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Tennis Elbow?

Started by addicted, June 04, 2021, 05:54:37 PM

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addicted

First legitimate Timber Frame injury. 
 I'm assuming the official diagnoses is tennis elbow even though I haven't grabbed a racket in 20 yrs. Swinging an ash mallet on oak timbers took its toll. Never had any problems with the other species but as soon as I started working on oak consistently, my arm started acting up within a couple of weeks. I can barely shake hands like a cold fish.

Is this common?
If so what's the fix? and How can I avoid it once fixed.
 I still have thirty joists to go

Rusty

canopy

Rather than driving through the project and aggravating it further, switch hands. Start slow as hands will take time to get up to speed on their new roles. In general switching is good even for very short time periods to get both hands comfortable doing the work. Evens the work load, sometimes positioning makes left or right the more practical, and of course working around an injury.

Edvantage

I've been battling tennis elbow for a month. It's quite painful. I have stretches I do. Best thing for it is rest. I keep prolonging it by overdoing things. Just finished a day of chainsawing. I'll pay for it tomorrow. 

Tom King

Since switching to the Wood is Good 30 oz. mallet for this work, I've neither had a sore arm, nor a damaged chisel handle.  The last such job was 15 hours in a row, over two days.  Arm was a bit tired, but no pain.

The feel is a little different, but doesn't take long to get used to.  It's like each lick gives the chisel a push, instead of a jump.

I now only use them any time I need a mallet, and have 12, 18, and 30 ounce ones for different purposes.

Hope your arm heals up quickly.

Don P

I've also been battling it for a couple of weeks, I'm not sure mine isn't either golfers elbow or an impinged nerve. Tennis is the outside, golfers is the inside. I didn't lose grip strength or have tingling just pain and couldn't get a fork to my mouth, so it might have come from my neck, not sure. Luckily I'm ambitextrous at the dinner table. I switched up tasks over the holiday and it is letting up. We were made for hunting and fishing not for constant repetitive motion, do something else to mix it up.

logman

Quote from: Tom King on June 04, 2021, 07:35:10 PM
Since switching to the Wood is Good 30 oz. mallet for this work, I've neither had a sore arm, nor a damaged chisel handle.  The last such job was 15 hours in a row, over two days.  Arm was a bit tired, but no pain.

The feel is a little different, but doesn't take long to get used to.  It's like each lick gives the chisel a push, instead of a jump.

I now only use them any time I need a mallet, and have 12, 18, and 30 ounce ones for different purposes.

Hope your arm heals up quickly.
Once you use a heavy mallet you'll wonder why you ever used a light one.  I used a handmade mallet for a while which wasn't very heavy and when it broke I bought a heavy one (can't remember the weight but at least 30 oz.).  What a difference.  I've also worked out all my life so I believe that helps to reduce repetitive type injuries.  I was having some elbow pain for a little bit but switched the way I do pull ups and it pretty much went away.  My belief is if you want to work hard at timber framing keep your body strong with weight training.  Just doing the work is not enough.
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

mike_belben

I dont know the answers but pain in both elbows got added to the ever growing list about 2 years ago. 
Praise The Lord

Tacotodd

I attribute mine to uncle Arthur 😣
Trying harder everyday.

firefighter ontheside

My right lateral epicondilitis(tennis elbow) was building for a while, but then I took a lot of technical rescue classes all within a 6 month period about 13 years ago.  The final straw was structural collapse tech training that was 80 hours of sledge hammers, hydraulic breakers and drills and numerous other heavy tools.  First thing the doc made me do was wear a band on my forearm just before the elbow.  It puts pressure on the muscle and takes some of the strain off of the point where the tendon attaches to bone(epicondile).  That made it feel better when I was using it, but didn't make it go away.  Next was steroid injections.  The first one cured me for about 6 months.  The second cured me for 3 months.  The last one only lasted a few weeks.  Next was surgery.  I was out of work for 7 weeks.  One of the other battalion chiefs is out right now after having the surgery.  Essentially they cut off the end of the tendon and re-attach it to the bone, so now it is shorter and physical therapy is all about stretching the muscle to be longer.  I have it in the other elbow too, but it has never gotten as bad since I'm right handed.  A good stretch is to extend your arm straight out and rotate so that the back of your hand is facing in.  Now with the other hand pull the hand back towards your palm.  You'll feel the stretch right where you need it.  
As @Don P said, tennis elbow is the outside.  There will be point tenderness right on the bone on the top of elbow.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Tom King

I thought I had a picture of me using one of those Wood is Good mallets, but the only one I found was a couple sitting in this doorway.  The head is Urethane, and has just the exactly right density.  They aren't cheap, but neither is a hurt arm. The shape of the handle is pretty nice, too.

The head absorbs some of the shock, but does transfer the energy into the chisel.  I haven't used anything else, since buying my first one.



 

kantuckid

Well here we go again 8)... 

Being old enough, and having done too much hard work (and years of being an athlete) I've had tennis elbow on both sides and both at once too.

 It's a weird malady as it will appear then go away then come back-> like magic? Bad magic it is. 
 I have two of the common arm bands and have not had it since my mid to late 40's. I was a KY ARNG motor sgt at the time so still pulled some wrenches and that's when I noticed it-besides chainsaw work on my place.
 I will add that the arm bands not only work to contain the pain and move towards it going away, there are some arm bands (forearm straps)which are better designed than others. My issues were pre-web so should be easier to look around and find one thats got better a design. I had it come back a few times but not in over 30 years now has it returned. 

About that same age I had several bouts with calcium deposits in both shoulders. VERY painful! I was buddies at the time with a local young doc, a DO actually, and he quickly diagnosed it, gave me an Rx of little pills that quickly dissolved the calcium.  
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Jeff

Quote from: Tacotodd on June 05, 2021, 01:17:09 PM
I attribute mine to uncle Arthur 😣
The one from bewitched?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

firefighter ontheside

I tried two different arm bands.  One was from the doctor office and it had a little inflated pillow that was centered over the muscle.  It didn't seem to put enough pressure on the spot.  I got another one that was just a neoprene pad and a velcro strap that I liked better.  I remember the doctor demonstrating how it worked by just using his fingers to put pressure on my arm.  Then he told me to flex my hand and the pain was gone while he was holding pressure.  It is a strange malady.  They say sometimes it comes from an acute injury and other times it just comes from hard use.  I used to work as a part time carpenter back then too, so that didn't help either.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Don P

QuoteI used to work as a part time carpenter back then too, so that didn't help either.
:D I resemble that more every year. 3 shoulder repairs, 3 broken wrists, detached ulnar nerve and a squished C5. Ain't no telling where its coming from. As Jerry Clower would say, "Just shoot up here amongst us, one of us is bound to get some relief  :D". Just ran a tank out of the weedwhacker with no problem, they're a funny thing. Actually I think what kicked it off this time wasn't the jackhammering it came on after a few late night sketchup sessions, hours of fine mouse clicking and probably bad posture in the process. Motion is the lotion for me.

firefighter ontheside

"Motion is the lotion"  :D :D :D :D :D
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Tacotodd

Uncle Arthur "Itis". Getting old SUCKS  :-X
Trying harder everyday.

kantuckid

Quote from: Tacotodd on June 06, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
Uncle Arthur "Itis". Getting old SUCKS  :-X
But you don't have to be old.
When I did admissions at my tech school it was a weekly occurrence to have ladies come in looking for a ticket out of a sewing factory and piecework sewing that had killed there hands and many were quite young. Thing is there were not many answers in a tech school where most all training is hands on-even the less physical jobs are keyboard related. A few had become so bad they were referred by KY Voc Rehab and sometimes had been thru the Workers Comp process by seeing a doctor then getting an Administrative Judge award (lawyers retained by workers comp) of what was mostly an insult to a working person. I saw the figure of $82 a week real often-try and live on that?
 The stories I could tell of workers crushed, maimed severely, lost limbs and yet a pittance came their way to live on. Lawyers that think that way are down there at the bottom of the food chain! Some couldn't even drive a vehicle,. CTS was by far the most common malady though. Some of those women I met with couldn't hold a water glass in their grasp. Sadly college jobs like a social worker or teacher were possibilities but these women had kids and bills to pay plus often they'd been out of school a long time too. Financial aid for students is often not for adult students at all and tailored to kids from HS directly into college. It's a mess for adults to re-train- my specialty I guess as I did it and worked to help others do it. 
Yes, as a former tradesman and having been in the job training business a long time I do appreciate the realities of worker injuries and medical concerns. 
This forum is full of folks who work at several of the most dangerous occupations we have. 
In my own case I've had my share of repairs but also glad I got out early from hands on work I once performed. Now I can go on "Miller Time" in the afternoon when it's hot or my stuff begins to hurt too much. 
Tennis elbow is in candyland injury wise but I know how much it still hurts. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Magicman

A little old man shuffled slowly into an ice cream parlor and pulled himself slowly, painfully, up onto a stool... After catching his breath, he ordered a banana split.
The waitress asked kindly, 'Crushed nuts?'
'No,' he replied, 'Arthritis.'
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

kantuckid

I've got a "crushed nuts" story: Not so funny either. When I worked in a Goodyear Tire plant one of the pipefitters who worked in the presses where tires are cured was straddling a truck tire press he was repairing. The aluminum molds are in halves and we all knew his story as this guy Ralph-he managed to crush his nuts between the mold halves when they fell together. 
Makes ya cringe huh? 

Beats the other press story where the press top fell accidentally accelerating the ball bearing encapsulated "nut" that they ran up and down on- centrifugal force caused that assy. to fly apart and that man was killed.
 
Tire plants back then had a high incidence of back injuries mostly, not so many nuts or deaths-except for carbon black induced black lung deaths and cancer from Benzine. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

metalspinner

I've had it bad for a few months... tennis elbow, not crushed nuts.

Last fall my doctor prescribed physical therapy for me in the form of Dry Needling. The therapist inserts needles into the tissue and hooks up electrodes which makes the muscles, tendons, twitch. You can really feel the pulses between the needles. There were times she had 4 or 6 pair of needles going at a time.
Anyway, it did work and the issue was improving, but my insurance company would only cover so many visits, so I stopped going.

Prior to the needle session, they would have me doing various stretches with my fingers, wrists, etc. then afterwards would do some exercises to loosen and work out the forearms.

I think mine is a repetitive stress issue. My shop work is very repetitive. Cranking on wood clamps is horribly painful to me. And reaching out to pick up something that has some long weight to it gets me bad, too.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

addicted

That wood is good mallet looks sharp. I'm currently using one  copied off of what Chapell describes in his book. I wonder if the longer "arm" of my mallet is the culprit.  I may have to try one of those urethane ones.

firefighter ontheside

The longer the handle the more stress is applied.  Torque equals force times lever arm length.  I may have gotten a C in physics in college, but I do remember that.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

kantuckid

I sort of looked into various needle therapy's & accupuncture but it was all out of my area and out of pocket too. Plus it seems that many of them-I'm trying to be nice- have some hokey pokey stuff like meditation and aromas and other things I wasn't in tune with. There are enough western medicine doctors who also practice accupuncture to make me like the idea but I don't think Medicare covers them?

If there's anything good about tennis elbow it's that it goes away sooner not later for most people. 

I bought a small, re-chargeable electric StEM gizmo on Amazon and while it helps pain symptoms it's no panacea any more than the bigger ones Chiropractors use. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Wudman

Quote from: kantuckid on June 06, 2021, 04:19:44 PM
Quote from: Tacotodd on June 06, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
Uncle Arthur "Itis". Getting old SUCKS  :-X
But you don't have to be old.
When I did admissions at my tech school it was a weekly occurrence to have ladies come in looking for a ticket out of a sewing factory and piecework sewing that had killed there hands and many were quite young. Thing is there were not many answers in a tech school where most all training is hands on-even the less physical jobs are keyboard related. A few had become so bad they were referred by KY Voc Rehab and sometimes had been thru the Workers Comp process by seeing a doctor then getting an Administrative Judge award (lawyers retained by workers comp) of what was mostly an insult to a working person. I saw the figure of $82 a week real often-try and live on that?
The stories I could tell of workers crushed, maimed severely, lost limbs and yet a pittance came their way to live on. Lawyers that think that way are down there at the bottom of the food chain! Some couldn't even drive a vehicle,. CTS was by far the most common malady though. Some of those women I met with couldn't hold a water glass in their grasp. Sadly college jobs like a social worker or teacher were possibilities but these women had kids and bills to pay plus often they'd been out of school a long time too. Financial aid for students is often not for adult students at all and tailored to kids from HS directly into college. It's a mess for adults to re-train- my specialty I guess as I did it and worked to help others do it.
Yes, as a former tradesman and having been in the job training business a long time I do appreciate the realities of worker injuries and medical concerns.
This forum is full of folks who work at several of the most dangerous occupations we have.
In my own case I've had my share of repairs but also glad I got out early from hands on work I once performed. Now I can go on "Miller Time" in the afternoon when it's hot or my stuff begins to hurt too much.
Tennis elbow is in candyland injury wise but I know how much it still hurts.
Our company has over 100 foresters working in all types of terrain and driving 200,000+ miles per month.  We were north of 2 million safe work man hours when we lost our perfect safety record.  It was due to a carpel tunnel surgery for an admin.  I was at the doctor's office yesterday with a shoulder that didn't want to move.....along with generally feeling crappy.  She put me on doxycycline for possible tick borne stuff and did a full tick panel that will be back in 5 days.  She said the pain in the shoulder was tendonitis from repetitive use....rest a bit and then lift some weights to build muscle.  The other aches and pains are because you are not 25 anymore........ :-\ :-\


Wudman
"You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can't kill the spirit of patriots and when they've had enough this madness will end."
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

kantuckid

One chiropractor I've seen (trying to reduce pain from sciatica which he gave up and referred me to a neurologist) told me that in his anatomy training they saw that some people simply have a larger carpal tunnel than others. He meant that the band of cartilage through which passes the bundle of nerves, vessels that operate our hands didn't rub as easily in some people. I suppose that's a potential reason you'll see one old person who never had it while others can become bad off in there early work life..  

Those girls I see lately in the sports page news who throw a softball nearly 80 mph-guess what they will deal with soon enough? For every repetitive use there's something lurking to bite us. 

I would think the most dangerous aspect, and by far, of those 100+ foresters occupation would be the highway miles or the sedentary office time sitting at a puter, not cruising the woods. 
 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

One thing to take a look at, often enough I'll have a timber at a comfortable work height for sawing or layout but when you stand a chisel up on it and try to swing the head of the chisel is too high for a good swinging position. It might be worth trying to roll some scrap timbers up to stand on if that is the case.

Uhh, about that painless weed whacking the other day, yeah I just have slow reactions, yesterday was pretty miserable. This too shall pass.

addicted

Don
 One of the earlier suggestions mentioned switching hands. Tried it today. First thought, not being ambidextrous, the timber is way too high just as you said. Never even entered my mind before with my dominant hand on pine and occasional hardwood but off hand is very awkward, horrible form, and i don't even know what good form is supposed to be. Next was the weight. put the mallet on the scale and it came out to be 3 lbs 10 oz. If at the right height not bad, but swinging that thing twice as much now that I'm working on all oak in a bad position has to be the guilty party.  Cant wait to stand on some offcuts to solve the problem before my left hand falls prey to the same condition. 
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experience. 
Rusty

lazyflee

I get "tennis elbow" all the time from cooking. Chopping stuff and flipping pans all day long. Tried a lot of stuff to help it. A guy that comes into my restaurant is a trainer for the Seattle Mariners, he told me to wear a wrist brace at night while sleeping (keeps the wrist straight and tension off the tendon) Works like a charm. I wear the brace 1-2 nights in a row and pain be gone!! Try it

kantuckid

My experience differs:
 Back in my 40's when I was dealing with serious CTS symptoms/issues, I encountered tennis elbow for the first time. 
I was already sleeping in wrist splints to avoid typical CTS pains that wake you up. It sure didn't keep me from getting tennis elbow, I used the forearm bands prescribed by my doc which worked OK but uncomfortable at that. 

Over some years I learned to hate those wrist splints but that's the regimen for alleviating hand pain (and just maybe tennis elbow pain too-who am I to say? :D) and trying for a non-surgical resolution.
 In my case I view the wrist splints as a means to have only prolonged what really did help-CTS Release surgery. I'm 20+ years since the 2nd hand and still get much relief. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Lyndaker

I had tennis elbow last fall and it most definitely isn't fun. I was almost over it when I over did it and reaggravated it again. Several things I learned through it all. Pay attention to your body. Is something getting uncomfortable or difficult, then rest or do something else. Rest was the ticket to my recovery. Since that time I am much more aware what my body is telling me. Hope you heal up soon.

addicted

Three days under the belt using the wood is good mallet. There is a big difference in shock with the urethane head, especially when you grit and swing on oak. Required torque is also less with shorter design. Now with better height, better form, better mallet , should prevent this from happening again.
Thanks to all for your input.

Don P

I determined mine had come from the neck this time, in a sorta funny way. I was asked to check on some critters during a vacation and was dragging a hose, talking in dulcet tones to the donkey and wearing a ball cap. I failed to notice the low board across the top of a stall and about knocked myself out (I mean what kind of numb nut hangs a board at head height!). Full out rolling in manure, splatter on the ground. Whatever the jar did it reset my neck and the elbow let go. Now the rest of my body took about a week to recover  :D. Probably not chiropractor recommended but it worked. I'm more and more conscious of how often we can feel pain in one place but it is really coming from somewhere else.

florida

Several things you can do. Rotate your wrist and hand from left to right as much as you can, that will stretch the tendon. Take a styrofoam cup and fill it with water to the top and freeze it. When it's solid cut the top edge of the foam down a quarter inch or so, so the ice is exposed then rub the ice over the sore area. 30 seconds to a minute is enough and will probably be all you can take. Put the cup back in the freezer and use it as much as you can. Keep cutting the top back as needed. Don't overdo it.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

HemlockKing

I had it before, couldn't pick anything up without lots of pain, also couldn't let go of things quickly without pain, when I set something heavy down I had to let go really slowly, strange, but it was a horrible pain. I haven't had the pain in a few years, it just gradually went away for me until non existent, I guess I got lucky.
A1

BradMarks

Just saw this thread. I've dealt with carpal tunnel for years, repetitive motion activities will bring it on. Painting, nailing, weeding, whatever. Painful to wake up at night, hands so numb and lightning bolts going thru them. I'm sure many others have the same thing. Only cure I know (no, not surgery, never) is relief from the activity (do less) and stretch the fingers/wrist. Edge of a table or desk, fingers out with downward pressure. You'll know how much you can tolerate. As far as tennis elbow, yep, that too. Bone chips removed years ago, told then too change careers, hah!  Heavy lifting, arms extended easily brings on the inflammation, which is what tennis elbow is. As said before in this thread, forearm strap works wonders on the immediate pain, and a couple (400mg total) of ibuprofen to address the issue is what I do. I am a regular bowler, could not do it without the forearm strap. And I go by the adage of "I get half as much done in twice the amount of time". Translated: slowdown.

peakbagger

FWIW, Statins for cholesterol treatment can give symptoms of joint issues. I used to have to have my elbows (bursas)  drained on occasion and was lined up for potential carpal issues in the wrists and elbows. It turned out it was a side effect of Zocor statins. The problem went away when I stopped Zocor. 

mike_belben

Built a few more feet of rock wall yesterday with some good sized limestone boulders. 

 this morning left elbow wouldnt go all the way straight unless i endured a sheetrock screw sensation.   Its better right now but i can still feel it lurking just under the surface, waiting for a good excuse to hurt again. 
Praise The Lord

thermos

thank you all for sharing your experiences. 

when my elbow or wrists start to act up, one plant that helps me is stinging nettles (Urtica dioica)

i wave my arms around in the nettle patch and get about a thousand tiny stings. 

my skin doesn't mind it too much and the resulting burning pins and needles sensation seems to calm down the irritated tendons. works for me!


Don P

Now there's one I've never heard. Next time I absentmindedly wander into a patch "I'm doing therapy  :D"

HemlockKing

Quote from: mike_belben on July 09, 2021, 10:34:58 PM
Built a few more feet of rock wall yesterday with some good sized limestone boulders.

this morning left elbow wouldnt go all the way straight unless i endured a sheetrock screw sensation.   Its better right now but i can still feel it lurking just under the surface, waiting for a good excuse to hurt again.
It's a sinking ship now lol capn gotta go down with his boat though 
A1

mike_belben

If i could jump off and get a younger boat i sure would!
Praise The Lord

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