall teeth. I run winter shanks and summer bits all year long, as do most mills in the area. Must have something to do witht the local saw doc.

Saw pattern may limit what brand you can buy. I once had a Disston #33 and could never find teeth. Most patterns are B, F, D and 2 1/2. You will find the pattern letter on your shank.

mitch · February 05, 2003, 03:37:15 PM

I usually saw with #3 bits, usually 9/32 Simonds long and sometimes standall...ocassionally saw with 2 1/2 bits. Everyone says that #3 is fading from the sawmill scene, but all bits and shanks are still available.

Does anyone use carbide bits??? I bought a box of 100 IKS, but have been reluctant to saw with them because of hitting metal.
B.H. Payne bought out American bits a while back and had some good deals on those.

Tom · February 05, 2003, 03:44:18 PM

This is an interesting conversation and I am enjoying it but not understanding it. I know there are different tooth configurations because we in the bandsaw field deal with them too. I am not familiar with the terminologies y'all use to describe your teeth. Standall, summer, winter, numbers, letters etc. I understand "set" and "swaged..swedged (?)"

When y'all get to a stopping place here would someone write a description of circle mill teeth for me?

:P

Fla._Deadheader · February 05, 2003, 04:55:36 PM

I'll probably mess this up. As I remember, an inserted tooth has a nice smooth transition from the base of the tooth to the gullet. Picture a quarter moon shape, sorta. ?? A standoff has a shoulder instead of the smooth transition, and is a little harder? Takes more wear from the sawdust. A summer tooth is a little softer than a winter tooth, that is used more for sawing frozen logs. There are Carbide teeth, but, as was stated, they take a beating from tramp metal, and are tough to dress up.

  I personally used a flat hand file on my saw. There are clamp-on types, where you turn a little crank and rotate a set of file type pieces that are brazed to a flat wheel that strikes the tooth face. There are also power sharpeners.

  I have seen guys "swage" the inserted teeth. I was instructed to never do that, as it would stretch yer shanks and also could stretch yer saw sockets. I know you guys do this, but, the guys I observed, used a 2 pound hammer to swage with. My teeth lasted as long as the swagers because I filed a little at a time, more often. Of course, I was VERY lucky and only hit metal a few times. Did saw down the face of a white insulator once ???

  Ok guys, beat me up !! :D :D

Bro. Noble · February 05, 2003, 06:44:53 PM

Woodhaven,

If you switch to 9/32 you will need a little less power to saw. We use 5/16 carbide on our scragg mill because we can't put lead in the saws. I'd get 11/32 carbide if they made such a thing. I think they do in chrome. We use carbide because we saw a lot of dirty slabs as well as small top logs and limbs. We know there isn't metal in the logs and the slabs come off of the bandmill and any metal would have been found.

Tom,

The different sizes and styles of teeth have to do with log size and density, blade diameter and gage, number of teeth in the saw, speed of sawing, and if the wood is frozen or not. Probably a lot of other things I donT know about. Most of the differences are to do the most efficient job of removing sawdust from the cut under those different circumstances. the teeth (or bits) are held in the saw with a shank. The saw is cut for a certain tooth style and shank. Within those stylles you can get the variations of length and width of bits and bits for frozen wood which have a little different shape of gullet.

It's the same as width, gage, set, profile, and material in bands-------then you get into whatt brand is best. :

Noble

sawmill_john · February 05, 2003, 10:32:52 PM

I use Simonds bits, Pacific Hoe no longer makes bits and shanks as of about 1997, the mobile dimension saws are 3 pattern, I try to run the standard kerfs 5/16" for the 8 ga. saws and 1/4" for the 10 ga. saws. I have used the stellite inlaid bits mainly because they stay sharper longer and if you hit rocks and small nails you usally only knock off a corner or two, where carbide will shatter. The soft or standard teeth just don't hold up very long (they do work ok if you hit alot of metal and have to sharpen every hour). But overall i just don't feel its worth the extra sharpening time.

I'll dig up some more facts at work tomorrow, what ever you are using keep them sharp and you'll be alot happier, I was touching up some bit this evening, it really is the key to sawing straight and clean lumber.

john 8)

DanG · February 06, 2003, 01:03:33 PM

Tom, go back up to Mitch's post and click on the "Payne" link. Look near the top of the page, on the right, and there is a link to a circular saw maintenance page. This will tell you far more than you ever wanted to know, if you don't have one of these monsters. There's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

Ron Wenrich · February 06, 2003, 02:48:42 PM

Tom

You made me go to the research library, since I couldn't give a reliable answer off the top of my head. :D

There are 2 types of saw and shank configurations on a circle saw. One is called the single circle and the other is called a double circle. It refers how the shank and tooth fit in the saw. Single circle are designated by numbers and double circle are designated by letters. Single circles are recommended for softwoods and soft hardwoods. Double circles are recommended for hardwoods.

The smaller numbers are used if you are running smaller logs. These patterns are 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2, and 4 1/2. On letters, you have F, B & D. These are the ones common today.

On single circles, the shank and tooth fit in one single circle. On a double circle, the shank fits in one circle, and the second circle holds the tooth behind the shank

Shanks are made from spring steel and they hold the shank and tooth in place. Summer shanks and summer teeth will form a round gullet. That works good for many cutting situations.

But, in winter, you need to slow the sawdust down in the gullet so it doesn't spill out over the sides. A winter shank has a bulge where the shank meets the tooth. This disrupts the round gullet and causes the sawdust to swirl in the gullet (so I'm told).

Standall bits do the same thing, but they have the bulge in the tooth. When standalls are coupled with winter shanks, you then have a summer shank/tooth configuration with a much smaller gullet capacity, and defeats the purpose of using either the bits or shanks.

The letters and numbers also refer to the size of the shank. Jeff uses an F style tooth, and has 50 teeth. I use a B pattern with 46 teeth. I have 1 1/2 times the gullet size in the B pattern than the F. It helps me feed a little faster. I also run bigger logs, and you need the added gullet capacity.

We had a discussion a few years ago about the term swage and the spelling. Like Deadheader, I rarely swage, except to repair teeth. I also hand file, and can put a little lead into the teeth if it is needed.

We put no set in the circle saws. Our set is basically the width of the saw tooth. They are "V" shaped. That gives the needed clearance to prevent rubbing of the saw.

Lead is where the front of the saw is a little more into the log then the back of the saw. This prevents the eye from heating up, by the log running past it. The eye of circle saws are thicker than the rim.

I bought a disk of several sawmill books over at ebay a couple of months ago. I believe I paid $6. Its called the Sawmill Handbook Collection and contains Circular Sawmills & Their Efficient Operation; Uses for Sawdust, Shavings and Waste Chips; Electic Moisture Meters for Wood; Dry Kiln Operator's Manual; Drying Hardwood Lumber; and Air Drying of Lumber. These are all older USFS Research Books. Very worthwhile and useful for the money invested.

Tom · February 06, 2003, 03:03:28 PM

Yee Hi-i-iii! I knew I'd get a bit more of an understanding if I asked. I'll enjoy this thread a little more now. Don't you guys stop talking just 'cause I interrupted. :D

Be sure to do me a favor and drop a little descriptive knowledge now and again so I can keep up. I'm going to go back over in the corner and sit down now. Thanks. ;D :P

crosscut · February 06, 2003, 06:41:08 PM

wow thanks alot sounds like simonds teeth hands down. so far i have tommorrow off so i need to go see what style teeth i have in it and make some phone calls really appreciate all the quick responsces though

Jeff · February 06, 2003, 07:25:27 PM

Simonds have always had the best quality. Back when we were buying hoes in the old green box you never knew it the tooth would be tight or loose or even fit. Poor, poor quality. Lately I have been having a slight problem with the simonds. I get a 5/16 tooth mixed in the box on occasion. That sucks! I don't have a side clearance guage or spider guage and with my eyes its a pain for me to find which tooth is scraping up my lumber!

Tom · February 06, 2003, 07:29:01 PM

Yeah Jeff........sigh........... that happens when you pass 40. I just hope that I'm in as good a shape as you when I'm your age. :D

oops.....back to my corner. :-[ :

Bro. Noble · February 06, 2003, 07:50:32 PM

Jeff,

Do you suppose it would show up on the offending tooth if you touched it with a lumber crayon-----carefully of course?

Noble

Jeff · February 07, 2003, 02:15:42 AM

I'm not sure how you could carefully touch it. 'spain yerself.

They make some sort of guage you just run around the saw to check tooth width. I think a spider guage ron calls it. He should buy me one for my birthday, or in honor of whom evers birthday is coming up next!

Ron can you take a pic of yours?

Ron Wenrich · February 07, 2003, 03:49:27 AM

Spider gauge

Top view

Side view

Another way I've used to find the offending tooth is to take a flat file and lay across 3 teeth corners. When you get a high one in the center, it will rock. Then, side dress to make it even with the others.

For me, most times it is a bent socket tip. I'll usually mark the shoulder with the file, so I can come back to it in the future. I've also tried to bend them straight, with limited success.

So, how many shopping days until your birthday? :D

Jeff · February 07, 2003, 06:32:32 AM

3
I like my gifts months in advance. ;D

Don P · February 07, 2003, 06:56:36 AM

I doubt my experience is great enough to give much help on this but I'll pass on what I've done and why. I'm underpowered, 46" blade, pto drive. The saw doc said to use standall bits to help prevent spillage and heating. Like Ron said he advised not to run winter shanks and standalls...so I think its 2 different approaches to keeping the cut clear, one or the other. I run BF 8/9 9/32 Simonds Standall. Ran IKS blue tips...blue streaks something like that, but these do seem to work better. The doc also used a straightening thing on some of my sockets after he pounded on the plate. I use the crank type Andrus file every few times and have been hand filing in between, sure is faster.
Don't let em fool ya Jeff, the older the grape, the sweeter the wine.
Course sometimes you just get raisins :-/

Bro. Noble · February 07, 2003, 07:01:55 AM

Jeff,

What I meant by touching carefully with a lumber crayon was to very lightly touch the side of the saw with the crayon so that only a tooth or teeth that was sticking out farther than the others would pick up the color. I'm not sure that would work. What I meant by carefully was don't use a marker that's worn down to a stub-------'borrow' the lumber grader's 3' long crayon holder and then have Earl hold it to the saw :D

Ron's gage or file procedure sounds like a better deal. Check both sides to see if it's a wider bit or a problem with the saw.

Noble