Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

[Walnut Beast]

Great job! Very nice video Yellowhammer 

[Andries]

You make it look easy Robert.
Especially when you get the quarter log to balance on one tooth of the chain turner.  😉 (bet that took a few trys)
Up here in the Great White North, Burr Oak logs 22" and over are considered biggies. 
I'll carry on with the rrqs on my poverty sticks, and dream of the big timbers in 'Bama.
Thanks for the excellent video. 👍👍

[Brad_bb]

That's great YH!  Do you have a logger you buy such clear oak from?  Do you have to pay a lot for such clear logs?  Are you competing with overseas buyers?

[69bronco]

Thank you for sharing!

[customsawyer]

Nicely done.

[nativewolf]

That's great YH!  Do you have a logger you buy such clear oak from?  Do you have to pay a lot for such clear logs?  Are you competing with overseas buyers?

That big WO is worth $2-$2.50/bdft to a logger if they know the commercial quartersaw market.  I too am curious as to what that costs in Alabama.

[YellowHammer]

I mainly quarter saw white oak, red oak, and sycamore.  I can cherry pick high grade logs from local sources, but it takes time to stockpile enough logs to bother to saw up.  I do compete against other buyers, but it's not a problem.  Recently, I paid $800 for one white oak log, which was a lot, but I sold the wood for $3,200, a pretty good return.  That's why I won't use the old QS techniques, a miss is big money.  With this technique, I may go several logs without any misses.  I can confidently buy logs knowing I won't butcher them up.  

This also gives me an ace up my sleeve which allows me to switch from flat sawn mode to quarter sawn mode instantly, on any log, if I get into good log, unexpectantly.  For example, if I'm just mill run sawing and I square a cant and the log looks good and clear, I'll just split the cant wherever I am and get to RRQSing it.  The cant doesn't have got be an octagon, it can be traditionally four sided, as well.  So each log can be switched from flat sawn to QS at will, and vice versa.  There's no need to be over committed in either direction until I actually get into the log. 

Handing the little wedges with the chain turner can be sporty, but it's rare for me to drop one.  The goal is to be hands off on every log except the offloading.  I'm not even sure where my mill cant hook is.

I guess people saw how effective the drag back shelf was in pulling several boards back at once, holding them, and dropping them on the outfield table exactly where I wanted them.
 

 

[dougtrr2]

It looked like the first step, not shown, was to turn the log into an octagon.  Is it critical that it be a perfect octagon or just close?

Doug in SW IA

[WDH]

You can't reverse roll with the claw turner on the LT40 the same way as with the chain turner so that you have to use the 2-plane clamp to position the the growth rings to the saw blade.  Jake and I quartersawed a lot of logs with the reverse roll of the chain turner on his LT70, but Robert Robert figured out how to reverse roll using the 2-plane clamp to move and hold the cant in all kinds of crazy angles and positions.  That was a breakthrough for us chain-turner-challenged-just-have-a-claw-folks.  

[nativewolf]

I mainly quarter saw white oak, red oak, and sycamore.  I can cherry pick high grade logs from local sources, but it takes time to stockpile enough logs to bother to saw up.  I do compete against other buyers, but it's not a problem.  Recently, I paid $800 for one white oak log, which was a lot, but I sold the wood for $3,200, a pretty good return.  That's why I won't use the old QS techniques, a miss is big money.  With this technique, I may go several logs without any misses.  I can confidently buy logs knowing I won't butcher them up.  

This also gives me an ace up my sleeve which allows me to switch from flat sawn mode to quarter sawn mode instantly, on any log, if I get into good log, unexpectantly.  For example, if I'm just mill run sawing and I square a cant and the log looks good and clear, I'll just split the cant wherever I am and get to RRQSing it.  The cant doesn't have got be an octagon, it can be traditionally four sided, as well.  So each log can be switched from flat sawn to QS at will, and vice versa.  There's no need to be over committed in either direction until I actually get into the log.

Handing the little wedges with the chain turner can be sporty, but it's rare for me to drop one.  The goal is to be hands off on every log except the offloading.  I'm not even sure where my mill cant hook is.

I guess people saw how effective the drag back shelf was in pulling several boards back at once, holding them, and dropping them on the outfield table exactly where I wanted them.

The video was quite excellent, no silly music, just sawing and explanation was excellent.  The only thing I'd have enjoyed would have been to see the pull back and sort in more detail. 
So if it is ok to ask, what were the dimensions of that $800 log.  

[Larry]

Excellent job on the video, I enjoyed it.  Thanks for taking the time to make it and share with us!

A couple of questions.  Do you like the dragback fingers better than your modified dragback on the old mill?  Sawing on the 70 was quite fast especially the drops.  Was it all real time or did you speed up the video?

[boonesyard]

We get a lot of big bur, white and red oaks here that we've been using this method on. Thanks Robert, excellent video.

I really like my 50 but MAN, that 70 really cooks  .

[YellowHammer]

It looked like the first step, not shown, was to turn the log into an octagon.  Is it critical that it be a perfect octagon or just close?

Doug in SW IA

The outer shape doesn't really matter as long as the pith is properly aligned and the edges are straight and parallel so that when they are rotated everything stays straight.  I routinely do rectangular cants, and big logs that have been Bibbyed down to something manageable may have 9 sides, or whatever.  There is a failsafe, if the pith comes out of alignment on a log half, I just use the toeboards to realign and saw it.  

However, you are correct, I did skip the whole gun barreling part of sawing in the video, but there are some tricks to make it go faster and still be accurate, maybe I'll make another video on that.

High grade white oaks here go for about $1.50 to 2 per bdft, the $800 log was about 450 bdft, I don't remember exactly, but not until I had octagoned it was I able to get it within my 34" blade guides to split it.  Thats where a LT70 wide really shines, I can split some big ones, and once they are split, I can RRQS them in a heartbeat.

Excellent job on the video, I enjoyed it.  Thanks for taking the time to make it and share with us!

A couple of questions.  Do you like the dragback fingers better than your modified dragback on the old mill?  Sawing on the 70 was quite fast especially the drops.  Was it all real time or did you speed up the video?

I appreciate you all watching it.  It just seems I don't have a lot of time or skill to make the videos because I'm sawing and don't have time to run a camera.  In this case, my little Go Pro was locked up, so I shot the whole thing with my iPhone, which is why the picture is slightly rotated.  Ooopps.  

Rest assured, all the sawing, dragback, head raise, head lower, and etc clips were done in real time, no speed ups.  I did skip through a couple on the two plane clamping sequences because they were even boring to me and didn't add anything to the sawing.  I was going to delete them, they totaled about 10 seconds, but I figured if I deleted them you wouldn't see the whole sequence, from start to end, and it would leave a gap, so I just jumped through them.  

One of the problems with the LT70 is that while the engine is running, the hydraulics are actually a little too fast, so I will idle down and run the hydros at idle, which is maybe 1/3 full speed maybe or slower.  So every now and then in the video, you'll hear the engine pitch change or even the squal of the brake, as I slow down to idle to do more precise hydraulic movements.  I'm not changing the speed of the video, I'm changing the speed of the hydraulic functions.  This is really nice with the engine driven hydraulics of the LT70, its got both high speed and low speed hydraulics, based on throttle setting.  I use both modes all the time.       

The jury is still out on whether I like the individual fingers of the LT70 or the mono dragback of the LT40.  The biggest issue I have with the LT70 fingers is when I'm sawing the first wedge cut and the little bugger actually slips between the fingers and dismounts the band on a high speed pullback with the band running.  That's another reason I saw down several boards, I need to get the width greater than the distance between the fingers.  I've also had it happen with a stray sliver of bark.  However, the fingers give me more visibility than the LT40 did.

I really like my 50 but MAN, that 70 really cooks  .

Yes it does, it will smoke through logs.  I'm using 1.5" x 0.055" WM Turbo 7 Silvertips (not Double Hards).  As I mentioned above, this video is not creative film editing, its just pure, real time routine sawing, height adjustments, auto down, pattern mode switching, etc joystick based milling with a LT70.  It's just plain fast, and it will do it day after day.  I figure if folks want to watch a science fiction video, they can just rent the movie Avatar or the Star Wars, not one of my sawing videos. :D :D

The video was quite excellent, no silly music, just sawing and explanation was excellent.  The only thing I'd have enjoyed would have been to see the pull back and sort in more detail.

Welllll..., I was having a little user error with my camera.  My GoPro wasn't working and I did all the filming with the iphone, and I figured if I moved it, I'd never get it back to the correct location.  So I just left it where it was, on the roller table, propped it up with a rock.  The only time I did the final filming of the stacking was at the end, and you may notice I was filming with one hand and offloading with the other.  At least I didn't drop the camera, but I sure didn't do a good job keeping everything centered.

You make it look easy Robert.
Especially when you get the quarter log to balance on one tooth of the chain turner.  😉 (bet that took a few trys)

As they say down here is the south, sometimes all you need is one good tooth. :D :D

I have flopped a few in the wrong direction with the turner before, throw them off the mill, but this one wasn't too bad.  

[alan gage]

I really appreciate the video. Cleared up a couple things I'd either forgotten or missed when the post was first started. Big thumbs up.

Alan

[Ljohnsaw]

I read your descriptions from quite a while back.  What I pictured in my mind was WAY different that what you were doing with regards to the angle to the rays and how many boards you were able to cut before adjusting the cant.  Great video.  Wish I had something to practice that on (and a hydraulic mill, too!)  I'll have to watch that a few more times to watch those marked fleck angles to the blade.  The only thing I didn't like was your banner at the end blocking the view of the boards!  Would have been better at the top or maybe a transparent banner.

[caveman]

Robert, thank you for taking the time to make the video and post explanations. I noticed the pulsing delivery of the blade lube. I think that would benefit us while sawing live oak. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

Wasn't it "regular roll" in the video?  If so when do you reverse roll?
Did you cut it blind from the near end, or were you checking the batches you pulled back before proceeding?  In GA with the sycamore you were looking at each board not trusting what the ends said. 

[Tristen]

Ya the title " reverse roll "  had me confused also.  I almost did not read this post.   I figured you needed the chain log turner.   But I can use that method with the claw turner on the wood mizer LT 35.  Correct ?   

very cool thanks for posting,  i subscribed to HobbyHardwood for sure can't wait for the next trick, and i can't wait to screw up my first quartersawn white oak.  (think i will start small)   Thanks for sharing.

[YellowHammer]

The reverse roll comes when sawing the other half of the log with the claw turner and the log clamp with my LT40.  It rotates the log half inward, towards the mast.  So it does the same movement, except in reverse.  I had some photos of it in the beginning of the post.  With the LT70 I can flip the log half pretty easy and cut from any direction.  

In Georgia, at the project, the logs were a little more difficult, they had lots of twist and barber pole type grain.  Thats hard to predict and its best to check every board or two as it comes off the mill.  However, with straight, easy predictable logs, I can saw it in groups of boards, as long as it's following the proper behavior.  Definately, when I pulled back a load, I would check each board when stacking it on the pallet, like I did at the end, so I knew what its pattern was, and how far I could go off angle to the rays.  Thats why at the end, when I was really off angle, I took a wedge cut and physically checked it before I continued sawing as I wanted to make sure I was on target to get every board of the last wedge.  

The marked lines on the video really show how far I can cut "off angle" and still get good fleck.  It has to do with sawing the initial boards just leading into the fleck, and the fleck building as I get deeper and closer to parallel to the rays.  If you look real close on the last piece, I started high, inspected the wedge, and sawed down until I was at max fleck and parallel to the marked rays and about split the black line.  So I knew then if I flipped that remaining piece, and put that side to the deck, and started sawing form the top, no matter what happened, I would drop into max flck boards.  So part of knowing when to stop sawing and rotate is in some part having an idea of how far off angle I can go to hit fleck on the next series.  

This technique is all about taking the guesswork out of quarter sawing.  Another reason I sawed and then pulled back packs of multiple boards blind was just to show folks that guessing wasn't involved, I had enough confidence in the technique that I would saw blind, "knowing" what I was getting into.  So I figured I'd hang my tail to the wind, and if I  didn't believe in my technique, why would anyone else?  So some of it was just showing off.  By the way, it was a true 100% hit rate log.  Zero misses.  

The lines on the end of the log really will help show some of my decisions, and why I made the cuts I did.  If you want to really get the hang of it watch the lines, watch my cuts, and watch the rotations.    

[scsmith42]

Fantastic video and method Robert!

Many thanks for sharing your method with us.

Scott

[Mossy Chariot]

Great video Robert!!!
How many boards did you take in the middle (around the pith) before you stared the reverse roll on the halves? And were you sawing 4/4 or 5/4 boards? Thank you sir!

[Peter Drouin]

 

[Brad_bb]

@dougtrr2
I think the point of gun barreling (making an octagon), is not necessarily to make it a particular shape, but rather to make the log turn or roll such that the pith will always be the  same distance from the outside.  It makes sure the boards you cut are not tapered.  It makes the log symmetric from one end to the other.  It doesn't matter if the pith is offset either, just so long as it's offset the same on both ends.  This will mean when you are cutting boards, they will be a consistent width from one end to the other.  In order to achieve this though, you're not just making an octagon, but when you go to cut each face of the octagon, your pith must be the same distance to that cut face on each end of the log.  I actually measure the distance of the center of the pith to the mill bed and make sure it's the same on each end and then cut that face.  Cut the face such it's as high as possible while still giving you flat face.  I've seen some on here even have some wane on the face just so long as there's enough cut fact to register on the mill to keep the log section rolling evenly or clamped evenly so that the boards you cut off are consistent width from end to end.  I hope this makes sense?

As Yellowhammer said, you can RRQS a square cant, but you do lose some width(probably 1"-3"  on the boards at the center of a square face).  The octagon shape helps maximize the width of your boards.  A true round log would be ideal, but we  have no way to make a round log that is has the pith located at the same place on both ends unless you had a giant lathe that could use the pith as centers, which would not be practical.

[WDH]

If you have a manual mill and don't have the log turner and two plane clamp to hold the cant at a bunch of crazy angles, you can use the facets from the octagon to put down on the bed to stabilize the log and be able to manually clamp the cant so that it does not move when sawing. By rotating around the half logs facets positioned correctly you can still yield 85+% quartersawn boards.  However, you will probably have to spin one of the half log cants around to position it with the right facets to be rotated on the bed so that you can orient the rings properly to the saw blade. 

I am selling the quartersawn sycamore boards from the 2019 Georgia Project.  I sold one the other day and as I pulled it out of the rack to get it ready to ship to Williamsburg, VA, I saw Yellowhammer's blue lumber crayon teaching marks on the end grain of the board.  Made me smile ;D.

[nativewolf]

Hey, how you doing Peter?  Feeling ok?