international log scale vs scribner and doyal for sawmill logs

[Durf700]

ok.. so I purchased my first load of nice big hemlock that is not from my woods about 2 weeks ago..  the logger told me 28 cents per board ft delivered.  I asked him what scale he was using and he said international.  I compared it to scribner and doyal scale and the international scale comes up quite a bit less than the other 2 scales.  did I get a fair shake or did I get raked over?  until I mill a log (which I couldn't on my extended holiday weekend off due to micro switch!) I won't know how the yield is on a log that is scaled from international scale vs the other 2. 

the logger told me that canada is driving down to my area and picking up the logs and paying 25 cents per board ft with they're own trucking.. which I have heard as being true on the same scale. 

whats your guys experience on yield and scale?

thanks

[Southside]

He treated you right.  Doyle and International cross over at about 32" IIRC, so under that International is generally considered more accurate.  Bigger stuff, Doyle tends to be more accurate.  Have never paid attention to Scribner and when I was selling logs I hated selling smaller stuff on Doyle as the mill was always getting the better deal.  

[Ianab]

International will generally give the more accurate measurement, especially with smaller logs. I think the other scales are deliberately designed to under value smaller logs. Mills don't want to pay as much for smaller logs as they are slower to saw and generally produce lower grade wood. By designing a scale that accounts for that, they can scale the logs and pay a single rate. Easier than sorting the logs into different size grades and paying different rates.

A narrow kerf mill should still be able to get some over-run even on International, but you have to deal with the smaller logs costing the same as the prime ones. 

Locally logs are bought by the ton, but they are graded and sorted at the landing, so the load will all be in that particular price group for size and quality.  

[donbj]

I'm a BC Gov't licensed scaler and have wondered about all these different methods of scaling for some time, especially since reading some of the threads on here that others deal with. They are tossed around that you can get hosed on this on or take the other guy with that one. There seems to be no real consistent consistency between them as far as volume and value.

The metric volume system we have in BC measures the actual total volume of wood in a log, and that includes the taper. That seems to be lost in some scales, as well as allowance for kerf that almost seems ancient in some regards. We scale for actual volume of wood in a log, not what we think you can get out of it, that is up to you based on how efficient you saw the log up.

We scale a cubic meter of wood. One guy gets 250bd/ft, the other gets 200 bd/ft, then another gets300 bd/ft. There is no way you can determine the recovery from a scale stick with all the variables in sawing methods.

[donbj]

ok.. so I purchased my first load of nice big hemlock that is not from my woods about 2 weeks ago..  the logger told me 28 cents per board ft delivered.  I asked him what scale he was using and he said international.  I compared it to scribner and doyal scale and the international scale comes up quite a bit less than the other 2 scales.  did I get a fair shake or did I get raked over?  until I mill a log (which I couldn't on my extended holiday weekend off due to micro switch!) I won't know how the yield is on a log that is scaled from international scale vs the other 2.  

the logger told me that canada is driving down to my area and picking up the logs and paying 25 cents per board ft with they're own trucking.. which I have heard as being true on the same scale.  

whats your guys experience on yield and scale?

thanks

A lot of mills get 250-275 bdft/M3 recovery. You're sitting around $100/m3 for hemlock. If that includes trucking I'd say you're doing pretty good at that price. But I don't know the details of your area and prices in general.

[moodnacreek]

I would pay that no problem. If you ever ran a log truck and loader you would give him a nice tip. [if the wood was good]

[Don P]

The metric volume system we have in BC measures the actual total volume of wood in a log, and that includes the taper.

Hmm, not really, like many other scales it is an attempt at coming up with the volume. The actual volume would probably require dunking the log in a graduated cylinder. Some scales are more accurate than others. There is a paper on the FPL website explaining a whole bunch of scales. Some are highly mathmatical, some I think I could look over an extended thumb and come closer with a guess  My point being, some scales try to figure recovery, others try to figure volume but none of them are actual, they are all estimates. 

[Durf700]

this is great info to discuss for all of us new guys!  I feel better that the logger gave me a fair deal.  from the sounds of things he may become my go to guy going forward.  he is a younger guy and doesn't seem to be afraid to work. 

[moodnacreek]

Take it from me, it's all about relationships.  If he chases every penny and you chase the cheapest logs there will never be one.  Said another way, when the market price increases for that hemlock , you might not be able to get logs because you have no solid relationship. 2 honest people can work wonders together over time when others are starving. Honest is the key here.

[Clark]

The metric volume system we have in BC measures the actual total volume of wood in a log, and that includes the taper.

Which is what the international scale does. Even allows you to adjust it for different kerf widths.

Clark

[A-z farmer]

A logger from mass that buys hay from me said last week he gets 1100 dollars for 4500 board feet of hemlock into Canada.For all the work involved and the finished board foot price it does seem to be a wide spread .

[Andries]

. . . . he gets 1100 dollars for 4500 board feet of hemlock into Canada.

If thats $1,100.00 Canadian - he'll get shock when he does the metric conversion to USD.
About 30% less!

[Stephen1]

ok.. so I purchased my first load of nice big hemlock that is not from my woods about 2 weeks ago..  the logger told me 28 cents per board ft delivered.  I asked him what scale he was using and he said international.  I compared it to scribner and doyal scale and the international scale comes up quite a bit less than the other 2 scales.  did I get a fair shake or did I get raked over?  until I mill a log (which I couldn't on my extended holiday weekend off due to micro switch!) I won't know how the yield is on a log that is scaled from international scale vs the other 2.  

the logger told me that canada is driving down to my area and picking up the logs and paying 25 cents per board ft with they're own trucking.. which I have heard as being true on the same scale.  

whats your guys experience on yield and scale?

thanks

I bought a spare micro switch when I bought the mill 2 years ago. Of course that switch is still in the toolbox. 
We have the Ontario scale here and  I can not buy a measuring stick up here anywhere. 

[donbj]

The metric volume system we have in BC measures the actual total volume of wood in a log, and that includes the taper.

Hmm, not really, like many other scales it is an attempt at coming up with the volume. The actual volume would probably require dunking the log in a graduated cylinder. Some scales are more accurate than others. There is a paper on the FPL website explaining a whole bunch of scales. Some are highly mathmatical, some I think I could look over an extended thumb and come closer with a guess  My point being, some scales try to figure recovery, others try to figure volume but none of them are actual, they are all estimates.

Actually it does. The log is basically a cone and the formula in the scale estimates that volume. Anyway, as long as the buyers and sellers are aware of the quirks of each it is what it is.

[Don P]

There ya go, you feel it is a more accurate estimate than another scale.

My point is none of these scales give actual volume or yield, they are estimates of varying accuracy. Every proponent has thought their scale is the most accurate for some purpose.

I'll admit to knowing nothing of metric scaling. Do you measure both ends to get an accurate taper for the volume calculation or are you assuming some standard taper? How do you treat sweep?

[Larry]

Its easy money.  Buy on Doyle and sell on International.  No sawmill required.

You should take the time to see how much you actually saw compared to the log scale.

Things that effect the yield.

Do you open to a 4" or 6" face?

Are your boards free of wane, moderate wane, or lots of wane?

Do you saw 4/4 at 1", 1-1/8" or 1-1/4"?

Are the logs straight?  Did you deduct for crook?

[donbj]

There ya go, you feel it is a more accurate estimate than another scale.
My point is none of these yield actual volume or yield, they are estimates of varying accuracy. Every proponent has thought their scale is the most accurate for some purpose.

I'll admit to knowing nothing of metric scaling. Do you measure both ends to get an accurate taper for the volume calculation or are you assuming some standard taper? How do you treat sweep?

I'm not trying to argumentive, I just have some concerns regarding a scale that scales in bd/ft and allowance for saw kerf. It's seen many times where a guy recovers quite a bit beyond scale and that is the scale being in board feet and a built in kerf allowance(up to 3/8"), that's where a bandmill and a good sawyer shines.
The scale system in BC gives no concern at all for bd/ft or saw kerf. You get a cubic meter of wood and if you want to saw with a 3/8" kerf saw or a 1/8" saw that is up to you. The amount of recovery is dependant on your techniques and processes in cutting it up. The more efficient, the more lumber.
The log is measured at both ends. Butt sawn logs are measured just a bit up from the fell cut to allow for excessive flare if there is any. The trimmed tops are measured on the end inside bark, as is the butt measurement. Bucked logs are measured on the actual ends inside bark. There is no set standard taper, each log is scaled and graded on its own merits.
Sweep is assessed for recovery in marketable/merchantable length of lumber by potential bucking down to 8'. If sweep is excessive the log gets downgraded to a reject. 

[donbj]

You should take the time to see how much you actually saw compared to the log scale.

I have done that many times. I have scaled many jobs I've sawn and I have recovered over 300bd/ft per cubic meter at times. I was the scaler and ran the scales at a local mill for many years and had some input into recovery efforts. The mills in the area generally ran around 250-270bd/ft per cubic meter quite consistently. And yes there are lots of factors as you mentioned that can affect recovery.

[Ianab]

Measuring the logs actual dimensions should give numbers similar to weighing the logs. Assuming a consistent density the ratio should consistent. If your wood has a specific gravity of 0.7 when green, then one cubic metre should weigh approx 700 kg. If a truck unloads 30 tons of logs, you can expect it to be about 43 cubic metres of wood. Then the value can be adjusted for the size and quality of the logs. As I said, locally logs are graded and sorted on the landing, so the whole truck load will be similar. Pruned (clear) butt logs are worth a LOT more than small knotty top logs. 

It's then up to the mill to work out what their production, in cubic metres of sawed product, (or bd/ft) will actually be from that truckload. 

Both those measures have you paying for the actual amount of wood being delivered. 

It's like buying flour. You buy that by the pound (or kg), not by how many loaves of bread there might potentially be in the bag. You could invent a "bread scale", and label your sacks of flour that way, but then it's down to the bakers recipe and the size of their baking pans as to the actual yield. I suspect that bakers would prefer to work out that a 20kg sack of flour is good for 50 loaves of bread, (or 45 or 55), depending on their actual production.  

Same with sawing, you need to know "what will this load of logs cost" and "What can I produce from it". Whether the load is scaled / measured / weighed / laser scanned / divined / eye-o-metered etc you still need to have the handle on $logs in -> $lumber out. Value of the first has to be less than the value of the second by a large enough amount to cover all your expenses AND be making some profit.  What the units of measure actually are isn't the issue, it's knowing what the actual values are in your scenario. 

[donbj]

I've seen wet heavy hemlock go under 1.0 conversion but not very often, at least in this area. That's 1.0 m3 per metric tonne. It depends on time of year as the conversion ratio can fluctuate  seasonally. All the other species around here are over that.

Mills here have to develop a stratum plan that sets out how much wood and what species will be brought in throughout the year. Each stratum has a species or species mix and the Ministry of Forests has to approve it and they set a sampling plan per stratum that randomly selects sample loads as they come across the scale by stratum/species all computer controlled, and those loads are hand scaled and the scaled volume is converted to meters per tonne that was on that truck. This conversion is applied to the other loads in the particular stratum and is what the contractors are paid with as they are paid by the meter.

We are randomly check scaled by the Govt check scaler for consistency and accuracy.

[Ianab]

I've seen wet heavy hemlock go under 1.0 conversion but not very often, at least in this area. That's 1.0 m3 per metric tonne. It depends on time of year as the conversion ratio can fluctuate  seasonally. All the other species around here are over that.

For sure, no matter what your measure is, you adjust your $ numbers to match the real world. 

[Don P]

Yes.

There are two things going on, one is volume the other is recovery. As long as one can relate the two in your operation it works fine.

The scenario that I see with the metric scale is 2 loads of logs, one with heavy taper the other of similar diameter with light taper. The yield will be significantly different for the same volume. 

Alternatively, International will be less accurate on total volume but more accurate load to load on my yield.

If the nature of the logs is pretty consistent metric or tonnage are fine scales in terms of scale to yield. If the logs are more variable I'm thinking International is going to reflect my yield more accurately.

[Durf700]

alot of great info for us newbies!  thank you for the input gentlemen!