Need help with new construction heating alternatives-in favor of wood furnace

[Piston]

I'm in the very beginning stages of planning a new home.  The house will be built in Central NH so of course winters can be cold and long.  I've always been very intrigued by wood furnaces in general, whether indoor or outdoor, and have always dreamed of having one.  I like burning wood in the woodstove and we usually heat with the woodstove in the winter when I'm home. 
I have been thinking about what I want to do for heat for the new house.  We are planning on building an approximately 2,000sq ft house, with an open floor plan.  I would really like to heat it with wood, but there is one problem.  The problem is, because of my job, I am not home all the time.  Sometimes I am away for up to 3 weeks at a time, but then may be home for a month or more.  While I'm home, I would certainly tend to the wood furnace keeping it full and happily heating my house with the firewood on my property. 

The issue comes with while I'm away.  I don't want to make my wife go outside and feed the OWB in freezing cold conditions and blowing winds.  Even if I did, I don't think she would be too happy about it  :D
So what are some of my options? 
I was thinking of an OWB in an enclosed shed or something that is out of the weather, but also having an independent oil or propane furnace in the house, so when I'm away, the furnace would run and keep the house warm and my wife happy, but when I'm home, I could shut it down and use the OWB and keep the house warm for free.  The problem here of course, is it would theoretically take me twice as many years to make my money back on my investment, since I would only be using the OWB or IWB for half the amount of time than if I was home all the time. 
I don't really like the option of the dual fuel OWB, the reason is because I have read so many threads about problems with them, and I would hate for me to be away and have a problem with the furnace, and have my wife be out of heat.  If I had the separate oil or propane furnace, and the OWB, it would be good for redundancy.

I do think that most of the time my wife would fill the OWB if I made it easy, which of course I would, buy stacking dry wood nearby under cover and not putting the OWB 300' away through the woods or something  :D
However, for those times when it is just nasty rain, or we are away, or she just doesn't wanna go outside to fill the furnace because she is watching the baby or something (Oh ya, good news guys, my wife is pregnant...FINALLY  8))

So, do you guys have any ideas or recommendations that would help me out?  I know there is a lot of experience with OWB on here.  I've read A LOT about the OWB and less about indoor wood boilers, and I've read about gasification vs. non gasification, so I'm familiar with them in theory, but I don't have any actual experience. 

When it all comes down to it, my ultimate goal is to heat my house for as little as possible.  However, I'm realistic in that I know there will be times when I'm away, and my wife is either away visiting her parents or something, or just doesn't want to go outside in the storm to fill the furnace, or doesn't want to deal with the mess.  So, what do you think would be good for me?  I'm worried the best course of action would be to just invest in an efficient propane or oil furnace, but then I still need to buy the fuel  ???

I have a long time to think about this and make a decision, but I figured I better start earlier rather than later.   

[AsaG]

Don't know squat about winter where you are but up here, near the Canadian border in NW Minnesota, radiant heat is about the only way to be truly comfortable when the temps drop.  We have a 4-ton geothermal HP with sufficient vertical loop capacity to maintain 50°F entering water temperature and it does a fine job keeping the house 70°F when it's well below zero but radiant heat at the same thermostat setting feels MUCH warmer and more comfortable.  Then there is the endless supply of domestic hot water!  8)  What you are asking about is something that's been on my mind for some time.  Here's what I'm gonna do...

A 5 ton geothermal water to water HP tied into my hydronic system.  A PLC here, a thermostat there and a few 1" zone valves and presto, fully automatic unattended operation.  When not fired, my OWB will function as a buffer tank and be kept at around 140°.  No more cold starts at any point in the season since I can bring it within 45° full operating temperature without ever lighting a match.  During down-time, we will still have radiant heat and the currently installed water to air HP will take up any slack in the event the temps go below -20.  This would work with an oil or propane boiler/furnace but in my case, with our current power rates at $0.093/KwH, $3.89 buys me around 542K btu with a 3.8 HP COP.   Although considerably less expensive up front, the same $3.89 gallon of #2 buys me around 111K btu assuming an 80% efficient boiler.  Once complete, I'd have to be out of power, out of fuel for the generator, out of wood and out of luck for weeks before I have an OWBcicle.  It's not going to be cheap but hey, they don't call me Mr. Overkill for nothing.

Oh, Sweetie Pie wants nothing to do with the OWB.  She takes great pride in reminding me every 30-45 seconds that "my little barn" need to be fed.  It's everything I can do to keep a straight face.   :D

Good luck with your new home and congrats on your new addition to your family!

[Handy Andy]

  Can you build a walk-out basement?  If you could, it would be easy to get your wood inside the basement, and a woodstove would be a reasonable way to heat the house.  Even works well when the power is out.  Maybe your wife wouldn't object to filling the stove when you are away.  Especially if you have a stove that is easy to operate like my Drolet Austral.  Or you could put in a wood furnace.  Uses electricity to distribute the heat, and you can't burn it hot when power is out, but you can keep a small fire going then. My wife likes the feel of wood heat.  More comfortable than heating with gas. Congrats on the baby.  Hope you have time to spend with the child as he or she is growing up.

[Roger2561]

Welcome to the site, Piston.  You state you're moving to central NH.  Being a native of NH, I live in a small town on near the Connecticut River, and the state of NH requires that no OWB be a non-gassifier, they must be gassifiers.  So, you're limited in that regard.

My set up is such:  OWB into house through oil furnace (I had it installed this way in the event the fire is lost in the OWB the oil furnace will automatically take over) and out to the 3 separate baseboard zones.  I like having the boiler outdoors for a couple of reasons.  One, the mess is not inside; two, the danger of a chimney fire in the house is non-existant; three, cuts down on handling the fire wood too many times.  I have the Central Boiler E-Classic 1400 and I love it.  It's a joy to come home from work or awaken in the morning to nice warm house and not hear the oil furnace running. 

To answer your concerns regarding being gone for weeks at a time, you'll have to weigh the pro's and con's of whatever you decide.  There are ways to use an OWB without the risk of a freeze up if it goes out for a while and that is to use glycol in the pipes.  Good luck!  Roger 

[thecfarm]

Congrats on the baby you two!!!!
Where will the wood stove be,in basement or in the living space?

[doctorb]

I've been pondering your situation, and my thinking takes me away from an OWB as your heat choice.  While I love mine, it runs all winter with minimal restarts.  Your situation is much different.  If your wife will be a "reluctant warrior" with an OWB, it's probably not a good choice for you.  Most gassifiers stoves require some maintenance, both daily (minor) and biweekly or so (moderate) that she it not going to want to perform.  If your away for three weeks straight, your OWB will be smoking and she and your neighbors will be unhappy.  I just think that OWB's were meant to be taken care of on a daily basis, and they may not be the best choice for someone with long stretches away from a home still occupied by your family.  And I agree with your comment, under the circumstances you have stated, you will be using this stove for a long time before you recoup the $ you put into it, if used intermittantly.

I would suggest an indoor wood stove (upstairs) or a wood furnace (basement) for wood based heat.  If you and your wife have been comfortable with an indoor wood stove, then that may best the best way to get away from the oil or propane truck when you are home.  Maybe she would be OK with either one during your weeks away.  You will need a full backup heat for one or the other, regardless.  Can't have that house getting cold with that infant arriving!

Geothermal is also a nice option.  Where you are living however, it may not be quite as attractive as your winters are very cold, and you don't need much AC in the summer.  So part of the benefits of geothermal are diminished as the best efficiency with this method is the air conditioning, which you wouldn't use much.  Remember geothermal uses forced hot air only ( I think).  It does not provide domestic hot water (although it can provide a boost) and does not provide hot water baseboard / radiator heat.  I am unclear whether or not it can support radiant floor heat (lower temp system).  Geothermal can not generate the high water temps seen with oil, propane, or wood heat systems.  You will need further info to determine about geothermal and radiant heat.  As the temps involved with radiant floor heating are around 130 degress, it may be possible to use geothermal for radiant heat.  I just don't have that information.

I would also suggest a planned backup generator for your house.  It would be best to be able to design which circuits it needs to run while you are constructing the house, versus as a retrofit later.  If you chose propane heat, you could run your generator off of that, so that there would be no running outside to fill the generator with gasoline during power outages.

Tough decisions.  Keep us posted on your thought process.

[Norm]

Congratulations Piston!

[jdonovan]

I don't want to make my wife go outside and feed the OWB in freezing cold conditions and blowing winds.  Even if I did, I don't think she would be too happy about it  :D
So what are some of my options? 

Then you are not a candidate for a OWB.

I do think that most of the time my wife would fill the OWB if I made it easy, which of course I would, buy stacking dry wood nearby under cover and not putting the OWB 300' away through the woods or something  :D
However, for those times when it is just nasty rain, or we are away, or she just doesn't wanna go outside to fill the furnace because she is watching the baby or something (Oh ya, good news guys, my wife is pregnant...FINALLY  8))

OWB's are not like central heating. Its not a set and forget type appliance. There are maintenance tasks that have to get done, daily, and weekly. Unless the wife is 100% behind the OWB then its going to be a tension point between you.

Depending on your local town they may require a traditional heating source in addition to the OWB to meet building codes.

If your floor plan allows for it a 'russian fireplace' might be a mid-way compromise. Its a large centrally located masonry fireplace. You burn wood in the fireplace to transfer heat to the 10,000+lbs of stone, brick, etc... around it. Then the masonry radiates the heat into the living space for the next 10-40 hours.

The indoor gassifiers might be an option too. Check with your home insurance people about indoor wood heating appliance. This will eliminate the long trip to the OWB in the middle of the night, but you need a way to EASILY get 3-5 cords into the basement every year. If you go that route, think about a garage door into the basement with a tall enough door for the tractor to bring in baskets of wood.

[chevytaHOE5674]

My other half has no problems feeding the OWB (she says it beats paying for propane). When I am going to be gone I make sure to leave a lot of smaller pieces of wood by the stove so it is easy for her to load. But then again we live on a farm so she always has to go outside and visit her pets and feed the cattle when I'm gone anyways.

[doctorb]

I did some checking and geothermal can run radiant floor heat.  Apparently temps around 115 - 120 degrees are possible with geothermal systems.  I was not aware of that. 

In terms of comfort, that may be your best answer.  It would require no work from you or your wife, and the place would be cozy.  With a back up generator to keep the pumps running, you'd be all set.  Up front costs are dependent upon the size of the system and the number of wells you need  drilled.  Retrofitting geothermal can be a pain, but with new construction, it's easily designed into you building.  So that would be my choice - geothermal.  It's pricy at the beginning, no doubt, but you'll save a lot on energy bills for a long time.  It ups the value of your home as well.  You could place a woodstove or fireplace insert inside to "play with wood burning while you're home!

[jdonovan]

Remember geothermal uses forced hot air only ( I think). 

It does not provide domestic hot water (although it can provide a boost)

does not provide hot water baseboard / radiator heat.

Ground source heat can do all of the above.
   

I am unclear whether or not it can support radiant floor heat (lower temp system). 

It can.

Geothermal can not generate the high water temps seen with oil, propane, or wood heat systems.

It could, in theory, but residential systems are not generally designed for high temp output.

Ground source is generally not a good choice to feed hot water baseboard/radiator, but it can be done.

[logman]

I'm heating my house with my 50 gal. propane water heater.  I plan on putting in an owb but haven't had the time yet.  I have baseboard heat but it would work with radiant also.  It's only putting out 145 degree water but it hasn't been a problem.  My house is well insulated (sips) so I don't know how well it would work on a poorly insulated house. 

[beenthere]

I'm a bit puzzled by the various comments about heating. I've had radiant baseboard and under-floor heat in my home for 40+ years, and run 180 deg F heated water through it all the time.

With my wood boiler (IWB) I try to keep the water temp between 100 and 180 deg by the amount of wood I throw in. Just enough to keep the damper from closing is what I aim for, and heat two levels of 1400 ft² each.

I must be missing something, but it wouldn't be the first time. ;)

[Holmes]

  Piston my first thought is put your money in spray foam insulation and good quality windows. It is a lot easier to heat a 30,000 btu house than a 66,000 btu house. A high quality insulation job may be the best money you can spend on your families new home.  You will be able to heat the house with a wood stove in the basement if you want . Heck if you insulate it well enough you could use electric heat and be ahead of the game.
  My profile picture is a 5000 sq ft. house that is spray foam insulated,  heating and hot water uses 800 gallons of oil a year.    Holmes

[Norm]

If you do insulate it that well make sure to invest in an air to air exchanger. I just put one in and I'm really impressed with it. Houses now that are really well insulated and have really good windows will have water running down them in the winter without one.

[Holmes]

  Good point Norm. There is a process to follow on super insulated houses, but the insulation will save you money every day after it is installed.

[doctorb]

Beenthere-

Obviously, I'm no plumber (not a urologist either :D) but here's what I've been told about water temp.  180 degrees is perfect for hot water baseboard / radiator heat.  Radiant heat can be another story, dependent upon what material that the hot water pipes are constructed of, and the material through which they run.  My understanding is that concrete will crack with the higher temps, and it's suggested that the water temp not be above 130 degrees.  Most of these systems have a remixing valve which shoots some of the water leaving the radiant grid back into the inflow to the grid to lower its temp.  So my HWBB is at 180 degrees, my radiant heat is at 130 degrees.  that's what I got!  Now somebody here will let me know that what I got is wrong!

[beenthere]

I hear ya Doc. thanks

[Holmes]

   Doctorb  I would say your statement is correct. What you have is right. 
   Beenthere  although your system is not designed to todays standards it works great for you, you are happy with it and that is what matters.

[doctorb]

I have seen premade sections of subflooring with grooves for radiant heat loops.  Is this material more heat resistant and can tolerate higher temps than concrete?

[Holmes]

I have seen premade sections of subflooring with grooves for radiant heat loops.  Is this material more heat resistant and can tolerate higher temps than concrete?

Wood is an insulator so 130* water may warm wood floors up to 100*. Concrete has no insulation value so 130* water will heat concrete to 130*, {to hot to stand on}. The grooved panels are a way to install radiant on top of the subfloor and a finish floor can be installed on top of the grooved panels.   Hope this helps.

[DouginUtah]

 Is this what you are referring to?

http://www.warmboard.com/

Yes, it could take higher temperatures than concrete.

I was going to use it but it was too pricey. I went with slant-fin baseboard heaters.

I was told 140° max for concrete.

[Piston]

Wow!  Lots of replies already  8)

Let me see if I can catch up...

I should have mentioned that the new home we are planning will be timber framed with SIP's for an enclosure system. 

We have pretty much made up our minds on radiant floor heating, we have forced hot air now and hate it, I grew up with baseboard heat and didn't mind that, but I've always wanted radiant floor heat.  We plan to be in this house for a Loooooooong time.  It will certainly be a long term move. 

AsaG,
That sounds like a heck of heating system you have there!  It's better to be overkill than underkill right!   ;D
I haven't thought too much about geothermal yet as I'm just starting to get my feet wet with all my options, needless to say, they are a bit overwhelming!  ;)

Oh, Sweetie Pie wants nothing to do with the OWB.  She takes great pride in reminding me every 30-45 seconds that "my little barn" need to be fed.  It's everything I can do to keep a straight face.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I'm afraid I'd be in a similar situation!

Can you build a walk-out basement?

I think so, we certainly want a walk out basement.  The lot is gently sloping on one part, and gets to about 10% grade or so in another.  We haven't fully made up our mind where on the lot the house will be built, we are leaning towards the more level 'gently sloping' area.  We do still want to make a walk out basement work though, as we plan on eventually finishing the basement and using that as partial living area. 

My wife will often light a fire while I'm away and tend to it for the day.  We have a Woodstock Fireview and it works very well and she is now very comfortable with it.  I would like to get the new, larger Woodstock stove for the new house, with hopes of being able to heat the entire house with just one woodstove.  Maybe I'll keep the fireview for the basement as well. 

You state you're moving to central NH.  Being a native of NH, I live in a small town on near the Connecticut River, and the state of NH requires that no OWB be a non-gassifier, they must be gassifiers.  So, you're limited in that regard.

Roger, I did not know that, thank you. 
Could you explain a little more how you have the E-Classic 1400 tied into your current oil furnace?  You had some good points in your post. 

Where will the wood stove be,in basement or in the living space?

Cfarm, Definitely in the living space, we are planning a central chimney with large woodstove as I mentioned earlier, as we do both LOVE the woodstove heat.  For some reason we can be comfortable at 80° + with wood heat, where I'm sweating at 70° with the forced hot air.  I will probably want a woodstove in the basement as well. 

I have to go for now, I'll catch up with the rest of the posts in a bit.  Thank you everyone for congratulating us on the baby, it's been a long year and half or so of trying and we're finally rewarded with success!  8)

[red]

member Schweizer has a masonary wood stove in the basement check out his web site www.DocBryner.com

[Piston]

Doc,
You bring up a good point with the maintenance of an OWB if I were to expect my wife to run it.  The list of reasons of "Why NOT to have an OWB" is starting to outweigh the list of reasons of why I want one.
Among these are:
Maintenance
Effort to load and keep working properly
May cause divorce  :D

It's sounding more and more like an OWB is not a good fit for my specific situation.   :(

I know for a fact we will have a nice woodstove in the living areas, so that is not really a decision, but rather one we won't do without.  As mentioned, the woodstove is certainly a priority in the new home, and will probably be the new one from Woodstock eventually, but for the time being, will be my Fireview.  We love the soapstone for even heat.

Geothermal is sounding very interesting.  I have a lot of reading to do on pros and cons and whether it would work for our situation.  I'm a little concerned with the cost of a Geothermal system though.  I understand that it will repay me overtime, but the question will be whether we could afford it or not. 
-However, I do have a backhoe and could do the excavating myself, is this a large part of the cost?  Or just a minor part of it? 

I would also suggest a planned backup generator for your house.  It would be best to be able to design which circuits it needs to run while you are constructing the house, versus as a retrofit later.  If you chose propane heat, you could run your generator off of that, so that there would be no running outside to fill the generator with gasoline during power outages.

I fully intend to have a backup generator, and I like the idea you mentioned about the propane.  I could run my furnace and generator off the same tank.  I've never had a propane furnace before, only oil, but I tend to think I'd like propane more as it wouldn't be in my basement. 
I could possibly build a small shed around an outside propane tank? 

[Piston]

Beenthere,
How much maintenance is involved with your IWB?  Also, is it only wood, or is it dual fuel of some sort? 

Holmes,
Your recommendation to spend the extra money on insulation and good windows is a good one.  How do SIPS compare to the spray in foam insulation your speaking of? 

If you do insulate it that well make sure to invest in an air to air exchanger. I just put one in and I'm really impressed with it. Houses now that are really well insulated and have really good windows will have water running down them in the winter without one.

Norm, could you explain a bit more about the air to air exchanger?  How do they work?  I'm aware that they are needed for air quality in very well insulated homes, but what do you mean about the water running down the walls in the winter? 

Boy there sure are a lot of decisions  ???

[Piston]

If I wanted to go with an IWB with the dual fuel option of propane gas (assuming they have this?) I would plan a separate room in the basement just for the IWB, it could be made when the foundation was poured and all walls could be concrete, with some sort of fireproof ceiling as well, and access to outside, making wood handling easier and reducing the risk of fire to almost none.

When IWB are running on the back up fuel, are they still very efficient as heaters?  Or are they only efficient burning wood, and the propane is really only meant to be used in the even that you run out of wood, but in that case do they burn more propane when operating on propane, than a standard 'propane only' furnace? 

[jdonovan]

When IWB are running on the back up fuel, are they still very efficient as heaters?  Or are they only efficient burning wood, and the propane is really only meant to be used in the even that you run out of wood, but in that case do they burn more propane when operating on propane, than a standard 'propane only' furnace?

They are much less efficient than a dedicated propane furnace/boiler. A dedicated burner can get to the 96% range.

Many of the wood gassifiers are 60-70%, I've seen a few near 80%... on wood. I've never seen a rating for them on the back up fuel.

[Piston]

They are much less efficient than a dedicated propane furnace/boiler. A dedicated burner can get to the 96% range.

Many of the wood gassifiers are 60-70%, I've seen a few near 80%... on wood. I've never seen a rating for them on the back up fuel.

Hmm, well that is a little disappointing. 

I am quoting a post from LorenB from the IWB vs. OWB thread, as it was very helpful to me and answered some of my questions.  I am quoting it here so I don't lose it....from this thread-https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,56230.0/all.html
I'm learning a lot from that topic  8)

I have lived with our H.S. Tarm indoor boiler since 1999 and I really like it.  You can see one here:

http://www.woodboilers.com/product-detail.aspx?id=47

Our boiler is the dual-fuel model, with the backup being LP gas.  You can also order the boiler with an oil-fueled backup.  The boiler can be set to switch automatically to the backup burner if the wood fire goes out.  If desired, you can select wood only operation.  You can also select backup fuel only. 

This has been the mildest winter in our 18 years in southern Indiana.  I have burned about one cord of dry firewood so far this season (12 February).  This is unusual.  It would be more normal for us to burn three to four cords of wood during the winter season.  This includes wood to heat all the hot water. 

The H.S. Tarm boiler uses a secondary combustion chamber where additional air is injected into the hot gasses.  The combustion is excellent.  There is NO creosote downstream of the secondary combustion chamber.  There is lots of creosote in the firebox itself. 

I installed a lot of Tarm indoor wood boilers and they are good. I like the idea of the inside boiler and keeping most of the btu's inside the house, but having had to go to houses in the middle of the night to fix overheated boilers that the owner left the door ajar and gone to bed has cured me from wanting the boiler inside the house. Those people were very lucky they did not burn their houses down.

I have had this happen to me twice, but neither time did it get out of hand.  Those two times did give me a good scare, though.  I didn't have to call someone to come cool my boiler down; it's a simple matter to turn the heat on inside the house and run some hot water (from the heat exchanger water heater) down the drain. 

This problem occurs ONLY if the owner leaves the door open (even a crack) and has inserted enough wood to heat the boiler full of water to a dangerous point.  I used to leave the firebox door open a crack to get a fire started.  I have stopped doing that unless I am standing next to the boiler. 

I don't think that this situation would ever cause a house fire, but it certainly could cause the boiler to open a safety valve and vent steam.  I guess if there were even more wood in the boiler after it had drained itself, you could get a fire, but even then it's enclosed in the boiler's firebox.  My guess is that the worst you could do is ruin the boiler.  That result is no small matter; the boiler is thousands of dollars. 

I have had both and by far the biggest reason I now have an outdoor stove is my wife, she doesn't like the smell in the house and there is no posibility of burning inside without an occasional puff of smoke when loading or cleaning the stove. I also like the mess outside, when handling wood there are always pieces of bark, dirt etc.

We do get smoke inside the house occasionally, although very rarely now.  The trick is to start a small fire first, then add more wood after the fire gets burning well.  If you load the firebox up with a cold boiler, the fan will not supply enough air for the size fire you are trying to start, and it will smoulder for quite a while.  Smoke will escape from the auxiliary burner hole and/or the flue vacuum regulator.  (I don't know the proper terminology for that item.  There is a Tee fitting in the stovepipe that leaves the boiler.  It has a flapper in it that will open to allow ambient air to enter the chimney if the chimney is drawing too much vacuum.  I'm sure this is to prevent the chimney from sucking air through the fire when the boiler's fan is off.)

As far as the mess is concerned, it certainly could be an issue.  Our boiler is installed in the basement, in its own room with the water heater and water softener.  That room has an outside door through which I bring firewood.  The mess is contained entirely in that room, which I sweep up occasionally.  You must keep the area directly in front of the boiler clean, because hot coals and embers sometimes fall from the loading or clean out doors. 

One of the keys to using a wood-fired boiler, including mine, is to load an appropriate amount of wood.  If your heat load is low, don't fill the firebox full.  This will prevent the hazard of an overheated boiler if you don't get the door closed properly.  It will also cut down on the smoke issue.  Last, and perhaps most important, it will prevent long periods where the boiler has a smouldering fire in the firebox.  This situation creates gasses that encourage corrosion and should be avoided if possible. 

The water temperature in the H.S. Tarm boiler is controlled by starting and stopping the combustion air fan.  This fan has a damper that closes automatically when the fan shuts off.  When the fan shuts off, virtually all air is blocked from the firebox.  If you shut the fan off manually (by switching the boiler off) the fire will extinguish.  It will not ALMOST extinguish; it will go completely out.  During normal operation, if heat is being removed from the boiler, the fan will cycle enough to keep the coals hot enough to ignite when air is again provided.  The system works very well. 

Our installation includes an additional safety system.  I think it is required by the H.S. Tarm instructions, and maybe also by the building code, but I don't know.  My boiler and radiant floor system was installed by a professional.  Tarm Biomass (the U.S. distributor) told me that they would not warranty the boiler unless it was professionally installed.  Now that I see it, I realize that I would never have done it right. 

The additional safety system is a large baseboard heater that is used to dissipate boiler heat in the event of a power failure.  If the boiler loses power, valves automatically open to allow the boiler water to thermosiphon to the baseboard heaters. 

All in all, I really like our indoor boiler.  One of the main reasons for choosing it over an outdoor unit is that I was unable to find any outdoor boiler with a secondary combustion chamber. 

I used to travel for my work, and for my wife (who refuses to deal with the boiler) I would leave the boiler set up to switch to LP gas after my last load of wood burned up.  Since I retired in 2007 we have bought only one tankful of LP gas (which we also use for cooking).  This season, our 500 gallon LP tank is still over 50% full. 

-- Loren

[sparky1]

I do love my OWB. I would recommend them to anyone! with that said, if i were to be building a new house, i wouldnt hesitate on putting in geothermal!!!  I know there pricy, but so is an OWB. plus if your busy, which many of us are. your free time is spent cutting wood!  Im gone everyday during the week and am only home on the weekends. so a good chuck of my weekends (spring) are spend cutting wood!

[bandmiller2]

Piston, radiant floor heat,if engineered and installed right is hard to beat.A well insulated house ,radiant floor ether oil or propane,and a good wood stove in the house is probibly your best option.Open timber frame house lends itself well to wood stove heating.When your around  or during a power outage the wood stove will carry the house.When your away let the conventional boiler handle the heat.A wood shed attached to the house would be handy for mommy to keep the wood stove stoked.Good news on the little one,they will change your life. Frank C.

[Piston]

Thanks Frank,
The woodstove in the open floor plan home, with traditional style, efficient furnace does seem like the most practical way to go. 

I'm still looking into the IWB and geothermal ideas.  I do really like the idea of heating with wood as much as possible, sort of my way of 'sticking it to the man'  :D

As of my initial impressions, my ideal setup right now would be a dual fuel model IWB in a separate room in the basement, easily accessible from the outside for firewood storage and handling.  I still don't fully understand the water tank storage and where that comes into play yet. 

However, the unbeatable ease and economy (post installation costs) of geothermal is probably going to sound pretty good to my wife! 

[AsaG]

Norm, could you explain a bit more about the air to air exchanger?  How do they work?  I'm aware that they are needed for air quality in very well insulated homes, but what do you mean about the water running down the walls in the winter? 

Boy there sure are a lot of decisions  ???

I'm not Norm but I'll take a stab at an answer.

The air exchanger he is making reference to passes the "stale" air being exhausted from the building through a heat exchanger where, depending on the season, the heat is transferred to or extracted from the fresh incoming air.  These come in two flavors;  A  heat recovery ventilator transfers only heat between the two air streams.  An energy recovery ventilator transfers heat and humidity between the two air streams.  Many localities are requiring these in new construction.

While on the topic, I must concur with the others about foam insulation and quality windows.  Year after year, both will pay off big time!  We've been doing 2 pound closed cell foam and triple-pane low-E long before "green" was the new buzz word.  Energy costs are only going to go one way and is sure isn't down.

[Holmes]

  Piston  Properly installed sips panels are very good, r5 per inch about r28 for an exterior wall. Stick frame with 2 lb spray foam r6.8 per inch r 24 for a 31/2 " exterior wall r 35 for a 51/2" wall and basically no air infiltration.  A draw back to sips is installing electric wiring in the sips panels.                   
I like your approach to building your new house. You are asking great questions and getting lots of feed back. You can not make an educated decision without learning how all these processes are done.

[Dustin]

I have been contiplating this very same thing. This summer we are hoping to lift the house up, pour a new basement, and add on to the house.  Right now we have a propane furnace that is barely big enough to heat the house now let alone the addition. What we are thinking about was geothermal and a "Fireplace Xtrodinar Elite" on the main level of the house. The main level of the house will be a open layout for the most part. Is a fireplace and geothermal a good combination? I really would like to get away from having to pay to fill a propane tank.

[Hilltop366]

Well Piston, you got a lot of thinking to do.

I'll chip in with my $.02.

Here's what I got. A 10 year old house with some timber frame (1500 sqft main floor +1000 sqft loft with about 1/2 of the loft usable living space), the walls are 6" fibreglass  in between studs + r5 of foam over the outside studs then boards and siding, the roof has 8" of fibreglass + r5 of foam on the inside of rafters so it is fairly well insulated.

The main floor is 4" of concrete with r7.5 foam under it with in floor hot water heat.(no basement) the heat is supplied by a 1970s HS Tarm solo boiler that I picked up unused (had never been installed) when I was building my house, I think I paid around $1100 for it, so there was no question on what to buy when I checked it out.

The pros:

Warm floors feel nice on the feet.

It takes a long time to cool down.

Draws less than one amp at 110v (no zone valves on my set up, I use one 110v thermostat to turn on the circulator pump) so it can be run on a small inexpensive inverter with no ghost draw from transformers. I can also run some lights with this as well.

I cut my own wood and have the time to do it so it is cheap for me to run, saw gas, chain oil and some diesel for the tractor is less than $200 per year cleaning up wind fall and bug kill trees.

The cons:

It takes a long time to heat up when the temperature cools off quick and takes a long time to cool down when the temperature goes back up. this may not be as much of a problem if you outside temps are more steady but around here it can go from 14°f to 50°f and back from one day to the next. In floor with concrete would be better suited for a basement living space for me.

The floors are hard (it makes a tough place for a kid to learn to walk)


So this is where I would be looking if I was building again, wood hot water low mass in floor with a large mass storage with an electric hot water heater for backup, solar hot water collectors would be nice as well. Or a wood stove with a hot air system, if the hot air system was set up right it can be used to circulate the wood stove heat to the rest of the house by adding a cooling thermostat near the wood stove that turns on the furnace circulator fan.

[Piston]

Well Piston, you got a lot of thinking to do.

Hilltop,
You said that right!  I'm actually a bit overwhelmed at this point.   :D
Thanks for your informative post.  I'm gonna sleep on this for tonight, and reread this thread tomorrow and see how much I retained  :D

I'll comment more tomorrow.  Thank you to all who contributed thus far.   ;)

[jdonovan]

I still don't fully understand the water tank storage and where that comes into play yet. 

The real benefit to the storage tank is that you can run the OWB at its ideal burn rate/temp until the fuel supply is exhausted. Once the house heat demand is met the 'extra' heat goes into the water for storage. In spring/fall you might be able to get away only firing up your OWB every few days, perhaps even once a week depending on how much heating you need and how much water you can store.

Lets say you have designed for 120 degree water for the in floor radiant, and you store water at 190 in the  tank. That gives us a delta of 70 degrees, and lets assume 500 gals of storage.

500 gal * 8.3 lbs/gal = 4150 lbs of water
4150 * 70 degrees = 209500 BTU's stored.

Get to 1000, or 2000 gal's of water and you could potentially store the energy of a full load of wood into that water tank. This gives you a very nice buffer so the short term demand from the house could exceed the OWB's capacity assuming the storage was hot. But the OWB will need to be sized properly so as to exceed the homes worst-case needs.

Properly designed/sized water storage can make a big difference in how well a OWB system works.

[Norm]

AsaG did a great job of explaining the air to air exchanger Piston. Our house is really well insulated with tons of windows that are high quality. Comes winter and I'm getting water running down the windows. I blamed it on the windows leaking but last year while having the ac unit replaced I mentioned about what crappy windows I have. The installer said you don't have crappy windows quite to the contrary they are not leaking and what you have is all of the humidity from living there causing this. I was skeptical but thought what do I have to lose, the windows were going to rot out if I didn't do something. Much to my surprise it works better than I ever imagined. No moisture on the windows and the air in our house is so much fresher. The first day of using it Patty and I both went wow it's like having the windows open. Mine ran $2200 installed and is a Lenox, best money I've spent in ages.

http://www.lennox.com/products/indoor-air-quality-systems/HRV/

[blackfoot griz]

Piston,
One more consideration would be a masonry style wood burner. About 5 years ago, we built a new house and went through the same agony you are going through. We finally decided to install a Tulikivi. The entire thing is made out of soapstone and weighs about 9,000 pounds. These dont burn like a traditional wood stove. You build a big hot fire and let it roar. It will burn for 2-3 hours and when its done--shut it down. Because of the mass, it will achieve it's max temperature about 2 hours after the fire is out. They are clean burning and only burn for 2-3 hours a day.

Ours also has a bake oven in it. My wife loves to cook and she loves the bake oven. Last Christmas, we had a housefull of family/friends and we cranked out 12 pizzas. She calls it the"magic oven". From Sept--early May, we rarely use our electric oven.

I hope someday to build a shop and heat it with an OWB. But, living in Montana, if I ever build another house I would definately install another masonry fireplace.

[jdonovan]

These dont burn like a traditional wood stove. You build a big hot fire and let it roar. It will burn for 2-3 hours and when its done--shut it down. Because of the mass, it will achieve it's max temperature about 2 hours after the fire is out. They are clean burning and only burn for 2-3 hours a day.

If you needed more heat, you could add more wood and burn more than the 2-3 hours right?

[blackfoot griz]

These dont burn like a traditional wood stove. You build a big hot fire and let it roar. It will burn for 2-3 hours and when its done--shut it down. Because of the mass, it will achieve it's max temperature about 2 hours after the fire is out. They are clean burning and only burn for 2-3 hours a day.

If you needed more heat, you could add more wood and burn more than the 2-3 hours right?

Yes. Last night here in Western MT we had a high temp of 40 and a low of -4. Last night, around 6:00, I started a fire and it burned until around 8:30. I shut it down and it is still plenty warm.

If we have sustained sub zero temps, we'll burn two fires a day--morning and evening--using a little more total firewood than the usual once daily fire. It is just a big heat mass. Unless we both go away for a few days, this thing never totally cools down from September--May.

[Holmes]

  Piston Let me help muddy the water. If you want a top performer that will last your life time look into the Garn boiler. It  gasifies and will heat your house on a load of wood a day. It should be installed in an unattached garage. 250,000 btu's and 1400 gallons of water storage.  Holmes

[Piston]

I still don't fully understand the water tank storage and where that comes into play yet. 

The real benefit to the storage tank is that you can run the OWB at its ideal burn rate/temp until the fuel supply is exhausted. Once the house heat demand is met the 'extra' heat goes into the water for storage. In spring/fall you might be able to get away only firing up your OWB every few days, perhaps even once a week depending on how much heating you need and how much water you can store.

Lets say you have designed for 120 degree water for the in floor radiant, and you store water at 190 in the  tank. That gives us a delta of 70 degrees, and lets assume 500 gals of storage.

500 gal * 8.3 lbs/gal = 4150 lbs of water
4150 * 70 degrees = 209500 BTU's stored.

Get to 1000, or 2000 gal's of water and you could potentially store the energy of a full load of wood into that water tank. This gives you a very nice buffer so the short term demand from the house could exceed the OWB's capacity assuming the storage was hot. But the OWB will need to be sized properly so as to exceed the homes worst-case needs.

Properly designed/sized water storage can make a big difference in how well a OWB system works.

Thank you for that excellent description.  I understand a lot more clearly now the reason for additional storage.  If I were to have an OWB (or IWB whichever) without storage, I would have to keep it running anytime I needed heat, which in the winter would be most of the day, however in the shoulder seasons when I didn't need much heat, then the boiler would basically shut down, which would leave a smoldering fire, until I called for more heat.  Whereas, with a large amount of storage, I would heat the house when my boiler was firing and calling for heat, then when the house was heated and didn't call for heat any longer, the boiler would continue burning at an efficient rate, and all the heat generated would be used to heat up my storage tank, and eventually I could let the boiler go out.  Once my storage tank was back down to a low enough temperature, to where it needed to be reheated, I would relight my boiler.  I think I understand it pretty well now.  Thanks again  ;D


Blackfoot Griz,
I've looked into masonry fireplaces before and always thought they were very interesting.  I've never seen one run or felt the heat from how they work.  It would be worth looking into. 
My wife really doesn't like lighting the fires.  She doesn't mind at all keeping them going or tending to them, but she doesn't like to light them.  She'll do it, but she would prefer to have it going all the time, and simply add wood to it.  She actually really likes the woodstove a lot more than I ever thought she would.  I'm away from home now, and she is sitting in the living room with the woodstove going, it's 82° in there now, with snow falling outside.  I'm really proud of her to say the least!  I just wish I was there  :D


Holmes,
I really think I'm starting to get pretty interested in the IWB, particularly some sort of dual fuel model with propane backup.  Any recommendations for those? 
I do worry about the fire hazard of an indoor boiler, but if I planned it ahead of time and added on a well thought out, separate room in the basement dedicated for the boiler, I imagine it could be a very safe setup.

[Norm]

I don't want to hijack Piston's thread but is there any chance of you showing us your Tulikivi on a new thread Blackfoot Griz? I'm thinking of getting one but have never seen what they are capable of.

[Holmes]

  Years ago you needed to find a good mason to build a masonry heater. Now you can buy a kit and assemble the heater yourself. These units are mostly soapstone all you have to do is follow the instructions.  Once assembled a fire is started in the fire box with the top damper open. When you have a decent fire going the lower damper is opened and the top damper is shut off. The chimney draft pulls the fire downward thru the bottom of the fire box, the smoke travels down into the flue. This flue travels horizontally for a few feet then wraps  around the heater a couple of times entering the vertical flue before going thru the roof. Most of these units are vented with a metal flue after leaving the Masonry heater.    Between the fire and the flue gasses  the mass of soapstone gets heated and delivers a warm steady heat for many hours .  These are air tight heaters.

[Piston]

I don't want to hijack Piston's thread but is there any chance of you showing us your Tulikivi on a new thread Blackfoot Griz? I'm thinking of getting one but have never seen what they are capable of.

Feel free to post some pics here as well.  I'd be interested to hear about the price of something like this?

[Holmes]

 Piston  Woodstock stove has a masonry heater.

[blackfoot griz]

I don't want to hijack Piston's thread but is there any chance of you showing us your Tulikivi on a new thread Blackfoot Griz? I'm thinking of getting one but have never seen what they are capable of.

Feel free to post some pics here as well.  I'd be interested to hear about the price of something like this?

I sent Norm a PM. I have new fancy Nikon camera and took a couple pictures...they are in a jpeg format :(

[Piston]

Piston  Woodstock stove has a masonry heater.

I'm VERY surprised I let that slip through the cracks!  I usually watch they're developments pretty closely too.  I really like the looks of that unit  ;D

http://woodstocksoapstoneco.blogspot.com/search/label/Masonry%20Heater

[blackfoot griz]

 

  

 


It heats..and cooks! What is strange is that the top does not get hot. There is a live plant on the top.

[Norm]

Way to go and nice setup too.

[red]

www.heatkit.com    lots of info

[Handy Andy]

  Before  building my house 30 years ago,  read all the passive solar books could find. Mostly what  came out of it was to site the house longways east and west, so you can have as many large south facing windows as possible.  And as few on the north as possible.  Amazing the heat gain you get in the afternoons of sunny days, and even better if you have snow on the ground. If you have south sloping land, you could have windows that give that gain into the basement as well, just don't put a deck over them so you don't shade them.  The other part about passive solar is to over- insulate, at least 6" walls, lots in ceiling, consider styrofoam on bsmt walls etc.  About windows, I used pella casement, and they don't last.  Use double hung windows so you can put storm windows on, or you have to replace the sashes every 15 or 20 years. The wonderful thing about a walk-out is how easy it is to just carry your wood inside and stack it in a store room.  Where it is dry when you need it.

[schweizer]

Hi piston, and others,

Just found out about this thread (thanks Red).   Looks like you are doing your due diligence.   Sounds like it will be a beautiful home.   

To put in my 2 cents, we have a custom built masonry stove that heats our 2600 sq ft new log home.   The central core is by Heat Kit.   The kit was about $6000 if memory serves correctly.   It's an even temperature.   You make the fire and then don't have to tend it all day.   Just close it all down in a few hours when the fire is close to burned out.   Ours has a stainless steel water loop in the back of the firebox which I use to heat water in a 500 gallon water storage tank.   That water, in turn, is used to pre-heat domestic water for the house.   Here are some pics of the heater under construction:  http://www.docbryner.com/mossy_hollow/Masonry_Stove.html   The page hasn't been updated in the past year since we started heating with it but it works great.   You can see more pictures in the "Stonemill House" & "Thermal Storage" sections of my website.
Our masonry stove is very similar to the Tulikivi that Blackfoot Griz is describing, except that the Heat Kit or Temp Cast cores are very customizable.   For instance, we added a heated bench on 3 sides and used 4" thick rock from our own land for the facing.

When heating with masonry stoves, you can keep the house air temp a bit cooler because the radiant heat from the stove makes you feel warmer.   Also the walls and solid structures in the room will be warmer than the air.   Sorta strange at first.   It works best w/ an open floor plan.   They work well as an architectural focus, open to 3 sides of the room.

Oh, and the county made us install a backup heating system besides wood, so we installed a propane forced are system, with ducts only on the main floor.   I found it's great for heating up the air temp much faster when we've been gone for a few days on vacation and want to get the house back up to temp quickly.   

My house/land project website:  http://www.docbryner.com/mossy_hollow
Heat Kit gallery pages:  http://www.heatkit.com/html/gallery.htm

We'll be interested in whatever you decide.

Marcus

[Piston]

Schweizer,
That is an impressive looking Masonry Heater to say the least  8)

I love how you used rock from your own land to face it.  I honestly never even considered a masonry heater prior to starting this thread.  I started reading more and more about them and they are indeed very interesting. 

I read quite a bit about the Heat Kit and how it works.  I'm curious how much extra the masonry labor cost for your setup, using your own rocks on your land?  I have many many rocks on my land that are field stone piles, plenty for probably a decent sized home!  They are already piled neatly from some poor farmer who probably died of back pain!


As much as I'd like large windows to the south in my home, unfortunately the view is to the North, about the worst direction possible for passive solar.  I do plan however to have some sort of windows facing south to try and take advantage of at least some of it. 


My main concern unfortunately is going to be price.  The house I WANT to build is about 600k, which is quite a ways over our budget, so I'm having to weigh the options we want, need, and can do without. 

It seems like everyone and their brother is building gigantic homes these days.  I try looking at floorplans and homes online to get a good idea of what we want, and every house I come across is huge by my standards.  We originally sort of settled on something around 2,000-2,500 square feet, but we are not thinking more and more that we really don't NEED that much space if the house is thought out well. 

Try google imaging 'timber frame home' and you get mostly 3,000+ homes!  We're trying to find some nice home floor plans for around 1,500-1,800 square feet.  Still quite a bit bigger than our current home which gives us plenty of room, however we don't have any kids yet either, just 3 massive dogs, but one child on the way, so we are certainly planning for 'additions'

[Piston]

It heats..and cooks! What is strange is that the top does not get hot. There is a live plant on the top.

Blackfoot griz,
I thought I commented on your masonry heater already but I guess not.  Thanks for posting pics, that thing looks VERY inviting to sit near!  I wouldn't mind trying out one of those fresh oven baked pizzas either  ;D

[jdonovan]

As much as I'd like large windows to the south in my home, unfortunately the view is to the North, about the worst direction possible for passive solar.  I do plan however to have some sort of windows facing south to try and take advantage of at least some of it. 

If you design so you have a large roof area that is south facing you can put panels on the roof to collect the sun and make hot water. You can then store/use that for radiant heating. Not quite as good as a fully passive system, but still way better than oil/electric/gas.

It seems like everyone and their brother is building gigantic homes these days.  I try looking at floorplans and homes online to get a good idea of what we want, and every house I come across is huge by my standards.  We originally sort of settled on something around 2,000-2,500 square feet, but we are not thinking more and more that we really don't NEED that much space if the house is thought out well. 

Don't forget that some day you may need to sell. Try and build close to what the area has for an average home. You don't want to be the mansion in the neighborhood, but being the shack is equally bad. I'm in a similar situation and we are going to put a few few bedrooms upstairs, but don't ever expect someone to sleep in one. We are doing a bit of a modified cape-cod style, so 'upstairs' is in the roof system and doesn't' cost that much more in the truss system to make livable spare out of the attic area.  Also it shouldn't take too much to get a 'legal' bedroom in a basement area. You can use the room for other purposes, but when it comes time to sell, you've now got one more bedroom than you original planned.

[Holmes]

  The building of starter mansions has slowed down a lot.     A 2400 sq.' house is a great size and better if you have a 1200 sq.' walk out basement. Now if you add a 2+ car garage with a full basement under it with a garage door for your equipment you will have plenty of space until you build the barn you need.

[downeast]

You've got some serious research from the ideas here Piston.

We did similar research into wood heating 'systems' when building besides the insulation, building orientation, and cost. The final choice was partly economical, but also space design, and simplicity with familiarity of technology. For ~ 2000 ft² two larger/medium BTU cap. stand-alone wood stoves were the best for us: one cat, the other non-cat.

Masonry heater/Russian Fireplace: required space, and infrastructure cost and cost of materials and construction were ~ $20 K. From visits to homes using the heaters there were minor problems heating; variability of the heat, no method for lowering heat when not needed. The large mass heats up very efficiently then stays warm for the day. Great in dead winter here, not so in shoulder seasons.
The most efficient wood heater available.

OWB: no. Too much plumbing, pumping, power need, going outdoors to load ! At that time OWB technology was non-gasifier, they had and still do, a poor rep for dark smokey burns i.e. creosote. " I burn anything in my boiler." >:(

Wood furnaces: close to what we wanted but also expensive, required extensive plumbing for hot water, or ducting, and needed power.
Tarm was one manufacturer we investigated . I think that they have a dual fuel furnace burning wood and an auto transfer to the fossil burn when the wood fire stops. Not a bad concept. 8)

At the time, we had no power, now run down to the place. Running the generator just for heating and the 4-6x per year with downed lines was not something we wanted.

The two stoves now run 24/7, a propane 'space' heater will bring 1/2 of the space up to ~ 50 F when we're away for short periods in winter, for the plumbing, while the other 1/2 is shut off (no plumbing to worry about --the design ).

Stand alone wood stoves are low tech, and take some minor effort to run and maintain. It's done well here Downeast for over a decade. The woodlot gives us the needed wood and will so until we can't "come down for breakfast." ;D

Nice suggestion to think about a future sale---we did not.

[logman]

Our house is 1400 sq. ft. and it's too big for my wife and I.  When we were building it we built one section for my mother in law but she passed away before we were finished.  Now we have a whole upstairs that we don't really need.  600k, is that you building it or someone else?  Check out Cowee Mountain Timber Frames, they have lots of frames under 2500 sq. ft. 

[John Mc]

There are a couple of very good timber frame companies near me that do custom designs.

Vermont Frames (Hinesburg, VT) will do custom designs, and has some existing plans on their web site that they can build as is, or serve as a starting point for your thinking. The page linked has some of their designs, including smaller homes.

Liberty Head Post & Beam is who we had do our timber frame. We're very happy with the work they did. The page linked shows sketches of some of their houses, with floor plans.

I did notice when we were looking around that some of the timber frame companies we looked at really leaned towards building "McMansions" or larger (seemed to be more of those types of companies the further south we looked as we checked out timber frame companies in VT and NH). The ones I linked above build a range of sizes (and in fact, Liberty Head was encouraging us to think about what we really needed, and "think small" where possible.)

[Piston]

John,
Thanks for the recommendations of companies.  I've actually been meaning to post a thread on timber framer recommendations as we start getting closer to being ready to build.  Do you have any others that you would recommend, or better yet NOT recommend?  Feel free to PM me if you have any that you wouldn't recommend but don't want to post it. 

We started looking into Timberpeg, Bensonwood, Davis Frame Company, Vermont Timberworks, Yankee Barn Homes, and a few others.  However, we haven't met with any of them yet, just a few phone calls so far. 

We are concentrating on getting the land finalized and once it is officially in our name (hopefully within the month) we will start visiting some companies/builders and getting a better feel for prices and floor plans. 

Logman,
We will be having someone else build our home, I wish I could do it myself but that just won't happen  :D

[logman]

Don't know if it matters to you but all those companies you mentioned except maybe Vermont produce machine cut frames.  I looked at Vermont Timberworks prices, they are actually fairly reasonable, in the $15-16 sq. ft. range for the frame.  I really don't know how machine cut frames compare other than I lost a job to one a while back.  They outbid me on the panel installation.  Good luck with whatever you build.  In case you don't know also if you send a request to the Timber Frame Business Council you will get lots of companies responding to your request. 

[red]

check out www.GarlandMill.com  and www.NotsoBigHouse.com 

[John Mc]

Piston -

We looked at Bensonwood as well, and visited their facility. My impression was that they were a first-class operation, but on the pricey side as well.

We went with Liberty Head because we liked some of the details of how they did their framing, and also because we liked their design philosophy and just clicked with their people.

[downeast]

Marcus:
Spectacular place you've done in Grants Pass. Interesting website ! 8)
Can you share some costs of your home and infrastructure ?
Thanks.

[Crappiekeith]

Lots of talk about geo thermal...OWB/IWB heating.
After reading the entire thread...how about a multifuel wood/oil warm air furnace that lites itself.

[beenthere]

Usual problem is the size of the combustion chamber that holds the right amount of wood for the btu size of the furnace is so much larger and thus less efficient for the alternate fuel, be it oil or gas.
If a design is available that takes care of that difference, then the combo system might work.

[Crappiekeith]

exactly....Yukon.

[Piston]

Lots of talk about geo thermal...OWB/IWB heating.
After reading the entire thread...how about a multifuel wood/oil warm air furnace that lites itself.

I do like the idea of a multifuel furnace, however, I've thought a lot more about it, and the more I think of the pros and cons, the more I think I'd really like to have the separate wood burning furnace and separate regular furnace.  I want this for "backup" since I'm away a lot, and I don't want something that my wife has to worry about while I'm away, if it breaks.  Also, I don't think she'll realistically fill the firebox each and every day  :D  Although she does surprise me with how much she keeps the woodstove going while I'm away.

I'd like to be able to leave, have the furnace come on (even if I have to manually switch something over) and let it run until I come home, then get back to burning wood. 

I visited a family friend to take a look at his setup.  He and his wife were telling us a lot about it (although I can't remember the manufacturer).  He has an indoor wood furnace right next to an oil fired furnace.  He uses it in a vacation home in NH and when they are there, all they burn is wood, but when they're away (which is the great majority of time) they use the oil fired furnace.  They said if they were to do it all over again, they wouldn't do the indoor wood furnace, however the reason was because they are almost never there, which makes perfect sense.  I told him that his setup was pretty much perfect as far as what I was looking for. 

I have mostly decided (which all subject to change of course  :D) that I want an IWB and a separate oil (or gas) fired furnace.  I will have to weigh the completely installed cost vs. how long it would take me to make my money back, which would probably be double the time it took most of you, since I"m not always around. 

Even if it costs me slightly more, I may still go that route, only because I can't think of anything more satisfying than heating my entire home on wood alone, that I cut out of my woodlot. 

On a side note:  It's been a LONG road and we've run into a LOT of headaches with the land we will be building on, but this past week we finally got all the required paperwork done, waivers accepted, and deed signed.  So, needless to say, I'm more than excited about this now that it's truly our land.   8)

[doctorb]

It's the journey, along with the destination, that make projects like this fulfilling.  Good luck!

[Norm]

Congratulations Matt!

[Hilltop366]

No where to go now but up!

It took me almost two years to get a right of way to my property, I had almost given up but glad I didn't.

I don't have a basement so it was not an option for me, but I've always been hesitant to put a lot of firewood in the house. I did add a small porch on the back of my ground level furnace room so I could keep 1/2 of a cord inside for those stormy nights so I don't have to go outside for wood to load up the furnace, Seeing others having to load wood and re-stack it in a basement or try to walk down stairs with a arm load makes me glad I didn't.

For me the ideal set-up would be a ground level furnace room with a attached wood shed or covered storage, make some stacking pallet sized 3 sided wood boxes so that when I split my wood I would stack it directly in the boxes and move them to the wood storage by tractor forks. The next step would be to use a pallet jack to move the wood boxes around as they are emptied.

I've got everything but the boxes and a door big enough to put them through.

[Piston]

Thanks guys!  ;D

Hilltop,
I've thought about that a lot as well, and what you described sounds very efficient.  I like the idea of using the pallets to build a 3 sided box and stack them up right from the splitter, that way also you can have all your firewood drying far away from the house as to not cause any issues (and keep the wife happy) and simply bring a new pallet of wood over when the current pallet is empty.  I like handling the firewood as few times as necessary  ;)

[Holmes]

Have you looked at the Garn wood boiler yet?

[beenthere]

I stack on pallets, leave them out under cover for 2-3 years and carry a pallet at a time into the garage for about 5-7 days worth of wood.



 

Also made some sides of two pallets on a pallet for small roundwood from limbs, etc.



 

[Piston]

Beenthere,
I know I"ve seen those pics posted on this site before, and I think you were exactly who made me want to do my firewood that way.  (which reminds me I better get going on that) I like the setup you have. 

Holmes,
Based on your recommendation, I did look into the Garn boiler quite a bit after you mentioned it.  I read pretty extensively on Hearth.com and learned a lot.  It is certainly one of manufacturers that I want to see in operation sometime. 

I know you mentioned the safest way to have a boiler is inside a detached garage, but that of course ads to the inconvenience of it.  Do you think that a properly thought out basement location would be just as safe?  Even something like a dedicated room with all 4 concrete walls, floor, and even ceiling?  Although, this would probably be a little overkill.   ;D

[Holmes]

The properly thought out basement location is a great idea. 3 or 4 concrete walls would be great. Trying to do it right the first time is not an easy task, but I think you are headed in the right direction.

[Piston]

Looks I'll need it well thought out if I want it in the basement, they require a 9' ceiling height according to their website. 

I sort of slipped away from researching the heating choices as of lately, mostly because of the time of year, not thinking about it too much and still have a while to decide, but I'm glad this thread emerged again since it 'reminded' me to get my butt into gear again  ;D