I have been watching tree videos and from seeing people work in trees and how guys have to start a saw on the ground and then climb with it running, I think I have a better idea.
What about an electric start push button saw?
Powered by a small gas propane bottle (like a Co2 type) you can easily refill by popping in a new one. Which would make the saw much lighter because you can carry a few bottle in your belt. It would eliminate the tank so you could make the saw smaller and move the handle to make it easier to handle.
The advantages being no pull starting in a tree, no trips down for a gas refill or sending it down on a line, less smell and fumes, less noise, cooler running, etc. Being easier to start means climbing with the saw off and only turning it on when needed.
Just an idea. I don't climb trees, but, watch those that do.
:D
The decomps make starting fairly easy now.
now, thats thinking way outside the box...... something i admire very much. i think that would be kinda neat....
Some saw manufacturers are already in the process of designing a 'self starter'.
I think its called an inertia starter.There is a second spring in the starter assembly which is loaded off the running engine.The next time the engine has to be started, you need to press a button that causes the loaded spring to crank the engine.
Its already available on some lawn mowers (and brushcutters??).
Its just a matter of time before you have it on chainsaws.
Quote from: rebocardo on May 23, 2007, 05:49:52 PM
I have been watching tree videos and from seeing people work in trees and how guys have to start a saw on the ground and then climb with it running,
What videos have you been watching? Yea there are some guys that will leave a running saw hanging from them at times. I personally HATE that idea and never do it. It is very easy to start a saw in the tree, you use the saws weight to push it away from you while holding the pull cord. I have started saws ranging from an ms200 to an 880 while standing on spikes, but I have never hauled a running saw into a tree.
Propane bottles in your belt? Have you really thought this through? I can see it now...............Ground man injured as climber chucks spent propane bottle out of 70ft tree.
> What videos have you been watching?
From youtube.com
> but I have never hauled a running saw into a tree.
Everyone I have ever hired to climb trees for me have done it. I have watched many local tree services do the same thing. Myself, I wouldn't want a hot running saw behind me banging on my leg and I would be too afriad of knocking off the hand brake and then snagging the trigger. They are doing the climbing and getting paid $30 an hour, I let them do what they think is best.
> Propane bottles in your belt? Have you really thought this through?
Actually, yes. I gave propane as an example only because it is cheap and available so the infrastructure is there for easy refills and people already run propane powered equipment (fork lifts, full sized trucks, etc.)
You carry up cannsters the size of BB CO2 cannisters, if that, and not the size of a grill cannister. They would snap in and out with one hand. The idea is small and light and carried on a belt or band, enough for an hour's worth of work. Because the saw is not constantly running and easy to start and stop, it runs even less. Which saves on fuel and saw wear and tear.
You wouldn't toss the cannisters, you reuse them, and bring them down. I have lost wedges after a tree fell and the wedge spit out, I would imagine trying to find a bottle dropped from 70 feet is a bit tougher after it bounced.
Plus. any ground man stupid enough to get hit in the head in case you drop it by accident is probably stupid enough to get hit in the head by a branch too.
Quote from: rebocardo on May 28, 2007, 06:17:49 PM
> What videos have you been watching?
From youtube.com
> but I have never hauled a running saw into a tree.
Everyone I have ever hired to climb trees for me have done it. I have watched many local tree services do the same thing. Myself, I wouldn't want a hot running saw behind me banging on my leg and I would be too afriad of knocking off the hand brake and then snagging the trigger. They are doing the climbing and getting paid $30 an hour, I let them do what they think is best.
> Propane bottles in your belt? Have you really thought this through?
Actually, yes. I gave propane as an example only because it is cheap and available so the infrastructure is there for easy refills and people already run propane powered equipment (fork lifts, full sized trucks, etc.)
You carry up cannsters the size of BB CO2 cannisters, if that, and not the size of a grill cannister. They would snap in and out with one hand. The idea is small and light and carried on a belt or band, enough for an hour's worth of work. Because the saw is not constantly running and easy to start and stop, it runs even less. Which saves on fuel and saw wear and tear.
You wouldn't toss the cannisters, you reuse them, and bring them down. I have lost wedges after a tree fell and the wedge spit out, I would imagine trying to find a bottle dropped from 70 feet is a bit tougher after it bounced.
Plus. any ground man stupid enough to get hit in the head in case you drop it by accident is probably stupid enough to get hit in the head by a branch too.
Though those are good points to bring up. It has to be easy, safe, and cost less.
Quote from: rebocardo on May 28, 2007, 06:17:49 PM
> What videos have you been watching?
From youtube.com
> but I have never hauled a running saw into a tree.
Everyone I have ever hired to climb trees for me have done it. I have watched many local tree services do the same thing. Myself, I wouldn't want a hot running saw behind me banging on my leg and I would be too afriad of knocking off the hand brake and then snagging the trigger. They are doing the climbing and getting paid $30 an hour, I let them do what they think is best.
> Propane bottles in your belt? Have you really thought this through?
Actually, yes. I gave propane as an example only because it is cheap and available so the infrastructure is there for easy refills and people already run propane powered equipment (fork lifts, full sized trucks, etc.)
You carry up cannsters the size of BB CO2 cannisters, if that, and not the size of a grill cannister. They would snap in and out with one hand. The idea is small and light and carried on a belt or band, enough for an hour's worth of work. Because the saw is not constantly running and easy to start and stop, it runs even less. Which saves on fuel and saw wear and tear.
You wouldn't toss the cannisters, you reuse them, and bring them down. I have lost wedges after a tree fell and the wedge spit out, I would imagine trying to find a bottle dropped from 70 feet is a bit tougher after it bounced.
Plus. any ground man stupid enough to get hit in the head in case you drop it by accident is probably stupid enough to get hit in the head by a branch too.
Ok ........ ::) I'll bite for a minute or two. Are you talking about a completly new motor or retrofitting an ms200 to run propane? It is fairly easy to convert a 4 stroke motor to run on natural gas or propane. On a 2 stroke how will the oil be introduced to the motor?
A small c02 cartridge is not refillable. What is the smallest readily available refillable propane tank?
Now we are still left with the problem of starting it. If we no longer have a pull cord to get the motor spinning how will we start it? A battery and starter will only make it heavier defeating the purpose.
A lot of this could be solved if the climbers would just shut the saw off. Once warmed up a saw will start on one pull. Sounds to me you are not hiring quality climbers.
Getting 2-stroke oil mixed with the propane would be difficult, or impossible. Would have to have an oil reservoir to use on two stroke - seems to me.
> Are you talking about a completly new motor
A different motor. Though would there be much of a difference between injecting oil in with the air charge instead of mixed with the oil? The way the two stroke works as far as I can tell (correct me on this) is it coats the cyl. on the downstroke/power stroke and then it dumps any unburned oil out on the upstroke along with the exhaust before it reaches the top. That is why you get so much carbon if your oil mixture is a bit on the generous side.
The basis of the idea would be eliminate burning the oil entirely. Oil burned with propane still smells and pollutes. Have a new light weight engine not confined to current 2 stroke design. Even if it means 4 stroke or another design.
> A small c02 cartridge is not refillable.
> What is the smallest readily available refillable propane tank?
It wouldn't matter, you use an adapter to refill from a normal sized tank that had an automatic pressure cutoff. The saw would come with enough small tanks to run full out for an hour.
> Now we are still left with the problem of starting it.
Nope, thought of that. Piezo electric ignition and springs (doesn't have to be steel either, can be a polymer or something such as carbon fiber) to start it.
> A battery and starter will only make it heavier defeating the purpose.
When you pull a starter cord what produces the spark and how much does it weigh?
I am thinking along the lines of doing away with the whole magneto idea.
> A lot of this could be solved if the climbers would just shut the saw off
Yes, but that is only part of the idea, the idea is to toss out all the old ideas of working with a saw based on 100 year old technology and make it cleaner, easier to use, and safer.
A design isn't safe, if people keep doing the same wrong thing, because they view the right way to do it harder. If you know what I mean.
With all these ideas, it might be a viable design in a year :D
good ideas, rebocardo.
Quote from: rebocardo on June 01, 2007, 06:43:45 PM
> A small c02 cartridge is not refillable.
> What is the smallest readily available refillable propane tank?
It wouldn't matter, you use an adapter to refill from a normal sized tank that had an automatic pressure cutoff. The saw would come with enough small tanks to run full out for an hour.
Who is filling the bottles, a propane refill station or are we doing it at home. In most cities they do not have refilling stations only exchange centers. So would we have to refill them at home? Sounds like alot of extra work every night. What about the legal issues?
> Now we are still left with the problem of starting it.
I am thinking along the lines of doing away with the whole magneto idea.
How would the saw stay running with out an ignition system? Engines that run on propane or natural gas still have an ignition system. Diesel is the only engine I know of that runs with out an ignition.
> A lot of this could be solved if the climbers would just shut the saw off
Yes, but that is only part of the idea, the idea is to toss out all the old ideas of working with a saw based on 100 year old technology and make it cleaner, easier to use, and safer.
A design isn't safe, if people keep doing the same wrong thing, because they view the right way to do it harder. If you know what I mean.
Maybe the design has stayed the same because it is safe and simple. If your climbers find it too difficult to shut a saw off and restart it, then I say you need to look for a better class of climbers.
Also, do you have any idea how much propane it would take to run a saw for 1 hour?
Anyone doing creative thinking will find that there are multitudes who will tell you that something can't be done before you run into one who says it might.
The only way to really find out is to try it.
When you put your remarks inside of the quoted area, it looks as if you had nothing to say.
Quote from: Tom on June 03, 2007, 01:26:37 PM
Anyone doing creative thinking will find that there are multitudes who will tell you that something can't be done before you run into one who says it might.
The only way to really find out is to try it.
When you put your remarks inside of the quoted area, it looks as if you had nothing to say.
I just think you would have a better chance of making a saw run on a Flux Capacitor than propane. Since I climb for a living I feel I'm a better judge of what would benefit me and what be more of a burden, than someone who does not climb.
Your experience might lead to some insight. Tell us about your ideas of using a Flux Capacitor. :)
Quote from: treeape on June 03, 2007, 03:29:16 PM
I just think you would have a better chance of making a saw run on a Flux Capacitor than propane. Since I climb for a living I feel I'm a better judge of what would benefit me and what be more of a burden, than someone who does not climb.
Ba ha ha ha! :D :D Flux capacitor chainsaw... does it run on Plutonium in the Back to the Future DElorean model, or dylithium chrystals as in the Star Trek model? I would prefer a fusion drive myself. Run it on Helium-3. A completely noiseless, endless power supply chainsaw. No messy sump oil or gasoline/oil mix.
As for a 4 stroke, you would need a sump for engine lubricating oil, and then there is an issue with position/angle of use. You would flood the piston with oil running it upside down. Huge advantage of 2 strokes is no sump for oil and they can be run in just about any position. Also more power in firing every cycle (no exhaust stroke wasted energy).
When I climbed I drop-started the saw in the tree and killed it before letting it dangle on the rope. Used a small TH Echo for limbing. Nothing like falling from a tree with a live chainsaw on a rope tethered to you. No thanks...
Now we're getting somewhere. You guys sure are smart. Yes, Fusion does sound like a viable energy source.
The problem with 2 strokes is that there is a contingent in this world that is dead-set on getting rid of 2 stroke technology and there are danged few people, other than existing manufacturers of 2 stroke engines, who are interested in devising something else, or a 2 stroke that operates with avoiding the environmentalists concerns.
It seems to me that there might be a possibility that users could come up with an alternate fuel, automatic ignition and lubrication system if all the possibilities were considered. It will take someone who will say "I wonder if this would work?" to eliminate all of the things that won't and still find the one that will.
Perhaps an answer could be found in doing away with the chainsaw altogether. You know, Airplanes have used "one shot" lubrication for years. If it were canola oil, what might be the possibilities there?
You might be better off getting the ideas of the equipment users and not just those that climb.
I'm waiting for the Light sabre model 8) stand back O...B wahn. :o
I kinda like the idea of a propane chainsaw for limited use. I wonder if it will really work?
I find the idea quite interesting myself. It will have to suck air to run, seems like it could suck oil at the same time. Careful what you disclose Rebocardo, you may be giving away your future fortunes.
I agree with LeeB.
> Careful what you disclose Rebocardo, you may be giving away your future fortunes
Plus, everyone else's because it can't be patented now because I disclosed it in public first. First disclosure counts and has invalidated many patents when brought to court ;)
Anyways, I don't have the money to build a working unit, except the propane part. That I might do for kicks. An idea is one thing, reliable and cheap production are others.
I have thought about getting rid of "lube" both for the engine and bar!
The bar is easier, except for cost, the engine is hard because of heat. Which is the reason for thinking along a propane line.
There are many self lubing plastics you could use as a laminate for a bar when they are in contact with each other. My thing is how to embed a steel cutter into a plastic carrier while ensuring the cutters do not coming flinging out when hitting a solid object (like a lag) that we all hit sooner or later.
As for climbing:
I don't race cars (anymore), but, that doesn't prevent me from building roll cages and engines for the ones that do. Especially if they ask for a better machine. I just had someone ask me to lift their 84 Buick after they saw my 4x4 off-road ad for trucks on Craigslist. Still thinking about that job ...
I have watched many people, including people I have paid to do the climbing, do things that just do not make sense, like climbing with a hot running saw bouncing off their legs, or worse, my saw bouncing off the tree, that they just shouldn't do.
Why can't a saw be made to be push button instant on and off, be lighter, and cleaner to run for a tree climber? Something cool running, light, that can be carried on a harness/belt, that doesn't need to be lowered down to refill or doesn't require the climber to come all the way back down to refill?
I think the thing to remember is probably not even 1/4 of the people climbing trees are as well trained as the climbers that have posted in this thread so far. I have found the input really helpful too, thank you!
You guys wouldn't do it, but, as an example, if I could find someone to pay me $100 for every picture of someone using a rope around their waist for a saw lanyard I might have a good paying day job :D
From what Kevin posted earlier and what I know about lanyards now, I don't climb trees, but, couldn't I design a chainsaw with a built in break away tab so when people tie a rope around their waist and then to a saw they are still protected?
I would even make it reusable, with maybe clips, so if the saw was recovered and usable after the fall from the tree, they wouldn't go tie a rope to the handle with the tab gone.
A tool needed for the ground is different then a tool needed 100 feet off the ground.
How about getting your saw caught in a kerf or wishing you could quickly change to a different sharp chain, or to a more aggressive full skip, or a different bar length? Wouldn't it be great, to press two buttons, slide the chain and bar out as an assembly, and slide a new bar and sharp chain right in and snap it in place onto a spring mounted gear?
How about if the spring did double time (small pun for clockmakers) as the assembly that got the saw started on propane without pulling?
Plug and play happened a long time ago, just not in chainsaws.
New engine, new design, easier, safer, more productive, cleaner. After seeing what people do, I just think there has to be a better way. :)
Quote from: rebocardo on June 04, 2007, 04:58:31 PM
From what Kevin posted earlier and what I know about lanyards now, I don't climb trees, but, couldn't I design a chainsaw with a built in break away tab so when people tie a rope around their waist and then to a saw they are still protected?
Do you mean something like this:
Buckingham Breakaway Chainsaw Lanyards
Bungee lanyard breaks away at 250 lb. shock load. Designed to prevent the climber being carried out of the tree by a falling load snagging on the chainsaw. NOT for chainsaws over 15 lbs
I also have a break away "Link" I can add to my Buck strap / lanyard that will break away. I mainly bought it for the times I am tied into a live tree, roof top, fire escape etc and I have to go out on limbs of dead trees that I am suspect of their integrity.
Yep.
essentally what your talking about is energy density.
How much energy can you pack into a tinny place?
There is no better power to weight ratio and engergy density (currently) than a 2 stroke gas powered motor.
engergy desnsity is higher in batteries, but you have a problem with power to weight ratio. WHich is why you ahve to look at both those items together.
Essentally if the propain or compressed CO2 was an option we would be seeing it used in cars (hybrids) long ago.
Remember its all about being able to pack the max amount of energy into as small and light weight space as possible.
Mechanical engergy storage can achive some fairly impressive stoarge numbers, but you have significant safty issues assocated with massively coiled springs, or rotating flywheels etc.
Your best hope at a "future" chain saw is a thin kerf chain on a lithium poly battery pack and electric motor. But you need the materials to build a lightweight composit chain that can support high tesion loads (carbon nanotubes) and inexpensive li-po bats. (they are also showing some promise in high desnity capacitors also)
I don't see the problem if some one climbing with running saw. It's called evolution or natural selection. I never did it.
I don't see a problem to start saw while on the tree. Just pull cord and its running. What is the problem???
Speaking of starting: they are many motors which are starting on compressed air. Yes you can use CO2 in bottle instead.
Talking about of most productive fuel commercially available and safe to use it's a diesel fuel. But as of today it's a fact most productive power to ratio is 2 stroke engines.
Speaking of clean fuel: H2 – hydrogen. Most clean and powerful burning fuel.
What ever you design it can't be heavier then MS200T with light bar. About 10lb.
If some one stupid enough to misuse chainsaw whey will misuse what ever you design. For example: cut its owned head with light sable.
Think of substitute climber with some kind of robot-spider, even controlled by human from ground.