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Author Topic: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install  (Read 3292 times)

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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2021, 01:22:59 PM »
Yes, I agree.  A good dust collection system is extremely important for respiratory safety as well as getting as much sawdust out of the shop space to prevent any kind of fire, even from other scenarios. I remember years ago I was hanging out, watching a buddy sharpening a lawn mower blade with an angle grinder in his shop.  I watched a hot spark of metal land on a years old pile of sawdust on the shop floor, and poof, up it went like somebody lighting a campfire with flint and steel.  The guy whose shop I was in wasnt much on sawdust safety but he did have a fire extinguisher handy and we laughed about it later.  

The benefits of a good dust collector of any kind outweighs the risks of a possible fire, in my opinion and practice. However, there are things that can be easily done to reduce any chances of ignition to other sources, such as using TEFC motors, proper circuit breakers, proper wiring, proper grounding, and non conductive pipe, if available.  Typically, such plastic is black or dark colored and simply made with a small percentage of carbon, which is electrically conductive. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline DR_Buck

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2021, 07:24:36 PM »

This whole continued myth on PVC shop dust collectors really ticks me off when people without facts continue to spread false information.   I would have expected that here on the forum it would not continue.    But is does.   

I posted a video up in this thread that goes through a comprehensive explanation of why PVC is perfectly safe.    There have also been studies to try and prove PVC duct work is not safe.   Oneida, who sells duct collector systems and metal duct work tried and failed.  They have all failed.    

There are ZERO documented cases of ANY fire or explosions caused by PVC ductwork used in a wood shop.    

Here is a link to a very well written detailed article that supports this:    http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/s...  


    
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2021, 01:41:30 AM »
Ive actually read the article many times, and it is limited in scope to home dust collection systems of which are defined, clearly, in the article, as under 1500 CFM, which is a very small system indeed, less than 1/3rd the performance of my earlier dust collection system, and considerably less still than my new system. It is also considerably less than what is used by some of the Forum members who are contributing to this topic.  So, in reality, the myth of an intrinsically safe dust collector system ends at 1500 CFM, which has no relevance to my system at all.  So in any case, the article and its conclusions do not apply to me, due to the size of my system.  What does apply?  The National Fire Protection Safety (NFPA) Codes.  

From the article, To my knowledge, there has never been a documented case of an explosion with PVC in the home shop, or a case of an explosion in a filter bag bag in a home shop.  A home shop is being defined in the article and the NFPA safety codes in part, as under 1500 CFM.  Mine and some of the others in this topic have many multiples of that.

So lets discuss this.  Here is the an important part of the article, so much so that it is highlighted in red by the author.  It is important to note that the NFPA codes only apply to systems that move more than 1500 CFM or greater.  Despite advertising claims, none of the systems generally available for home use...come close to 1500 CFM.  

So here are two very important subjects to discuss.  My system is sold and classified as an Industrial Dust Collection System.  Definitely not a home system under 1500 CFM.  In fact, it is many times larger than 1500 CFM.  What does that mean?  It falls under NFPA and OSHA regulations for flow rate requirements, assuming other site conditions are met.  It means that when I get my yearly and mandated inspections by the Fire Marshall, my system has to meet all NFPA codes that I fall under, or I may fail the inspection and get shut down.  Then since my insurance requires that I have a successful annual fire inspection, I lose my insurance.  This obviously is a very important couple reasons for me to not use PVC ducting, especially as I'm a business.  Quoted from the same article The NFPA codes...call for grounded metal ducts.  Also, I think its important to note that the NFPA codes only apply to systems that move more than 1500 CFM or greater.  Again, a very, very important piece of information.    

On to the second point, whether a home dust collector actually flows 1500 CFM.  The author states It is important to note that the NFPA codes only apply to systems that move more than 1500 CFM or greater.  Despite advertising claims, none of the systems generally available for home use...come close to 1500 CFM.  This is a very problematic statement.  Whether or not the author believes many dust collectors are over rated, there is only one piece of equipment information that is relevant to an NFPA inspection (assuming other criteria are met), and that is the rating on the blower.  If it says it exceeds 1500 CFM, then it will fall under NFPA rules, unless the actual calibrated airflow can be determined.  So in most cases, it would be reasonable to assume that any safety inspections would be based on the motor and system capability plate riveted to the blower, not on a subjective statement from the shop owner of "Well, I think its over rated..."

Why does the NFPA care?  What's the point?  Well, it simply depends on the size of the dust collector system.  Quote from "Designing your dust collection system to meet NFPA standards Part I, Gary Q. Johnson, Workplace Exposure Solutions" ---"About 40 percent of combustible dust explosions reported in the US and Europe over the last 25 years have involved dust collectors. Dust collection systems are now a primary focus of inspections required by OSHAs National Emphasis Program on safely handling combustible dusts."  If this document is read, it will immediately become apparent that a proper dust collector system is highly regulated in the larger systems, including flow losses, blast gate sizes, etc.  It is for this reason I had my system professionally designed.

Also, as I mentioned earlier in another post, there are several scenarios for dust collector induced fires, only one of which is the ignition and explosion inside the dust collector pipe or system.  Other problematic causes are from external sparks lighting flammable materials and vapors.  These occurrences can be greatly reduced by proper housekeeping.

Oh, by the way, from a real life standpoint, many people know that I get some of my wood planed at an offsite commercial facility.  In fact, earlier in this year, they blew the explosive release vent off their dust collector and were down for 2 weeks while they awaited repairs.  There is typically only one reason the explosive safety vent blows off a dust collection system.  Yes, it is a commercial system, but it is also worth noting that dust collector explosions can and do occur, otherwise commercial systems wouldn't have safety blast vents on them to begin with.  So I believe it's important that any such discussion involving dust collector hazards should always also referenced the size of the system and its relevance to national safety standards.

Can a dust collector fire happen, either internally or externally? Yes.  Is it of concern in a small shop, with a dust collector rating or actual CFM of under 1500 CFM?  Probably not.  Is it a concern with a system with over 1500 CFM?  Yes, enough so that it falls under NFPA regulations if other site conditions are met.  Is it a concern in a commercial application with commercial insurance?  Yes.  Is it a myth?  No, the facts are out there and readily available.  

Get the codes, read the codes, follow the codes.  If you don't fall under the codes, read them anyway so you can follow "best practices."

To paraphrase a popular TV commercial ......."What is in your shop?"  
 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2021, 02:00:21 AM »
Good read Yellowhammer 👍. Probably would be wise to just use metal piping system. Better to be safe than sorry 

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2021, 08:58:09 AM »
Robert, I am interested in the fine dust collection.  Are there pleated filters on that system? Are they after the blower or before?  How and how often are you needing to clean those filters.  That's the part I'm worried about getting a similar but maybe smaller system.  If you're protecting your lungs by catching the fine stuff, if you have to blow them out, you'll still get very dirty and will be a messy job, no?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2021, 11:35:18 PM »
They are offered, but I didnt buy them because they are generally such a mess to clean, and wont hold up in an outside environment.  I dont know how long the time is between cleanings, but since there are three pleated filters, each about 5 feet tall, I can only imagine its not a fun job at all to clean the fine dust filters. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2021, 01:31:32 AM »
So then your fine dust just exhausts into the outside air?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #87 on: March 28, 2021, 08:55:43 AM »
 

 
Yes, I originally had an open port from the blower, but it was pretty loud, so I put a plenum and 3 foam sound attenuators on the output side.  Normally, this is where the 3 stack pleated filters mount, but you can see they aren't installed.  This helped reduce the sound significantly.  Basically, the air exits the blower straight down, and none of the fines get filtered out.  They exit about 10 feet from the building, and I never see them again. 

I've had other dust collectors with fine filters and cleaning them always left me looking like I'd rolled in flour, covered in dust.  I hated it.  Of course, I can't clean the air filter on my tractor without getting dust on me, much less 3 pleated dust collector filters, each about 5 feet long.  

I'm not sure how long they would need to run before they needed cleaning, but as much as we use ours, I'm sure I would have had to do it once by now.    
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline tmbrcruiser

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2021, 09:58:38 AM »
I purchased the system with a return to four filters and a barrel that is under the filters. I believe I will be able to clean the filters without removing them. Using an air hose to blow and shaking the pleats at the same time. My understanding is I will be able to dump the finds from the barrel when full. Piping has arrived but, still waiting on the rest of the equipment.
Once you get sap in your veins, you will always have sawdust in your pockets.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2021, 09:28:47 PM »
Yes if you have to blow out the fine filters and get it all over you and breath it in, kinda defeats one of the primary purposes - to protect your lungs.  If, as tmbrcruiser indicates, you have a system with a catch bin underneath, and the process of agitating the filters is mechanical so that the filters never need to come off, that would be the best.  Of course this would be if you are exhausting your air indoors to not lose heat or cool.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Larry

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2021, 09:56:05 PM »
Bigger shops have a bag house with a shaker.  When they shake the bags the dust falls into trough with an auger that brings the fines outside.  You could rig up something similar on a small system.

I like YellowHammer's idea.  I also exhaust outside with a small blower and on a still evening my neighbor a 1/2 mile away can hear it. :o

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline DR_Buck

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #91 on: March 29, 2021, 09:01:00 AM »
Yes if you have to blow out the fine filters and get it all over you and breath it in, kinda defeats one of the primary purposes - to protect your lungs.  If, as tmbrcruiser indicates, you have a system with a catch bin underneath, and the process of agitating the filters is mechanical so that the filters never need to come off, that would be the best.  Of course this would be if you are exhausting your air indoors to not lose heat or cool.


On a smaller scale my dust collector does just that.     There is a low RPM motor that has a long shaft that protrudes the length of the filter.   The shaft has several nylon or some sort of plastic tabs that extend out from the shaft up against the inside of the filter pleats.  When the collector is powered off, the the filter cleaning motor rotates one direction for about 15 seconds, stops, then goes the opposite direction for the same amount time.   This knocks the dust from the filter down into the bag on the bottom.     I empty the bag every few months, or more often if I don't pay attention to the 'Full Barrel" alarm and then the bag fills up with shavings and large dust.  ::)    I have had this collector for 15+ years and have never had the filter off.





 
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Offline tmbrcruiser

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #92 on: March 29, 2021, 12:59:30 PM »
The system I have now has three filter with small motors that rotate in both directions to clear the filters. The one of the problem with that system the filter are rubbed in the same place and soon wear. But I never have a problem fine dust in the shop air. Seems every system has it's pro's and con's, so we all end up picking a system what works best for our individual needs. The best thing about this forum lots of experienced advice.
Once you get sap in your veins, you will always have sawdust in your pockets.

Offline RussMaGuss

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2021, 08:41:19 AM »
So looking at this fancy system with the rotary airlock and everything has got me thinking. Instead of attempting and failing to DIY my own rotary airlock for my grizzly 3HP cyclone, what do you guys think about this: wall mounting the cyclone up higher, cutting a hole in the bottom of the barrel and adding a big blast gate to a chute that leads outside of my garage. That way, when it fills up, instead of farting around with emptying and replacing the bag for 5 minutes, I can just have it dump into a 275 gallon box that I can then take to my mill scraps area and dump/burn. I am thinking this would be my best option since I am looking to save shop floor space and decided against having it being outdoors. I'm mostly wondering on how airtight the blast gate would have to be to maintain a solid vacuum in there. 

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2021, 12:33:04 PM »
The blast gate has to be pretty tight, since its on the suction side.  However, you could do exactly as you suggest, as long  as the opening in the bottom of the collection barrel is large enough for the sawdust not to jam up or clog the opening, or while it's feeding.

You could also use a smaller blower as a transfer blower, maybe an old dust collector blower you are not using, and just suck out the dust in the barrel when it gets full.  That way the blast gate on the bottom of the drum maintains a seal, and then when it's opened, the transfer blower can suck out the sawdust.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline tmbrcruiser

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #95 on: May 02, 2021, 09:56:22 AM »
I received the equipment from Oneida (20hp cyclone with filters, air lock and transfer blower) about two weeks ago. Shop has been a mess putting the equipment together and figuring out the exact placement/piping. Tomorrow concrete is scheduled for 10:00, looking forward to the new system. Hope to post some pictures as we set equipment.
Once you get sap in your veins, you will always have sawdust in your pockets.

Offline tmbrcruiser

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2021, 07:49:04 PM »
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Laguna collector is being replaced by the equipment from Oneida. The Laguna is a good collector but dumping the bin slows down the shop a lot. The cyclone is outside in an equipment bay and the transfer blower will sit on small pad outside (to the left). The return filters will sit inside the shop at about the same place as the Laguna collector. 

Looking for a 16' dump trail, covid has all the trailer sales lots out of trailers to sell. Several dealers said they would have new stock in about three weeks. Will build a box over the dump trailer, that should hold about 750 cubic feet of dust/shavings. The bin under the Laguna collector hold about 45 cubic feet and when I'm running flooring fill that bin in about 20 minutes. That is the reason for the upgrade.

Plan is to connect the electric and all of the duct work from the air lock to the transfer blower. Last thing will be to change duct and connect filters in the shop. Hoping this will only shut down the shop for a day or two.  
Once you get sap in your veins, you will always have sawdust in your pockets.

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2021, 10:18:50 PM »
That is a sweet setup.  Your filters stand up with a bin under them.  Thats opposite of how mine were, thats why I didn't get them.  I like your setup.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2021, 10:24:21 PM »
Very nice 👍. Whats the hp of your setup 

Offline Walnut Beast

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Re: New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2021, 10:26:57 PM »
I see that its 20 hp. WOW 


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