Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

[nativewolf]

That looks closer to some of our white oak down here.

Yes, maybe a black oak but ...looks like a WO to me.  In which case it will QS wonderfully but you could sell the logs to the local amish QS market at $2.20/bdft if you like.  

[jtmccallum]

Upon further review this appears to be a white oak.  Deep lobes with rounded tips. I had white oak leaves confused with swamp oak for starters. I have swamp oak, white oak, burr oak and red oak in this woodlot, don't know if I have any black oak. Thanks for your help guys.  :P

[WDH]

I bet that you do have black oak.  There are some in Jeff's backyard.

[jtmccallum]

Thanks Danny,  You are the master    I need to study up on my tree ID I have a few more to get out this winter. 

[Cruiser_79]

I read this topic several times and finally decided to try it myself with some alder logs. First I made some mistakes and took too much bark off the log. Thought I could saw it as a hexagon, but a octagon or decagon would have been better... So I had too much loss on the outer sides. 
The turning went very well with the chainturners, and the clamping wasn't too bad either. But the wedges are a little too big in my opinion, in the end I was surprised how much 'waste' I have. And after edging too standard dimensions I'll have more waste. 
 It was the first time so with some practicing it could get better I think. 
Another issue I have is clamping the last wedge. I can't saw lower than 1,5''. Usually I end with a beam with the pith in center of the beam, in that way I don't have to lower al my clamps and don't screw up my bands. But with the RRQS method I can't saw the last 2 boards, and even if I could saw that low I can't clamp the odd shaped wedge.  How do you guys do that? Any advice is welcome!




quite some flints after edging I think




Too much bark skinned of




I sketched something on paper, lot of waste in comparison with sawing for grade

[customsawyer]

The fact that you can't saw down to the last isn't a deal breaker. On your last wedge once you have it opened up to a good face, turn that face down to the bed and saw down to it. If you have planned it right you can just leave a 6/4 board on the bottom.

[YellowHammer]

Since much of the best fleck is in the outermost edges of the log, it's crucial when trimming off the bark to keep the cant as large a diameter as possible and the facet cuts as shallow as possible.  The ideal octagon cut of a log with taper just grazes the bark on one end of the log to get a long facet.  Also, the deeper the cuts, the small the overall diameter, the steeper the facet angle and the more angle edge needs to be edged off the log later.  In reality, the main purpose of the faceting is to get good, straight and predictable reference edges so that future rotations can use them for setting the height and leveling the pith.  If a log is extremely straight, I will skip the faceting step, or just do one or two edges, the ones adjacent to the the splitting of the cant to get the half, which will allow me to use them as reference edges.

Time is an important pat of QSing, so reducing the amount of time prepping the log reduces the overall time of sawing it and getting to the next one. 

On the drawing, the drops are only to the pith, and don't go further down, so it's showing more waste than needed.  The drops should extend as many boards below the pith as above the pith generally to get the widest boards as possible and to reduce rotations.  It also gets more cuts with a flat facet face on one side.  Thats one reason it's important to mark the logs at first with a sharpie after a few cuts the actual apex of the wedge will have been removed and cant be used as a reference.  So it will reduce wedges and maximize wide boards through the best wood of the log.




 


Which brings also means that octagons don't necessary have to be truly symmetric or even round.  They can be any shape that puts parallel facets along the side of the cant and and maximizes the outside diameter to reduce waste.  

There is more waste QSawing, but at one of the Projects, we Doyle scaled a log before the process and met the scale in boards produced after sawing.  One nice thing about this technique is that you can target the best boards from the best facets and likewise the narrowest boards from the worst facets. 

As CustomSawyer saws, the last faces of the last wedge has a trick to to, as soon as you see you are in good, solid fleck, then rotate that face down and start sawing down to to, knowing the worst faces will be high, and the best faces will be as the drops continue, that way your last board should be a high fleck, wide but just thicker if you cant get down to 1".  Since that face is wide, and is flat to the deck, it's easy to clamp.

[Cruiser_79]

Since much of the best fleck is in the outermost edges of the log, it's crucial when trimming off the bark to keep the cant as large a diameter as possible and the facet cuts as shallow as possible.  The ideal octagon cut of a log with taper just grazes the bark on one end of the log to get a long facet.  Also, the deeper the cuts, the small the overall diameter, the steeper the facet angle and the more angle edge needs to be edged off the log later.  In reality, the main purpose of the faceting is to get good, straight and predictable reference edges so that future rotations can use them for setting the height and leveling the pith.  If a log is extremely straight, I will skip the faceting step, or just do one or two edges, the ones adjacent to the the splitting of the cant to get the half, which will allow me to use them as reference edges.

Time is an important pat of QSing, so reducing the amount of time prepping the log reduces the overall time of sawing it and getting to the next one.

On the drawing, the drops are only to the pith, and don't go further down, so it's showing more waste than needed.  The drops should extend as many boards below the pith as above the pith generally to get the widest boards as possible and to reduce rotations.  It also gets more cuts with a flat facet face on one side.  Thats one reason it's important to mark the logs at first with a sharpie after a few cuts the actual apex of the wedge will have been removed and cant be used as a reference.  So it will reduce wedges and maximize wide boards through the best wood of the log.

Which brings also means that octagons don't necessary have to be truly symmetric or even round.  They can be any shape that puts parallel facets along the side of the cant and and maximizes the outside diameter to reduce waste.  

There is more waste QSawing, but at one of the Projects, we Doyle scaled a log before the process and met the scale in boards produced after sawing.  One nice thing about this technique is that you can target the best boards from the best facets and likewise the narrowest boards from the worst facets.

As CustomSawyer saws, the last faces of the last wedge has a trick to to, as soon as you see you are in good, solid fleck, then rotate that face down and start sawing down to to, knowing the worst faces will be high, and the best faces will be as the drops continue, that way your last board should be a high fleck, wide but just thicker if you cant get down to 1".  Since that face is wide, and is flat to the deck, it's easy to clamp.

Thanks for the advice. My drawing isn't good indeed, I can get one or two boards more below the pith to have wider boards. But if I cut below the pith, all the following boards get narrower when I turn a few times more? Aren't you losing the wide boards really quick? 
Another question; when you start gun barreling, do you turn the log 180 degrees after each cut to make sure the opposite sides are exactly parallel?   At my saw I have to make sure that the facet cut isn't too wide because otherwise it won't fit between the clamps. Don't ask how I know that  :D
And do you usually cut it to 8 corners or 9,10 or more at bigger logs?

[YellowHammer]

Yes and no on the wide, most logs I saw have an off center pith so I will take wide cuts from very or any facet depending on quality. For example, if a lig has a way off center pith, when j spout the log, I may only QS the wider half and flatsaw if vertical grain saw the narrower half.  Of if I see I'm getting into knots or other defects, I'll rotate that over as soon as possible and if the next facet has clean boards, I'll rake as many of the, as wide as I can, knowing the narrower boards are lower quality anyway.  So I drive the pattern for high grade, wide boards or low grade narrow.

As far as gunbarreling, I'll usually cut 0 and 90, so I don't have to move the toe boards much between them.

I usually do 8 cuts.

[Cruiser_79]

Yes and no on the wide, most logs I saw have an off center pith so I will take wide cuts from very or any facet depending on quality. For example, if a lig has a way off center pith, when j spout the log, I may only QS the wider half and flatsaw if vertical grain saw the narrower half.  Of if I see I'm getting into knots or other defects, I'll rotate that over as soon as possible and if the next facet has clean boards, I'll rake as many of the, as wide as I can, knowing the narrower boards are lower quality anyway.  So I drive the pattern for high grade, wide boards or low grade narrow.

As far as gunbarreling, I'll usually cut 0 and 90, so I don't have to move the toe boards much between them.

I usually do 8 cuts.

That would take just more practicing I guess. Lot of logs over here are off center as well, due to the wind. Maybe it's better to focus on the bigger halve, and flat saw the small halve. The center of the small halve will give some quarter sawn boards as well. 
Next time I will take some more time to achieve parallel facet cuts, so I don't have tapered boards. 

[YellowHammer]

After a little practice, you'll be able to do this process in your sleep, with very little waste, and sawing can be done at almost flat sawn speeds.

However, tapered boards are a yield killer.  Despite the time lost, it's critical to get at least the first two 90° facets dead on, generally within a 1/4" but I like 1/8" if possible.  So a tape measure is critical at this point.  

Tapered boards should be avoided at all costs, because it means at least one facet is off axis, so edge drop at the edger will skyrocket. Also it will drop the intensity of the fleck.  So normally I will l carefully level the pith on one side, using a tape measure, and then since taper doesn't change much at 90°, I'll rotate quickly to the 90° side, and sometimes the toe boards won't hardly have to be adjusted.  Then, I'll tape measure and take that facet off.  I use a tape measure on both of these and get these dead on.  If I have a lumber crayon, I'll even mark these two edges because I know they are perfect, and everything else will be done using them as references. 

I am just trying to skim of just get under the bark on the narrowest end of the log, to maximize overall diameter.  If everything looks good with two sides cut at 90°, I'll reverse rotate back 90° to get the facet at 45°.  So now, I'll have 3 finished, nice and parallel facets. 

The reason I don't get the 45° facet second I that I like to use the two 90°'s as a reference.

At this point, the slowest part of the sawing process is over, because now I can put the tape measure down, and get to sawing by eyeball.  First thing is to rotate all the flat sides down to the bed and get the facets on the opposite sides. At that point, I'll also just skin the other facets I didn't get earlier, or go back and clean up whatever needs adjusting. 

Its important to look out for any taper on the facets because that is huge waste issue, and it also means the whole process will suffer later.  So what to do?  Just watch, and if a facet is tapered, fix it by eye.  This is where practice come in, at some point, you'll be able to only need to use the tape measure for the first two 90° cuts, and everything else can be done by eye.  At that point, if a facet is tapered, it needs to be fixed, immediately. 

There are lots of straight edges on a sawmill to use as a sighting gauges, whether it be the heights of the side supports, the drop of the drawback fingers, etc to help see if a facet is tapered.

You touched on it, this technique allows tremendous freedom when sawing, especially in an off center pith log.  Also, at all times, on pretty much any species, especially ones that have a tendency to develop bow when drying, I won't hesitate to switch between flatsawing and RRQSing in a heartbeat, on the same log.  

I even did it on some mineralized poplar the other day, and it makes a more striking look, in some instances.  I don't bother tape measure leveling the pith when doing "normal" logs, but won't hesitate to turn it into rift and quartersawn lumber instantly.  I'm not looking for ray fleck, so don't waste time with a tape measure, but am going for more of a vertical grain look.  This is what the results look like in this species:


 

[Thumping D]

°, I'll reverse rotate back 90° to get the facet at 45°.  So now, I'll have 3 finished, nice and parallel facets. 

The reason I don't get the 45° facet second I that I like to use the two 90°'s as a reference.

Thanks for including this part...  Not doing so caused me some consternation on a couple of logs.  I had been making it more complicated than necessary.

[moosehunter]

Did my biggest log to date with the RRQS. Started with a 14' x 34" red oak.
 

 
Got it bibbyed down and cut in half.

 
Pith was off center by quite a bit but still was able to center it and pith stayed consistent through the log.


 
Client was very happy as was I. Second log was 8' x 34". 



I just love that like MM, I just saws em & leaves em! I didn't have to stack this mess! 
That trailer load is maybe 60% qs? Give or take. Lot of flat sawn trying to get both logs down to 24" so I could saw through the center. With the pith off center I think I ended up at 23 wide and 27 high.
If you pros see something I could have done better please share, I am always willing and eager to learn.
mh

[YellowHammer]

Here is a video on a newer, abbreviated method of RRQS that I have been using for a while now, and at some point I started calling the the Jelly Roll method, because it eats logs fast and is a little sloppier and messier than the classic RRQS, and does miss occasionally.  However, it's very fast, and most times I can go through an entire log half without having to stop, which is extremely useful since I mostly saw alone and don't want to stack or even touch boards until I am done.

If you have watched my videos on the drag back medication, the "drag back shoes" you will now see why they are invaluable to my style of sawing.  Their ability to carry and hold a group of boards and allow me to drop them anywhere is highlighted in this video.  

I use this technique not only for quarter sawing, but also for vertical grain sawing, which I have started doing on pretty much every species I saw, as a way to combat log stress and board bow.  So I routinely use it on oaks, pecans, hickories, cherry, locust, sassafras, and even poplar.    

I also have done many, many logs without even taking the bark off, as gun barreling is not necessary, this method lends itself to that, as well as splitting the pith by eye without using a tape measure.  I can make any adjustments with the toeboards, and just start sawing.  It also lends itself to smaller logs, and I have vertical grain sawn some that weren't much bigger than a jelly roll.

Jelly Roll Quartersawing, (#1 Way, Better Than RRQS) - YouTube

[Andries]

"Jelly Roll B-train.''
:D :D :D :D
Nice video and great milling results. 
.
PS; that train was loud, but in previous drone aerial shots, why aren't there aren't any railroads close by ?   ;)

[Southside]

When you go to enter into a new beginning Auto down point on a new face rather than taking your hand off the left joystick and hitting the Esc button then the Auto down, set the head where you want it, hit the very top, left, button on the left joystick twice.  The first push takes you out of Auto down and goes into manual mode, the second push puts you back into Auto down, and resets the starting drop point to where the head is.  

Chases are won in the corners, not the, flat, straight runs.   ;D

[Walnut Beast]

Great video 👍

[customsawyer]

Great video. Nicely done as always. This videoing reminds me of shrimping with Forest Gump. It's tough.

[YellowHammer]

"Jelly Roll B-train.''
:D :D :D :D
Nice video and great milling results.
.
PS; that train was loud, but in previous drone aerial shots, why aren't there aren't any railroads close by ?   ;)

Yeah, I don't know, it was like the train was right next to me, but all I "saw" (pun intended) was the wood coming by.  Toot Toot!!
  

When you go to enter into a new beginning Auto down point on a new face rather than taking your hand off the left joystick and hitting the Esc button then the Auto down, set the head where you want it, hit the very top, left, button on the left joystick twice.  

I agree, I generally like the joystick reset button, but for this video I wanted to go retro and do as much as possible off the screen instead of the joystick.  Also, I since I was talking and distracted, I didn't want to get into the wrong mode and screw up the cuts on the video, and I have a tendency to not look at the display and get in the wrong mode.  I've done it more than once.  Get distracted, make a mistake.    
In the case of a one take video, I opted for the slower, more sure approach.

[Old Greenhorn]

Beautiful video and beautiful technique easy to understand. Doing it remains a challenge. ;D Glad I am running a 50, those joy sticks would take me a long time to learn, especially since the 50 has the head on the right and the bed on the left. Oh boy would I be messed up.

Your "jelly Roll' name brought an old song to mind, but the original was a bit risque' for this place, so here is a cleaned up version by Ol' Sachmo that was suitable for general release. You can search the title to find the original lyrics.

 Thanks for learning us up!

I Ain't Gonna Give Nobody None of My Jelly Roll - YouTube

[Sixacresand]

Robert, YH
Good info in the Jelly Roll technique.  Hughes net has increase my data cap, so I can watch more milling videos, now. 

I wish you would make a short video of how you utilize the roller bed set up perpendicular to your mill.  I have one but don't know where the best place to use it. 

[Resonator]

Great video! Easy to understand RRQS steps, and liked the editing with the Picture-in-picture YellowHammer-camera. 
(And the lumber looked beautiful too.) ;D

[doc henderson]

that is a great technique, no muss no fuss.  do you have a technique for those of us trying to watch our figure?    (jelly roll) 8) your boards had great figure!

[YellowHammer]

Robert, YH
Good info in the Jelly Roll technique.  Hughes net has increase my data cap, so I can watch more milling videos, now.

I wish you would make a short video of how you utilize the roller bed set up perpendicular to your mill.  I have one but don't know where the best place to use it.

Sure, sounds like a useful video.  Basically, I use three tables that over the years I settled to.  A non roller table for the mill outfeed, (tried a roller table and did not like it) with only one roller on the end, and the perpendicular full roller table with a down slope to automatically dump stuff into the loader.  Then I have the non roller steel table as a staging table.  Plus the Yellowhammer dragback shoes.  

Thanks all for the compliments on the video editing, I'm not a Spielberg, that's for sure.  The editing takes quite a bit of time, and the camera work does as well.  Sawing is easy....

I made the log green so it would be appetizing.  I probably should have made it strawberry red.  

[forcemac]

I love your quarter sawing vids.  Makes me yearn for proper band mill.  I dream about quitting my day job and just saw for the joy of it.  

Its special to see you share your talent, enjoyment and success.  Keep them coming.