Determining value of NE Red Oak.

chrisroser · July 11, 2014, 05:34:08 PM

I'm a newbee here and know nothing about the industry.
Was approached by a local logger who is interested in my Red Oak. He's currently logging another lot in back of mine. I have about 30 trees with an average diameter, measured at 4.5' of 30". Each tree has approx. 2-3 16' straight lengths in it. Trees are growing on a gentle north facing slope and are monsters compared to what he is currently cutting. Neighbors are no help and won't tell me what they are getting paid for their lot.

The logger offered 5K for 30 trees. Pretty sure that's a sucker's offer. My lot is to small to call in a Forester, Only 2 acres, So I'm pretty much
on my own. I've found an online calculator but need to know things I have zero access to. Like current 4/4 BF price.

Any help or direction is appreciated. Just don't want to give the lumber away.

beenthere · July 11, 2014, 05:51:22 PM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Why do you say too little to call on a Forester?
At least talk to some foresters about value of standing red oak in your area. Doubt they would say you don't have enough timber to talk to you.

chrisroser · July 11, 2014, 05:53:21 PM

Nearest Forester that I could find was a good 2 hours away. He didn't seem to interested in giving me any help.

beenthere · July 11, 2014, 06:21:25 PM

Then until you learn more about your red oak value, I'd not be cutting down the trees. Just my opinion, that you don't need to be in a hurry with that volume and potential value.
There are state of NY foresters knowledgeable about red oak value, and others in this forum can offer some help too.

Do you really want 30 trees of that size taken off your 2 acre lot? Are they free of heart rot, or a bit old in the tooth?

This .pdf may be of some help. You can measure the volume of red oak that you have.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/spr2014winter.pdf

And some pics of the trees and the woods would help with answers or suggestions.

petefrom bearswamp · July 11, 2014, 06:29:28 PM

NYDEC can give you a list of foresters close to you.

beenthere · July 11, 2014, 07:09:30 PM

Quote from: chrisroser on July 11, 2014, 05:34:08 PM
I'm a newbee here and know nothing about the industry.
Was approached by a local logger who is interested in my Red Oak. He's currently logging another lot in back of mine. I have about 30 trees with an average diameter, measured at 4.5' of 30". Each tree has approx. 2-3 16' straight lengths in it. Trees are growing on a gentle north facing slope and are monsters compared to what he is currently cutting. Neighbors are no help and won't tell me what they are getting paid for their lot.

The logger offered 5K for 30 trees. Pretty sure that's a sucker's offer. My lot is to small to call in a Forester, Only 2 acres, So I'm pretty much
on my own. I've found an online calculator but need to know things I have zero access to. Like current 4/4 BF price.

Any help or direction is appreciated. Just don't want to give the lumber away.

You also can do some of the math to add to your calcs so far. Ave diam of 30", will give approx. 376 bdft Doyle rule (from the FF tool box, one 16' log, form class 78 ) per tree. That totals a bit over 11,000 bf Doyle.
Using the average price in the link posted of $585/mbf, comes to near $6,600 (not this almost doubles for some red oak).
But here is where the quality of the trees comes into play, along with the difficulty getting your timber out and how you want the logger to leave your woods. Tops laying, or not. Residual stand in good shape, or not? etc.

Gather more info, including info from the logger. Many of them know as much or more than they get credit for, and if they can't make a buck then they have little interest as they can't work for free. Good luck. More of what you want will be helpful.

tj240 · July 11, 2014, 08:25:17 PM

if he wants them bad enogh he will pay more but you have to make sure the logger leaves YOUR land the way YOU want not the way he feels is ok. for a really good job you could except a little less money but the contract has to meet your standards not his. good luck

Ron Wenrich · July 12, 2014, 06:01:16 AM

Beenthere

You seem to be a little light on the volume. A 30" dbh tree with 2 logs and form class of 80 comes in at 703 bf on the Doyle scale. That ends up being about 21 Mbf. That would bring the value up to $12,337 at that $585 level.

Generally speaking, trees growing on north slopes are often better quality. That's due to better moisture from not drying out during the summer months. The value of most trees is in the butt log. A logger makes more money selling to a veneer buyer than to a saw mill. Last I heard, red oak veneer was in the $1.50 per bf range. Your results may vary. That value should be reflected in the bid price.

That's not to say that every log in the tree is veneer quality, or that any log is veneer quality. A lot depends on other factors with the tree. It seems like it would be worth your while to have a forester look at the trees. Pay them for their services for the day. You would want them to mark the 30 trees and to give you an estimate of value. Pretty hard to believe someone wouldn't come in there for a 1 day trip to provide services. If you want them involved in contract negotiations, that's a different story.

The logger has offered you about $166 per tree. If you're 30" dbh is accurate, that's about $235/mbf. If you can't trust his valuation, will you be able to trust his quality of work?

chrisroser · July 12, 2014, 07:08:19 AM

Thank you all for the responses. Really appreciate it and frankly amazed at the forum participation. Active group indeed.

I do have some quality trees. Over the years several knowledgeable people have commented on how nice they are compared to others in the area. The lot is situated in a small stream carved valley and the north facing slope is just loaded with big straight and tall red oak. I've been told its the ideal situation for that species. No sign of disease and zero dead trees. The only reason I'm even thinking about logging is the fact that the logger is there now with easy access to the lot. He can pull everything out over the neighbors lot thus sparing me from a huge mess on the street side of my property. I'm in no rush to get it done but I'm not sure how long this ideal situation will be available.

He'll be topping most of the trees prior taking them down and wants the larger tops for firewood. Small limbs are on me but I have a landscaper friend with a big chipper that I can borrow for a day or two when he's not using it. With the chipper and my JD 270 skid steer I'll have no problem whipping things back into shape.

I'll be doing some leg work this weekend. Going to mark and measure each tree that can go. That'll at least give me a starting point for a serious calculation of BF.

beenthere, Where can I find this "FF tool box" that you mention?

I did look at the NY DEC Stumpage Price Report for the winter of 2014. Now I understand why the loggers were working so hard this past winter. Looks like prices finally are starting to turn around. By the way, I'm in the Delaware/Catskill region of NY. According to that chart these are the ranges Low-150-600* Average-300-875* High-450-1000* prices as of 12/2014 using the Scribner Rule. Why different rules for different regions?

Thanks again you guy's and enjoy the weekend.

Pete and Jesse · July 12, 2014, 07:18:42 AM

You can contact these two mills, they are in Otsego and Broome Counties, to get a current buy list of logs delivered to their mill.

Wightman Lumber http://www.wightmanlumber.com/first-menu/first-nav/forestry-services/
Wagner Lumber http://wagnerlumber.com/logs/current-pricing

Ron Wenrich · July 12, 2014, 07:43:45 AM

The FF toolbox is located on the left side of this screen, down at the bottom. Its a red toolbox. You'll find several calculators, and the one you want is the one for tree volume.

Topping trees will bring down the logger valuation, since there is extra work involved.

WDH · July 12, 2014, 07:54:11 AM

What is the plan for the property? Is just cutting all the good red oak the best thing to do? Will you have a high graded, low value stand now for the next 200 years if you cut the best and leave the worst? What are your management objectives?

petefrom bearswamp · July 12, 2014, 08:34:44 AM

Once again get a forester.
William Pokon of Forecon in Hancock is a competent one if he is still practicing.
A couple of hundred dollars to a forester may net you several thousand more in the long run.

chrisroser · July 12, 2014, 08:46:27 AM

Thanks Ron Wenrich and Pete & Jesse.

WDH, The 2 acre lot is cut off from the main property by a year round stream. Living in the NY City watershed makes it very difficult/impossible to do anything with the lot. Many restrictions from the Water Police because of the stream and the lot is considered non build-able because of the streams proximity. You need to be 350 ft from the stream to install a septic system. The only thing I've ever used the property for is to hunt and swim. As a kid it was my Military training ground. Many hours spent waging war with the neighborhood kids. I truly never though I'd see the day that my neighbor would allow his land to be logged but seeing how that's what they've decided I've been presented with a unique opportunity to harvest the timber. This is a one time opportunity, Do it now or its probably never going to happen based on the geography and rules/laws in my area. They pretty much took everything 12" and bigger off the the neighbors 100 acre lot so I really don't see any logging being done on that property again. At least not in my life time.

Over the past several years we've been hit with some very big Hurricanes/Tropical storms that did a number on my trees. Sure you all heard about it on the news. We lost several big hemlocks on the top of the bank that in turn took down a bunch of smaller Red Oak's and a bunch of Ash. It was a mess and very costly to clean up. Everything needed to be cabled out up a bank and through the front lot. I really don't want that to happen again so thinning things out does make sense.

I'm going to take some pictures today and hopefully post them up this evening.

Thanks again for the responses. You guy's are awesome.

petefrom bearswamp · July 12, 2014, 11:19:57 AM

Looking forward to the pics.
Another thought, I am opening bids on my Red Oak timber in Steuben County on Wednesday.
This will give a pretty good handle as to what buyers will pay Doyle rule.
It is nice clean oak, but on the small side