I didn't think to take pics at the time. ::)
I have a Grizzley 20" spiral head and changed the cutter inserts for the first time this weekend.
The job went pretty smooth. After removing the dust hood and head cover, the cutter head was easily accessable. The first thing to do was a good cleaning to remove pitch and build up. I felt like a dental hygenist picking around all those inserts. But I wised up pretty quick and sprayed the whole cutterhead with a pitch solvent and scrubbed with a brass brush. Then shot it with the air compressor to clean away the gunk.
At first I wondered how I would keep track of which way to turn them and which ones had already been turned. But the insert has a little engraving on one corner so that helped. And I made the decision to turn it clockwise a quarter turn. However, the insert screws were torked on there pretty tight. There was one or two on each row that would not give in to my attempts at loosening them and the screw head stripped out. ::) Once I popped each screw loose on an entire row with the hand tool, I went back with a cordless drill and backed out the screw just enough to raise the insert to turn it, then screwed it back down. This idea came only after I dropped the first couple of screws down into the planer bed. ::) After they were all turned and tightened I followed with the hand tool to tighten as best as I could.
All in all it was easy. Next time I will have a couple of back up torx wrenches. The one I had only lasted through the first 75 screws. It was an el cheapo Chinese make from the auto store. Not counting the time it took me to go to the store for another wrench, I spent 70 minutes doing the whole job. I guess a call to Grizzley for a few replacement screws would be a good idea too.
Have you given it a test drive, yet? I need to turn my inserts soon, so I want to learn from your experience.
I have found that using "anti-seeze" on the screws/bolts in those applications pay a significant dividend in saved time and frustrations in the future. In particular, changing the knives on my shavings machine went from a nightmare to a mildly discomforting dream. ;D
Mark
I went through a half dozen torx heads the first time I did mine. Let me know if you find a good quality one that holds up.
Norm,
The screws were so tight that having the wrench angle off just a little bit from perfectly seated resulted in a stripped screw head. But you already know that. :D
The wrench set I had were all connected together and swiveled out from the handle. This gave me a good hand hold on the wrench to really put some torque on the screw and control the wrench. I think an individual loose wrench would be impossible. Now that I'm thinking about it, a torx bit in a ratchet might give pretty good control and be cost effective, too.
WDH,
Yes, I ran a big pile of cypress through it over the weekend. I forgot how quiet this machine can be. ;D Part of the job of changing the inserts around was cleaning the bed rollers of pitch and build up. I didn't have any infeed hangups this weekend either. ;)
QuoteI have found that using "anti-seeze" on the screws/bolts in those applications pay a significant dividend in saved time and frustrations in the future
ellmoe,
Where were you with that suggestion
before I unscrewed a hundered of those blasted screws?!? :D We'll see if I can remember that for next time.
Chris, the book says to take the insert out and thoroughly clean out the slot that the insert fits into. Sound like you did not completely remove the insert, so that is why I asked. So, clean the head thoroughly before removing torx bolts. Spray on anti-seeze. Loosen bolt and turn 90 degrees to new face. Re-tighten bolt.
Book? There's a book???
Do you guys have an estimate of how many board feet before turning the inserts? Is there any clues as to when to turn?
Larry,
I have a home hobby shop so I do not keep notes on how many BF run through the planer. But, I've had it for several years and have run at least 3,000 -4,000 of rough sawn material through it. Linear feet might be a better measure of cutter life if that's possible. Several passes are needed from the rough board.
The cut quality was still very good with little or no grain tearout. Even when running wood against the grain or curly figure, the cut quality was still good. The noise is the first thing that tipped me off. While planing with sharp cutters, there is barly any cutter head noise. Just the hum of the motor. But lately I had noticed the need to wear hearing protection.
The dust extraction was another thing. My dust collector is undersized for this planer's capacity and I noticed the chips were beginning to clog the dust shoot. With the dull cutter, the chips seem to bond together looking like a birdnest. The sharp cutter has uniform loose chips. This is just an observation from emptying the dust collector and something else might be contributing to this situation.
I have a 26" head and it takes 3 to 4 hours to rotate knives. I take a 1/4" wrench and tape it to the torx . I take a hammer and tap the top of the torx as I apply rotational torque with the wrench. One torx will last a long time using this method. Once loose, I take a drill with the torx and spin all the screws out in 3 rows. Keep doing 3 rows until all screws are out. I place a sheet of cardboard under the head to catch any screws and knives that fall.
I clean all pockets to make sure there is no buildup. I then take each knive and scrape any build up underneath each edge. It is important to make sure there is no material in the pocket or under the knife.
When everything is clean, I replace the knives using the little mark on the knife as a guide as to which way it should be. Then put the screws in using a drill with a torgue setting that will only let you tighten so much.
Then plane some lumber making sure there are no "wild" teeth. If all is well, then the off bearer must check the lumber for several 1000' to make sure no knives came loose.
We run 50,000 to 100,000 feet before rotating knives. Depends on how much dirt was on the boards.
Funny I noticed a few knicks in mine and went to do a rotation today but changed my mind. The machine is cutting pretty smooth otherwise so I just changed the rows the knicked cutters were in but did not rotate them. Due to the helical shape only 3 of the 5 in the row were knicked and I liken this move to being similar to sliding a conventional planer knive over a whistle after being knicked.
Good tips cedar! Metalspinniner, what anti pitch solvent are you using? We use white pine almost exclusively in my shop and it has built up pretty good as you can imagine .
Dave
I have probably run 5000 feet through my 15". It is still planing good, just not as slick as new. I hate to turn the inserts until they are ready because they are expensive to replace. Still, a whole lot better than knives by a long, long, shot. I will never get close to 50,000 feet though because the 3 HP motor is the bottleneck if the inserts get a little dull.
In building furniture, I like the planed surface of the wood baby-bottom smooth. That cuts down on the interminable hours of sanding, sanding, and more sanding. That was hard to do with a "knife planer" but it is achievable easily with a spiral head with carbide inserts.
The "book" I was referring too was the owner's manual, but maybe I read that somewhere else, like on a Forum :).
Having 15 horses turning the belts puts a lot of power to the knives. We can easily put a 1000' per hour through the machine and take 1/8" off at a time. When we were hogging cull boards for shavings we were takint 1/4 to 5/16" off at a time. It would test the suck system. With the new shaving machine dedicated to shaving cull boards, the planer is back to just surfacing lumber. The shaving machine will shave about 15,000 feet into shavings before rotating knives. It will eat 4 to 5 board feet per minute. It has 50 horses on it.
i got the torx in my rachet, never broke one or stripped any screw heads, i jus tloosen enough to turn lift up on the insert and blast aliile air to clean the seat and retighten. when you think your inserts are getting dull, run another 10-15thousand more bf then change ;D
I have to wonder how much pitch build up actually mimics dulling? :P Has anyone tried just cleaning the cutters before changing them?
I bought the 15" planer with the Byrd head a little over six years ago. I got frustrated with the 3 horsepower motor most quick. It now has a US made 5 horsepower. When I made that change I also put on new pulleys/belts. Of course I than had to fabricate a new belt guard. Although it's a great machine now, it would have been a whole lot easier (and cheaper) if I had made the right choice up front.
With the improvements, its set at high speed at all times and has no problem making 1/8" deep cuts (maximum depth). I keep wondering when I need to turn the inserts which prompted my question. No idea how many feet have been through it, but a couple of months ago I ran 2,000 foot of erc with no problem.
Think I'll go by red oaks recommendation and try for another 10-15 thousand bf.
The 3 horsepower motor is ok if are planing a couple of hundred feet or less at a time, or if you are planing for an individual furniture project. Taking 1/16th off at a pass requires 4 or 5 passes to get a 3/4" finished board. It is the number of passes that takes all the time. Production planing is not an option.
I have the same Grizzly 20" spiral. Last time I rotated/changed the blades it was with my Milwaukee drill. Way faster than by hand. Unfortunately 18v has a bit too much power and a snapped a couple. After that I did the final tightening by hand.
i changed out a 3 blade on a grizzly 20 in last summer.. not a fan of that design
not shure where you people are buying inserts for the spiral heads, but i hope you know that inserts are universal, and their is a huge assortment of them. their is some nice ones of the triangle and square, the ones you really want are the chip breaker,( or micro toothed), or coated ones. the chip breakers cut a smaller chunk out, and even with metal, if you go hoggin', its a little more forgiving on the surface finish
I bought and really like the *Made in USA* Bondhus T-handle Torx wrenches for working on my saws. You need a lot of torque to tighten down the torx bolts on the clearing saw front ends with the angle gear. Also tightening bolts on the shaft or clutch side of the power unit. These are stronger tools than supplied ones from the saw manufacturers. I think they are awesome. ;) No affiliation with Bondhus, just impressed with the quality. ;D
is there a difference between helical and spiral?
Quote from: doc henderson on December 15, 2021, 06:38:00 PM
is there a difference between helical and spiral?
Same as the difference between round and spherical. :D Sorry Doc, couldn't help myself.
NO, no difference.
I just rotated my cutters for the first time yesterday. I'll have to redo it all. When the instructions tell you to be sure and clean away any dust or sap you should follow them. :-[
I figured but same company (Grizzly) has "both" with diff. max. depth of cut and HP. on planers.
Well, geometrically they are the same, but when the marketing guys get involved all bets are off. ;D
Grizzly used to sell spiral cutterhead planers that had long blades that wrapped around the head. These were totally different than the helical heads. It seems now that they only sell the helical heads with the carbide inserts and that they use the terms spiral and helical interchangeably.
Hmmm..
Maybe this is just some old marketing in my head??
But I thought the difference between the two insert heads was that one had the cutting edges "inline" and the other was "skewed" in some manor?
Quote from: doc henderson on December 15, 2021, 06:38:00 PM
is there a difference between helical and spiral?
Yes, I think so. In the spiral head the inserts are at 90 degrees to the feed direction. In the helical head the inserts are at a slight angle to the feed direction. The cut is a shearing cut which is more efficient and smoother according to the people who sell them.
I cannot see any difference between how the heads cut in real life. When Grizzly got the spiral head cloned in China the inserts were all 90 degrees to the feed. Now they offer both styles. I've had two Byrd Shelix heads for 20 years now and can see no difference in cuts between my heads and Hermance or Grizzly.
Bryd and Hermance are both made in the USA!!!
I ordered a byrd head for my jointer about 6 weeks ago from Holbren. Of course they took my money, but have no idea when my helical head will ship. I guess I was naive when I ordered it, but their site said it would typically ship in 5 days. They need to change their site.
Had all sorts of trouble the first time I tried to rotate about 15 yrs ago.
the T handle wrench that came with the machine (Bridgewood) lasted about 25 cutters and twisted and broke.
couldnt get a bunch out, so stupidly just broke the carbides with a punch the removed the screws.
Big mistake as I deformed some of the seats.
Took a lot of work to correct this.
called Byrd and the fellow told me to seat to up to 55 inch pounds.
I now run in very lightly with a cordless set on the lowest torque setting and then torque according to fellows specs.
the newest inserts I bought are numbered for turning.
I think mine has 128 of these buggers.
My belief is as stated above that spiral is 90 degrees and helical at a slight angle.
Rotating cutters is a methodical process.
I take all the cutters off and put them and the screws into a solvent bath. Then I spray WD40 on the head, get a wire wheel in a drill and clean all the sap and gum off the head, the seats, everything. WD40 seems to cut the crud pretty easy.
Then I take a pice of sandpaper, lay it on the bed abrasive side up and get a cutter and put the back on the sandpaper and go scrub it around a couple quick swipes and the solvent softened sap wipes right off. Then take a screw and put that cutter back on the head, and snug up the bolt.
Then repeat a few hundred times.
When they are all in, then use a dedicated T handle torque wrench and set them. I use a 50 inch-'ipound dedicated T handled torque wrench. Go row by row and it goes easy.
Then run some wood though the planer and look for any high or low teeth, mark the position on the bed with a pencil, open the cover and adjust that cutter.
It's pretty easy but it takes a little time.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 16, 2021, 04:11:50 PM
I ordered a byrd head for my jointer about 6 weeks ago from Holbren. Of course they took my money, but have no idea when my helical head will ship. I guess I was naive when I ordered it, but their site said it would typically ship in 5 days. They need to change their site.
Just to play devils advocate, and learn something->why use helical?
I've had my 8" jointer for over 35 years and just changed conventional blade set a couple years back for the first time. I compared buying a new set of blades to sharpening the old set along with my conventional planer blades and bought an ebay set, made in USA, was cheaper than sharpening them.
I guess what I don't understand is at what point in cost does a helical type cutterhead machine make sense in a solo home shop senario?
My 20" Taiwan planer uses regular blades too and just ran several MBF of pine 2x6's through it, still sharp enough for framing lbr., maybe not for the best cabinet woods I'd change them out.
Interestingly, I started this thread over 10 years ago with the first rotation of the inserts. Today, I am still on the third edge. So, every 5-6 years I am rotating the inserts. Not bad mileage.
On the other hand, I have a 6" jointer with straight knives and I can't ever seem to keep an edge sharp for more than just a few months.
You get less tear out in the funky grain areas, so smoother finish. I've only just run the straight blades, all my machine tools are bought on budget, no fancy high priced machines. But I don't skimp on hand tools. ;D It would be different if I was building to sell, I ain't. What I make is mine. ;)
I clean my cutterhead occasionally, just use some ammonia detergent in a spray bottle, after putting cardboard on the table. Then take a tooth brush after the detergent soaks up the pitch. After using the brush to scrub all the teeth, Then use plain water in a spray bottle to remove all the ammonia detergent. Then use the air compressor to spray off the water, finally turn on the machine to throw off all the water in the cracks. Takes a while, but the machine works better with clean cutters. I have the Grizzly polar bear 15".
Quote from: metalspinner on December 18, 2021, 11:30:47 PM
Interestingly, I started this thread over 10 years ago with the first rotation of the inserts. Today, I am still on the third edge. So, every 5-6 years I am rotating the inserts. Not bad mileage.
On the other hand, I have a 6" jointer with straight knives and I can't ever seem to keep an edge sharp for more than just a few months.
Note my comment that my Sprunger 8" jointer has only had one blade replacement, zero times that I sharpened either set off the machine, maybe a stone job only. Believe me when I say it's had lots of wood run over it!
I've never sharpened my Delta jointer in 30 years. :D