Generating electricity from wood waste

[Kansas]

On the Portage amd Main, or E Classic series, or other gasification units, regulating with wood should not be a problem. I think. I did talk to the Portage and Main people about it. They had their research people on it. I am becoming more convinced all the time this should be doable, and very cost effective. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, I dunno. Here is the thing I like about it. If you could generate 3 phase electricity somewhere where running that electricity is cost prohibitive on conventional lines, and generate your own, that would sure expand the possibilities of where people could have electric mills  and/or any equipment for that matter.

Lot more work to do on this project.

[Ianab]

I think part of the advantage with chips or pellets is that the feeding and control is easier to automate.

If you were burning wood you would pretty much need to have some-one babying it, like the fireman on an old steam engine. Let the fire burn down, or throw on too much fresh wood and your gas output goes down, and you run out of power.  An automated system would be feeding in a steady amount of fuel and adjusting it cope with the load needed.

A wood boiler heating a house, it doesn't matter if the output drops off for 10mins while you reload the wood. But if your gen set stops, everything stops.

Like 100 years ago this was the power plant for a portable sawmill. It ran on waste wood. But someone had to get to the job a couple of hours early and get the  boiler up to temp and look after the power plant over the day. As they had no mains power, there we no other option, so that's what they did.

Problem is that on a small scale you can't afford a dedicated operator. It has to be at least partly automated.

Is it practical to pre-dry the slabwood, then chip it for feeding into the gas generator?

Ian

[Al_Smith]

If you could generate 3 phase electricity somewhere where running that electricity is cost prohibitive on conventional lines, and generate your own, that would sure expand the possibilities of where people could have electric mills  and/or any equipment for that matter.

Lot more work to do on this project.

There are other methods to get three phase power .For example a rotary converter runs at about 93 percent efficiency and can easily be made with a three phase moter and a hand full of parts .I've made about 20-25 of them myself .They work great .

[Kansas]

You can do that, Al. And many certainly have. But it requires extra motors, time, and you still wind up paying for the electricity. I don't know what the average sawmill has in horsepower. I did a quick figure and ours has 205 in the two bandmills, gang edger, and resaw, all in three phase.  Plus we have some more; sander, planer, pop up saw, probably a few others I am forgetting. That is a lot of phase converters. And we plan on putting in a wood waste grinder in the new building, that will run from 40 to 100 horse.  I can't even imagine what a moderate grade mill that includes a circle saw runs for horsepower.

I keep thinking back to the food products factory I believe I mentioned elsewhere in this forum. They have a bunch of phase converters set up. it would be close to 100,000 to run 3 phase from the power company. They really don't use that much electricity, nor are their motors that big. Just a bunch of them. And who knows; if power companies had a little competition, they just might be a little more competitive on getting 3 phase run to farms and rural businesses.

It will be interesting to see how the meeting goes Monday.

[Al_Smith]

Well of course after you get a large enough load it becomes impractical use a phase converter .Although I know a gent that ran a machine shop using a 50 HP converter .It took a pony motor  to spin it up though but once it was on the line he did just fine .His shop had 400 amp service .

You have to figure on 3 phase 240 it's 2.5 amps per HP or 1.25 on 480 .With 200 plus HP that's a large single phase service .

On that subject it becomes rather confusing instead of say 25 amps on a 10 HP three phase under load ,the converter only runs at around 10 amps once started .They will start up to whatever size they are and run up to 3 times that amount .So a 10 HP will run about 30 HP give or take .

If you figure the difference between using single phase motors or three phase with a converter the later is more economical .Now I'm talking a small business not someones garage nor a large user of electrical power . It would be rather silly to change a table saw over to three phase plus build or buy a converter instead of just leaving the thing alone and run it as it came .

My little shop has the old lathes ,milling machine ,drill presses etc all three phase so the choice was a no brainer for me .Besides that the look on peoples faces is worth all the effort like it's magic or something . Again little tricks of the trade you don't learn in apprenticeship school . :D

[Warren]

... it would be close to 100,000 to run 3 phase from the power company....

Are you working with an RECC ?   Several years ago, I was considering running 3 phase to my barn for an electric mill.  At that time the tobacco buyout program was in full swing.  One of the "provisions" of the tobacco buy out program (at least in KY) was that it would pay for utility poles and transformers to provide 3 phase electric service to farms that were "diversifying".

I had to have a building with 3 phase service panel installed and ready.  And I would have had to pay for the wiring from the transformers to the building. But the buy out program would pay for the balance of the costs.   

Are there any RECC programs available in your area that might defray the cost of installing utility 3 phase ?

[Kansas]

Al, I talk a lot with a guy from the local REA. He has been instrumental for us getting the low interest loan for the building we are putting up. He knows the ins and outs of every government program available, and probably has written more proposals for anyone rural in the state. I talked with him about it a little bit. He indicated it was the additional cost of running heavier poles, crossarms, and wire. I don't know what it costs to build a mile of three phase. I have no idea how many miles it would be where this place is at from where 3 phase is available. Maybe someone on this forum that might have something to do with electric companies can add further to this.

[Al_Smith]

I wouldn't have a clue myself .I was never involved in the cost and probabley the longest line I was ever involved in was about a half a mile .

You could figure a pole about every 160 to 200 feet .I suppose by now maybe 1500 2 grand per pole ???

When I was working out of the hall my IBEW ticket was/is journeyman inside wireman . However working for a small contractor you could get involved in any thing .Enough line work I decided that wasn't my cup of tea so to speak .

Ha 40 years later I much prefer programming industrial robots which is much less taxing to the old bod as stomping poles . ;D

[Norm]

3/4's of a mile with new poles and wire was 24K about 10 years ago.

[thecfarm]

Cost me $5000 for 500 feet going up my driveway 11 years ago.  Would of been more if the phone company did not own part of the line.

[Al_Smith]

The rascals kind of have everybody by the short hairs with having to pay for the utilities supply llines weather it's gas or electric . It didn't used to be that way but politics being what they are the powers that be got the laws changed over the years .

When those single phase lines were first installed it wouldn't have cost them very much more to hang cross arms and two more conductors on the original installation .50-60 years later they want to put in new poles etc weather they need them or not and charge for a whole new line .Just another means to take advantage of a situation .Not much you can do about except mumble and grumble .

If the power is already available they don't charge to make the tie in from the pole to the point of attachement locally .Fact I ungraded my wife's cousin's shop a few years back from 200 amp single to 240 delta .No charge from the power company . They had to set two more transformers plus make a drop of quadra plex .

I had to laugh after he got his first bill .He thought he would get hit high with a demand meter .He only had the largest motor in his shop at 7.5 HP and he didn't know any better .The bill was less than had he been still on single phase .

[Kansas]

Had a great talk with Rick at Bioburner.Just exploring every avenue available. They have done some research in this kind of area, and he gave me some good figures. He seems to think most of this is all experimental. He said go forward carefully. Which I will.

I just keep thinking that this whole thing is about re-inventing the wheel. If it was done in the 40's extensively to power gas engines, it shouldn't be that hard now to replicate. I have to think that wood gasification would be better now than people having wood burning stoves in the back of pickups back then and feeding the carb. What I have trouble with is figuring out what kind of wood waste stream we actually generate, the best to utilize it, how much power we can generate from that waste.

[Ron57]

 The GEK people are now working on a 100KW power generator for the University of Minnesota. They may be able to help you figure out if it is practical, I dont see why it wouldnt be especially if you are using the heat as well as the electricity.You probably could use something larger than that by your electric bill.
    My pickup now has about 6000 mi on woodgas with no problem, one question I have is how long will the motor last burning wood ? I am sure that if it is filtered good enough it would last at least as long as gasoline.
I am building a gasifier to run a 65hp tractor and am planning to run a pto  run generator about a 30kw to partly supply my shop.

[5quarter]

Maybe you could generate enough cash from slab by-product to pay the electric bill rather than trying to make your own electricity. What if you had a dedicated planer and ran all your slab wood through that and sold the shavings for animal bedding, or even insulation? Arky insulated his buildings with wood shavings and it seemed to work well for him. just a thought.

[SwampDonkey]

This whole house is insulated with wood wool. I call it wool for lack of the proper term at the moment. We installed it in the 70's, even added extra in the attic about 25 year ago. It's blown in with a rig we rented. If I remember there is a fire suppressant added in it.

[Al_Smith]

Wood wool ,Forest wool ,they're both just trade names for ground up newspaper with a fire retardent .

Imagine that ,insulting a house by recycling the New York Times or the Chicago Tribune .Plus this was all before anybody got that "green " idea .

Seriously though ,insulation is about the only thing I know of that will put money back in your pocket over a given amount of time which requires no maintainance .Now of course you can't let the roof leak turning the whole mess into paper mache .

[SwampDonkey]

No worst than water soaked fibre glass pink insulation sitting in wooden boxed cavities in walls and attics. ;D

Not only will it keep frosty out in the winter, but keeps heat miser at bay in the summer. ;D

I know a fellow that lived in a trailer and those walls are pretty thin. His power consumption was about the same year round. If it wasn't baseboard heat in the winter it was air conditioning all summer. He even had the trailer surrounded by trees and it would still get hot in that tin box. :D  Only thing that runs extra here is a little 1/4 hp motor on the furnace in winter. ;D

[Al_Smith]

No worst than water soaked fibre glass pink insulation sitting in wooden boxed cavities in walls and attics. ;D

Fibre glass ??? ???  Must be the same as fiber glass . I'll have to cheque that out . :D

[TMinus]

Canadian spelling, you yanks mix-up your 'e's and 'r's and forget your 'u's  :D

[Al_Smith]

 :D R U nutz ,we can spiel real good .

[Kansas]

Talked to a company today that talked about their unit, being basically a turn key type operation, producing electricity at 2.5 cents a kilowatt hour, not counting the cost of the wood waste and labor fueling the unit. And you don't have to use wood chips, you can use the wood cut in chunks. It sounds way too good to be true. But if it was true, all I can say is wow. Now I have to figure out if they are legit.

Not quite sure how to proceed further with this thread as far as naming the company. Just got home from an unrelated late meeting and will do some more checking out sometime tonight. It sounds exactly like what I am looking for, and also sounds too good to be true. But if it appears to be a solid company, and that is a big if, I would like advise from the electrical and engineer type people from here.

[Paul_H]

Kansas,

do you have a name and website of the co?

[Kansas]

Will shoot you a personal message

[SwampDonkey]

I'll have to cheque that out . :D

Pay cheque, wood check Al.  :

[Al_Smith]

Well yes but pay cheques are almost a thing of the past ,direct deposit .

I never checked out the Canadian spelling of same but I assume some French must have gotten mixed in some how.

Back to the subject .Sooo with this info it appears as I had heard in the past that the utilities evidently buy the co generated power at 2.5 cents per KWH which is pretty cheap considering .

Lets see now at 34,500 BTU per steam HP plus the reduction factor converting HP to generated power plus other factors that could amount to a gigantic pile of wood to get some salable power .

Well I suppose a person could grind it all to sawdust and blow it in like they do powdered coal in a rotary concrete kiln .There's not much you can do with sawdust anyway except make charcoal briquets .It might drive the price of charcoal up but not many use it anymore anyway .--Oh Lawdy this could go on forever --- :D