35-50 hp Electric bandsaw logmill

[carykong]

Does anyone have knowledge or may provide a lead on anyone that owns and operates an electric bandsawmill like a Woodmizer or Baker within 200 miles of Richmond,Virginia? Very interested in observing one in operation.

[loganworks2]

Hi there. Give Woodmizer and Baker a call they will glady put you in touch with the closest ones.

[paul case]

I have got 2 but am not that close. I guess mine are not that big, only 15 and 25 hp. What do you want to know? Bibbyman made several videos of his 40 super electric on youtube.

PC

[tmbrcruiser]

I have a Baker 3650E in Bridgeville, Delaware and you are welcome to come by. Send me a PM it you want to stop by.

[carykong]

TCruzer
Call you call me please
7575321356
Thank you
Cary

[redprospector]

I have got 2 but am not that close. I guess mine are not that big, only 15 and 25 hp. What do you want to know? Bibbyman made several videos of his 40 super electric on youtube.

PC

How do you like the 15 compared to the 25? I've been toying with the idea of changing my b-20 over to electric.

[paul case]

I havn't got to fun the 25 much, but it whittles right on through. They both are real quiet in comparison. I think the 15 has at least as much power as the 25 hp Kohler that it replaced.

I LIKE EM!

PC

[redprospector]

Thanks,
I'm seriously considering going all electric (mill, hydraulic power pack, edger, chopsaw, log decks, and conveyors) and power it all with a 125 kw genset. One engine to maintain and feed instead of 6 or 7, and smoother power to boot.

[paul case]

Well you can put that genset somewhere behind a noise shield and not have to put up with the noise,

They say running on a genset or with a rotary converter you loose some of the advantage of electric, but I cant tell it. If you do this keep it simple and run on 230v 3 phase. They start easy and if you ever have electric service run to you it is simpler ( IS THAT A WORD?) for the electric co.

PC

[Kbeitz]

Well you can put that genset somewhere behind a noise shield and not have to put up with the noise,

They say running on a genset or with a rotary converter you loose some of the advantage of electric, but I cant tell it. If you do this keep it simple and run on 230v 3 phase. They start easy and if you ever have electric service run to you it is simpler ( IS THAT A WORD?) for the electric co.

PC

If it's a true rotary converter and not static you should loose nothing...

[killamplanes]

My b20 has 10hp electric and 3hp electric for hydros. I'm definitely under powere cutting 18in boards but with patience and a good blade I do it alot. I love the electric for stationary. When the gas motors wore out electric was the answer. Bet it's not far from the kohlers. Easy to adapt to electric. Get rid of 12volts up down find hydraulic motor for it you won't regret that either...

[redprospector]

My b20 has 10hp electric and 3hp electric for hydros. I'm definitely under powere cutting 18in boards but with patience and a good blade I do it alot. I love the electric for stationary. When the gas motors wore out electric was the answer. Bet it's not far from the kohlers. Easy to adapt to electric. Get rid of 12volts up down find hydraulic motor for it you won't regret that either...

Yep, hydraulic up & down is on my "short list".

[redprospector]

Well you can put that genset somewhere behind a noise shield and not have to put up with the noise,

They say running on a genset or with a rotary converter you loose some of the advantage of electric, but I cant tell it. If you do this keep it simple and run on 230v 3 phase. They start easy and if you ever have electric service run to you it is simpler ( IS THAT A WORD?) for the electric co.

PC

If I go through with it, the genset will be outside the shed in it's own vented building. The exhaust will be ran through the roof with a 90 pointing at the neighbor.  :D
Not sure how to change it to 230 volts. My Fastline has 480 volt motors, so I may have to stick with that.

[ozarkgem]

The 125 KW may be over kill. I run mine on a 20kw gen set with 2 Hyd power units and a 20hp on the head. But I don't have an edger or other stuff to run. Mine is very very fuel efficient. Less than a gal per hr. If you have electric or have it ran you can run 480 single phase and run a big phase converter.

[red]

I was thinking he needed a bigger GenSet to run it all . So maybe not running it all at once is a good idea. I'll just sit back and watch you big dogs figure it out.

[paul case]

460v may be ok for now but I would check with the utility co to see what is available.

A good friend of mine bought a couple phase converters made for 460v and found out that they are a lot different than 230volt and could not be changed?(I dont know about that one) anyway his local utility company ran him a new service and it is only 230 and would require a big transformer to get it to 460v. Meanwhile his 50 hp converter and his 40 hp electric edger sits with dust on them.
That is they put in a bigger single phase service so he could run a 50 hp rpc. It wont work because the converter he bought and the motor on his machine and the voltage of the service doesn't match up. His electrician said he needed a transformer that would cost mega$.
PC

[nativewolf]

This is a great thread.  Just wanted to say I feel like I'm in school :P

[TKehl]

I think the 15 has at least as much power as the 25 hp Kohler that it replaced.

That doesn't surprise me. 

1.  Combustion engines are generally nameplated at peak power which is at a certain RPM.  Electric motor nameplate HP is based on continuous output.  (This is more important for blower/compressor/vacuum skids I used to spec out for the last place I worked.  They need the low end torque to start and get up to speed.  Sawmills, less important.)

2.  Electric motors allow for a service factor that exceeds the nameplate HP for a short time without overheating.  (Think duty cycle on a welder.)  Great for milling with gigback and log loading allowing for some cooldown time.  Many service factors (SF on the nameplate) are 1.15-1.25.  Multiply the nameplate by SF to get max HP.  (15 HP with 1.25 SF = 18.75 peak HP)  Even the SF is conservative as it assumes something like 110°F ambient.  If it's cooler than that, the motor can put out more HP.  Also keep the dust off the motor to help it keep cool (and prevent fires).  Heat is the main enemy of electric motors.

[muggs]

A few notes of interest, since some of you seem to be interested in this subject. I run a part time motor shop. I have been building phase converters for around 30 years. I have built an electric motor dyno. In my experience motors run off of a phase converter do not put out full HP. But, the larger the phase converter is to the driven motor the closer you get to full HP. I tell people to double the size of the converter to the driven motor, sometimes 3 times. I also build large single phase motors [ over 10 HP] that will put out full HP. No phase converter needed for these. Also do not neglect wire size. I did an experiment with a 3 HP single phase motor, run on 240 V it put out a full 3 Hp. Run on 120 V It put out 2.3 Hp. The only difference was voltage drop. If you want to see a single phase motor that I built in action, go to the members web pages and check it out.    Muggs 8)

[bandmiller2]

I'am in Mr. Muggs shadow but a couple of suggestions if your going electric stay away from most of the pacific rim motors they are over rated and won't put out. I converted my band mill from a two cyl. Wisconsin gas, about 18 hp. to a Baldor 15 hp three phase, big difference. I run 1 1/2 bands and a hydraulic pump, scads of power and the motor never gets more than slightly warm. If you run electric you will be spoiled in short order. You can talk to helpers, hear the band cutting, no fumes and the legendary easy starting. Frank C.

[tmbrcruiser]

I think I may be an expert on how to start on one path and end up on another. My plan started with a Baker 3650E, 10 hp electric on the hydraulic feed, 20 hp electric on a Baker edger and 15 hp electric on the blower. The first electrical engineer spoke to Baker and the power company, came back with a plan. The power company would set a single phase 480 transformer and we would have one large rotary phase converter. Building went up, breaker panels were purchased a. outside disconnect near transformer b. 480 v single phase panel c. step down transformer to 220v./110v. d. single phase 220 panel e. three phase 480v. panel.

I was getting ready to order a large rotary phase converter when the power company said, oh by the way you will need a soft start on the 50 hp motor or you can add a VFD (variable frequency drive). Exit first electrical engineer, enter second electrical engineer.

Plan went to a VFD on the 50 hp, a second VFD on the 15 hp, and a smaller rotary phase converter to run the 10 hp and 20 hp. It was a ton of money up front but my electric bills are very low. I usually run the mill on Saturdays and after work two nights a week. The largest electric bill has been $126.00. Now that every thing is in and running I can't imagine not having electric.   

[fishfighter]

I havn't got to fun the 25 much, but it whittles right on through. They both are real quiet in comparison. I think the 15 has at least as much power as the 25 hp Kohler that it replaced.

I LIKE EM!

PC

What voltage motors are you using?

[woodworker9]

I think I may be an expert on how to start on one path and end up on another. My plan started with a Baker 3650E, 10 hp electric on the hydraulic feed, 20 hp electric on a Baker edger and 15 hp electric on the blower. The first electrical engineer spoke to Baker and the power company, came back with a plan. The power company would set a single phase 480 transformer and we would have one large rotary phase converter. Building went up, breaker panels were purchased a. outside disconnect near transformer b. 480 v single phase panel c. step down transformer to 220v./110v. d. single phase 220 panel e. three phase 480v. panel.

I was getting ready to order a large rotary phase converter when the power company said, oh by the way you will need a soft start on the 50 hp motor or you can add a VFD (variable frequency drive). Exit first electrical engineer, enter second electrical engineer.

Plan went to a VFD on the 50 hp, a second VFD on the 15 hp, and a smaller rotary phase converter to run the 10 hp and 20 hp. It was a ton of money up front but my electric bills are very low. I usually run the mill on Saturdays and after work two nights a week. The largest electric bill has been $126.00. Now that every thing is in and running I can't imagine not having electric.

The upfront costs on those very large VFD's had to be wickedly expensive.  I'm just curious how long it is going to take to recoup the up front equipment costs of them. 

I have been considering switching over my LT40 hydraulic to an electric motor, just to be able to move the sawmill inside and under cover.  I haven't done a full cost analysis of it yet, and I'm definitely not buying a new mill just to do it.  Other obvious considerations include a powerful air cleaner and a bigger dust collection system.

I do not have access to 3 phase power at my property, so I currently operate all my 3 phase machinery with 2 different RPC's from American Rotary.  Check them out if you're in the market.  Great company using American made components and their prices are quite reasonable.  A friend of mine just outfitted his entire shop with a 40 hp RPC from them that runs everything in the shop, including some very large metalworking machinery.

[paul case]

Fish,
230volt 3 phase. I run a 20hp converter for the 15 hp mill ans a 30 hp converter for the 25. I also run a 10 hp chopsaw off the 20 and  a 15 hp resaw from the 30.

Wood worker,
I switched the older,94 model, from gas to electric. The motor was $900 and the converter was $1600. I had to order a 3 groove taper lock pulley local that was over $100. That was before I found surpluscenter.com. Of course there are a few other expenses to it like a new drive belt and lead wire and throw switch.

I actually fitted my 15 hp electric motor to the lt40 by bolting it to 2 2x2 square tubes paralell to the motor and welding them down to the motor hinge plate on the mill. One of the tubes had to be notched in the front to miss the belt. This let me use the same length belt that the original onan 24 motor used. Pulley had to be a certian size and I don't remember what that was but I can find out for you. I can also put you in touch with my motor man if you dont have one or want to check his prices, just PM me.

The way I figured the payback on switching was that we were burning 5 gallons of gas per day at the time $3/gallon was $75 per week and $300/month. My Electric bill went up just about $40/ month when adding the mill. So that was a savings of $260 per month, not to mention a $15 oil change every month. The thing would pay for itself in 10 months.
Color me happy.

PC

[woodworker9]

Thanks for the information, Paul.  I would have thought that the VFD would have been more expensive for a motor that size.

I have a 20 hp RPC and a 10 Hp RPC for running my woodshop and metalworking shop.

Is 15 hp the right size motor to handle the power needs of the LT40?  If so, it would be an easy conversion for me, when I decide to move indoors with the mill.  I have to build the new building first, though.... :D

[paul case]

I don't have VFD just because they are more expensive.

They offered a 15 hp electric option back in 1994 when my old LT40hd was new.

It works well for me.

I did have to upgrade to the 97 or newer head lift motor as the little one just wasnt enough. I also put on a Pineywoods helper spring too.
PC

[fishfighter]

I saw only for myself. To have a 3 phase line dropped, that would cost an arm and a leg. :( Any idea of getting a electric motor strong enough that would run on 240V's?

[killamplanes]

Mines 240v single phase 10hp. That runs saw only hydros are another electric motor. It's not a power house but it gets the job done and I saw by myself and while it's running I'm slinging lumber of the deck as fast as I can move. It's really a perfect match for what I do. I use to make ties, now just pallet stock for my business.. I have 3 phase at my farm up the road so if I every get a resaw or somethin 3 phase I'll probly station it up there.

[killamplanes]

Mine can run hot if your pushing hard in the heat of the summer, mainly long logs where your in the wood without a break.. but I usually trip a breaker before it does :D

[fishfighter]

Mines 240v single phase 10hp. That runs saw only hydros are another electric motor. It's not a power house but it gets the job done and I saw by myself and while it's running I'm slinging lumber of the deck as fast as I can move. It's really a perfect match for what I do. I use to make ties, now just pallet stock for my business.. I have 3 phase at my farm up the road so if I every get a resaw or somethin 3 phase I'll probly station it up there.

Any pictures? Are you using a overhead cable tracking system for the power feed?

[paul case]

If you have 230volt and a big enough service to run a 100 amp breaker you can buy a rotary phase converter. It uses a 3 phase motor as a generator for the 3rd leg of 230volt.  You need one a little more hp than the motor you plan to run. Like on my old mill I run a 15hp and my RPC is a 20hp. Now that converter will run 2x as many motors as its own hp rating but the biggest it would start is a 20hp under no load.

There are a few ''rules'' on RPC use. They need to have less than 100 feet of lead from your transformer to them. There are a few others but none come to mind right now.

I purchased the 20 hp that I have and the 15hp motor for about the same as what a 25hp kohler conversion kit from woodmizer. However they need no gas and almost always start. IT may be a pain getting them fixed up to start but after that no oil changes and no hauling fuel to them an quiet.

10 hp single phase motors actually cost more than a 15 hp 3phase and the 3 phase motor will generally last longer. I have been told that the 3 phase motors actually cost less to run too.

PC

[redprospector]

I saw only for myself. To have a 3 phase line dropped, that would cost an arm and a leg. :( Any idea of getting a electric motor strong enough that would run on 240V's?

A few notes of interest, since some of you seem to be interested in this subject. I run a part time motor shop. I have been building phase converters for around 30 years. I have built an electric motor dyno. In my experience motors run off of a phase converter do not put out full HP. But, the larger the phase converter is to the driven motor the closer you get to full HP. I tell people to double the size of the converter to the driven motor, sometimes 3 times. I also build large single phase motors [ over 10 HP] that will put out full HP. No phase converter needed for these. Also do not neglect wire size. I did an experiment with a 3 HP single phase motor, run on 240 V it put out a full 3 Hp. Run on 120 V It put out 2.3 Hp. The only difference was voltage drop. If you want to see a single phase motor that I built in action, go to the members web pages and check it out.    Muggs 8)

I think muggs is making an option.

[woodworker9]

3 phase motors are indeed more efficient than single phase.  They are also more powerful, hp for hp.  What I mean to say is that an older 3 phase 10 hp motor is much more powerful than a new single phase 10 hp motor, and it runs smoother, quieter, and with less power consumption. 

I've done the "pepsi challenge" in my shop, and have swapped out machines that have single phase motors for 3 phase.  I usually can pay $100 or less for a 3 phase motor.  I built one of my rotary phase converters using a kit from American Rotary and my own 10 hp, 3 phase Baldor motor.  I bought it off of craigslist for $100 because it was "noisy."  All it needed was new bearings, which were $17 apiece.  Once you've done one, motors are extremely easy to open up, clean up, and change bearings.  Typically, all they need to run 100 years or so.  I've got a couple of 3 phase motors in my shop that are nearing their 100th birthdays, and with new bearings, they run smooth as silk.  One is an 800 lb. monster 15 hp motor that runs my 30" Whitney planer.  What a beast.

[woodworker9]

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that RPC's can be balanced with capacitors, and the more balanced they are, the better they operate.  As stated, I have 2 RPC's in the shop.

The bigger one, which is a 20 hp completely built and CNC balance rated by American Rotary, will start that monster 15 hp motor.  Some machines are harder to start than others.  For instance, compressor motors are notoriously difficult to start, so you would want at least a 2 to 1 ratio for running a 3 phase compressor.  Also, big 36" bandsaws are also harder to start, because your initial startup must get that big, heavy cast iron 36" wheel spinning. 

Before I got a bigger RPC, I used to start my 36" Tannewitz bandsaw by opening up the upper wheel, and giving it a hand spin to get it moving before hitting the "Start" button.  This eliminated alot of the initial startup problems, and I could run that 5 hp bandsaw with a 7.5 hp RPC.  Without the helping hand, it would just trip the breaker.

[pineywoods]

I've seen several home-made rpc's that use a small single phase motor belted to the rpc to get it started. Turn on the "pony" motor to get things started moving, then switch on the rpc. I bought a large lathe and a big old table saw, both with 3 phase motors. Happen to have a couple of 5 hp 3 phase motor handy and started to build an rpc. Backed off and replaced with single phase motors due to re-sale value. Just about can't give away 3 phase tools here..

[muggs]

I saw only for myself. To have a 3 phase line dropped, that would cost an arm and a leg. :( Any idea of getting a electric motor strong enough that would run on 240V's?

After looking at my website, I see the video is gone. [ I will have to fix that]. The video is of a 5 HP motor on a 16 inch Powermatic Planer. In the beginning it was a 3 phase motor run off of a 7.5 HP phase converter. When run off the converter, it brought the planer up to speed in 2.5 seconds. The same motor after being modified into a single phase motor, It brought the planer up to speed in 1.5 seconds. The motor on the dyno shows it putting out 5.9 HP I have 5 years time into developing these motors I have a 15 HP and a 20 HP sitting here, but nothing to put them on. If your mill is stationary and you have the electric service, Why use an internal combustion engine? Just do the arithmetic.    Muggs

[bandmiller2]

Muggs, I have messed around with motors single and three phase for many years and built rotary converters. I have never heard of converting three phase motors to single. If its a proprietary thing I understand but please tell more. It must be done with capacitors and or lead switching. Thanks Frank C.

[carykong]

Goin to see Tmbrcruiser's Baker 3650 later this month

[killamplanes]

There's my 10hp single phase. Very easy to replace gas motor on my tk. And yes it runs on an overhead pulley system with hydraulic lines to the up/down for head. I also agree 3 phas is better/quite etc. BUT around farm country here 10hp 240v 1 phase motors are as common as corn fields :D

[killamplanes]

Another view

[paul case]

I always like to see other peoples Ideas at work and mods that give me Ideas what to do and how to fix or get around certain issues.

What is the 1 gallon plastic jug hanging on the front of the mast?

PC

[killamplanes]

Well there's a story. Tk originally uses 12volts up/down for head. Never liked it. You would touuch the up down button and it would jump 1/2 inch on you thickness. It was hard to tune in board thickness. So put a hydraulic motor on it from I think a combine. Absolutely love it, and had to because no longer 12v without gas motors. BUT the 1 gallon jug catches a ever so small drip of hydraulic oil that the hydro motor has a 3rd line coming out of it. It should (in its original application ) returned to hydraulic tank. Believe me when I say this mill is highly MODIFIED, that's using a nice word..

[paul case]

 

PC

[redprospector]

Goin to see Tmbrcruiser's Baker 3650 later this month

Good deal! Let us know what you think.
I'm still weighing out the options. I grew up in a production wood shop and know the benefits of electric. But I've got a lot of other things to spend money on right now.
I've never ran a sawmill that wasn't gas powered. Electric sure sounds like a nice option.
Sorry we kinda took over your thread, but it's made for an educational conversation. 

[muggs]

Muggs, I have messed around with motors single and three phase for many years and built rotary converters. I have never heard of converting three phase motors to single. If its a proprietary thing I understand but please tell more. It must be done with capacitors and or lead switching. Thanks Frank C.

Hi Bandmiller Yes the info. is proprietary, but I can tell you this much. These are modified 3phase motors. When I am done with them. They are capacitor start and capacitor run 2 phase motors with soft start built into them, and you had better be able to rewind motors.     Muggs