Hello all. At these prices, I think I'm the most expensive in the area but I'm having a hard time feeling bad about it. Does this sound about right?
1 Bush cord of hickory sells for $400 and has 28,000,000 BTU = $14/million BTU
1 Bush cord of Basswood sells for $200 and has 14,000,000 BTU = $14/million BTU
1 CDN gallon of oil sells for $4.50 and contains 165,000 BTU = $27/million BTU
I'm trying to calculate our coal costs and I'm running into some info that requires math. But so many zeroes!!
Our coal has 18GJ per tonne (2204lbs)
1btu = 1054.615 joules
1GJ = 1,000,000,000 joules
so each tonne of coal has 17,067,839.93 btu's? Something don't seem right cause that would put my cost at:
$80.00 per tonne / 17,067,839.93 btu's = $0.000004687 per btu or $4.69 per million btu........... something ain't right.
My slab cost are covered by lumber sales but don't burn near as efficiently as logs/firewood do.
I saw 24-28 million btu's per ton depending on what kind of coal it was. If it was 18 GJ/sec it would come out to 17060708.17 btu/sec.
To get the true cost per million BTU's you have to factor in the efficiency of the heating appliance.
There are on line calculators.
During Energy Management training both @ NCSU and with the Association Of Energy Engineers, we were taught to use 138,950 per gallon of #2. In addition to that, all the calculations I did while at the Defense Energy Support Center, we used the same number or 7.19 gallons per MMBTU/DTH/million BTUs.
Bruce
What is a bush cord?
Is there a difference between a bush cord and just a cord?
I'll join the ranks. I never heard of a bush cord either.
From Wikipedia: In the United States and Canada, firewood is usually sold by the full cord, face cord or bag.
A full cord or bush cord has a volume of 128 cubic feet (3.6 m3), including wood, bark, and air space in a neatly stacked pile.[11] The actual wood volume of a cord may be in the range of 80 to 100 cubic feet (2.3 to 2.8 m3) as stacked wood takes up more space than a piece of solid wood. The most common firewood piece length is 16 inches (41 cm).[12]
A face cord is one third of a full or bush cord stack of wood that is 4 by 8 ft (1.22 by 2.44 m) by 16 in (41 cm) and has a volume of 42.6 cubic feet (1.21 m3).[12]
I had never heard of a bush cord either, or atleast not locally. Learned something new.
Quote from: Kwill on January 29, 2018, 10:48:51 PM
Quote from: starmac on January 29, 2018, 10:18:19 PM
Quote from: Kwill on January 29, 2018, 08:29:48 PM
What is a bush cord?
You too huh.
yeah that's a new one on me.
This is why I like the metric system. Cubic meters are so much easier on the head :D
That being said, I have never seen firewood sold by the cubic meter (stacked) in my part of Canada. It is always done by the cord, as that is what the vast majority of people know and are familiar with.
We also have issues with variants of the definition of a "cord". A cord is 128 cubic feet of wood, bark, and air. That is the only measurement which is approved for use in terms of firewood sales.
If you use the forum search you can find 3 pages of threads where bush cord is used. Google is your friend. :P
Quote from: rank on January 30, 2018, 12:03:21 AM
Quote from: Kwill on January 29, 2018, 08:29:48 PM
What is a bush cord?
Is this sarcasm?
no sir. Never heard of a bush cord. Around these parts wood gets sold by the rank ( cut 16-18 inch long stacked 4ft high by 8ft long) or by the cord which is 3 ranks or 4 ft high 4ftwide and 8ft long.
Bush cord is new to me. But the worst part is I have read posts that it was in.
I don't feel all that bad,Tom did not know either.
Based on the BTU & cost I assumed it was a federal / standard / full cord.
Lots of first time firewood buyers here that only want a face cord. Not only is it best to specify bush, it's best to specify how many cu ft in your definition of face
I've never heard a single person here in VT call it a bush cord, so I'm guessing it's a regional thing. I never bothered to look into the meaning, since no one around here uses the term. I always assumed it meant the same thing as a face cord (which is a pretty nebulous thing, since it doesn't specify length). Learned something new today.
I think I'm going to stop using the term face cord. Being as you have to explain what it is anyway, might as well just call it a quarter cord or third cord
Firewood here is sold by the Cube (cubic meter). So imagine a box, 1m cube, and fill it with firewood, that's the measure. So you measure your truck / trailer box, and work out how many cube, and charge accordingly. Easy enough to verify with a tape measure.
Quote from: Ianab on February 04, 2018, 12:40:26 AM
Firewood here is sold by the Cube (cubic meter). So imagine a box, 1m cube, and fill it with firewood, that's the measure. So you measure your truck / trailer box, and work out how many cube, and charge accordingly. Easy enough to verify with a tape measure.
I assume a Cube is defined as neatly stacked, not just thrown in?
that is my question John.
I sold many thousands of cords of firewood stumpage in my career.
Here in NY the official measure is a standard cord 4x4x8, containing 128 cu ft of wood and air.
My sales were on an estimate basis but in doing this for 25 yrs only had a handful of complaints and I addressed them.
Firewood sales were while accomplishing TSI.
the fuel oil vs firewood figures cause my eyes to glaze over as I am a simpleton.
When figuring the fuel vs firewood are you taking the labor in account?
Quote from: Kwill on February 04, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
When figuring the fuel vs firewood are you taking the labor in account?
Since he is using the market selling price he is taking into account the labor involved in producing it. Yes, it's also less convenient than fuel oil or propane, which is why it never will command the same price.
If you take into consideration the man hours it takes to log, cut, split, deliver, and stack firewood, I would say that based solely on $ per BTU, your better off with oil/propane/natural gas. But burning wood provides great exercise, time outdoors, and the peace of mind of not contributing to the oil/gas man's yacht payment......This is PRICELESS.
Plus the fact that there isnt a replacement for wood heat. Most people who are use to wood heat freeze when they go to gas
Quote from: John Mc on February 04, 2018, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: Kwill on February 04, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
When figuring the fuel vs firewood are you taking the labor in account?
Since he is using the market selling price he is taking into account the labor involved in producing it. Yes, it's also less convenient than fuel oil or propane, which is why it never will command the same price.
Correct. As an example I have a neighbor that puts 7 cords/yr through his wood fired boiler to heat his house and shop. If he was to pay $400 delivered x 7 that's $2800. Based on btu's he'd spend $5600 on oil. So he saves ~$2800 if he buys the wood and ~$5600 if he gets standing timber for free (which he does).
**not counting boiler efficiency
400 a cord? That's expensive
My area wood goes for 160 to 175 for a 1/3 cord. Truck box load. 380 to 480 a cord.
That said just geting the 16 ft logs to my door is over 220. Then the processing labour and proffit.
Quote from: Kwill on February 05, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
400 a cord? That's expensive
There are people who get that around here for seasoned hardwood. We're in a fairly heavily wooded area, but just on the edge of the "bedroom community" area for Burlington, VT. $300-$350 is probably more typical, but the guys who sell for $400 delivered - dumped, not stacked (and have a good reputation) don't seem to have any trouble selling out. The least two winters were so mild, almost everyone had some left over. This winter, no problem at all getting $350 delivered.
Green wood goes for less. Then there are always the guys who sell for beer money...
Quote from: Kwill on February 05, 2018, 11:07:44 PM
400 a cord? That's expensive
I should mention it's $400 CDNso ~ $325 US.
That is on the upper end of what guys are getting here. My neighbor sold 40 cords for $300 last year. Increased his price to $350 this year and still was sold out by early November.
Seasoned hardwood this time of the year you can almost name your price.
Sounds like I need to load a semi full of red oak and head that way. A cord here brings 120.00-180.00.
How many tickets for transporting firewood would you get? :o
My house would burn 300 gallons a month in oil or four cords dry hardwood. The oil is cheaper, but not as cheap as burning the slabwood that I have to dispose of anyway. I have time and no money, so slabwood it is. I tell people that if I had to buy wood, I'd buy oil. :D
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 07:35:16 PM
How many tickets for transporting firewood would you get? :o
My house would burn 300 gallons a month in oil or four cords dry hardwood. The oil is cheaper, but not as cheap as burning the slabwood that I have to dispose of anyway. I have time and no money, so slabwood it is. I tell people that if I had to buy wood, I'd buy oil. :D
You must have a heck of a deal on oil, or your cordwood is really expensive (or your cordwood burner is not very efficient). I don't think I've ever run into someone who says cordwood is more expensive to heat with - more hassle? yes, but more expensive?
Oil is $2.67. 300x2.67= $801 4 cords of wood delivered has got to be $1,000, maybe more. Then I would have to feed the boiler twice a day. Minimum $200 a month savings in cold weather. As far as log length, it's a minimum of $700 for a tri-axle, but most are $800 or more. Then you have to cut and split, that is worth something, too. I based the comparison on purchased split wood to keep the labor factor out of the equation. If you value your time, log length would probably be break even with oil. If my house was well insulated, and my oil burner wasn't a 1947 Arcoliner stolen from a steam ship, I'd probably only burn $400 a month in oil. :D
I'd guess Dave is heating with a outside wood boiler, I've said for years that if I had to buy wood to feed my boiler, it would be significantly cheaper to buy oil or gas.
If you're heating with an efficient inside stove or maybe one of the newer gasifier units it may be different, but the old Central Boiler's are wood pigs, very inefficient.
How inefficient you ask, a 10 years back we went on vacation in Feb and had family stay to watch the house, kids & animals. I didn't want them to have to feed the boiler so I hooked up an oil burner (I have the dual-fuel option). We left Saturday morning with the boiler full of dry hardwood, a 55 gallon oil drum full of #2 and 4 - 5 gallon cans of #2 sitting beside it. By Thursday the 75 gallons of #2 was gone & they were burning wood.. That was the last time I used the oil burner..
Jason
I have a 6048 Dual Fuel, but I didn't have a burner in it. I'm burning oil in the house furnace, which is very inefficient.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 10:18:26 PM
I have a 6048 Dual Fuel, but I didn't have a burner in it. I'm burning oil in the house furnace, which is very inefficient.
Me too same 6048 - I believe the dual fuel option was a waste of $$$...
In my situation, if the wood runs out, the oil burner will start as it cycles at a lower temp than the wood boiler. If there's oil in the tank.
All I have in the firewood is my time .It's just outside my back door .Other than that it's a well fed geothermal which does nicely all things considered .Cheaper but certainly not free .In this area oil burners are almost non existent these days .Either natural gas or profane er propane that is .You can't even find coal to burn .Firewood is abundant and judging by the prices already mentioned rather cheap at 180-200 a full cord .Plus it's good stuff Oak,hickory and just oddles of EAB killed ash .
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Oil is $2.67. 300x2.67= $801 4 cords of wood delivered has got to be $1,000, maybe more.
Using your prices:
OIL1 gallon of #2 = 138,500 btu x 300 gals = 41.6 million BTU's for $801 =
$20/million BTUWOOD1 cord of hickory/ash = approx 26 million btu x 4 cords = 104 million BTU's for $1000 =
$10/million BTUWhat am I missing?
Quote from: rank on February 07, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 06, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Oil is $2.67. 300x2.67= $801 4 cords of wood delivered has got to be $1,000, maybe more.
Using your prices:
OIL
1 gallon of #2 = 138,500 btu x 300 gals = 41.6 million BTU's for $801 = $20/million BTU
WOOD
1 cord of hickory/ash = approx 26 million btu x 4 cords = 104 million BTU's for $1000 = $10/million BTU
Your wood burning appliance must be awfully inefficient to burn 4 cords/month.
Quote from: rank on February 07, 2018, 10:33:20 AM
Your wood burning appliance must be awfully inefficient to burn 4 cords/month.
Yup they are, and then some.
To be fair I've never tried just good dry hardwood, and probably wont.
I always burn whatever shows up (free), be it (likely green) pine, hemlock, pallets, etc.. And all of it sits outside covered with snow & ice. I cut it all to 40" and split it to 6-10" in diameter.
Weather depending, (for 15 years) I regularly burn a cord of that junk a week in Jan, Feb and March, heating to 72+ degrees a 2K sq foot basement, another 2K sq foot 1st floor and 1K on the second floor, plus all the hot water my wife & kids can use.
All told this winter (Oct 1 - April 30ish) I'll go through 15+ cord & if I had to buy that same wood I'd be ahead of the game (time & $$ wise) with oil or gas, these outside boilers are inefficient but so is the wood I choose to use. As I said a modern efficient wood appliance burning good dry hardwood would be a different story but that's sure not what I have.
Lots of folks ask about my boiler and my story is always the same, its a wood pig and if you have free wood and don't mind the time it will save you $$, if not stay with oil or gas.
Jason
Everyone is trying to look at this theoretically. The real deal is that the house uses 300 gallons a month or four cords of wood. That's it. There's no need for math. The house is horribly under insulated, the oil burner is from 1947, and while it is running very cleanly, it's still not an efficient design, and three owb is not very efficient either.
I beg to differ Dave. I believe there is a need for math. I would guess you're burning junk Wood.
I specifically stated dry hardwood. I know it takes 10 gallons a day to maintain my house at temperature. I knows it takes a cord of dry hardwood a week to maintain my house at temperature. What math is required to compare that? Sure, if you wanted to do a study of where all that synergy is going, fine. To compare the monthly cost of heating my house? No. There are a lot of places to lose heat between the owb and my basement.
The dollar value may be a littler closer to even, as I used $250 per cord, and I was just told that the price may be cheaper than that here. However, oil still doesn't require twice daily input.
I tried that green wood, once with softwood and once with hardwood. Cut it down, saw it up, split, feed to OWB, all in the same hour. Softwood took some wood, and I mean wood. I was cleaning a pasture, so I wanted it gone. Just did not need to burn 20 cords in one winter. :D That's probably a little high. But I do know I had to work to keep ahead.
The hardwood was no where near as bad. I try to get ahead now.
I burn dead, rotten wood and I burn less of that than the green softwood.
I don't see how the math works anyway. To many varables in wood. Different wood species burn different and last different.
I for one find this topic quite interesting.
Most sources I've found say a cord of hardwood like ash, oak, maple, hickory from 24 million BTU up to 28 million BTU. If we take these numbers as gospel, I am flabbergasted to discover that these OWB's are so inefficient. I was thinking about getting one to heat my 80x100 shop but not so sure anymore.
I have a neighbor with a indoor hardwood boiler. I know he only burns the best wood because he takes it from my farm and he leaves the softwood for me. He says it takes 7 cords a year to heat his house and shop....that's ~175,000,000 BTU or equivalent to approx 1250 US gallons of oil......approx $5,000 CDN for the winter.....that sounds about right to me looking at the sq footage he's heating. Another fellow I sell firewood to says oil costs him $1,000/month. He says he's saving money burning my 50/50 mixed firewood his open fireplace!
One more question for Dave: How far is your OWB from your house?
......and another question for those that are quoting hardwood prices in the $200 - $250 range. Is this split and seasoned or in logs?
200- 250 range around here that split stacked and your car washed for a year
Those prices are split delivered and seasoned. The boiler is 40' of Central Boiler 1" Pex, the insulated stuff, to the heat exchanger, then 80 feet through the basement to the oil burner.
And that's for top of the line wood. Not hickory ash or any of that junk wood
My experience with dual heating sources is closer to Dave's:
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 07, 2018, 12:07:20 PM
The real deal is that the house uses 300 gallons a month or four cords of wood.
My indoor oil boiler used 700gal for heating season, while I burned 7cord of seasoned hardwood once I installed e-Classic as alternative.
Made math real easy. If hardwood delivered is $235/cord (price i paid in my area); then if oil was less than $2.35/gal it was cheaper and easier to burn oil. [1 cord = 100 gal; for my situation].
I have new house now and wood heat is not an option (currently). Each home and heating unit will have differences, this is just how it worked out for me.
JJ
so here is a question that I did not see talked about. Are you guys that are getting what to me looks like very poor economy running forced air furnaces?
I have a switzer dual fuel boiler. It holds 700 gallons of water and is pumped through my concrete slab in the house. I have a 1000 gallon fuel oil tank which feeds the fuel oil boiler. I can run 2 winters using that as my primary heat source and burn roughly 600 gallons. The other fuel option for that boiler is wood. I rarely use that because I am lazy. The fuel oil is automatic I have to do all the wood.
I do have a wood stove in the house that is used to take the chill out of the air since the upstairs is not heated at all.
So are you guys all running forced air heat?
I'm tied into my oil boiler. Cast iron baseboard and radiators.
how big of a reservoir? or is there any? its amazing how long 700 gallons of water stays warm. That is probably why mine is so efficient.
400 gallons on the wood side of the exchanger.
No, Baseboard hot water with radiant heat in slab for 1/2 of the lower floors.
My home had several additions, with quite different r-ratings for each build. Older walls were 2x4, newer walls 2x6 with higher grade insulation.
Sounds like your house is considerably better built (tighter), or smaller (I had 3500 sq ft to heat), and a has a very efficient heating system.
In Maine, I was not that much further north than Canadice, so climate should have been similar.
Each home and heat system will have differences, so going by pure BTUs will not give the answer if it is saving money to heat by wood, or oil. I think end result is what matters most.
JJ
Quote from: Kwill on February 07, 2018, 03:53:08 PM
And that's for top of the line wood. Not hickory ash or any of that junk wood
What's wrong with hickory?
Quote from: JJ on February 07, 2018, 05:07:05 PM
Each home and heat system will have differences, so going by pure BTUs will not give the answer if it is saving money to heat by wood, or oil. I think end result is what matters most.
For someone trying to decide on installing a wood burning appliance, The home is a constant in the equation So I guess I'm thinking if it takes x btus of oil at a certain efficiency it should take the same btus of wood at a certain efficiency.
installing a boiler just to find the answer seems expensive
Quote from: rank on February 07, 2018, 06:22:29 PM
Quote from: Kwill on February 07, 2018, 03:53:08 PM
And that's for top of the line wood. Not hickory ash or any of that junk wood
What's wrong with hickory?
burns up to fast
It must not be the hickory we have in the north . Our stuff has slightly more btu's per cord as ton of hard coal .--Google it ,shag bark hickory .Try ash too it isn't far behind oak .
You want a hot fast fire stoke it with little pieces .Longer lasting fire larger pieces ,simple . ;)
Now here is good ole Dave in Mass .Big old drafty house,cord a week .Then comes old Al in the middle of a corn field who burns a little over a cord a month in the coldest of weather .--Now this is 2200 sq feet on one level,brick with thermopane windows and insulated like it were in Alaska .There in lies the difference .
I think I will stick with the red oak. I mix in some hickory occasionally. I actually got several I need to cut down. May burn some next season as I will let it season from now till then.
Yes indeed red oak is good firewood with one drawback .It doesn't weather well .Unlike white oak that does .I burned up several cords of red in my slash pile last summer that had laid on the ground too long before I got to them .< long story .The white oak,same length of time in ground contact,solid as a rock .That said you have to burn whatever you have .--it all produces heat . 8)
No, my owb isn't the greatest choice, but it is what I have. I have $2500 and three days of letting my plumbers dog out while he was on vacation invested in it. :D I only burn sawmill byproducts and hazard trees removed by my town. No trees have been taken down solely for the purpose of heating my house.
If one was building a new house, I would suggest putting every available penny into insulation and high R windows. Netzero would be my goal at a minimum.
$15,000 for a gasifier installed with Pex and a heat exchanger.
$15,000 for a hydronic primary system to tie into.
$40,000 for 25 years worth of wood @ 8 cords per year (Remember, you spent all your money on an owb, you couldn't afford the good windows or extra insulation, and let's assume the boiler actually survives the 25 year warranty :D).
$ for your time to feed the boiler, and clean up the mess.
That's $70,000 That could be spent on net metered solar, high R insulation, good windows, and a little electric heat for the days that the planned for solar gain isn't available.
Sure, my numbers are generalizations, but it is food for thought. At the end of either plan is the replacement of the boiler or pv system. In 25 years boilers will probably be illegal and a new pv system will probably just roll out as the new roof you needed anyway for a fraction of what either a roof or pv system cost in the beginning.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 07, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
... I only burn sawmill byproducts and hazard trees removed by my town.
Is the bark still on these slabs?
Usually, but not always.
Quote from: Al_Smith on February 07, 2018, 08:30:01 PM
Yes indeed red oak is good firewood with one drawback .It doesn't weather well .Unlike white oak that does .I burned up several cords of red in my slash pile last summer that had laid on the ground too long before I got to them .< long story .The white oak,same length of time in ground contact,solid as a rock .That said you have to burn whatever you have .--it all produces heat . 8)
I will have to disagree with you on red oak not weathering good. We had the place logged the end of 2012 first of 2013. Had red oak and post oak logged. The tops from the red oak stayed in good shape unlike the post oak. They got soft within the first year. Some of the red oak was 3 years before I got to it and it was all still in good shape and solid.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 07, 2018, 09:07:01 PM
Usually, but not always.
that certainly answers some questions for me about missing btu's
I'm not using slabwood when I'm talking about dry hardwood, I'm talking about cut, split and seasoned ash, hard maple, cherry, and red oak. Most of my slabs are pine. It takes almost two cords of slabs a week when its really cold.
Couple days wood when it's near zero. No ash from the softwood, which is nice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/20171220_154303~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518057897)
Quote from: JJ on February 07, 2018, 05:07:05 PM
No, Baseboard hot water with radiant heat in slab for 1/2 of the lower floors.
My home had several additions, with quite different r-ratings for each build. Older walls were 2x4, newer walls 2x6 with higher grade insulation.
Sounds like your house is considerably better built (tighter), or smaller (I had 3500 sq ft to heat), and a has a very efficient heating system.
In Maine, I was not that much further north than Canadice, so climate should have been similar.
Each home and heat system will have differences, so going by pure BTUs will not give the answer if it is saving money to heat by wood, or oil. I think end result is what matters most.
JJ
I am 2200 sq ft. concrete slab downstairs with radiant heat. No heat upstairs living room is clearstory to the roof so I have a lot of volume to heat which is where the wood stove comes in great.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 07, 2018, 09:47:13 PM
I'm not using slabwood when I'm talking about dry hardwood, I'm talking about cut, split and seasoned ash, hard maple, cherry, and red oak. Most of my slabs are pine. It takes almost two cords of slabs a week when its really cold.
Couple days wood when it's near zero. No ash from the softwood, which is nice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/20171220_154303~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518057897)
do you hire a neighbor kid to set by the stove and throw wood in every little bit.
Like it or not it's just a fact an outside burner uses a lot of wood as compared to an inside stove .Then you have to factor ,the mess isn't inside the house .they can take not only huge amounts per load but also larger pieces .Plus they will burn anything that fits through the door .Hickory to swamp willow ,dirty diapers you name it .
I know a guy in Ohio who heats two rental trailers plus about 4000 sq feet of house and shop .He claims he burns 24 cords a year .He loads it up with a skid loader .They aren't for everybody .
Quote from: Kwill on February 08, 2018, 07:17:25 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 07, 2018, 09:47:13 PM
I'm not using slabwood when I'm talking about dry hardwood, I'm talking about cut, split and seasoned ash, hard maple, cherry, and red oak. Most of my slabs are pine. It takes almost two cords of slabs a week when its really cold.
Couple days wood when it's near zero. No ash from the softwood, which is nice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/20171220_154303~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518057897)
do you hire a neighbor kid to set by the stove and throw wood in every little bit.
I fill twice a day. In cold weather, -10 at night, teens during the day, 12 hours is about as far as I want to go. If I'm burning softwood slabs, a fill means 42" long wood completely filling the box.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 07, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
No, my owb isn't the greatest choice, but it is what I have. I have $2500 and three days of letting my plumbers dog out while he was on vacation invested in it. :D I only burn sawmill byproducts and hazard trees removed by my town. No trees have been taken down solely for the purpose of heating my house.
If one was building a new house, I would suggest putting every available penny into insulation and high R windows. Netzero would be my goal at a minimum.
$15,000 for a gasifier installed with Pex and a heat exchanger.
$15,000 for a hydronic primary system to tie into.
$40,000 for 25 years worth of wood @ 8 cords per year (Remember, you spent all your money on an owb, you couldn't afford the good windows or extra insulation, and let's assume the boiler actually survives the 25 year warranty :D).
$ for your time to feed the boiler, and clean up the mess.
That's $70,000 That could be spent on net metered solar, high R insulation, good windows, and a little electric heat for the days that the planned for solar gain isn't available.
Sure, my numbers are generalizations, but it is food for thought. At the end of either plan is the replacement of the boiler or pv system. In 25 years boilers will probably be illegal and a new pv system will probably just roll out as the new roof you needed anyway for a fraction of what either a roof or pv system cost in the beginning.
I have a new house, lots of insulation (8 1/4" insulation on the walls for R33), 6" on foundation. I have the most glass on the south side, triple pane windows and a PV system. I heat with a masonry heater that burns wood. So far this year I have not hit 2 cords yet. Maybe around end of Feb I'll be there. Oh, and house is 2800sq ft story and a half not including 1900 some sqft basement. Basement is not heated at all, its approx 58-60deg usually. House is ALL electric.
So my house is efficient and my wood use is as good as it gets. Lets say 2 1/2 cords/year to be generous.
I have electric air source heat pump for back up heat if I don't want to mess with firewood. I don't want to guess what it would take using electric to heat the place. $200-$300/month? Probably more.
Going price for fire wood around here is $250/cord. So I use about $625/yr if I purchased wood. I cut my own. I'm retired, I have the time, the out of pocket cost is less than $100. Heating season runs from Oct to April generally, figure 6 months. No way electric is going to be $100/month to heat my house. Oh, and with the wood main floor is 72-74 and upstairs is 75-80. Try that with electric.
solar gain, yes I see it. On a sunny day my heat will go up a couple of degrees. Too bad sun does not shine at night.
Problem with solar is not enough sunlight in winter. I have electric bill of approx $150/month in Dec and Jan so far. No way I could heat my house with solar in winter. We had snow covered panels for a day here and there, no solar. Lots of cloudy days, very little solar. Oh and around here, if you don't have any storage (batteries) when the power goes out, your PV shuts down too. I would need to double my system I'll bet to live off grid here.
Summer time I'm in fat city, getting paid by the power co.
Smaller house, 1500 sq ft or less, more insulation then maybe I could do it. I'm sure it can be done. Now I'm at $14/sqft of solar cost. does not include insulation, better windows.
Dave, I better not say what I feed my OWB with. ;D Dead cedar, I mean the kind that don't even have any limbs on it. Been leaning against another tree for many, many years. No limbs at all. Then I suppose the dead standing fir would not sound good. I won't mention the stuff that has fell on the ground either. I have a tractor and driving across a dead tree on the ground 8 inches through is hard on the tractor. Might just as well burn it. I burn a lot of dead white pine too. My OWB will take a 54 inch stick, but very seldom it it really filled. With crooked wood and maybe a limb that is sticking out, makes it next to impossible to fill it to the max. I had my logged about 4 years ago, I'm still picking stuff up.
I need a way to get rid of this wood and a OWB is the answer. Been a few times when I had a water temp of 140°,but throw in some more wood and those blowers come on and in less than an hour, I have it back up to 180°.
I has a lot of dead standing white pine. Still have some left to cut. Like one of my friends tells me, I'm just giving it more drying time. :D
--Like I said they don't care what they burn no fuss about who has the best wood .Just throw it in there .Forced air draft it just does it's thing .They aren't for me but would work well for others .
Although good ole Dave mentioned cast iron radiators he didn't specify .If they are the ones made about 1930 they weigh about 300 pounds a piece and aren't nearly as efficient as modern hydronic units used on modern hot water heating .Ya gotta do what you gotta do at times which I can certainly relate to .
Now these prices on firewood seem a tad bit high if one were to heat that way .I'm 70 years old and grew up with at least some form of wood heat all my life and I've never ever paid for firewood .I wouldn't bother with if I had to buy it .
Outdoor boilers being able to burn junk is what got wood outlawed up here. They tried several years to just outlaw the outdoor boilers, but never could get it done, finally added wood stoves, pellet stoves, coal and waste oil and got her done.
-so much for the story Alaska is the last frontier ---
junk wood ??? :D New word for me. I don't want to turn this thread into a junk wood debate.
I burn ALOT of dead standing wood. Did I all ready say ALOT? ;D I know when a tree falls over and lays on the ground it starts to rot and adds all that good stuff back into the ground. But I'm not about to walk by 30-40 dead fir and start cutting 30-40 good hard wood trees. Those are my money trees. Last I knew I can't sell dead fir,cedar,hemlock,and pine. But it will and does make heat for me. Again,the reason I bought a OWB.
Just so others know,my type of OWB will smother the fire out when it's not needed to heat the water. So,when I open the door,there appears not to even be a fire in the firebox. When I went and looked at the Heatmor,the dealer did that. He left the feed door open and we talked about the OWB for a few minutes and with the door being open there was air getting to the wood and it started to burn.
I have burned all types of wood off my land.Good seasoned hardwood. Green hardwood and pine. I do mean green,cut it and a ½ hour later burn it. No more green for me. First off the smoke, there was a thread on here,or is it steam? All I know for sure is it took ALOT more wood. Won't do that again.
Now I have nothing to back this up,no fancy graphs or power point. ;D Just 10 years of burn time. I feel I don't burn much more dead wood than hardwood. Yes,I know I burn more,but it's a way to get rid of something that is not worth anything. And as far as smoke,I don't see that much of a diffeance. There again,I have no way to check out the particles in the air. Now if I am burning some of that wood dead wood that has been on the ground,now that will smoke,due to it not being dry. I do noticed I burn more with that wood.
And I burn what slabs I have. I only saw for me, I don't get 10 cord a year.In my area I can still burn my slabs.So on matter what,my slabs will make smoke.
OWB does have a bad name for smoke. The gasser are much better. I have an old cook stove that we use to use. That thing will smoke. But that's OK,because it's not a OWB.
So most of us use an OWB for waste recovery and not so much for a calculated cost of btu. Makes sense. I used to go through about $1700.00 worth of coal each winter and now I use up some chainsaw hours and extra wheaties for the boys to cut it all and keep it fed. I'm happy with my waste recovery program and I haven't wasted a minute counting how much wood goes in cause its already been paid for by my sawmill and dumped as waste. But I'd sure like a better boiler for wood. One designed for coal does not do as well with wood.
The water type owb seem to smoke more or worse than the force air units. I would guess because they spend more time smoldering than the force air.
Quote from: starmac on January 29, 2018, 10:18:19 PM
Quote from: Kwill on January 29, 2018, 08:29:48 PM
What is a bush cord?
You too huh.
Thats when you have cut a pile of wood in the bush, and your now totally "bushed." :D
As you can see by my profile I am pretty old but still feed my 13 year old classic OWB twice a day, usually 10 pieces of medium size split and DRY (2 years) wood, more if really cold.
My house is well insulated, about 3200 sq feet heated to 73 degrees.
I still cut some but my son and grandson now do most of the heavy lifting.
My 65 acres of Northern Hardwood forest has supported 2 households for 25 years now, burning tops from 2 timber sales and doing TSI work.
Regarding green wood cfarms comment is right on.
When I sold standing firewood in my forestry career, I would tell the green burning proponents to take 2 paper towels soak one, wring as much water out as possible, light, or try to light both and see which burns better.
Seemed to open their eyes.
My classic is not forced draft and burns fairly clean, smoke for a few minutes and then pretty clean.
I had a Taylor in the 90's forced draft that ate wood almost as fast as I could carry it to the unit.
Dont know if they are still made.
Seems this old thread is a good place to ask a fire wood question. Does limb wood have as many BTUs as the main stem? By limb wood I mean smaller stuff that doesn't need to be split but other conditions are the same.
Same as far as I'm concerned. I bring home wood as small as 2", sometimes. The smaller the pieces the quicker it burns though. I mix it in, stuffing the corners of the stove box. ;D
I cut my own firewood, factoring lost opportunity costs, it costs me three times as much to buy firewood versus me cutting my own. It costs 2 days pay to buy whereas I can cut and split 3 cords in 2 days and stack it in the spot it will dry and be transferred to the stove box. ;D Convenience always costs more, no matter how you dice it. Besides that, I draw regular pay all week, and doing the firewood on the side. Piece work has advantages, build up a bank so the regular pay keeps flowing. Money I earned, not welfare. ;D
I've seen people cut trees and take mostly just the main stem. What's not to like about limb wood that you don't have to split; it's all good.
Since it's oil vs wood in the subject line I'll add that this week oil is $2.249 US Gal. I still cut wood and burn my OWB but at these costs I wouldn't replace it if it died. This is in south central PA.
Let's see, stove oil up here is $1/litre, a 900 L tank costs $900. That'll last 2 months in a winter as mild as we have this year. 2 months will burn 1-1/2 cord @ $300/cord if I buy it. Nope, doesn't even come close to cutting my own for savings. If I had to buy wood, I would still be way ahead if my other choice was oil, propane is worse and natural gas doesn't exist. ;D I've been through that math in real life, like fools gold. :D An electric furnace heat would be half what oil is, and no chance of something leaking, plus insurance won't allow a barrel older than 10 years. I have no incentive to change. :D I got electric backup if I decide to sleep in, haven't used more than $20 worth a year. ;D Cost's $50 a month for dehumidifier in summer. That right there is inefficient, more than air conditioning. :D
I read a lot of the thread but might have missed some of it. If it hasn't
Already been said, what it comes down to for me is wood fuel doesn't cost me anything. No money out of my pocket. Gas, or oil would.
I am retired, need the exercise and my timber stand needs the improvement. I also like setting the thermostat at whatever temperature
I like without thinking about what it costs.
Everyone has different reasons for their heating decisions.
Here's an online calculator
https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating (https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating)
Around here propane is the new fad. Except when it gets to -40 it stops flowing, so you need an electric blanket/heater on the tank to make it flow. Our hydro is ridiculous in price (over 20c/kWh) depending on time of day.....
Quote from: Kwill on February 07, 2018, 03:51:27 PM
200- 250 range around here that split stacked and your car washed for a year
:D :D :D
Quote from: brianJ on January 14, 2021, 02:03:10 PM
Seems this old thread is a good place to ask a fire wood question. Does limb wood have as many BTUs as the main stem? By limb wood I mean smaller stuff that doesn't need to be split but other conditions are the same.
I guess for me I think it does. I burn a lot of smaller size hedge {Osage Orange} in my Garn that I don't split. It burns as well and long as the bigger hedge pieces that I have split. I seem to raise my water temp the same amount on a full load of limb size hedge as I do with a full load of split hedge.
[quote author=brianJ link=topic=99807.msg1786
All woods should have approximately the same BTUs per dry pound (there is slight variations), and they may burn at different speeds or characteristics.
But I've always collected and burnt anything that was worth picking up and stacking. If I have to haul limbs to a burn pile anyway, I may as well lop off the heavier parts to process into firewood, then just burn the light brush. It's easy work as no heavy blocks or splitting required, just throw limbs on a firewood buck and zip-zip with the chainsaw. Time consuming, but not hard work.
A popular firewood here is Manuka, which is only a small and spindly tree (what Manuka Honey comes from). It might max out at ~6" dia, but is a very hard dense wood, so basically it's like burning Osage Orange limb wood. Harder to get now because of the value of the honey, no farmers want to cut it down now as it's more profitable and less work to lease out beehive sites, rather than chasing sheep up and down steep hills. :D
Quote from: Ianab on January 15, 2021, 05:18:17 PMAll woods should have approximately the same BTUs per dry pound (there is slight variations), and they may burn at different speeds or characteristics.
Which is why wood pellets have about the same BTU content regardless of the species they are made from. In raw form, the difference is only wood density. For the same BTU, softwood takes up a lot more room in the shed.
In trying to use up some wood that had sat uncovered way to long I can verify even dry as popcorn there is a difference .Earlier in the heating season I went through a scad of that stuff .For about 2 weeks now it's dry white oak .Coals up real good unlike the half rotted ash and hickory which would just go to powder .
About mid March I'll try to get the rest of the ash used up .If not it will go in the fire ring on one of my patios of which I have three .I'll use it all one way or another .
Quote from: brianJ on January 14, 2021, 02:03:10 PMDoes limb wood have as many BTUs as the main stem?
YES (short answer)
That must be a very local term, cause I'm in upstate NY also, and have never heard anyone say "bush cord". Not saying it's wrong or anything, but the amount of guys here who are puzzled indicate that it sure isn't a popular term. But what matters is that you are getting $400 for one, regardless of what you call it. :)
Edit: I see I got caught in the "didn"t check the original date" trap. But the question about limb wood, yes I always burn it. Especially when Cutting on my own property. No point in leaving it on the ground to rot. There's a lotta heat in a tree top.
About once every 5 or 6 years I can gather up enough wind blown tops, limbs etc to heat my home for a season .Neat thing is you don't normally need to split it .What the hey a BTU is a BTU .
I never mind cutting live trees for firewood, since the woods always needs thinned, especially a young forest as it develops. I've got another 60 acres to go, the second time. ;D
Nothing grows nicer wood than a saw.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 20, 2021, 11:05:34 AM
Nothing grows nicer wood than a saw.
You could trademark that!
Quote from: mike_belben on January 20, 2021, 11:05:34 AM
Nothing grows nicer wood than a saw.
The Belben rule of woodlot management.
Well, i figure if ya arent cuttin anything ya arent managing much either. Leaving management entirely up to nature is more or less woodlot neglect.
smiley_hardhat