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RR Ties for $40

Started by GeneWengert-WoodDoc, December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM

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SwampDonkey

Here in Canada at least, the amount of crude on rail has grown exponentially.  Now we have western farmers sitting on grain and can't get grain moved in a timely manner because of oil cargo. Although CP claims increased rail service (a record) for shipping grain this season. There was a huge surplus in the west because of yield. But essentially, absolutely no new track lines. In fact there are lines in real need to have rotten ties replaced. So if ties are so cheap, it's not reflected in what's getting done.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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Magicman

The tie replacing crew recently came through on one of our lines.  That is one well organized process.   ;D
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chopperdr47

I am getting my mill ready and working through the learning curve. I have been told that ties may be a means of business. There is a sawyer near me that cuts azobe nearly exclusively for the railroad. He told me that once I'm up and running, he would keep me busy with all the work I want from his "turn aways" that he cant get to.

One customer he turned away would pay for just the ties from the logs that he would have delivered and nothing else. Any good wood left would be profit. That was about a year and a half ago. He believes that that customer may still be in the market. The sawyer I know will help me with what he can if it's something I want to do.

I have a Frick "0" with plenty of power. My question is,  is this something that a novice should approach or be left to the mass production pro's and does anyone know what green ties are going for in central Alabama?

Many other questions but feasibility would be the first issue I believe.
If ya ain't got what ya need, use what ya got

Ron Wenrich

I've worked with guys that do as little as a couple of lifts a week, to ones that do close to a load a day.  A lot depends on who you send to, and who does the trucking.  One thing you will need is some dead rolls, at a minimum.  If you're going to claim the sidecuts, then you'll need an edger.  Edging at the headsaw is a dead end street.  You will also need 1-2 helpers.  On a mill similar to yours, I would be able to saw about 5 Mbf/day with 2 helpers. 

If you're not delivering ties close by, then you should work to get a trailer load, which is about 200 ties.  If you deliver close by, you can deliver smaller loads, but your trucking costs are inflated.

No matter what you cut, your'e going to need alternative markets.  Not all logs will make ties.  You should have a market for pallet boards and cants, something for your sidecuts (either grade or flooring), and markets for slabs and sawdust.  You will also need a consistent log supply.  Without those, its going to be a struggle.  I've seen mills go under because they don't have all those things tied together.

Tie specs are limited by species, and length.  Length varies by tie buyers.  Here in the NE, its 8'6" as a minimum, and the Midwest its 9'.  There are limitations on the amount of bark (which has to be removed), as well as shake, double heart, splits and the like.  Get to know what your inspector will take.  Rejects only pay $5. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chopperdr47

There are quite a few chicken houses and horse farms nearby that are already asking about sawdust. I don't believe there will be much trouble selling it based on what a sawyer friend told me.

I have a Corley edger that needs work but that's coming fairly soon. I believe I will put it on separate power rather than try to run it of my mill power. I should have enough horse power, but the flat belt to run it may be longer than I want.

I found the Railroad Tie Association's website, They have a page that has the standards for ties. http://www.rta.org/assets/docs/rtaspecificationsbooklet.pdf

It looks like this is something that I really should consider.
If ya ain't got what ya need, use what ya got

SwampDonkey

There's a small hardwood mill some distance from here, but has been in operation for at least 25 years, run by the third generation in the family. They get cheaper wood than most small hardwood mills you think of in the US because it's off public lands for the most part. They do buy private wood, but that is mostly subject to crown wood prices. Anyway, they saw a lot of ties, and the gravy is in the figured side lumber which is curly and birdseye. And I think they always sold it and the regular run of the mill lumber to places that warehouse it, like Maritime Lumber where it gets dried. Maritime lumber was sold to someone else that ran it into the ground within a year or so. Too bad to, because that was a great set up for around here. The old fellow that sold was retiring and in his late 70's, ran it 25-30 years I think.
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

5quarter

A few days ago, I saw where BNSF is pulling up and replacing concrete ties on a long stretch just outside Omaha. Gotta be good for the tie market.
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SwampDonkey

Letting things slide like they did to a point of no return back in the 1980's will only make it easier for more rail lines here to close. They let bridges and track wash away into the river. I have been hearing on the radio of many more stretches of track getting bad. Via rail has cut way back on passenger service here and would be just as happy letting their Maritime line disappear altogether. In fact that is the direction they are headed.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Larry

Quote from: 5quarter on January 24, 2014, 05:39:37 PM
A few days ago, I saw where BNSF is pulling up and replacing concrete ties on a long stretch just outside Omaha. Gotta be good for the tie market.

That's on one of there main lines from the coal fields in N Dakota to at least Kansas City or even further south.  When I lived in north Missouri I watched them replace all the wood ties with concrete.  That was in the late 80's.

This time of the year it was common to count 10 coal trains an hour running day and night.  I hardly ever saw track maintenance at this time of the year just because of the traffic.
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Ron Wenrich

35 years on a tie is pretty good life.  I've seen where the wood life is only about 8-10 years.  A lot depends on climate, haul weights and who's doing the study.. 

I've read that the cars are 25% bigger than what they were.  If you're running bigger cars, the old concrete won't hold up.  It also tears up wooden ties a lot quicker. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Okrafarmer

Around here, we have two main RR's that go right through the area, and in some places their tracks are barely 100 yards apart. One of them is replacing a lot of ties right now, I believe it is CSX. CSX seems to be running a lot of container trains (contrainers?) these days, and a lot of those cars seem to have a single tandem truck dolly between two spans instead of actually being two separate cars. Obviously this would cut down on rolling stock cost, weight, and maintenance, and possibly have other benefits, but I wonder if it puts more stress on the track having fewer wheels per length of train. I suppose it all depends on the weight of the freight. Norfolk Southern is pulling a lot of tank cars here recently. We do have a biodiesel plant in our area. I also see a lot of cars that are ventilated and look a bit like cattle cars, but on closer inspection you can see automobiles inside them. So those are car cars.  ::) There's a lot of traffic on the rails, but no 10 trains per hour. Maybe one to two per hour, not sure.

So-- any movement in tie prices?
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stavebuyer

When Dr. Gene started this thread we were getting $21 for 7x9 ties. We got paid $30 this week.

SwampDonkey

Usual up's and downs and people react. ;)

We are actually seeing a shortage of rail service, as western wheat is still not all sold because it can't get shipped. If there is a boon on rail service they better get going. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

hackberry jake

Ther are three big mills near me. All of them have the ability to cut ties and they do. But one of them is set up for mainly ties. They have been running wide open with the prices the way they are. One of the other mills is set up mainly for grade lumber, the lumber prices on oak and hickory are through the roof right now, and that mill is running two shifts for the first time ever. The third mill is set up mainly for pallet and pulp operations. The loggers in this area ar running themselves RAW trying to keep up. I guess this is a good thing.
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mjl_2007

Just curious what ties are bring in different areas now?

JB Griffin

In my neck of the woods 7x9x8'8" are bringing $27
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SwampDonkey

Yeah, no big gold mine when there is lots of supply. ;) Go into Kent (Irvings) for a hardwood board 8" x3/4" 8' long and finished and pay $80 a board. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

stavebuyer


WV Sawmiller

All,

      I do not know how far along they are with the process, cost or production capabilities but there is some on-going research to make railroad ties and similar products from old tires. I do not know how long they would last but I would think they would last longer than treated wood ties and I would assume if they ever broke down they could be recycled like melting down old aluminum cans. This looks to me like a good outlet for recycling car and truck tires.

     Also has anyone ever sold poplar for ties? Is there a market for them or are they too soft?

     Have a happy and safe holiday season.
Howard Green
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Ron Wenrich

I have never sold any poplar to the RR industry. 

Recycled rubber would be interesting.  But, how well does it hold a spike?  How rigid are they sitting in the sun on a 100° day? 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WV Sawmiller

Ron,

    I don't know how well the recycled  tires hold a spike. I'd estimate they would do okay. I have heard of them being used for fence posts and they had very similar properties to wood. Wires in the treads could cut or scratch you but not that much different than splinters in wood.

    I hate to hear poplar (I'm thinking of tulip polar) not used for ties. I have a mill (WM LT35 hyd) coming in a couple weeks and have a good bit of excess poplar I'd like to thin and thought this might be an outlet for them. Thanks for the reply though.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Lambee10

I worked on a project in Alberta recently for loading Crude Oil Trains or Unit trains. The create a loop so they can pull the entire train (118 cars) off the main line onto the property.  Anyhow they were using metal ties which were more expensive but they claimed it was offset by using less ballast (rock bed under the track).  Not sure if there was an advantage.  ??? To Doc's point, the unit trains do move a lot of oil faster than a pipeline which makes it popular.  Hauling crude from Alberta to Houston for refining would be as much or just a bit more per barrel as a pipline but much faster.  However, if they can can get a back haul of condensate or something back to Alberta then the cost is much cheaper.  Trains are going to be around for a long time....gonna need wood ties as I dont think the metal ones are catching on :D
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FarmingSawyer

I was just talking to an old timer who was telling me his grandfather used to mill ties here in Maine from Cedar in the early 1900's and when this fella, now 80, was a young man--in the 60's they used a bunch of those cedar ties to form the foundation of a large cabin and it's still there!
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sandsawmill14

  "rubber ties"    I remember several years back the tie company we were selling to swap to some kind of plastic rr tie so they cut us off.  About two yrs later same buyer came back and got real mad when we wouldnt   sell him any ties. The boss simply told him he hadnt missed a check since they dropped us so look somewhere else  :D. I suspect rubber would be same way. i know they have tried concrete,steel and plastic but always come back to wood.  Run out of wood you run out of rr. ;D
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SwampDonkey

Why they would want to go rubber or whatever is a mystery. It must be some localized experimenting. I never seen anything but hardwood ties here. They don't have "play money" in these parts to experiment with. ;) We barely have a railroad left because they never invested in it to at least fix stuff.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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