Thought i would put up a few more pics of how I make legs fit on rustic benches.
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radial drill press with adjustable table to make compound matching holes for legs. One setting will get two opposite corners, then tilt the head the other way to do the final two corners
i make most of my benches 16 inches tall, so I have a right angle 16" tall jig to help guide the pull saw.
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trimming the legs in one plane
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some of my first benches were a little cockeyed. i use tenon cutters i got from lee valley and use a forstner bit to drill matching angled holes. since the seat and 4 sides are square to each other, and the seat goes down on the drill press bed, they turn out pretty good.
Great work, design and craftsmanship. Thanks for sharing!!!
I make the legs using a tenon cutter and a half inch drill after putting them in a vice. I angle 1-1/2" mortises using a spade bit in my drill, drive the legs in from the bottom and cut the excess length off with a Japanese pull saw with set on one side. I usually use 2" LE planks now for benches. Plenty strong and light enough to move around - I tried 4" and was too heavy. Then I put the bench upside down on my mill, clamp it good, spread the band wide,set the height to 17" and make one pass cutting all four (Sometimes 5 if a sharp curve makes the bench off balance) legs at one pass so they are all the same height and same angle. They fit level on a flat surface.
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Apply glue and drive legs in from bottom
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Then I saw the excess inch or so off with a J. pull saw so it is flush with the top of the bench.
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Put bench upside down on mill, set to 17", one pass of the blade and finished.
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They set straight and level then.
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With sharp curves a 5th leg is needed to keep them from tilting backwards when you sit in the middle of the bench.
I also drive a steel wedge in the top of the leg to spread and hold it tight like an ax head on a handle.
great idea WV. a lot faster, I spend 1/2 hour my way.
Doc, fine work, nice setups. 2 questions: A) whose tenon cutter do you use (I am in the market), and 2) what glue do you use?
I bought a range of sizes 3/4 up to 2" 6 different ones. you get a discount for buying a set. It is nice to step down the tenon especially if starting square. i.e. 2 inch, then 1.5 inch, then 1.25 inch. I bought these from lee valley, a Canadian company. I have been happy with them. they have a screw to fasten the blade to the side of the body so it can be sharpened on a 2 inch sanding drum in a drill press or oscillating sander. I actually made a rig on the back of that radial drill press to hold a leg. spin the press around 180 ( head facing the back) use the tenon cutter in the press. It is easier to shut down in a hand held. they sell a rig to hold the log and drill like a sideways press. It is best to do this to green wood, but I am often doing it to dry wood. In benches, you don't want green leg material in a tenon cause it will be loose when it dries and shrinks. When I have stuff left over from a log, I cut a bunch of 2x2s and a size bigger and smaller. I have two 55 gallon barrels filled with these 8 foot long pieces waiting to be used for legs. Lee Valley (verritus)sp also has a lot of old fashion toys and reprints of old books that are fun and inexpensive.
Mine is a Lumberjack 1-1/2". I just bought the one size and not a whole set as benches were all I planned to make. I a well pleased with the quality. You do need a good high torque drill and a drill press or lathe would probably be better. You can break a wrist if you are not careful.
OG, I buy titebond 3 by the gallon. most of these "rustic" benches are nice enough people don't put them outside. The fit is adjustable so the glue just seals up the joint. But would be weatherproof if desired. I took a few more pics of the radial drill press, with a cutter chucked up and with a leg in the angle iron I fabbed to the back of the stand.
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Note the bracket and angle iron to hold a leg, press in the "forward" configuration.
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makes it more stable, easier to center tenon. there is a level to help when doing this free hand. i always rout the corners first to help center the tenon cutter. A bit of art. best on greener/wet wood. there is a set screw and an adjustment screw on the cutter so you can fine tune the size of the tenon for the hole. also built in area to put the blade for sharpening on a 2 inch radius drum sander.
Here are some closer shots of the cutters. these make a curved shoulder and I use a corresponding forstner bit
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you can see the cutter in the first two left to right, the level for hand drill horizontal in the 3rd, the curve in the side with a holding screw for sharpening on a drum sander or drill press mounted 2 inch drum on # 4
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tops
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bottom
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adjustment and set screw mechanism
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side grove to hold blade for sharpening. body sets flat on oscillating sander or drill press holding the blade to sharpen
Thanks Doc. I was on the Lee valley site a couple of days ago and could not find any tenon cutters. These are a little pricey for me given the amount of use they would get, but I like your idea of progressive sizing. 1-1/2 was my goal. Just a few benches for around here and my neighbor's place and his fire pit, so they might stay out in the weather. Right now he has some benches I whipped up from slabs and log ends, pretty rough and quick. I have to check my tool crib and see if I still have that 1/2 inch, 1/2 HP hand drill. That's a beast and should work, then I need to make some kind of holding jig.
You make some pretty stuff.
I like the idea of incrementally reducing the size tenon cutter till you get to the target size. Since I only have the one size I use a draw knife to knock the corners off and reduce the amount of starting wood. They turn a lot easier green but like Doc said, using dry wood for legs is better for the shrinkage. I have read if the bench green and the leg is dry the drying bench will even help tighten on the leg. The shrinkage is why I use the wedges.
I found power tenon cutters on LeeValley Veritas site. But the 6 tenon set is now 600 $ instead of 300 i paid 10 years ago. I agree you can find other ways to get the diam. in the ball park like a drawknife or router
Thanks Doc, yeah, after I saw your previous post I went back and did a direct search and found them. I especially like the way those are 'tweakable' for size refinements, but they are pricey. There are other brands USA made that I will probably try. I need to generate some hobby cash first. I see so much stuff I want to try and learn myself to do, that I can't do it all, yet. Too many irons in the fire, my Dad used to say, pick one and work it til it's cold, then move on to the next. My neighbor, bless his heart, says he doesn't understand why I spend my free time working my butt off. I tell him 2 things 1) Time isn't free, and 2) I am not working, I am playing very hard.
Sorry I didn't reply last night, I am going through a pretty depressive period and tough times at work. I was in bed around 7:30 last night. Just can't seem to get or stay motivated.
Today is a new day right?
No worries. I was just glad I had not sent you to a dead end. I work my last scheduled shift today at The Childrens Hospital E.D. (I can work as needed) to be closer to home. You do what ever you need to do, we are all here for you.
I kept asking questions about a meeting they wanted to have before my last shift, so I feel bad but figured out they are having a going away party. It will be hard since we are like a family.
latest bench last night
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blue stained pine seat, 11 x 19 inches.
ah, you do nice work. It must be nice to have a solid backup skill in case that 'Physician thing' doesn't work out. smiley_smash lol lol
It helps me so I do not yell at work. maintains my current level of sanity, what ever that is!
smiley_clapping smiley_blue_bounce smiley_bounce smiley_turkey_dancing 8)
Doc,
I can certify being sane is not a requirement for membership here. In fact it could be a disadvantage at times. pc_smiley think_not electricuted-smiley air_plane
Hey Doc those are some nice benches.
Doc
You do nice work! I like the look of the log, a nice change from slab. Also the drill press is pretty slick! Nice rig and jigs.
OK you guys have blown so much smoke up my asthma, so I finally got this one done. it is for the CMO/ER doc at the hospital who's baby had an ACL tear, and cannot get up on the bed with her.
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made out of pine to match their furniture, 16 x 19 inches to be stable, 13 inches tall to be 1/2 the height of the bed. This is my third dog step. the ones on line tend to be 4 inch steps with 3 steps to get up on a bed. Not really designed for dogs. I have the friend measure the bed. just in case anyone was wondering!
OK Doc, you got me good on that one! When you said 'baby', I am thinking infant, as in human and then I am trying to figure out A) how does and infant get an ACL tear, and 2) Why is a parent letting an infant attempt to climb on on the bed instead of carrying said infant to a safe place on the bed, and C) how is it that an infant is even ambulatory enough to attempt such a thing.
Then I figured it out. No, the paw prints were not my first clue (shamefully). But your explanation was. And no, I didn't raise an eyebrow at how you knew the bed height, it was a simple question to ask and get an answer.
I could say I feel stupid, but I had too much fun laughing at myself. You should too. Babies climbing up on beds, imagine the picture in my head. :D :D
well OG, I kinda did that on purpose, and we always enjoy a good laugh. Of course she is my age, and her humans are all in college, so that is how she refers to her boxer. The hard part is training the dog to put her paw on the ink pad and then on the board, then back on the ink pad, then back on the board. hard to keep them organized enough to make a cute pattern, but then they get bored and run around the house. I will be in so much trouble when my wife gets home. hahaha. running-doggy oz_smiley laugh_at smiley_beertoast
...so I used the laser engraver instead... for the paw pattern!
Thanks for sharing your techniques. :)
What I've always done Doc, to make the legs all even and the base of them to all sit flush is sit it upright on a flat surface, like the table saw and scribe the cut around the leg and then use a very thin kerf Japanese saw to make the cuts. Last chair I made was a fiddle back with the back legs angled back some. Scribed and cut flush. Noth'n to it. :)
Always nice to have a drill press around. Came it real handy for making wooden ratchet handles for the loom. A big chunk of 8/4 maple, lathed round. Centre mortied out square with attachment for drill press. Then drill the holes for the handles around the circumference on a bent angle. Works like a charm.
Trying to decide if that is footloose, da udder foot is in da mouth, ihop, or, high steppin'. ;D
Why did you feel compelled to indicate you had someone else measure the bed? :D
Very nice job and very thoughtful, or great suck up job to the CMO! ;D
All kidding aside you did a wonderful job and thing here.
Quote from: samandothers on February 12, 2019, 11:44:32 AM
Why did you feel compelled to indicate you had someone else measure the bed? :D
Very nice job and very thoughtful, or great suck up job to the CMO! ;D
All kidding aside you did a wonderful job and thing here.
Good point. A few know, but my last day at that hospital is past, and I have taken over at a regional Hospital 3 minutes from my house. I know you were kidding, but it does come to mind.!!! smiley_heh_heh Thanks for all the kind reviews and ideas
Over at a buddy's house and saw the bench I helped his son make his mom for Christmas a few years back. locust wood, no thorns. nice long bench with all the kids names including one they lost close to term. thin slab with bark on the bottom, very dense wood, no flex when you sit.
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this thing is over 4 feet long. heavy as heck and looks great. Jim is x-navy, friend I brew beer with occ.
Awesome Doc. :)
Congratulations on scoring the new hospital job closer to home! Speaks highly of your abilities!
The locust really looks nice. It is pretty wood. Around SW Va we have black locust but few of my trees get to a size for a bench with out some issue.
Hey @doc henderson (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) I just came back to this thread for reference. I may not be fast, but I do follow up.... eventually. We have new neighbors I just met today, 30 somethings, nice kids. They are working their butts off to clean their place up and make it nice. Flowers, quartz stone paths, fire pit area, and anything they can do that requires supplies from Home Depot. :D ;D
Anyway, nice to see youngsters work so hard and I thought I would make something for them. They could use some small table by their fire pit or on their deck and those slabs I cut up yesterday would work well I think. So I ordered a lumberjack 1-1/2" tenon cutter and a forstner bit. I am wondering how you pick your drill angles? I am thinking something in the 5 degree range in the X and Y axis?
Anyway, pictures to follow in a few weeks. I hope they are not as ugly as my work bench.
about 10 to 13 degrees is what I use for benches. if it is a narrow 8 inch seat I splay wider, if it is wider and more stable i go less. for an end table you could also do a mass base with a petit top with a single post up the middle. depends on the degree of rustic-nationish- tolerance. (made up word). i try to stay at least 1 inch from the edges.
Well @doc henderson (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) , here I am studying back on this thread again. All your (bench) legs look so uniform and that style appealed to me. Last night I wasted my evening trying to salvage a decent piece of WO to no avail, it's on the burn pile now. I will start again with a fresh maple log tonight if allowed. SO I am going to take pretty much the whole log and cut it into leg stock. My (new) question: what is your cross-sectional size? It looks like 2-1/2 square, but could be 3". I'll see how the log looks but maybe I will make both sizes. Then I will set up the drill press to do a better job on the tenons.
@Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) . I like the drill press but also just clamp some to may table saw bed and fence and use a dewalt 18 v drill by hand. mine have the level. cutting tenons in green wood comes off in big shavings (better) and very dry wood is a little more "chattery" (made up word). If planning well in advance a guy could cut the tenon a size bigger and let it dry, then do the final size. My standard stock is 2 to 2.5 inches square. It depends on the seat dimensions and what looks good. I have a few benches around the shop that I use for reference. I have considered, if wood is about to rip my arms off, soaking the tenon in water to help with smooth cutting. Glad you are having a good time. 8) 8) 8)
ps there are some other ideas online video's if interested. I got a few ideas there.
Thanks Doc, baby steps right now. When I set up the drill press I will get a photo. I think you will like what I have in mind, (assuming it works at all) but it will require uniform size for each leg of a given size group. For me, the legs seem like the PITA part of the job (next to final sizing, leveling), so I think I might just make up a mess of them in one shot, like you do, so I can just use them as needed. I can leave them in the shed to dry somewhat. Not even sure what the MC is on that log I was gonna mill tonight. I cut it back in the fall, so it's probably still high. If'n I mill them at 2-1/2" I could take them down to 2" later if needed for style points, or if I wanted to make short stiles (see what I did there?). ;D :D
Edit to add: Yes, I know there are lots of neat ideas out there, it boggles the mind. I am trying not to think about them just yet. I need to get the basic process of making a top, making legs, putting them together, and finishing it off. I have never been a good woodworker because I am impatient. I need to work on my zen a lot more.
made a bench for a guy at work. he is the one clearing his land and cutting ERC for me. made him some trim. and his son (grandson) loves cows @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) so made him a bench. 18 inches by 8 inches, 12 inches tall.
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That is nice!!
Excellent! Nice work. :)
I betcha they will enjoy that.
Sean is post military, now going full time with us as a PA. He has been part time for 4 years. He is close to 50, just bought 90 acres that no one had maintained for 30 years. he want to plant trees so is taking out cedars. his son is 3 (adopted from within his family) he loves cows. the bench should be his size in terms of sitting and moving it.
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here is a whack of ERC. he thought he would have another 6 of these, but now he says he grossly underestimated the volume and it will be much more. I go to get my pallets done!
Your red cedar down there is like us with balsam fir. Grows back like weeds by the time you make a circle. :D 50 years is a 20" diameter log on good ground. I have been burning some fir in with other stuff the last two years. Never run out of fir growing back. :D Heck the stuff will grow under maple, aspen, or spruce, you cut that off and your next woods is fir.
Leg trims: I simply place the finished item upright on a flat surface and lay a pencil flat towards the sides of the legs and draw a cut line. If needed I use a piece of wood to make the pencil line catch the shortest leg of the group. Then I mostly use the same saw doc shows in his picture and cut to the line.
Achieves the same thing as the "doc jig" seen in picture to mark legs for equalization.
I just turn my bench upside down on my mill, clamp it securely, set the blade height (Normally I use 17"), set the blade guides wide, engage and make one pass. All legs are cut exactly the same height and angle. No fuss, no muss (Whatever muss is).
was not sure where to put this. I have been trying to finish up a few projects in my shop. had made this blue stain pine bench quite a while ago. I sat a spray bottle with denatured alcohol on it, and got this weird green discoloration. two passes on the jointer did not take it out. so i hit it x2 with wood bleach. i hesitated cause i did not want a bland spot devoid of not only the green spot, but also the blue stain and some darkness to the grain. so the green spot did fade, but the grain and blue stain remained. i can see it, can you?
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fairly well centered in the pic. I can live with that. It has stopped me from finishing this bench for months!
looked back and found this bench... made on 2-11-2019. i really did not like the green stain, and was worried the fix might ruin the look of the bench.
Could always pine tar it. ;D ;)
found a flitch I saved a few years ago to make a bench. thought it might be walnut as it was dark. has been outside on a stack for a couple years. nope it is yellow, not brown inside. after all this time and no special care, about a eighth of brown then yellow. it is Mulberry.
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had some oak leg stock. jointed 2 sides, planed the opposite sides, routed the edges 1/2 inch round over bit, 1.25 inch tenon.
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so now we will see if the yellow oxidizes and turns brown from the sun. i assume the sugar is all gone after sitting for 2 years. no yellow marker for me, too big. i will try to get spar urethane on it tomorrow. does anyone know any more details about mulberry and the color change? @GeneWengert-WoodDoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20498) @WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) @tule peak timber (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=25190)
I suspect that it is inevitable.
Certainly a nice build you are posting. I have very little experience with Mulberry out in this neck of the woods.Have you ever messed with wood bleaches, the two part or oxalic acid? You can get a small 2 part kit from any marine supply place, just make sure to wear gloves ! Rob
Quote from: WDH on September 11, 2020, 07:55:15 PM
I suspect that it is inevitable.
I agree, but a couple of things can slow it. I shoot a lot of Sherwin Williams CAB Lacquer and it has UV inhibitor added.
I have a friend that does museum quality wood turnings from colored tropical woods. She uses oil finishes topped with
suntan lotion. I'm not privileged to the exact recipe. :D
Hedge also has the same yellow color when fresh. both will brown within hours to days. just wondering about the chemistry, and therefore how to slow it. As mentioned, I can finish ERC purple with spar uv inhibiting urethane, and it still slowly turns brown. thanks guys. @Larry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=125) what kind of swim suit does your lady friend wear as she does the finishing and turning?... smiley_gorgeous thumbs-up :o :D :D :D
a little spar urethane today. I extended a crack from the outer wood, when I was trying to turn a leg in the mortice to get it straight. It is easier to align them with two legs in and use a straight edge. I use a pipe wrench to turn it, as my tenons are tight. you only have a few minutes before the glue turns from lube to sticky. so I glued that crack.
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this is a satin finish but photographed wet for effect. you can see the grain soaking it up. wanting to see if the 2 year old bench blank will retain its color with uv stable urethane. Mulberry.
So pretty!
The crack would have happened anyway in that grain pattern. I've seen it happen many times in maple where the end of a plank had that grain pattern.
Nice bench. :)
you are prob. right SD on the crack. but the 2 foot pipe wrench I used trying to turn the leg in line did not help! 8)
Quote from: doc henderson on September 12, 2020, 09:41:59 AM
Hedge also has the same yellow color when fresh. both will brown within hours to days. just wondering about the chemistry, and therefore how to slow it. As mentioned, I can finish ERC purple with spar uv inhibiting urethane, and it still slowly turns brown. thanks guys. @Larry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=125) what kind of swim suit does your lady friend wear as she does the finishing and turning?... smiley_gorgeous thumbs-up :o :D :D :D
I've made my kitchen island stools from KS hedge wood(Osage Orange to me) and one large Appalachian style /hickory bark rocking chair. Once finished with WATCO Danish oil or WATCO Poly Wipe it slows down but still darkens. I made a small violin shaped stool years ago and it's very dark ~25-30+ years later. Same for a LR table lamp I turned from a Shawnee Co corner post-very dark!
FWIW that wood came from a circle mill nearby to Lake Perry, KS where the man(no doubt he's gone now) cut lots of it for mostly stock trailer flooring.
Sassafras looks a bit like Mulberry butr sometimes has a greenish tint.
ERC when finished with lacquer stays reddish a long time, same with poly coats.
my nephew Tucker is coming home from Georgia, and brining the kids. we have met one and not the other. working on a welcome gift for the great nephew and niece.
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Doc, do you save and dry the slab wood from milling to make benches? YOu may have addressed that earlier in the thread, but I didn't read it all. Now that I have a tenon cutter and see these benches, I guess I have a use for what I normally burn.
yes. as you know some flitches come off thick and thin and out of round, getting to the cant. If you see one in the pile after sawing the looks like it is fairly symmetric, and even, put it in the shop. after a while you will look at them and see "benches". the trouble is if you start to see benches in every chunk of firewood. it is good to have dry leg stock as well. so if you get to the bottom of a cant, and are left with a 1.5 inch board, cut it up for legs. for these two I had some cedar stock I had planed square for poss. use in a eagle scout walking stick. made it into legs. If leg stock is wet, it may loosen the tenon later as it dries. a wet seat (on the bench :o) and dry legs will tighten over time. I do not like to go through the bench seat as it can have blow out around the edges, and I feel a solid top surface will help shed water. and what ever you do, do not trim the legs all at once on your sawmill. :D :D :D ;) ;) ;) @WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) . we all have our ways, and I have learned a lot from everyone here. If it makes you feel better, I made 1 inch tenons on the legs, and grabbed the forstner bit in the 1 inch slot, and made the seat mortices. it was 1 & 1/8 inch. so I re-drilled them up to 1 & 1/4 and cut the tenons off and redid them at 1 & also. my great niece and nephew will never know. :) I made standards for cutting legs for 8 and 10 inch bench height overall so will have that in the future. I glue the tenons with titebond 3 and have never had a loose leg. I broke one once as it was on the out feed side of the planer and I had dropped the table, and it broke off a leg as the board came out. after milling walnut, I saw all kinds of benches, but was trying to clean up the pile. so I cut them into bench/stool seat blanks and put them on a pallet. I like to follow the curves so the ends are symmetric in size and shape. the best you can in nature. so you are lucky to have only one cutter so you do not mismatch them. I used to always do a test fit in scrap, but thought I had out grown that. good luck with your wet seats and broken legs
Doc,
I resemble that remark. >:( :D How do you know I don't use my through and through mortises so moisture can seep in and swell and tighten the tenons (Actually I just thought of that as an explanation and I may use that more in the future. ;)). And I stand by my use of my sawmill to cut all the legs at the same time. It is the most consistent and fastest way I know and have to cut the same height and angle. But to each his own - I am a rough carpenter and don't have the equipment, shop and skills many of you guys do so I muddle through as best I can.
I just like to poke the bear! your stuff is great. these are stools for a 1 and 5 y/o, so very small and a soft wood to clamp on the mill. I have some 8 foot oak and catalpa benches in que that I promise will go on the mill. I had to much tear out with the through stuff, but will use a backing board if I do it in the future. putting the last finish on this am, and will pass them on this afternoon. I have made several things for the nieces kids who live nearby, but the first for my nephews kids, as they live in another state. here are a few more pics.
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In the warmer to speed up curing the finish. can recoat about every 30 minutes.
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I removed the loose ERC bark but stopped at what is inner bark or cambium. cleaner and more interesting than sapwood on the bottom
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close up of my "non-through" tenon
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Well, from now on I will start saving some of that stuff. Mom and dad are still going to get plenty of firewood from me, but I cringe sometimes throwing stuff away that could be used for something like this. Once you get a system of producing these, they won't take a lot of time to build, unless I want to laser the seats. I have a friend out in California who is always making benches and I have seen him put them on his LT15 upside down to level the legs. I think I will go against Doc's advice and use the mill.
i think it will work well for a full size bench. these little stools are 7.5 x 14.5, and nt much purchase. there are various levels of rustic, and I do nt want to mar the edge. It took me about 2 hours for the two stools. that include having to resize the tenons and mortices. I had them almost done with 3 coats of finish. i mentioned her name to my son, who said i think it is Cambrie not Cambridge. I said no, I asked uncle (grandpa to Cambrie) Eric and he even spelled it for me twice in a text... yes you guessed it, auto correct dictating text. so one pass over the magic eraser (jointer) and re engrave, and a couple coats of urethane. sorry Cambrie. Uncle Eric is sorry too and will have a beer waiting for me when we get there.
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after the jonter and sanded and back in the laser.
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two coats of urethane and back in the warmer
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my arsenal of jigs to cut the legs from 8 to 16 inch, ... so I do not have to do them on the sawmill. :D :D :D better for the teeny stools I think. If you do them by hand and they are not even, it is easy to get turned around when you flip them to sand a little off the leg. I either flip holding on to the longer 2 legs, and or leave some saw dust on the table saw, and with some semi dry urethane, it will show the spots that are touching.
Now you guys are getting my interest, so I have an old wood lathe that mostly use for making replacement knots, turn them a little tapered so drive them into the knothole, after cleaning out the bark, and gluing then drive them in tight and saw them off. Looks better to have a wood knot than bondo, but think it would work to make legs for stools. Don't have a radial drill press, will have to work out a way of drilling holes on angle.
you can eyeball the legs and use a hand drill. you can make a compound bed for your drill press. the lathe would work well in that the tenon will follow the line of the leg. I work hard to make my mortices all even, but a little angle on the tenon and it is out of wack. if I am thinking, I can turn it and make it fit. my first benches look whimsical with legs at all diff. angels, some even the opposite of what I intended. I do glam-rustic, so not as rough as they could be. I have made dozens for kids, and I try to make the stools kid proof. you can check your drill press. some allow the bed to tip down in front. you are halfway there. i do about 13° angles in both directions. so if you can tip the bed forward, you can leave it there. then make a jig/accessory bed at 13° that can be moved side to side (to reverse the angle). I rarely if ever change the front angle. and you can make you side to side be adjustable. Mine is easy to change the front angle and the side to side, but now that I have establish the angle, I stick with it.
I plan to try the octagonal legs some time, especially for thicker legs. many of mine are 1.5 to 2 inches square with 1/8th in round over edges. :o :D 8) @WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103)
Doc,
I am not sure what you mean by 1.5-2 inch round over edges.
I have about landed on 2.25" X 2.25" leg stock and I knock the corners off on the table saw with an angled blade. They don't have to be a perfect octagon just knock the corners off. They fit very well in the tenon cutter and are very comparable to round stock IMHO.
Quote from: doc henderson on April 20, 2021, 11:49:17 AM
I plan to try the octagonal legs some time, especially for thicker legs. many of mine are 1.5 to 2 inches square with 1/8th in round over edges. :o :D 8) @WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103)
you left out the word square! :)
these are mostly 1 seater stools. I go up to 3 inch for benches.
@farmfromkansas (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36643) here is a video I made for Howard about a year ago, it is somewhere else on the forum but I couldn't find it. ;D Anyway, there are lots of ways to do these. Try not to over think it unless you are a pediatric ER Doc in need of a distraction. :D :)
[edit to add:] sorry forgot the video:
Drilling angled holes through a log slab with a short tip Forestener bit to get the angle you want. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_c4e6Mtowk)
my latest bench. it is a 36 inch by 11 inch bench out of ERC. it is from a slab we milled at Camp Alaska 2 years ago. 7% MC. 2 inch square legs, hit with a 1/2 inch radius round over bit. tenons at 1.25 inch. I later thought 1.5 inch might have been better/stronger. for our outgoing scoutmaster of Troop !. I am the new scoutmaster. I have made benches for the past 3 scoutmasters.
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That one is especially nice.
A story with no pictures. Back in the day there was a group of gentlemen, and a couple of ladies, that would circle around a gas station/store owned by one of us. The gentlemen were mostly hefty. The owner wanted a bench built for the front of the station..... so, I built an 8 foot backed bench out of 2x12's, the back being a single 2x12. The build was heavy to keep the bench from walking off.
Anyway, the group became known as the Buddha Belly Bunch, and the bench as the Buddha Belly Bench. I carved the first names of the Bunch on the front of the back board, the ladies of the group had some concerns about adding their name to the Buddha Belly Bench, so their names were added to the back of the Bench. The back was not visible, so they were happy, until they noticed their names in full view thru the glass from inside the store.
i think it will mean a lot to the out going scoutmaster. he teared up a bit on his last night as he stated he is most proud of his "dad of an eagle scout" pin. i spoke at his sons ceremony. He is very busy with a business (Amish restaurant) and he and his son are pilots. here is the color with a second coat of spar urethane.
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I had to give up personal woodworking projects when I took over as Scoutmaster. The role just took all of my time and energy. In fact, that's the biggest reason I stepped away from the FF for so long.
Hopefully, doc, you have better time management than me.
I will say the seven years I spent scoutmaster (18 years total in scouting) was the best thing I had ever done.
It sounds like you have a great troop. Good luck and congratulations!
OK so sawdust Jimmy wanted to make a bench for a 80+ y/o friend of his now passed MIL. Carolyn is small and likes to take her cats for a walk every day. She found some crazy slab Esty Pinterest deal and asked if Jimmy could make it. I am like, "why make silly slab legs". we had an elm log that was cracked but pretty solid.
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so two seats and some leg/rolling pin material
i made square leg stock, and cut a seat to 42" standard combined old lady and cat butt size.
i used the tenon cutters and took the 2.5 inch legs down and with all the moisture, some of the shavings were continuous, like 30 feet long.
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"Goot un smooth once" as they say in the Vulga German community of Fort Hays, Ks. smiley_beertoast
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My dog Libby trying to stop me from this crazy idea i had to trim the legs on the sawmill. but it was no use!
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leg angle the same. I am depending on the elm in the background to stop the bench from hitting the building in the background if it flies off the mill, as this has never been tried before!!! at my house.
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a cushion in front and back as to not damage the rustic glam bench. I checked to make sure it was tight. and it was.
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the legs are big but sturdy, and this has my "pediatric leg angle" of 13° compound for stability. 16 inch tall bench is standard everywhere but West Virginia. (the last of that is pronounced Virgin long I and long A).
OK Howard I did it. I did not do through tenons but I could if I wanted to. I will use this again especially for benches over 3 feet and big and heavy.
Sawdust Jimmy is looking happy with your work . . . teamwork !
Lovin' the elm grain in the leg tenons. Did you use Epoxy to set them?
tight bond 3. I drive them in with a 3# dead blow hammer. I use the next size smaller tenon cutter to put a chamfer on the end of the tenon so I do not have to fight it. I use a strait edge on each end to be sure the flat sides of the legs are in plane with each other and the end of the bench. i have a large pipe wrench of 2 foot adjustable wrench ready, as after they are driven in, you need some torque. I try to get them close as I drive them in. you can apply force to turn them as you drive them in, but not after they are seated (no pun origionally intended) home. :)
Sounds a bit like orthopœdic work. 😉
The little old gal and her kittie will never realize the know-how and equipment it takes to make that.
Well done you two!
he put some oil on it and will send a pic in am. It Pops
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room for a half dozen kitties. not bad for 80 y/o.
A lovely lady on a lovely bench. If she gets bored she can grab that cultivator by the tree and get a little work done.
I guess she does stuff like that. Jimmy helped her buy a new lawn mower cause the old one was leaking and not wanting to start, and she still mows her own yard. she does gardening and Jimmy cringes when she climbs up a little retaining wall. :o :o :o
Making a mental note concerning the Henderson Bench Jig (TM). I should make one before christmas if I only find the time.
Every stool or bench I ever made (I sold lots of them, given away, so on) has a through, round tenon, turned on a wood lathe, then split strategically on the bandsaw, for a wedge to be driven from the top, extended portion of the tenon, above the top. I saw off the waste by hand, after glue has cured using a typical small handsaw made for that purpose with teeth set away from the cut. I drill the holes mostly by hand using a chunk of 2" thick maple, with a hole at my angle of choice. Sometimes I'll use a drill press but like the flexibility of doing them off the press.
I do have a LogMan tenon cutter device which cuts the tenons via a router bit but only use that for "log" material such as log beds.
I like the look of the wedged tenons what with a wood wedge that offers contrasting color, plus helps to tighten the joint. I use Titebond III on dark woods and Titebond II (it's cheaper and very strong!) on light color woods. Mostly I use either Osage Orange/hedge wood, Maple or walnut for wedges. I've never had on come loose, which speaks well for them. I use that same detail when I attach my rocking chair arms to the two front posts but the rest of the chair has closed tenons.
I've made big benches, coffee tables, three leg, four legs and all shapes of tops all with wedged round tenons. Just my personal choice though as the other way looks great. I've used lots of inset butterfly crack holders and have the commercial plex pattern gizmos. A few I've cut from my own pattern. I do artistic woodburning sometimes on the front of a small drawer, etc., but have never gone to a puterized device as I enjoy using my "art brain" for some variety in a project. When I ever get around to making some of these Charcuterie boards I may wood burn on them. I often use dogwood blossoms, and other simple flowers, ivy vines, grapes and leafs, etc. for embellishments on corners.
I like the look of the wedge in a through tenon. but despite a backer board, at the angle I am drilling, where the Forstner bit come out on one side first I get some rough edges. I have also done the blind wedges for a loose tenon that drives in as I place the leg tenon in a blind hole. have to do your math. :)
I cheat and just use a metal sledge hammer type wedge when needed. I now drive it in parallel to the end vs to the sides because I found if I drove it in parallel to the sides I sometimes split the wood to the end as that appears to be the weak spot.
Wooden wedges look better but require the extra step of pre-sawing the tenon while the metal wedges can be added after the tenon is in place and the excess length has been sawed off.
I guess if you do not like the look of the metal showing you could contersink them 1/4" or so and fill the gap with putty or wood.
Quote from: doc henderson on October 18, 2022, 11:01:20 AM
I like the look of the wedge in a through tenon. but despite a backer board, at the angle I am drilling, where the Forstner bit come out on one side first I get some rough edges. I have also done the blind wedges for a loose tenon that drives in as I place the leg tenon in a blind hole. have to do your math. :)
I simply clamp a sacrificial block of wood tightly to the seen, top side of the hole spot, then use forstner bits. Rarely does a bugger show up using that technique. My wood wedges are turned to be perpendicular to the corner apex of the bench/stool top. I use a wood mallet to drive/peck mine in with glue as a lube on them. My kids homes have all got my benches. Craft shows my main item was stools, cutting boards and weed pots from scraps. Bigger ticket items don't sell to people w/o money.
On a tool handle I also use a wood wedge followed by the steel type, two if needed.
Thanks. I have used backer boards, but never clamped them. I considered drilling from the good side as the chipped area is usually at the exit. the problem is I use the flat top as a reference, so all the legs have the same angle.
I use backers all the time for those thru holes. The angle assurers the breakout will be ugly without a backer. I alternate with clamps. If it's a good flat 'face to face' presentation I might skip the clamp, but if it is even a little questionable, I use a clamp to be sure.
Quote from: doc henderson on October 18, 2022, 11:01:20 AM
I like the look of the wedge in a through tenon. but despite a backer board, at the angle I am drilling, where the Forstner bit come out on one side first I get some rough edges. I have also done the blind wedges for a loose tenon that drives in as I place the leg tenon in a blind hole. have to do your math. :)
On higher paying projects I use copper/bronze wedges for split splines, tenons, sometimes with patina. Depends on the customer
do you source, or make the soft metal wedges?
Quote from: doc henderson on October 19, 2022, 08:58:20 AM
Thanks. I have used backer boards, but never clamped them. I considered drilling from the good side as the chipped area is usually at the exit. the problem is I use the flat top as a reference, so all the legs have the same angle.
After I thought about it- Mostly I clamp my angled, pre-drilled hole gizmo to the tops and drill away and a few chip outs underneath are acceptable. You can also clamp the waste piece underneath if trying for perfection. It's a very old technique at that to prevent chip outs in wood.
I must say I've never heard of brass or bronze wedges in wood no matter how deep the pockets of a buyer? I've spent many hours in Smithsonian studing furniture and some other smaller museums, never saw a metal wedge in furniture? New one for me.
I buy copper, brass, and some bronze from Onlinemetals, every time they have a deep discount sale, bars, plate, shapes etc. I also use a lot of atomized metal. The larger furniture pieces are under non-disclosure so I can't show finished pics. But I can share a little trick that I use for slab joinery all the time. It works well in bar tops and some tabletops, particularly in end-to-end grain (butterfly match). I generate 4' long sticks of walnut in the shape of the largest Festool dominos. I slot each end on the table saw and insert copper plate with epoxy. I then grind off to a bullnose and cut it off an inch or so long, repeating the process over and over on the sticks, generating a pile of what appear to be copper split walnut tenons. It is a simple matter of punching a hole with the Festool domino machine and gluing in one of my faux tenons, standing slightly proud of the hole. I want to point out that there are many places that faux exposed joinery is applicable; very attractive, raises the price on a product and makes the customer feel special. This can also carry over into entry door building. You just need to size up the joinery.
Grinding soft metals into wedges for real joinery is a PITA.
I've been posting about the use of copper and brass tenons here for years; mostly on the inside of doors and gates. I'm also a big advocate of using metal in the wood, usually subset along with rove and rivet for attachment. In atomized metal I do inlay that makes coloured epoxy look like kids stuff, LOL. In my humble opinion if you can combine wood, metal and stone, you're going to make money.
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She really likes her bench. Worried about it getting rained on...!!!
We got sawdust Jimmy on the forum! 8) 8) 8)
Yes, he is posting!!!
What's your wood working equipment?
So, a couple of benches we shipped this morning; a pair of hobbit like coastal live oak slab benches, hard wax oil finish. The second photo is of Tony, my shop foreman and a designer who just flew in from Italy. She commissioned this small, simplistic, cube stool for an auction at a museum tomorrow. Her designs are typically spartan and modernistic but very demanding on finish and execution. She is great to work with and the projects she is involved in are very high end one of a kind, world wide. I'm lucky to be able to work for her.
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love the finish! thanks again for putting that in my wheelhouse.
Was honored and proud to find out that the little bench made 3500 bucks for the museum !
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Wow ! You should be.
Well 2 years ago I made a cherry bench with blind spline waterfall joints. For the last month I have been on a bench kick again and I have 4 benches or stools in work and a 5th getting started.
The first I am pretty much calling done.
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Photo was before current stage it has 3 coats of Danish oil and 3 coats of hand rubbed wax.
The second one is getting finished now (Tung Oil) but I didn't get a photo with the finish. It is shorter than the first.
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The third one is not a waterfall type, it is more like the ones the WOC posted at the top of this page, although I didn't notice that until this evening. I just made what I could get out of the wood. Again, this one also uses blind splines, just placed in square.
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That one is currently getting fillet epoxy pours the smooth the transition from the leg to the seat.
The 4th one is a stool, cherry seat with red oak legs machined in octagons. I had to sand on the tenons in order to get them pretty square and my lumberjack tenon cutter just doesn't do the job. This one is getting the second epoxy pours the put a nice fillet around the legs right now, tomorrow I sand and start finishing if I can get to it.
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The photo above is pre gluing and before I shaped the corners and such. That fillet pour was a challenge and always is on these legs because the tenon is undercut and getting the epoxy to form a nice fillet is a problem. Today I tried something different. I had these cheap squeeze bottles the wife got at a craft store and never used. Tricky to get them filled, but it worked quite well. Gotta get some more bottles because they are a one time use.
By the way, does anybody know what will cut and clean up pre-cured epoxy? I have a dickens of a time trying to clean tools after I do a pour. I use throw away containers almost all the time, but on big pours I sure would like to clan and reuse stuff, or get the drops off of accidental contacts with tools like squares and such. I think its a lost cause, but thought I would ask.
I use acetone, other things will cut it but acetone is friendlier to my skin. I know wear rubber gloves.
You can also dedicate sealed containers, partially filled with acetone, for your tools, brushes, etc. Epoxy requires a precise mixture so once you rinse your brushes a single time, then put them in more acetone, the epoxy will never cure. I'll use the same brush, squeegee, spreader, etc. for weeks by cleaning them just a little bit, then dumping them into a bath of acetone with a closed lid. I use enough acetone that we use rubber gloves with glove liners, otherwise you will eventually dry your skin out to the point the cracks will bleed. Plus, you must remember that your skin is simply another organ and acetone is water soluble, so it goes right into you; probably not the greatest thing in the world for your health. It's really weird but out here on the left coast, acetone is one thing I can still get in 5 gallon pails; $100+, so I try to use it smartly.
Well thanks guys, but if acetone is the solution I'll have to take a pass. Too many decades of working with that stuff before we knew what it was has done me in and I seem to be hypersensitive to it now. One whiff and I have a killer headache for 30 hours. Can't have it in the shop. Actually I am surprised I don't have cancer by now, between that stuff, the Trichlorethylene I nearly took baths in back in the 70's and the firefighting work, I am surprised I have gotten along this far. Dn't plan on pushing my luck any further. ;D :D
I'll just throw the stuff out, besides, most of it is plastic and will melt anyway.
I buy plastic quart mixing cups in a box of 100. I flex and pop out the epoxy and reuse till they are cracked.
Acetone is a VOC exempt solvent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VOC_exempt_solvent
I like to make my own jigs and fixtures. being Christmas time, i was looking at the Lumber jack tools site. I have thought about getting there dedicated clamp system and the sled for the hole Haug for doing tenons for my benches. I have a new in box Milwaukee drill. I have used my 18 V DeWalt for this, but feel it borders on abuse. so then I got a sale on the sled and a 10% off coupon. My parents passed away 15 years ago. and each of us three boys got about 20 K from my moms retirement fund. It is in a decedent's IRA and I have to take out so much each year. so each December (Christmas) I still get a gift from my parents. :new_year:
made charcuterie boards form a sentimental tree across the street. throwing in a bench for the grandson from the same tree.
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Bought myself a Lumberjack pro tenon cutter for Christmas.Got it yesterday with no instructions.Installed blades and tried it out before trying to find instructions on the internet.Pictures show results.Finally looked up instructions and properly adjusted blades by using cardboard box it came in as gauge as instructed.Worked better but still rough.Did some more research and found out best to use a lot of pressure and make sure drill stops turning before removal.Maybe play with it some more tomorrow.Really wanting to make a bench.
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Bill,
Be sure to round the corners off where they go in the tenon cutter. I used to use a drawknife but now I make the whole leg into an octagon by knocking the corners off on my tablesaw and they work almost as well as round stock.
Good luck and keep us posted how it works for you.
You are a better man than me Wlmedley! Good on ya! I would be tickled pink with those results. When I bought mine, the instructions came in the box but are not extremely helpful.
Tell us what wood you have there and how green it was. I use Howards octagon approach also, but do the chamfers on a table router, which is faster, safer, and gives a better finish with less sanding. Also make a very nice looking leg and I have always been a bit of a leg man. ;D I have a 5" belt sander that I spin the tenons on the clean them up and bring them down to the next size with a good fit. In fact, on that belt sander I can just sand the whole tenon in a minute or two.
Looks to me like you are off to a great start!
Tom,the first two pictures are hickory which was cut approximately 6 months ago.The last picture is pitch pine cut in the last month which may make a big difference.I don't have a table saw or router so I'll have to make due with a hand plane I guess.Tenon cutter I bought is 1 1/2" but after sanding tenon I'm afraid tenon will be more like 1 3/8 or 1 7/16 but I guess I can drill smaller holes.Will have to play with it awhile and see.
Question for some of you bench makers.After using 1 1/2" tenon cutter should I expect leg to fit an 1 1/2" hole cut with a forstner bit or do you normally cut hole 1 3/8" and then sand leg to fit.I ordered both size bits.Couldn't find any 1 7/16" bits.Bits are made by Freud and tenon cutter is a Lumberjack if that makes any difference.
I use the same tenon cutter you use I think. It is 1.5". I use a 1.5" auger to make the mortise. Mine are pretty snug but if they feel loose I use a metal sledgehammer wedge (I buy several pounds at a time from a handle maker in Arkansas) to tighten them. I do not sand my tenons and they may have a little rough/fuzzy finish but they don't show inside the mortise. :D
I have learned to drive the wedges in line with the long part of the bench instead of the sides because the distance between the edge of the mortise can be pretty thin and is more likely to crack/split if driven in parallel to the side.
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Here is a picture with the wedges before I learned to install them in line with the long side of the bench.
What I like about the metal wedges is you can add them after the tenon is installed and you do not need to cut a slot for them. If you don't like the look of the metal wedges you could countersink them 1/4" deeper then fill in the slot with putty made from wood glue and sawdust from your sander then sand it smooth once dry.
Thanks Howard, I saw some pictures that Doc posted and tenons looked pretty smooth and I thought maybe I had to sand them but you're right they won't be seen. I guess I should have took calipers and checked further down on tenon to see what it measured before ordering smaller bit along with 1 1/2"bit.
the tenon cutters are adjustable via a screw and set screw, or shims. I have the lee valley veritas and they are more expensive and work well. I have a stake pointer from lumberjack tools. it is not as smooth, but I am told they smooth out with proper adjustment and or shims. I have had great response to phone calls to LJ tools and have had issues resolved with the clamp and sled I decided to buy on sale. I would call them. new owners and a staff of about 8 people. I have my tenon cutters adjusted and they work smooth. I have used them for 7 years with an 18-volt handheld drill. My 1.5-inch tenon cutter fits into a 1.5-inch Forstner bit. I chamfer the tip with the next smaller tenon cutter, and I drive them in with a soft blow mallet, and then have to use a crescent or pipe wrench to twist them to get them straight. i.e., parallel to the end and sides of the seat. I never sand them, and I never cuss them.
medley, go back to post 79 (by my count, but I work back to front, so my number is usually off by 1) and look at that picture. that is with all the cylinders working, but I would accept very little less than that. I never have ridges to sand. It defeats the purpose of the tool to have to buy odd size bits to make it work and sand these things.
On the cleanup of epoxy: The pure orange oil cleaners will get it up. Back in the '80's, when I had a boat shop, a salesman came in one day selling gallons of pure orange oil cleaner.
There was some West Systems spilled on the floor from some job that hadn't kicked yet. I told him that if it would get that up, thinking no way it would, that I would buy a case. It cleaned it up easier than Acetone does, and I was fortunate that a case was only four gallons, but I ended up being glad that I had it many times.
I don't remember what it cost back then, but it's 70 bucks a gallon now:
Amazing Orange Multi-Purpose Citrus Solvent - Citrus Depot (https://citrusdepot.net/product/amazing-orange-multi-purpose-citrus-solvent/)
Bill,
I assume you are using your tenon cutter free hand in a big drill. That is what I do and what I attribute my less than perfect cuts to. I am pretty sure we would get much better cuts if we were using a big drill press or had the TC in a big lathe. I keep hoping someone will pay me to haul off his shop kept, perfectly intact ShopSmith tool ::) and I will see if that doesn't work much better. Yours are new but be sure to keep the blades sharp on the TC. I use my chainsaw sharpener (The hand held one that looks like a Dremel tool) with a small grinding stone to sharpen mine periodically.
Hickory May have not been the best wood to try out cutter.Cut a couple today on pine and they looked pretty good and I checked them with a caliper and they should fit pretty good in a 1 1/2" hole.Used a 1/2 drill with a side handle.Waiting on forstner bit to try my luck on a bench.Doc was using a 18v Dewalt drill to run his tenon cutter but I don't know what kind of wood.
If not here I know I have mentioned my low opinion of Forstner bits for this kind of work. I think they are great in a drill press drilling straight down but my legs are nearly always installed at an angle and I find it very difficult to drill them with a Forstner bit. I used to use a 1-1/2" spade bit till I got my 1-1/2" auger bit thar I like much better. Either one of them can be a wrist breaker when they break through on the bottom if you don't have a scrap board under them. A scrap board also helps prevent break out when the bit exits the bench top.
As you know Howard, that is why I do not bore through since my first couple of benches. the Forstner bits are good in a press, even at an angle less than 20°. I did some at 45° and it worked well enough, but a "bit" scary! :) I use my radial drill press with the angle adjustable bed. I think that is in this thread also. if not, I will give a link. most of my benches are at about 10 to 13° outward splay in both directions at each corner. i have some 3-legged ones and the single leg is only splayed out along the edge.
that was elm for the bench the Lady is seated on. post 84
OK may be off by one post but by my count, the pics of my tenon cutters is post #10, the tenon cuter in a press with an angle iron clamp post # 9 (not ever used any more), and the compound drill press (radial drill press with an adjustable bed) in post #1.
my cutters are removed and screwed to the side of the housing and sharpened on a 2-inch oscillating sander.
I leave the angles pretty much alone. I had a bench leg get caught up in a board coming out of the planer and break at the mortice. It was glued in, but made a new leg, placed the seat on the drill press and re-cut the mortice, and replaced the leg and you cannot tell it was replaced. it was ERC. leave the tenons as big as possible. I also step down-sizes and that helps with the tenons being smooth as well.
Doc thanks for the information.I think if I can get wood closer to size before cutting tenon cutter would work better.Hate to buy the next size up but that may be the answer.Also my brother in law has a pretty nice drill press.Thinking about taking a thick piece of hardwood up to his shop and drilling at your angles to use as a jig for drilling mortises with a hand held drill.Think that would work?
yes, it will help. that is what the example of the 45° angle was for. an eagle scout project for a pavilion with braces at an angle and the guide was to drill a relief so the nut and washer had a flat perch.
Doc,
I once dropped a bench and broke a leg where it entered the mortise. With the through and through mortise I just put a cut off sticker on top and rapped it with a mallet and drove it back out and replaced it with a new leg. I had just installed the leg and the glue was not dry. Another advantage of a through mortise. ;)
Made some bench legs today.Tenon cutter's working pretty good.Made 4 out of pine and 4 out of oak.18v Dewalt drill ran it okay with a good battery.Made a jig to guide drill at 10 degree angle both ways as Doc H recommended for mortise.Angle drilled a 2x4 which I think I can use as a guide also.Now to pick out a slab of wood that I don't mind messing up for my first try :'(
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Bill,
Those look real good. I do not use a jig to cut my mortises. I used to use a spade bit but I bought a 1.5" auger and love it.
Sometimes when I cut a tenon on a leg I don't get it perfectly straight/in line with the rest of the leg. When I use the leg that angle can cause the leg to "Splay" out too far or be too close under the bench itself. When that happens I keep a big pipe wrench handy, pad the jaws to protect the leg then I rotate the leg around till is at the angle I want. This can work to your advantage if you have cut the mortise at too steep an angle.
If I had the tenon cutter in a lathe or big drill press with a good vise holding the leg stock such angled cuts would probably never happen but holding the drill free hand seems to allow the tenon cutter to follow the grain of the wood more.
I red somewhere that using legs that are drier than the bench top will help tighten the grip as when the bench wood dries more it tightens on the drier leg tenon.
Howard,my tenons came out pretty good but some are off a little. I think I might know why after reading directions that came with tool which I read closely after I already cut them,which is my usual way of doing things.If end of leg isn't cut square when tool hits bottom it will cock toward angle of cut.Some of my ends may not have been perfect square.I think they will work ok though. I even bought me one of those Japanese pull saws to cut off excess tenon.Tried it on a piece of scrap wood and it cuts good.
Looks great Wlmedley.
Howard, I broke a leg on an ERC bench. It was on the backside of my planer, and did not see when I dropped the table that the wood would push on the leg as it came out. I cut it off with a Japanese flush cut saw, rebored the mortice and made a new leg. glued in back in, and you cannot tell it was ever not the original.
Yeah, somebody here told me about the Japanese pull saw and I bought one from HF and I love it.
I now use Octagon shaped legs instead of square and they fit in the tenon cutter much better. I can't really tell the difference from round stock.
Assembled my first bench today.Used 10 degree jig I made and splay on legs turned out pretty uniform.Bored completely through as jig had to set on flat surface and used half round pine slab for bench.Cut some wedges out of walnut and split tenons with pull saw.Not as nice as some I've saw posted on here but I think after sanding and finish it will look pretty good.Going to try Howard's sawmill method to cut legs off after glue has had time to dry.May give it to my neighbor who set my stove pipe for me a few months ago if turns out good.
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Howard's leg leveling method worked well.Bench sets good on a level surface.Like Doc I was a little nervous about using sawmill but this will be my go to method in the future.Sanded a little but wood needs to dry a little more.
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OMG. now you will just encourage him! :o :o :o :snowball: :snowball: :snowball: :)
smiley_smug01 smiley_smug01 smiley_smug01
I want to get some tenon cutters. What are the most common diameters you use?
I want to participate in the "what up bench mania" and also make 30" high and 18" high 3 legged stools for me.
Dennis, I reccomened getting the black ones that Doc has. I have the red one and it still is not cutting well for me, but I haven't had time to fiddle with it much lately.
As for size, you get a tiny bit of adjustment in these, but I think either 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" should be a good place to start. I use 1-1/2 and sand down to 1-1/4 and hand fit each leg. Not a great way to do it, but it works.
Can't wait to see how you make out!
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This is the one I use. I only use 1.5". You can buy a set of several different sizes if you plan on making other items but I'm partial to 1.5" for benches or stools. Also shown is the vise I bolted to the upright on my shed where I clamp the legs then cut the tenons on the end. A lathe or tall drill press might work better but this i s what I have available. Good luck.
Howard this is not meant to one up you. sincerely. I have a set of 9 tenon cutters now and one stake pointer. You may think I have more money than brain, and if you do please keep it to yourself. :snowball: :) the money for most of this has been a gift from my deceased parents (for now 15 years). I got money (as did my brothers) from my moms remaining retirement and I put it in a decedents IRA. It grows but there is some formula of money that has to be taken each year. a tax thing I guess. It started at 600 and that was the Christmas I bought my Stihl (read expensive but good) chain sharpener. This year I got the log clamp and sled, as I had a hole hog gear reduced Milwaukie drill on the shelf in the box new, bought on clearance when Lowes stopped carrying that line. It was the wrong drill in that the metal pipe handle and the trigger handles need to be opposite and in line with the chuck. So then I bought this one that is designed for this. It has a collar that can ride up and down in the holding clamp and slide (for the drill) and the chuck is centered. So I ordered the proper one. It came in with a ding, and they gave 30 bucks off and so it was right at 200 bucks. The lumber jack stuff was then on sale and made it seem reasonable and not worth me making my own, not having the benefit of all the R&D that they had done. I had been asked for pics, so I will add them now. It took a while to get the drill in and put it all together. the first carriage bolt was the normal light thread, but got the heavy duty, so did not fit the nut that holds the C bolt in place with a spring. It is designed for up to an 8 inch log, and under 2.5 inches, I add a spacer under the log clamp.
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So I went to the shop and decided I would have a stool before I left. Seat was 15 x 15 x 2" pine. Legs were 21 inch long 2 x 2 RO. All acclimated in dry shop many years. Put a 1 1/2 inch spade bit in the drill press rigged blocking to tilt at 13° and drilled the seat from the top. Then turned 2 1/2 inches long tenons on the lathe and cut a one and a half inch deep slot 1/8 inch wide on the tablesaw using a tenoning jig. Fitted to the seat holes before cutting the slot. Then oriented the slots correctly and lathered things up with titebond III and tapped the legs home, turned over insert wedges, wipe off glue, and cut with Japanese saw.
I get it - the tenon cutters for the drill save a lot of time. But I'm inspired that I roughed out this little stool first with what I already have.
Now to go split me some wood, and shop online at Miller time. Woo hoo. 8)
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your legs on your bench are much better than my first bench. I do not show it off, but I will not throw it away. :) great job.
Doc,
Nice set up. I have not had any occasion to cut tenons for anything except for benches so the one size is fine for me. Now if we can just teach you how to cut the legs to the proper height and angle using your sawmill... :D
Had a piece of bent red oak thats been leaning up against my sawmill shed for a year or more.Decided to try and make a bench out of it.Cut splits off the ends and sanded a little and wood looked pretty good.Adjusted tenon cutter a little and got tenons close to 1 1/2" which is what it's supposed to cut.Still not as tight as Doc's but better than what I have been getting.Glued and drove in walnut wedges.Need to sand some more and put some finish on it.Guess I'll use Howard's leg leveling method.It worked on the last one :laugh:
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First, good on ya Dennis! Your like me, you get something in your head you wanna try and can't let it go or wait for tools so you just take a shot. If you have a lathe that can hold size, that is the best way to go. But if it's a wood lathe and you are sizing each tenon one at a time, yeah, that can be slower.
I did a 3 legged stool about 2 years ago and it is sitting her in my den not getting much use. Even the cats are afraid to jump on it. :D But I didn't put in the leg slant like you did. Great job!
Wlmedley, looking good to! Watch how far in from the edges you set those legs though. If somebody plant their butt near the end it might flip up. On the other hand, there is great entertainment value in that, so maybe that was the plan? ;D BTW, any bites on your handsome shed yet?
Tom,haven't had anyone look at shed yet. I live back away from the main road and don't get many visitors.I guess I need to advertise somehow but going to wait till I get battens on.Wood has dried quite a bit and cracks are opening up on poplar siding.I know that would be a good thing for a woodshed but a lot of people go on looks and I think battens will give it a more finished look. I cut battens today.Getting spring weather up here.You're right on bench. I might cut a little bit off of ends.I built a picnic table once that if everyone got off one side it would upset 😠
you could move towards the ends, but could also splay out towards the end as well. I do 13° in both directions. I like the through tenons and the wedges. as it dries, they may swell up proud of the seat top. see how you like it. I think it is fine to trim the legs on the sawmill, just please do not tell Howard!!! :D :D :D I tend to orient the bench seat the other way with the live edge down. that gives a bigger purchase for the big boned gal as sang by KD Lange. any who, lots of ways to skin the cat, and it is all personal preference. Just do not tell Howard, if you like his way more!!! :) :) :)
Big Boned Gal - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTWFH4_RxsQ)
the lateral splay will stop any side to side wobble like a triangle. looks great! the wedge and contrary grain will pop with finish.
Doc,it doesn't look it but I made a jig that should get me 10 degrees both ways.Also I usually put wide side up but the wood grain was better looking on the narrow side so I thought I would try it on this one. I think slab is pretty dry.Legs maybe not so much.By the way I like that set up you bought. I'm still having pretty good luck with Dewalt battery drill although it's hard to hold straight.If the occasional big boned woman has a little hangover on the seat so be it.Can't please everyone :laugh:
Bill.
Good looking bench. I like to see those wedges placed as shown. I have found if I run them in line with the bench they tend to want to split the wood more. I usually try to put the narrow side up to display the rounded edge especially with wood like ash where the borer tracks add character. In some cases I have to turn the wide side up. Every case is different and you have to evaluate and adjust accordingly.
On the shed you can leave the battens off and just tell the customers the seams are for air flow to help air dry the firewood stored inside.
Got a red oak and a pine bench finished today.Found out finishing work is more time consuming than the actual build.Made a three legged bench out of walnut I salvaged last summer.Still need to do more sanding on legs and a little epoxy work.Found a good use for my woodshed for now :laugh:
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I like the legs closer to the ends. this makes them less likely to tip with a single sitter. I am having trouble seeing the lateral splay but trust it is there. The lateral splay stabilizes against lateral wiggles. nice concept of the 3 legged bench. comment: they are more stable (three legs) on uneven ground, but Auntie Bertha need set her buttock on the end with two legs. 8) :) ;)
the "not through" tenon is easier to finish as it is all side grain. Did it start out to be a three legged bench or did you trim the legs on the mill, and one just went flying? Run Forest Run! ;D ;D ;D the through tenon and contrasting wedge does add visual interest.
the shed makes it a shed/bench art exhibit.
"and that is all I have to say about benches" Forest Forest Gump!
I have not tried the 3 legged bench. I tried a stool or two but was not excited about it. I made a long bench one time and added a single center leg in the middle for extra weight support but I did not like the way it turned out or looked. If I make long benches that need extra legs I will just add them in pairs. That is no problem with the "toss them on the mill and saw all the legs at the same time" technique popular here in WV. :D
Surprisingly three legged bench is pretty stable .I put back legs at 10 degrees in both directions and single leg at 10 degrees one direction.Wood is really light weight so bench fills kind of tipsy when you grab it but when setting on it it's pretty solid.Thought I would try something different.Also I got a 1 7/16"bit to bore holes and now tenons fit really good.Wish I had a drill press setup like Docs but I'll just use what I have.I did use the WV method to level legs :laugh:
Doc,this picture shows angles on legs better.Maybe not enough but should be close to 10 degrees.
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I have made a few 3 legged benches. I took one to a campout, and my friend Mr. Fee (as young men refer to him as) and scoutmaster at the time, kept making fun of me that the bench looked unstable and I was sure to fall over. It is actually better for potentially uneven, lumpy or unlevel ground. Mine have had two legs on the back and one on the font center. I pictured two folks on your bench so rather than weight distributed on 3 legs, was joking about a larger person driving that single leg into the ground. I also orient my live edge down like in one of your benches, but many like to see it more and put it up. I should picture my first bench and things have evolved to a posh rustic. As you know or are figuring out, I like to have a little fun in addition to providing commentary. good luck figuring it out sometimes. :).
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I may or may not of gotten carried away posting a few other mean of sittin in my search for the scout leader bench
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above is actually a dog step for elder dogs to get on the bed with our pediatric surgeon at Wesley, and a good friend.
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a cookie bench made for an auction that raises money for and EMS/biker club for charity.
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A bench for one of my NPs for her wedding. as we worked a few shifts in the Wesley Pediatric ED, we figured out I was good friends with her mom in High School back in Concordia, Ks. grad. 1978. And my cousin married her uncle so we were related. :o 8) :)
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a bench for my cousin Jim's Daughter's wedding. my most beautiful bench I ever made. but looking at it now, I would have made the sqaure legs a quarter inch smaller.
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another bench another year for the fire and iron club.
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This was my original way of trying to level the legs in one plane. compared to this, even I would choose the sawmill deep south method. :D :D :D
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My sons eagle scout project. at his former middle school.
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an ERC bench bark on.
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Jeff's favorite bar stool engraving on leather Stihl calendar girl. I tell everyone it is my wife.
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benches for a former colleague's daughters
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a rocker made for my first great niece. used legacy oak from my wife's grandmothers front yard. I was asked to cut down the standing dead oak by my wife's aunt the week she died in hospice. so it spans 5 generations.
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Pilot to bombardier two seater at Philmont scout ranch. I did not make this but used it once.
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Oak bench for a Doc I respect and admire. the first and last bench I applied stain to. all other have natural finish.
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raw version of a blue stain pine bench.
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a second dog step for Dr. Mollic so she had one at her home in another town as well. she was taking the first one back and forth.
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Chillaxing at work one eve. it was tough, but they wanted to see if they could lift me. I am such a good sport. ;)
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a rocker made into a planter on it's last legs.
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A step for one of my PA's son (adopted grandson), He cuts the ERC trees for me.
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one of my few 3 legged benches.
a sister to a larger one I took on the campout.
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under belly. on shorter benches I go 13° and especially for children for a wider purchase so they do not tip, when stood on, and you know they will be stood on.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/B36B48FF-6C9E-4B9B-B099-FCFB23E2964F.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605230618)<br
And finally, the bench that started me on this rant, for Dan our former scoutmaster, Jet blue pilot, former Navy pilot.
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scout law, before I had the engraver, hand wood burned. the extra legs allow me the 12 points.
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very stable on flat surfaces, not as much on irregular terrain, thus making my point to Dan at a court of honor for eagle scouts as an honor for his service.
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It is walnut, but from the outer part of log and with sapwood.
now coffee. so you can see I have evolved. and have tried a few things. some better some not. I now have a standard 4 legged bench I can create in less than an hour. most are gifts. good use for the outer wood removed making a cant. I make much of it into firewood, but when I see some symmetric stuff, I cut and set it aside for later benches. I like the sawmill option for the leg trim. I have done it once. I do not want to damage the bench sides with the clamp is the only reason I do not do it, or for benches less than 3 feet. I could do it more, but may not post it as Howard and I have this thing. ;) :)
Nice benches Doc and a bunch of hotties holding you 😂
The one in the middle is onery. pottie mouth if we go drinking after work, and not sure I see her hands. she may or may not be grabbing my asthma!. ;) :) (she was not).
Had some small white oak logs I cut out of a tree top a while back thinking I would use for legs on a shaving horse.Shaving horse may never get built so decided to use on a bench.Used a pine slab for seat.Not sure I really like the look but it sets good and is solid.Still need to sand some more and finish.Pretty sure I'll at least be able to give it away :laugh:
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I like the legs. The lines just strike me as 'sexy' but I can't say why. A finish of some sort would really make that pop nicely.
Added another bench to my collection.After I got soft epoxy cleaned out of bad end and sanded it turned out pretty good.Used hickory legs and they almost match sapwood.Going to start getting rid of some of them.Problem is I have so much time in building one I hate to part with them.
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Bill,
That's a good looking bench! What kind of finish did you use on it?
Howard,I put spar urethane on it.Two coats so far and went over it with fine steel wool between coats.Probably will give it one more coat.May be my last one for awhile.To much grass and weeds to keep cut around here.
Cooking up a batch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/Walnut_benches_1_May2323.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1684933488)
Nice benches, everyone. JMoore and I are working on some Indiain rosewood benches between getting logs, sawing, working our day jobs and family obligations.
Doc, that drill of yours looks like the one Poston suggested getting several years ago when we were buying tenon cutters and bits to enable us to start more efficiently making benches. I still have not bought one and routinely stall my 1/2" Milwaukee hole shooter when cutting 2" tenons (most of our benches have 2" tenons cut on 3" octagon legs).
The rosewood benches we are working on now are not the usual 2" or 2 3/8" slabs but considerably thinner. We are attaching another piece of wood beneath the benches to allow a deeper mortise. Leveling on the mill is the quickest and easiest method to level, in my opinion. I have had a leg get violently snatched out of a cedar bench with 1" tenons several years ago. We also use Forschner bits to cut the mortises but the Porter Cable bits from a set I have actually cut faster and better than the ones that came with the Lumberjock kits.
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I am surprised that the hole hog gets bogged down. I have the new setup cause it was on sale, and I liked leaving it set up. I have still not made a single bench with it. i made all the tenons of the benches you see, with my tenon cutters in an 18V dewalt battery drill. It still works. I could do it on the drill press you saw, but have to spin the head on the radial press around. and then reset it. I prefer to leave it set up for the mortices. I think the sawmill works great for the legs. In addition to vibrated a bench loose and wrecking a blade, or guide roller bracket, I do not want my clamp to dent or damage the sides of the bench. Also the short benches do not span my bunks at 3 feet apart. I have made steps for dogs to get on beds, and used thinner stock with a board on the bottom to give the tenon more purchase. the setup was on sale around Christmas time and I get money in a check from a bit of money left by my parents and I get myself a gift. I also thought I already had the perfect drill, but it was the wrong model. I like the Lee Valley veritus cutters better than the lumber jack ones. I have the stake pointer and I still am trying to fine tune it.
I have a couple 1/2" Milwaukee hole shooters and they're great for what they are but they don't particularly shine in the torque department. They will suffer abuse quite well to a point. When I was fixing power tools professionally I saw many a hole shooter where the plastic had melted holding the field windings which necessitated a new field because they were bogged down too much generating a bunch of heat and limiting air flow from the now slow spinning cooling fan. I have a bit of a drill addition to the tune of couple dozen old monsters so I have my pick of drills that would sooner fling me through a wall than slow down more than 1%, this can be a blessing or a curse depending on whether or not the bit catches. A hole hawg would be better suited for high torque applications like tenon cutting.
And delivered. ;D
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Beauties Rob! Can you share more details? Species (something exotic or weird I expect :D ), joint types, what's underneath?
They look a lot like my Cherry benches I do with blind splines either in waterfall, or square such as yours.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20221213_201008537.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1670982956)
The delivered benches are old Franquette English walnut 4 inches thick on Redwood legs. The walnut is from old nut bearing orchards in central Ca., also known as gunstock walnut. I slightly sculpted the inside edge to form a rough semicircle around the firepit where they will rest. The legs are blind doweled with 1 inch white oak timber pegs and gorilla glue. After the glue set, I grouted the leg joints with epoxy and wood flour for a smooth transition. Rough sanded and oiled with Messmer's log home oil.
Quick, cheap, good looking :)
Thanks for the description (and the PM). I never would have guessed they were 4" thick. They must also be longer than they look. The timber pegs are a neat idea, do you use 2 or three per leg? I am guessing about 3" in on each end? I might just give that a try, it's a new method. In fact, I just realized I have a think ash slab that might be perfect for it.
I also do that epoxy transition, but the only way I can get it smooth and even is to put the bench upside down at a 45°, put a tape dam at each end and let it settle. That means 4 pours per leg and several days spent curing between pours. Do you have a faster WOC (tm) method?
Lot of nice benches on these pages. My question is about benches for the outdoors. My church has a project where they want outdoor benches for trails in a forest and I won't be making them but will be using my mill to produce the lumber. The logs available are downed red and white oak which aren't air-dried and 2.5" thick sweetgum lumber which is air dried. Are these viable candidates for such benches? How dry should lumber be for outdoor use and what preservatives do you recommend? What should the moisture content be before applying preservative? Since the sweetgum is already dry is there a recommended preservative for it or should it be forgotten all together? I have made many indoor benches but never outdoor - hence these basic questions.
My guess would be to use the white oak and if possible mount the legs to some "plastic" wood to prevent ground contact.
Thinking that the ilk of people hiking trails would prefer to not sit on a "bench" treated with a preservative. But maybe such a preservative will be mentioned here that will be more people friendly.
The Aldo Leopold benches seem to be popular along trails.
Build a Leopold bench - DNR News Releases (https://www.iowadnr.gov/About-DNR/DNR-News-Releases/ArticleID/1218/Build-a-Leopold-bench)
How to Make a Simple Garden Chair | Leopold Bench Design - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQBD-8PZVM)
I agree with the recommendation for the white oak. If you can get hold of any locust, even small ones for legs, I would use that for the the ground contact. If you can put the feet on bricks, stones or concrete that should help too.
I agree with Howard... white oak, or black locust, or hedge (Osage orange). You can impregnate with epoxy, and or roll a bit of copper napthalate on the contact surface, but it will be green.
Ok. Has anyone used eco wood?
I sawed red oak for a neighbor who finished it with eco wood. He's pleased and it looks good.
Quote from: kelLOGg on July 08, 2023, 09:24:46 AM
Ok. Has anyone used eco wood?
I sawed red oak for a neighbor who finished it with eco wood. He's pleased and it looks good.
Do you have a link to eco wood? And an msds that says what is in it?
Found this, but not sure it is what you refer to being applied to the red oak.
Eco wood treatment ruined my fence (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3938676/eco-wood-treatment-ruined-my-fence)
In general, oil finishes soak in and give a planer finish but are easy to reapply. poly and other surface finishes give a smooth surface and look good for a while, but after a winter, may peel and need sanded to refinish. On some wood, my spar varnish lasts for a long time preserving the color some and not peeling, like on ERC.
I've never used it but a neighbor did on red oak I cut for his deck. He liked it and the deck looks good. I read it is a powder that is dissolved in water and applied with a brush.
Just went back through this thread, and Boys we have made some stuff! :coolsmiley: :thumbsup: :)