But first we have to build the foundation

[danreed76]

Idea for house..... check.
Decide on timber frame.... check.
Read every piece of literature one can find on timber framing... check.
Ask multitudes of questions from the timberframing brain trust on FF.... check.
Finally finish plans, have reviewed by an engineer, redraw plans based on engineer's comments, resend for engineer's review, couple more changes, approved by engineer and get a building permit...................  CHECK!

Oh, the foundation... well that's going to be, um, well.....

Okay, I have actually put a good bit of thought into this, but before I place any orders for materials I wanted to get some feedback from "the team" here at the FF.  We are going to have a full basement with a walkout.  I am down to 2 options (unless additional ones come up here) either of which the PE and the building official are good with.  I am looking at either Insulated Concrete Forms or precast foundation walls.  I will leave brand names out, but so far both seem like good options, what do y'all think?

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hello Danreed76:

Well, I'll put aside my traditional leanings for a second, since your going down the more commercial route....but I have just a little rant....

I do not like basements, and find most of the time they are a waist of money. (Dig a hole, put money in.)  You could build an attached garage and with living space above, for what most basements cost.  The hole concept of a basement grew out of, "what do you do with Grandma's root cellar under the house."  Jump forward 60 years, and we still have this architectural habit.  Done ranting.

Now you mentioned a walk out, and for me, that is like a "bank barn,"  I like those and they make since,  A "grade floor," entry/living space," that is logical and can be very cost effective way of adding living/mechanical space to a structure.  Now for your choices:

Insulated Form

Two jobs in the last two years with these being put under the frames we cut.  Decision by clients, "never again."  My take on them in general, great concept, poor real world application.  The concept started in the 60's and in concept their great.  However, after researching them, their short coming and speaking to a few building scientist that have studied and assessed them, no go.  Same conclusion, great concept, but real world application has to many challenges. I won't even go into them, it's not worth the it.  Note the only people I have found that think they are great, the people selling them.

Precast Foundation Walls

Now, I already stated that I don't like concrete, and would prefer to see things done traditionally.  However, if I had a building to design, and it had to be done in a timely fashion, meet code and PE approval in a costly fashion, and have a smaller "carbon footprint," this is the way to go.  We have started recommending them, (they all seem pretty darn good,) to clients that are on a budget and/or are placing their frame on bank foundation.  Advice, get bids from companies that have been doing it for at least five years, (ten is better,) and compare price against bids from a standard "form concrete," contractor.

Now, for something outside the box,  many of these Precast, are using "gravel trench/pad" concepts.  These concepts are based on ancient building principles "dusted off," by Architect Frank Loyd Wright.  Most of his architecture is either attached to bed rock or sit on "gravel trench," foundations.  These Precast do also.  This is where you can examine some new/old concepts in building.

Many modern structures are switching over to radiant heat in the floors.  One of the pit falls of this concept, if the tubing is faulty in some way or starts to leak, you have to tear up concrete if the tubes are embedded in it.  Also, if the space with a concrete slab is going to be a living space, we spend the money for a slab, just to spend more money to cover it up with furring strips and wood to make it more comfortable to be on.  Concrete is not fun to live on, its not healthy to stand on and generally is just too darn hard.

With the Precast's, they are digging the foundation, bringing in their 2" stone then capping that with 3/4" stone, setting the Precast Walls and instead of pouring a slab, they put down a radiant vapor barrier and build an independent wood framed floor.  Radiant tubing underneath.  That is the quick description, there are several concepts out there for consideration.

Best of luck, can't wait to see pictures,

Regards,  jay

[shinnlinger]

Hi,

I assume you are building this somewhere down south?  What about a slab or compacted earth floor?  Concrete is the second most used substance on earth by man...  the first is water, and it uses alot of embodied energy between mining and trucking and processing etc.  Foam blocks are another big use of energy to produce and EXPENSIVE!!!!  All that said it does make for a good foundation and is code accepted.

Now to the point of a basement being a waste, I think that depends on where you live.  If warm enough and a slab will do, go for it.   If your up in cold country and you have to dig down 5 ft to keep the pipes from freezing, whats another 3 to get a full basement?

[thecfarm]

I think I'm right, but in this area no basement really cuts down on the resale value. I don't plan on ever selling mine, but I dug a hole. Every house I have seen in this area without a basement I don't like the looks of. Just something about it does not look right to me. Might just as well go with 7 foot walls, ceilings in the house too. But that is my thoughts. As long as I don't have to live in it or look at it everyday, does not matter to me at all.

[Bandmill Bandit]

I have used cast in place several times. When done properly excellent choice.

I have used preserved wood on a concrete footing again when done properly an excellent choice.

I have used the concrete filled foam blocks (addition to current house) and I like them the best.

In this area cast in place is fast and easy and relative less expensive. The sub strate is a sand clay and is well drained even though the salt (alkali) is a bit on the high side so a well sealed cast in place works good and is pretty easy to get done.

In areas where the soils are not as we'll drained PWF is used more often but cast in place with a good sealer and a wrap tend get the nod. Foam blocks are gaining significant ground in these areas. I don't know of any one that has used from blocks that is not happy with them and many that have done basements with them regret that they did not go right to the rafters. There are a lot them in the region and more being in all the time. I can throw stones and hit about 5 houses and about another 5 or 6 with a sling shot. And the lots are 80x200 ish around here. And that's in town.

As far as the environmental issue?MEH!! The styrenes are a by product of other processes from one of the largest refiners of the type in the world that is just 10 miles east of town and would end up in the dump or getting burned in the boilers that drive the steam turbines at the plant. Most end up as fuel. And even still huge loads end up in the dump. I will take a picture of the rail marshaling yard at the plant in the next few day and post it. If I remember right they ship over hundred cars 2 times a day out of that facility of various petrocal and styrene pellets.

So as far as huge waste of energy to produce? NOT!!! It's a by product.

Why 7 foot ceiling and not 8 minimum?

In this country water is minimum 8 feet and most muni mains are 10 or better.

Code on foundations is minimum 4'6" to bottom of footing and a lot of walk outs are done so that you bring in about foot of fill and still have room for 2 foot window in the basement on the front wall. Lots of vaulted ceilings in main and second floors and lots of 9 and 10 foot ceilings as well even though 8 is still considered standard.

Just my thoughts and comments good luck in your project.

[thecfarm]

BandmillBandit, I changed it to 7 foot walls, ceilings, in the house, if you was referring to that. Sorry. what I meant was with no cellar might just as well go with 7 foot ceilings and really make it look bad.

[Bandmill Bandit]

BandmillBandit, I changed it to 7 foot walls, ceilings, in the house, if you was referring to that. what I meant was with no cellar might just as well go with 7 foot ceilings and really make it look bad.

Ah I see. I read the wrong definition. :

[Ljohnsaw]

I'm not quite so far along, I'm this far:

Idea for cabin..... check.
Decide on timber frame.... check.
Work out floor plan..... check.
Read every piece of literature one can find on timber framing... check.
Ask multitudes of questions from the timberframing brain trust on FF.... check.

Where I'm planning to build, the depth for foundations (frost) is 3'6" and there is typically 10' of snow over the winter.  So my thoughts are to build partially into a shallow hill going down 4 feet below grade and 4 feet above grade with blocks.  This will leave lots of room for the snow to pile up from the roof.  I will pour a slab first and build on that using some new composite wood/concrete blocks that dry-stack and then fill with concrete.  Have not priced them yet but it gives me the option to quickly erect the walls and fill each vertical hollow at my own pace.  Plan to purchase either aggregate and Portland cement or dry ready-mix in bulk and use my 2-sack mixer.

I'm thinking to extend the walls forward of the cabin to support the deck.  The question becomes, since the basement (garage) is unheated, does the measurement for frost protection start at the slab?

[Bandmill Bandit]

If you put a thermal barrier under the slab you would eliminate the issue.

[danreed76]

Thanks for all the feedback, gents.  Keep it coming, as I do enjoy new perspectives and food for thought.

I guess I should expand a bit on the design aspects of the basement.  We are in the mid-south (just a shot down the road from Atlanta and about half an hour from the Alabama border depending on your driving skills).

Originally I planned the house to be slab-on-grade, but through a series of decisions, as well as after selecting the house site, the daylight basement ended up not being that much more of a cost.  The finished wall height will be 9', with about 7' of backfill at the front of the house.

Cost wise, the ICF and the precast options are close; and as a DIY alternative, both are considerably cheaper than having traditional poured walls (at least based on the quotes I've gotten so far).

The one thing that has me leaning ICF at this point is the ability to pour a slab over the top of one section that is going to be more or less a "safe" room.  So far none of the precast companies have been able to work with this.

One of the things I do like about the precast is the stone footing.  sitting on 8" of 1/2" stone is great structure and drainage. 

Weather permitting, I'll start digging a hole any time now.  And when the weather quits slowing down the Internet (satellite connection out in the woods) I'll throw some foundation models up.

Pics will follow as things move along.  I should probably get to blogging this before things get too crazy.

[logman]

I used Superior Walls and would do it again.  They go up fast and you only have to get a concrete truck in one time.  The concrete pad is part of their structural system though.  My basement is as warm as toast because of my pex lines feeding my baseboards.  I was going to insulate my lines and my floor joists but I figure all that heat just radiates up anyway and I'm heating with a Hardy outdoor boiler.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Folks,

I just read through everything here and feel I have to make some follow up comments for Danreed76 to consider. Sorry that is a little long. 

First, I can't agree more with Logman, this is the company we recommend the most, if they are in an area we are building a frame and/or it fits the projects parameters.  He is also correct that the slab is a integral part of the wall system. However, there are methodologies for modifying the slabs configuration to achieve wall integration and still have a wood floor without using budget on a double floor system. He is also correct, there isn't a better draining below grade foundation system available, other than a PWF

Now for some more info about insulated forms.  It looks like we have found some folks that like them. So will speak of some of the concerns with the system, even from the contractors that do the work.

You must get a proper concrete mix, (easier said than done,) and it must be placed in the walls from the bottom of the forms to the top.  Do not let a contractor tell you it is o.k to fill these forms from the top.  It is not!  "Honey Combing," is one of the primary issues with this system. and once the wall is poured, you really do not have a way to know if it has happened until there is an issue of some kind.

Another issue is the foam itself.  Beside many of these foams being flammable and out-gassing, they also are open to pest infiltration in a big way.   The issue I have, (and have had since they showed up), is what they had been (and still are in some cases), made of, polystyrene. Another great product in the lab, but in "real life," oh my, look out.  We use to use the stuff to raise different types of ground dwelling Hymenoptera, (read ants and wasps.)  Even with the borates added to this stuff they can (and do) attract these guys.  They just love your home to be theirs.  Remember they aren't eating it they are trying to nest in it, and if they can tolerated the borates long enough, (building up a layer of their own dead bodies in the wake,) they can carve out a place to stay, and that is what they do.  We haven't even gotten into the other miscreants like mice, wood rats, red and flying squirrels that also seem to just love digging through the stuff just for fun!  How do I now this stuff?  I was a state licensed supervisor in nuisance wildlife and pest control for the state of Connecticut for almost 5 years. 

So, between the possibility of "honey combing," which you can't see till it's too late and pest infestation, again you can't see till it too late, my money is on Precast or formed concrete, it you are going to use concrete at all.

There is a third alternative:

Permanent Wood Foundations-PWF

They have been around since the 60's. They have a proven track record for fast cost effective foundations and have been improved in the last ten years with the use of foams and more modern methods of use/construction.  You can do a quick "Google Image," search and find many examples.  Here are also some quick links to info on them:

http://vermontfarm.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/the-anatomy-of-a-permanent-wood-foundation/

http://www.nachi.org/permanent-wood-foundations.htm

Regards,  jay

[danreed76]

Great food for thought guys.  I've been considering the Superior Walls, just waiting on some technical feedback from their engineering guys.  I've actually heard a lot of great things about them; the only negative feedback I've heard has been from folks who didn't follow the instructions regarding drainage or backfilling.

In the Superior Walls installations, did you guys overhang the sill plate to support the enclosure wall?

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Darnreed76,

Yes, we often overhang the timber frame floor joist system to carry the outer wall trusses we use.  Our walls are from 250 mm to 600 mm thick, (10" to 24")  You should have no problem.  The nice part about Superior Walls, is they do go in fast, and the only negatives we have heard is also from poor insulation. We often timber frame below grade as well, for finished walk out basements, and S.W. lends it's self well to that.  Keep us posted.

Regards,  jay

[logman]

I used a PT 2x12" and put it overhanging the walls to rest my sips on.  I have no complaints on the insulation.  In fact it is too warm down there since we store our potatoes in our basement. 

[danreed76]

Jay, Logman:  Thanks for all the great feedback.  Regardless which system we go with, I have to have a wall detail on site for the inspector (didn't have to submit it for code approval, he just wants to see what our intention is when we get to this point?)  Anyhow... the below is kind of how I see it based on our discussion so far.  does this seem correct?  then we can build up the finish on the exposed wall (stone or brick veneer, etc).



I'll be talking to the Superior guys again today to get the rest of my questions answered, as well as getting "the hole" to finished grade (the ol' 931 has had quite a workout the last few days).






Dan

[logman]

That looks like how I did my walls, except I used sips.  I also put a termite flashing between the SW and the pt.  I fur out my timbers to slide my interior finish material behind them.  They put bearing pads under the walls where my posts are also. 

[Raider Bill]

I built the Tenn house with ICF's myself. I'm not a builder, contractor, or craftsman in anyway. Just wanted a strong simple system that I could do myself without having to pay a contractor. I did not have any engineering and all "blue prints" were on cocktail napkins. If you can build with legos you can use ICF's
I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Light and easy to use, solid, and unbelievable insulation.

I also have a drive in basement.

Here is the link,
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,25583.220.html

As far as any honey combing use a wet mix and a vibrator. I filled from the top with no problems just do it in small lifts working your way around the walls starting with the corners. Took about 7 hours.

They build a lot of ICF here in Florida simply due to insulation, simplicity and wind resistance [hurricane] . I've spoke to several that have ICF houses and they all love them myself included.

I have had no problem with insects nor has anyone I spoken to that has a ICF house even in Florida the
insect /termite capitol. Now boring bees on exposed pine that's  another story.

There are several here on the FF that have them.
Don't discount them.

I've got hundreds more pictures of the build if anyone wants to see them send me a PM with email address.

[danreed76]

Thanks, Bill.  I am still torn between ICF and SW.  The big thing is that ICF lets me work more around my timing.  With the SW, they won't cast the walls and schedule the install until they have inspected the site and made sure it's acceptable (my understanding from the conversation with the salesman)  From there it's a 2-week lead time to get the stuff on site.  As I work an odd schedule (and this is a mega-DIY project), having to wait 2 weeks from the time I get the salesman out to evaluate the site to the time we set the precast foundation may be an issue.  I'm still talking to the salesman on this point, hopefully we can work around this.

Other than that, the only hangup I have with the precast is whether or not we can make them work with the safe-room that we have planned as part of the house.  If I can make it work without a huge $$$$ increase or a redesign of the house we want to build, the precast may be a go.

So far, both options are still on the table.  Big progress for today is the entire hole is dug to shape, and right now all points are within 8" of level 8)!!!.  A little scraping tomorrow should have everything nice and flat; then time to hit the road and make a paycheck for a few days.

Logman:  I was thinking I'd cut some 5/8" spacers to leave room to sneak the 1/2" sheetrock in between the frame and enclosure wall.  I also plan on putting a metal flashing and sill gasket down between the sill plate and the foundation.  I just didn't get them in the detail.

I'll bring the camera tomorrow and throw some more photos on.

Dan

[MotorSeven]

I did 12" block 10' high 30x36'. I debated Pre-cast but shied at the cost($12K). Looking back I have about $8K in the basement and if I were to do it all over I would go Pre-cast. I learned a lot with block at my own expense and I now know that Pre-cast is a stronger/better system.

In Atlanta you don't need any floor heat, I don't have it here don't regret it. Jay I don't know where you can build a 30x36 garage for $8 or $12K & we really like having the basement. I am heating the whole house with a big wood burner down there so all the associated mess is easy to sweep up & out.

Are you doing all the TF yourself?

[danreed76]

Hi MotorSeven:

I know the radiant floors aren't a necessity for Atlanta, but it's one of those nice-to-haves that if we can make it fit the budget, we want to include.  We have a forced air system with a heat pump in the house we live in now, and the cold spots and uneven temperatures drive us nuts in the winter.  Still ciphering on the ups and downs of the heating systems.  I like heating with a woodstove, but when I'm travelling it's just not as practical for the wife and young'ns.

As far as the TF goes, I've been milling timbers for about a year and a half (thank God the PE agreed with all my sizing!) and will start working on joinery once we have the foundation in and the first floor decked out, hopefully in the next month.  Still a few timbers to mill, but I'll get those as I move along.  Still thinkin about hosting a workshop, just gotta figure out when.

Dan

[MotorSeven]

Sounds like a great project. Back in '05(I think) my buddy & I took a TF week long class in NC. We had a lot of fun and learned a ton, mostly for me was that I knew TF would not be for me. I guess I'm too ADD to take the time involved & prefer mechanical fasteners. It did make me respect what TF'ers accomplish and I when look at a true TF structure I am always awe.

As far as in slab heat it is awesome. This last Christmas we were in Manitoba and our van split a radiator(-34C). I found a shop in my wife's small home town to install a new one for me. The metal building was 50x75-ish & had a heated slab. The wind was up that day, it was about -24C & the shop temp was in the 60's. I talked to the owner & he said that the in-floor was the main heat source. They did have a gas furnace mounted to the ceiling above the big shop doors to kick on when the doors were open but that it didn't come on much. Needless to say I was impressed.

Keep us posted on your build.

[danreed76]

Well, after a significant amount of debate, we ended up choosing an ICF system.  At the end of the day, the precast just wouldn't fit in the budget, and they wanted us to change the house design in some regards to meet their 'typical' installation methods and details.  We looked at some other options (PWF, concrete block, conventional poured wall) and decided that ICF fit our needs best, although we'll be taking some extra steps to make sure we overcome any of the 'issues' that we've heard of others encountering.  We chose the ICF system that I felt most closely matches a typical "poured wall" core and will allow us to fill properly without honeycombing or voids.

On the flip side, after battling the weather for weeks on end, we were able to get the footings poured!  The wife and daughters worked their tails off helping me get everything ready.  My 12 and 14 year old daughters are pros at cutting, bending, and tying rebar now).  We used Fastfoot by fab-form for the footing forms, which allowed me to use just 2x4s for screed boards and 1x4s for stakes.  All in all, a few lessons learned (like make sure the pump operator doesn't aim the hose at the side of the form) and the footings turned out great.  I was sweating the last day or so before we got the concrete in, as we had weather coming and I had to go to work.

At the old massey ferguson just isn't maneuverable enough, and has a personality of her own lately, we brought in a a mercenary machine to dig the footings (still the same ol' unprofessional operators, though).


getting the fabric and rebar installed




At the end of the day, with just a little bit of help, we had the footing poured in about two and a half hours.

Now we're working on getting the under slab plumbing ready for inspection, then hopefully next week, the walls go up.

[Raider Bill]

What brand did you go with? I used AMVIC.
What "issues" are you concerned about?

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Dan,

I just got a tip from an architect that really likes ICF, but new all the potential problems with them, especially "honeycombing."  It sounds like more work, but it would really solve the problem perfectly.  Many of the folks that have jumped into this ICF field, have slowly moved to "wetter" mixes, which, in turn, affects strength and structure in portland cements.  They have done this, to compensate, as you and I have discussed the challenges with this product,  getting the mix down into the bottom of the forms.  "Wet mix" is not the protocol for ICF, a flowing, but stiff mix is.  This is supposed to be used and worked into the form, from the bottom up.  This additional "technique" involves placing 2" plastic pipe in the form to the bottom as it is drawn in and out as the form fills it allows the air pockets to vent and collapse, thereby leaving no voids.  For what it's worth, I thought I would share that.  Good luck and keep us up to date.

Regards,

jay