Rift sawing a log vs. rift sawn lumber

[Peter Drouin]

Thats the coolest thing I've seen all week! Does the saw not have carbide teeth because it's old, or because it's cheaper, or because it takes less kerf... or all of the above?

I think he uses what he had on hand. It's his full time job now. He's working all the time.

[Bruno of NH]

There is a mill in Vt that has cut like that for clapboards for over  100 yrs .
Went on a tour of the mill a few years ago .
Jim/Bruno of NH

[dboyt]

Wow! Really cool.  I wonder if a swing blade mill could be adapted for that.  What the photos don't show is going from a rough log to a nice cylinder.  I assume he somehow did that on the mill, as well?  Once you make all those cuts, how do you get the boards apart?

[Magicman]

What the photos don't show is going from a rough log to a nice cylinder.

The 6th, 7th, & 8th pictures showed how it got to be a cylinder.

[FarmingSawyer]

Yup....those are very cool. I seem to recall there is one similar to that in a museum or fairground around here.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I have seen over the past 50 years probably a dozen mills like Peter Drousin's posted, sawing shingles or shakes.  They were using short logs.  I recall several of these mills in MO and I spent several days studying them.  I do not recall the species, but I suspect it was white oak.  The sawn shingle or shake production is must faster and provides flatter pieces than split or riven shingles or shakes.  (Riven is a term meaning splitting radially.)

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

QUARTERSAWN
For hardwood lumber, quartersawn has three definitions.  Perhaps the most useful comes from the National Hardwood Lumber Association.  It applies to species with the ray fleck pattern on a radial surface.  If the fleck is visible on 80% of the surface (used for grading), then the piece is quartersawn.  This definition certainly helps satisfy the customer's desires when they quest quartersawn. In order to get the fleck pattern the annual growth rings, when viewed from the end grain, need to be between 75 to 90 degrees to the face...not part of the definition but rather what will exist.

A second definition says that lumber is either quartersawn or flatsawn (or plainsawn).  The definition of quartersawn is based on a ring angle of 90 to 45 degrees.  In this definition, there is no rift sawn.

A third definition says that quartersawn has a ring angle of 75 to 90 degrees, but does not require the ray fleck pattern.

What makes these last two definitions somewhat cumbersome is that a single piece of lumber can have different grain angles in different location, so at what location is the grain angle determined?  This makes the NHLA definition very good as it does specify location.  This grain variation is more common with lumber from smaller trees....that is, in the first half of the 20th century, the definitions did not have the complexity that they have now.

RIFTSAWN
RIFTSAWN lumber shows the straight lines of the annual rings on the wide face of the lumber, but the fleck is not there or does not dominate.  As such, the rings will make a 45 to 75 degree angle with the face, roughly.

FLATSAWN or PLAINSAWN
This lumber will show the annual rings on the wide face having a cathedral pattern, a large "v" shaped pattern, or a curved pattern.  It results because the wide face is somewhat parallel to the growth rings.  The extent of the pattern depends on the contrast that the growth rings have within themselves, whether the piece is sawn parallel to the bark or parallel to the pith, and if there is spiral grain. 

With small logs, it would be common to see flatsawn grain in the center of a piece of lumber and rift or quarter on the edges.

VERTICAL GRAIN
The term vertical grain is used only with softwoods.  It is part of the grading rules.  VG has rings that are at least 45 degrees to the face, so it is similar to rift and quarter hardwood grain angles.  The key advantages to VG are that the pieces wear better (more uniformity) and shrink and swell less in width.  The uniform, straight grain pattern is often considered beautiful.  VG is often sold as clear.  Clear, straight grain means strong wood, but VG alone does not provide increased strength.

SAWING PICTURES IN ORIGINAL POSTING
The pictures in the original posting do not have accurate labels.

LEFT PICTURE
The picture to the left is called live sawing or through-and-through sawing.  It provides rapid sawing, but in logs with stress, it provides pieces that are prone to warp in drying and that are likely to have varying thickness.  Further, the lumber grade of the pieces is lower than with other sawing methods.  The first piece or two from the outside of the log will be true flatsawn, or plainsawn, especially in a large log.  The next few pieces will be flatsawn or plainsawn in the center (widthwise) of the lumber and rift sawn, and even quartersawn, toward and on the edges.  That is, they are heavily mixed grain.  The two pieces in the center, the widest pieces, will be true, 100% quartersawn, as well as the adjacent piece on a larger log.  Although there will be rift grain in sections of many pieces, there will not be pieces of lumber that would be mostly or all RIFTSAWN.

So, live sawing is fast, with the log only having to turned once, but the grain pattern is mixed (which might be of concern to a customer), lumber thickness can be variable, grades will be low especially for the pieces near the center, warping in drying can be severe for some pieces, and every piece needs to be edged.  It is also not possible to produce a cant or tie.  (Tie prices continue to increase, making tie production favorable in many instances.)

MIDDLE PICTURE
This sawing pattern can be achieved by first splitting or cutting the log into four quarters.  The log is then held with a special jig.  In recent years, it has been called quartersawing, but it was not called that in the past...I suspect that it is an Internet invention or misuse of the term that has spread.  Indeed, the splitting of the log into quarters, followed by sawing is quartersawing if the procedure in the rightmost picture then is used.  That has been the historic use of the term quartersawing, as it produces quartersawn lumber.  The sawing pattern in the middle picture produces a lot of rift sawn lumber, with the widest pieces producing quartersawn.  If this were a softwood log, almost all of the pieces would be VG.  In fact, perhaps the error of calling this picture " quartersawing " was made by someone that thought VG and quartersawn lumber had the same grain patterns.  A more accurate title for the middle picture would be "VG Sawing" or "rift & quarter sawing".

RIGHT PICTURE
The right sawing pattern will produce 100% quartersawn lumber.  It is very inefficient--yield is low, labor is high and sawing time is long.  The title of rift sawing therefore has no relationship to the product produced.  From a practical point, this technique is difficult to do on most sawmills, but a few mills have special jigs.

The grain pattern of the two pieces shown under the picture is accurate for this picture (but not for the middle picture).

Hope this, lengthy discussion provides some clarity.  Any questions? 

Incidentally, there are a good number of pictures of lumber on the Internet that show the incorrect titles for the various grain patterns.  The best source is the grading agencies, as they have to be accurate and have to be full of reality and practical advice.

[kelLOGg]

In the opening post the middle sawing pattern labeled "Quartersawn" has an advantage of sawing with not having to turn the quarter. If you "deal from the bottom of the deck" as Warren46 describes in https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,76373.msg1158738.html#msg1158738 you flip the quarter after each cut.
Do both methods produce comparable ray patterns?  I have always done it ala Warren46 even though it is a lot of turning. Orienting the quarter so that it is on edge seems tricky.
Bob

[Andries]

Just so I have this right, it's not an issue of how it's sawn - it's the angle of the growth rings to the board face that determines what it is.
A picture of an off-centre oak with four 'boards' in black. Boards numbers 1, 2 and 3 are a mix of quarter sawn and rift sawn, while number 4 is all quarter sawn wood, right?

[5quarter]

Yup exactly right.

[Ianab]

According to Gene's specs above,, if 80% of the board has the end grain at 75-90 deg, then it would count as quarter sawn.

#4 is certainly ~90 deg, so no question there.
#1 and #2 are probably in the spec as some of each board is ~90 deg and the rest is close.
#3 is more likely going to be classed as rift sawn.

[kelLOGg]

Thanks for asking that question, Andries. The answer pretty much an excellent summary to the thread...and it clears it up for me.
Bob

[Peter Drouin]

Wow! Really cool.  I wonder if a swing blade mill could be adapted for that.  What the photos don't show is going from a rough log to a nice cylinder.  I assume he somehow did that on the mill, as well?  Once you make all those cuts, how do you get the boards apart?

He uses a bar to start, After he had 4or5 off, he just snapped them off.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Just so I have this right, it's not an issue of how it's sawn - it's the angle of the growth rings to the board face that determines what it is.
A picture of an off-centre oak with four 'boards' in black. Boards numbers 1, 2 and 3 are a mix of quarter sawn and rift sawn, while number 4 is all quarter sawn wood, right?

Right.  On this end of the log.  The other end can often be different, and you have to guess what's in the middle.  :D

[Magicman]

Correct illustration about QS Andries.

Another subject, but if that log was sawed orientated as shown, those boards would seriously be prone to crook.  The off center pith indicates that that (Tom) log has sweep.  QS boards taken at 90° would tend to bow and would probably be QS on each end and Rift (at best) in the center of the boards.  That particular log would be better utilized if flat sawn.

Properly QS lumber necessarily creates waste (wedges) and should only be done on logs with a centered pith.  Every log is an individual and every logs will not lend itself to be QS.

[beenthere]

According to Gene's specs above,, if 80% of the board has the end grain at 75-90 deg, then it would count as quarter sawn.

#4 is certainly ~90 deg, so no question there.
#1 and #2 are probably in the spec as some of each board is ~90 deg and the rest is close.
#3 is more likely going to be classed as rift sawn.

Right, and all four graded and sold as "quarter sawn". And Andries included a pic of the crook that happens, due to growth stresses in a tree that increase as the tree lays on growth layers over time.



 

[Andries]

I can't say enough about this forum!
Doesn't matter what you mill, how you mill or what you own - the depth of experience and 'know-how' by the 'Forumites' is super impressive!
Example: I posted a late-night foggy headed question and it got answered and confirmed by daybreak. . . and by people from around the world! Priceless. One member even posted a photo of mine to illustrate a point that I hadn't figured out yet.
Thank you all; perhaps one of these years I'll be able to contribute more than I ask for. . . once I work my way through my rookie years.
Cheers.

[Magicman]

And your picture is a perfect example of what I described in reply #39 would happen.  Some logs can not be QS and sometimes even flat sawing will yield lumber of marginal quality.  It takes good straight pith centered logs to make the highest quality lumber whether QS or otherwise.

I often tell customers that you can't make chicken pie out of chicken poop.  They laugh, but understand.   

[dboyt]

Riving wood with off-center grain always works for me, no problem!

[Magicman]

Yup, sometimes makes better firewood than lumber.   :D

[5quarter]

Personally, I try to stay away from those logs that are extremely off center, but once in awhile, I still saw them. Years ago, Tom explained a good rule of thumb for cutting those types of logs. as usual, his advise has proven sound. When looking at the end of the log, draw an imaginary line perpendicular to the off-center line and never make a board that crosses that line. one side is in compression and the other side is in tension, and any board that crosses that line will make firewood. If you're sawing construction lumber from the log, do as magic suggests, as 2xs with crook are mostly unusable, where as bow and even twist can be used if you know what you're doing. If you're sawing 1xs for cabinet grade, quarter saw as much as you can. some will crook, but they will lay flat. it can be cut to shorter lengths and the crook can be trimmed out once its dry. If that log is big enough, make your first cut along the imaginary line and discard the small side. Then either quarter the big 1/2 and make your lumber by flopping the quarters back and forth or radial cut the big 1/2 by rotating and taking boards and wedges. If you have other, better logs in your yard, you might consider Dboyts strategy and heat your shop with it.

[kelLOGg]

When looking at the end of the log, draw an imaginary line perpendicular to the off-center line and never make a board that crosses that line.

5Q, I'm trying to get a clearer picture in my mind of this. Referring to Andries post #33, the off-center line is a horizontal line passing thru the pith; the line perpendicular to it also passes thru the pith. Is this right?

Taking it one step further: Since we don't want the pith in lumber make the first cut a few inches to the right (again referring to Andries post) of the pith before Qsawing the larger part.

Am I tracking you?
Bob

[Jemclimber]

A little off topic any not meant to criticize, but splitting wood as shown by dboyt is bad for your shoulders and not as efficient as splitting with your wrists.  Your wrists should never come above your shoulders and the maul should be swung with a "round house" motion.  It creates more speed, and greater energy to split, and it saves your shoulders from long term problems and pain.     ;)
  Dboyt, that looks like a very nice homemade spitter in the background with a nice table on it. Do you like the extra exercise that using a maul provides or were you just out of gas or something?   ;D

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

A little off topic any not meant to criticize, but splitting wood as shown by dboyt is bad for your shoulders and not as efficient as splitting with your wrists.  Your wrists should never come above your shoulders and the maul should be swung with a "round house" motion.  It creates more speed, and greater energy to split, and it saves your shoulders from long term problems and pain.     ;)
  Dboyt, that looks like a very nice homemade spitter in the background with a nice table on it. Do you like the extra exercise that using a maul provides or were you just out of gas or something?   ;D

Anybody that can really swing a maul sure ain't outa gas...

Herb

[Thehardway]

I want to personally thank all of you who have participated in this very informative and educational discussion on what was once very confusing terminology.  I especially thank the Wood Doc for his detailed post which pretty much clears this issue up for me and confirms what I suspected but had no authoritative reference on.  Now I have that, and I feel confident in my ability to discuss the matter in an intelligent and informed way. Unfortunately there is no way to correct all of the wrong pictures and descriptions in the public domain so we will have to learn to identify and deal with them and those who fall victim to them.

The issue came to me as I have recently taken an interest in boat building.  In a way, boat building can be the ultimate expression of wood knowledge, use, craftsmanship and joinery skills and understanding how to use and saw boards based on what they will do as they dry over time is a critical skill.  A skilled boat wright takes advantage of all of these natural tendencies in the wood he chooses and for the location in which they are used.  There may be times when he wants to use a board that is crooked and other times where a board must remain straight and true.

In discussing lumber with a boat wright with considerable age and experience in the craft, it became apparent that he was using different terminology than what I was familiar with or I had assumed previously to be correct.  I now know how to interpret correctly.  It seems many of these boat wrights and builders, have worked with local sawyers and suppliers over several decades or more and have a general understanding of local terminology.  The species of wood they use, the types of cuts and the way they choose the materials requires a special knowledge and skill for both the sawyer and the builder.  I am attempting to learn both of these. 

A good example of interpretation would be the term "Scantling" which means something slightly different in each industry of shipbuilding, timberframing, masonry and machinists.


Another interesting thing that has come out of this is a slight bit of confusion about which cut of wood or grain pattern creates the most dimesionally stable peice of wood and/or the peice with the best wear resistant qualities.

I was always under the impression that a piece of true, quarter sawn lumber was the most dimensionally stable and produced the best wear resistance qualities as shrinkage was uniform and grain was perpendicular to the face. After further study, it seems several sources claim that rift grain lumber is more stable and is superior in wear resistance to that of QS.  This was a surprise to me and even more a surprise to find that a properly sawn, rift grain board, demands a higher premium over quarter sawn boards in a few industries.  Being able to properly  identify the sought after characteristics and maximize methods to yield these boards can be very rewarding and increase the value of a log significantly.