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Illegal Logging

Started by Walnut Beast, December 31, 2020, 01:18:59 AM

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Walnut Beast

Guardians of the Amazon. It's a nasty deadly situation there. ABC Nightline had a piece on the situation. Very interesting. Locally last year several news stations  had a big piece on the news of people stealing Walnut trees on State land and private

SwampDonkey

One of the reasons we have wood tracking legislation up here. You could go to your woodlot 30 miles from here and see that it was harvested with no authorization. There is a good chance the trucker of that wood gave his scale slips to the local marketing board and the pay went out of their office to the 'producer'. The producer, is the guy that cut it, not necessarily the owner or authorized by the owner. Every trucker of wood must keep a book of load slips of his wood trucking, I do believe the marketing boards have a copy of the scale slips and them books get tuned in to the local board office. You gotta do what it takes sometimes to nip it in the bud. The attitude by the courts can't simply be "oh it's just wood", then turn around and send some one to prison for taking $50. ::) It's still difficult to prosecute, you have to prove intent and firstly you have to prove the wood or ground it came from is your property. A costly battle that the thieves know about.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Southside

Mid '90s a bunch of Birdseye maple went missing off the stump in our area. It was investigated but nothing ever came out of it. 

A couple of years later I was throwing some wood into the stove that had come from a local firewood peddler, I use that label intentionally as this guy was always in some sort of trouble, when low and behold I realized that I was burning 16" Birdseye Maple firewood. 

No way to prove anything but it sure did make me wonder how it all went down. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
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Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
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moodnacreek

If you saw some of the timber growing [and dying] here on state land you might question your honesty.

SwampDonkey

That is only the natural process (or dynamics) of a forest. It in no way justifies theft. Up north there are millions of acres of woodland left to their own devices, too far from market. Been falling down, burning, bug eaten and growing back for thousands of years.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I was on the Board of Directors of the PA Forestry Assn. back in the late '70s.  I remember the Game Commission and the DER heads were talking about a guy that they knew was taking trees off the state lands.  His MO was to cut trees right along the road, then put them on the his truck.  They could never catch him, and I doubt they did.

I was called into one case where they caught the guy that illegally cut timber.  He cut the adjoining property and the thought was that he just cut my client's timber.  I did the timber cruise and appraisal of the damages.  It turns out that the adjoining landowner didn't know where his property lines were at.  He told the logger he owned to the top of the mountain, which he didn't.  He got his info from the tax office maps, which aren't necessarily accurate.  The logger isn't always at fault.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

woodroe

I caught a abutting landowner's brother about to cut a stand of Pine that belongs to me.
Happen to go out on the back 20 one day and saw where someone had flagged a diagonal line
through the back of the property.
I had met this owner out there a couple years earlier wandering around and showed him where the line was.
Anyhow, after I removed the misplaced flagging I caught up with the brother getting close to the line
and showed him where the line was. Pointed to a Pine tree with scar and paint on it and both directions the line ran.
Son of a gun cut that pine with the blaze on it !
Skidding firewood with a kubota L3300.

moodnacreek

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 31, 2020, 10:21:08 AM
That is only the natural process (or dynamics) of a forest. It in no way justifies theft. Up north there are millions of acres of woodland left to their own devices, too far from market. Been falling down, burning, bug eaten and growing back for thousands of years.
S.D. you are correct and I agree with you. But compared to true private property , in my mind it would be a lesser offence.

maple flats

Back in the mid 80's I had a well marked property line based on a survey from 4-6 years earlier. The adjoining land owner then came in, about 40' onto my land and marked his own line for about 400', until his back line turned 90 degrees. I argued the point so he brought his lawyer out into the woods. He said my survey was in error, However he had no survey. Also, my deed described that line as having an old barbed wire fence running in it. There were wires there in some of the older trees and no sign of wire where he tried to mark his line.
The issue was that he had loggers coming in, and that 40' x 400' area had several cherries DBH up to 36" and most straight and some mature hemlock DBH 32-45". His land past the actual line in that portion of his land had been an open field in the 50's, thus no timber value at all. In total he did have lots of timber in other parts of his 37 acres, but little or no cherry. He did have 3-4 nice swamp white oak. I don't know what it graded when cut, being in quite wet growing conditions. He also had about 3 acres of real large hemlock, again no idea if it had shake or not. The hemlock I have on my side, so far I only cut one with shake, the rest were good. They were used among other uses to build my sugarhouse in 2003-04. Most of the logging on his side only yielded silver maples and a few red maples.
Back to the story, I did end up preventing him from cutting my trees and he ended up getting a survey. Both survey lines were parallel and just a few inches apart, I gained some land, but I continue to honor my original line. He has since logged it again, then immediately sold it. The new owner bought it mainly for hunting. With all of the new brush growth it is good for deer, just watch out for the huge ruts from the skidder.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: moodnacreek on December 31, 2020, 01:17:37 PM
S.D. you are correct and I agree with you. But compared to true private property , in my mind it would be a lesser offence.
I doubt you would want to deal with DNR over theft charges, they have much deeper pockets than I do as a woodlot owner. :D They take wood theft off public land very seriously. Their wood is also tracked and every load will have a orange dot on the but end of a log behind the cab. Or at least that was the practice awhile back unless that changed. The truckers have their load slips to. You're steeling from the public and the mill who has the license to cut and manage that timber you stole. Not even allowed to cut firewood from a pile too small to make a load and left along the road. Once you allow it, it opens up an unmanageable situation where you don't know if it was waste wood or unauthorized tree cutting. I suppose we could pay more taxes to hire more forest managers. I think I'm paying enough taxes now. I know the mills aren't going to pay higher stumpage for it. The government is in the hole every year on forest management, what does that tell ya?  :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 31, 2020, 11:46:21 AMIt turns out that the adjoining landowner didn't know where his property lines were at.  He told the logger he owned to the top of the mountain, which he didn't.  He got his info from the tax office maps, which aren't necessarily accurate.  The logger isn't always at fault.
Actually, they usually make a disclaimer on those maps saying they are not responsible for their accuracy. That actually won't get a logger off the hook. That is why loggers here will often be sure there is a legal land survey marking the lot. I've seen a lot of loggers pay for that survey to access the timber. Cost of doing business. Last time I hired a survey, it was on 450 acres and was around $750 for the whole deal. One side we didn't need to survey, it was along the international boundary line. It was all blazed and I came behind with paint.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mike_belben

Did you hire it in 1873 or something?


 i got quoted $1200 on a 5 acre survey and ive got 3 of the 4 corners found, a straight lined rectangle.  
Praise The Lord

Walnut Beast

You definitely got to watch your property lines

Walnut Beast

Pretty easy surveying now. Then go put some flags in

Walnut Beast

450 bucks on two three acre parcels that's from scratch where I wanted it

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Walnut Beast on December 31, 2020, 10:06:33 PM
450 bucks on two three acre parcels that's from scratch where I wanted it
😂 That was 450 each. Surveyed and the Plat

SwampDonkey

Quote from: mike_belben on December 31, 2020, 09:53:45 PM
Did you hire it in 1873 or something?


i got quoted $1200 on a 5 acre survey and ive got 3 of the 4 corners found, a straight lined rectangle.  
On a property 10 acres or less, it is considered residential up here and that would cost about the same as that 450 acres at the time. I know because I also had the house lot with 4 acres surveyed out of the old farm. The mill here hires a surveyor, the one I used,  to do their lines all year long, they sure ain't paying those dollars. Nice house and a steady job, doubt he's complaining. :D :D

Heck we started on that line around 8:00 am in April, no leaves, and that line was all marked out by noon. GPS survey, set a station up out in the big 160 acre field. Was nothing to it. No dilly dally and jaw wagging, get'r done. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

woodroe

Quote from: Walnut Beast on December 31, 2020, 10:01:56 PM
You definitely got to watch your property lines
Yup, and keeping em flagged if they aren't blazed well. 

Skidding firewood with a kubota L3300.

moodnacreek

Where possible pound those old truck axels in the corners, metal detectors really scream them out.

Ron Wenrich

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 31, 2020, 05:13:25 PM
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 31, 2020, 11:46:21 AMActually, they usually make a disclaimer on those maps saying they are not responsible for their accuracy. That actually won't get a logger off the hook. That is why loggers here will often be sure there is a legal land survey marking the lot. I've seen a lot of loggers pay for that survey to access the timber. Cost of doing business. Last time I hired a survey, it was on 450 acres and was around $750 for the whole deal. One side we didn't need to survey, it was along the international boundary line. It was all blazed and I came behind with paint.
There was no mention that it was intended to be accurate, and the county board wasn't called into question.  
When I set up timber sales, either as an agent for a buyer or a seller, I searched the deed.  In addition, I looked at all the adjoining landowner deeds.  If the landowner told me where the property lines were, I still searched the deed.  I actually took some back to warrant deeds and ran them.  I have found discrepancies between recorded deeds.  Some deeds actually overlapped.  The difficult ones is where you had to get a surveyor involved.

In the woods, I would locate all the corners I could find.  I found many areas that were messed up by surveyors.  I often found the original corners.  Some surveyors wouldn't tie in to those corners, and put a corner somewhere else.  I had one surveyor tell me that his survey was based on the original metes and bounds of a warrant deed.  The 1790 one was run with a chain, while the new one was run with a laser.  Although the new one was accurate by the deed, it was not accurate what was on the ground.

I had one sale where the logger called me up and told me the neighbor had come over with a gun (he was hunting ground hogs), and he said they cut over the line.  I met with the neighbor and showed him where the corner was located and that we were in bounds.  He said he didn't know it was there.  Dually impressed, he had me mark his timber and sell it.  

After that point, we often sent adjoining neighbors of our pending timber sale of marked timber.  We noted that care was taken in finding the corners and laying out the sale.  We asked them to inspect our lines and markings and if there were any discrepancies to contact us.  Never had any problems.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

We do our best with what we have to go on. :)

Seen land marked and not straight lines, followed other features such as field edges or streams at the time. Some may have been subdivided from a larger parcel, following an old road. Everyone tends to assume the lines have to be dead straight. :)

Cousin was cutting wood this fall. The Royalton Road cuts a small parcel off his woodlot, so there is an "island" of land between the road and the brook. A neighbor comes along (doesn't own land in the area) and asked if he's cutting over the line. Nope I said, he owns to the brook. And across the road on the main block, the line continues along the brook to the south line, where it becomes a woods road. Been that way since his great grandfather. The land was only granted a generation before. It had a woman landowner on the grant, extremely rare in days I was always told women never owned land. I've assumed she was an only heir or husband died. :)
That same ground he was cutting, his father plowed for his grandfather when they lived up there many moons ago. You can tell the ground was farmed. The front of mine was too. The soil is like a garden.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

maple flats

I've found that survey costs will vary considerably based on how complicated the past history is. Back about 1985 I bought a piece of land at a tax sale for $1500. It included about 30 acres. Since it only came with a tax deed, I tried to get it surveyed. 4 surveyors declined saying it had been thru a very long period of tax sales, repossessions and hand shake deals going back as far as 1862. An old now defunct single track railroad cut thru the property, along with one winding city street.
I started to research The deeds. It took me about 200 hrs over a 3 yr period before I got it figured out. Before I did that I had hired a title company to search it, a few weeks later, they said they were at a dead end. I owed them $500 for what they had. My roughly 200 hrs was after that. I used what they had and went from there. Before I got it all figured out I also ran into a road block. Fortunately I had a friend who worked for a title company. I told her about my problem and she said she would keep an eye open. As it turned out she had occasion to search one of the lines of an adjoining property. When doing that she found the missing link. Then with all of the old deeds  figured out (there were over 25 deeds) for some parts, none included the entire 30 acres.
I then took that info to a surveyor who then did a survey for $400. In the end I cut about 40 cords of ash, red maple and cherry, none of which was good for saw logs, just firewood. I then sold the parcel for $16,000 with a warranty deed, I had paid $1960 in taxes during my ownership in 9 years. I had originally thought I might split it into 4 building lots, 2 on that city street, and 2 down a dead end road on the opposite end of the property, which I already owned prior to this land. I had a perk test done and it would have required raised bed septic fields. That would make this rather marginal land not very saleable as 4 lots, thus we sold it all to one neighboring owner.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

mike_belben

You made a fair return on it id say.  Sixteen grand was a pickup truck back then and itd have took a lot more than 200hrs to pay off.  50 to 70Gs now for the rollup windows right?  :D
Praise The Lord

Tom King

I like state roads as property lines.

moodnacreek

Quote from: Tom King on January 07, 2021, 11:05:54 AM
I like state roads as property lines.
That brings a lot of trash [both kinds] and every time they think it needs to be updated they take more land. I have been cheated bad by the states contractors who have protection from the capital. The state D.O.T. does not know or care where the lines are. They will dump dead deer here in the summertime. Then we have the power line maintenance , leave the branches where they fall. I better stop.

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