Pressure Treated Poplar lumber

[WV Sawmiller]

   Does anyone have any experience as to pressure treating poplar lumber? Evidently we have a plant nearby who does treating for crossties and such and I have a new customer I'll be sawing for soon who asked about treating his poplar lumber and using it for in ground use. I don't remember ever hearing of anyone treating poplar but I assume since they PT pine and use it in the ground it should work. Any experience, thoughts, or suggestions on PT tulip poplar lumber for such use? Thanks.

[Southside]

Have sold quite a bit to a treatment plant that sells it into the horse fence market. Not a small operation by any means, so I would not be concerned to use it. 

[Will.K]

But the horse fence market uses poplar for boards, not posts. Horses like to eat those boards.

[firefighter ontheside]

Sounds like Koppers.  I'll ask a friend who works there if they treat poplar.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I found the site and will call them when they open. They are in Princeton WV and their name is not Koppers although they may use the same technique and chemicals.

[customsawyer]

All the ties I've cut over the years, poplar was the one hardwood they didn't want a tie out of.

[Tom King]

We have some treated Poplar split rail fence.  The rails are Poplar, but the posts are Pine.  Most of it is still good after 40 years.  I have had to replace a few of the rails.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I knew tie buyers would not accept poplar but my understanding was it was because of the strength of the wood rather than a durability issue. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Okay, I got through to the source about 25 miles away and the guy there said he did not think you would get enough penetration to make poplar useable for in ground treatment. He did say they treat some fence boards. They use creosote for ties and CCA for SYP fence posts and such. He said they can only use the CCA on SYP which does not naturally grow here - although it is common just a couple hundred miles south. He did indicate the wood would need at least some air drying to be a candidate for treatment. 

   He did ask for my contact info and says he gets calls for lumber and sawing and would refer interested parties to me so it still may have been a productive call. Actually I find all information useful. You just never know when or for what reason it may be helpful.

[kantuckid]

How is a native to WV & KY, shortleaf yellow pines wood different than SYP for PT purposes?
  In fact I've been sawing YP the past few days off my place. it is hard, heavy and strong. The tree I just sawed was a dandy, not that I'm PT it. It is found on higher places where it doesn't have to compete with other trees but I have several left ~ 30" dia down around 750' elev too.  
The Daniel Boone NF has had local poplar and pine PT previously and I took notice and had a bunch of it treated years ago. The plant mgr told me it could be air dried and be treat6able for both above and below ground treatments. I've told this story here at length before as it was a very pissy experience that had me tearing down a huge deck i'd built on our home. That treatment plant moved to Winchester, KY and now does Georgia-Pacific tagged PT lumber. Same owner, at least back when my problem showed up. 
Some of mine was OK and some fell apart off the ground, all was local YP, not poplar. Always seems to be pine below grade, never poplar. 
My shop is held up on 6x6 PT pine I sawed and had treated in the early 1980's, "knock on wood" :D 

[WV Sawmiller]

   I can't answer the shortleaf yellow pine PT question. I'd bet it would work fine if we had any. I can say I saw very, very little pine other than White pine so it is pretty much a moot point for me. My customer in this case has poplar we will be sawing this weekend and said he might have some oak if the poplar would not work. The treatment people told me they don't do oak wither other than creosoting ties and such. SYP was all the use the PT on. My suggestion to the customer was put in some concrete footers and build on top instead of putting it in the ground. I have built several pole barns for lumber and firewood storage but I used locust uprights.

[Southside]

Short leaf is considered Southern Yellow Pine. My guess is you are sawing Loblolly? All things being equal (ring spacing, site index, etc) there is no discernable difference between Short Leaf, Long Leaf, and Loblolly. Again, not comparing a longleaf with heart in it grown in Florida to a Loblolly on the northern end of Virginia. 

[Wudman]

One of my main customers saws 5/4 radial edge decking as their primary product.  For years, they would only saw shortleaf pine.  It was marketed as a "premium decking"  and was sold into the treating market.  I know that it can be treated.  They would pull the vertical grain stuff (from normal through and through sawing) into a separate "more premium" product.

The only thing that I can see for a below ground timber is that some of the slow growing Shortleaf may have dense rings that prevent adequate treatment at the core.  Maybe someone with actual treating experience could chime in.

Wudman  

[WV Sawmiller]

  I wish I could get into some of the SYP whether Slash, Loblolly, shortleaf or longleaf. White pine is about all I get.

[Wudman]

How much do you need?

[WV Sawmiller]

  Talk to my customers. :D Since I mostly do mobile sawing I just saws whatever they's got. ;) I am just envious of my counterparts a little further south who get those long straight stems with very little taper. 

[stavebuyer]

How is a native to WV & KY, shortleaf yellow pines wood different than SYP for PT purposes?
 In fact I've been sawing YP the past few days off my place. it is hard, heavy and strong. The tree I just sawed was a dandy, not that I'm PT it. It is found on higher places where it doesn't have to compete with other trees but I have several left ~ 30" dia down around 750' elev too.  
The Daniel Boone NF has had local poplar and pine PT previously and I took notice and had a bunch of it treated years ago. The plant mgr told me it could be air dried and be treat6able for both above and below ground treatments. I've told this story here at length before as it was a very pissy experience that had me tearing down a huge deck i'd built on our home. That treatment plant moved to Winchester, KY and now does Georgia-Pacific tagged PT lumber. Same owner, at least back when my problem showed up.
Some of mine was OK and some fell apart off the ground, all was local YP, not poplar. Always seems to be pine below grade, never poplar.
My shop is held up on 6x6 PT pine I sawed and had treated in the early 1980's, "knock on wood" :D

I think the treating operation you had trouble with had a reputation for "coloring" rather than pressure treating. Nothing to do with the species and a lot to do with the process or lack of it.

[mapleack]

  I can't answer the shortleaf yellow pine PT question. I'd bet it would work fine if we had any. I can say I saw very, very little pine other than White pine so it is pretty much a moot point for me. My customer in this case has poplar we will be sawing this weekend and said he might have some oak if the poplar would not work. The treatment people told me they don't do oak wither other than creosoting ties and such. SYP was all the use the PT on. My suggestion to the customer was put in some concrete footers and build on top instead of putting it in the ground. I have built several pole barns for lumber and firewood storage but I used locust uprights.

WV, lots of red pine gets pressure treated here in western PA.  It seems to hold up just fine. 

[WDH]

Red pine is in the yellow pine group. 

[Don P]

Hmmm, depends on how you are grouping.

No experience but I believe yellow poplar accepts treatment easily, I remember reports on the USFPL website.

[kantuckid]

Short leaf is considered Southern Yellow Pine. My guess is you are sawing Loblolly? All things being equal (ring spacing, site index, etc) there is no discernable difference between Short Leaf, Long Leaf, and Loblolly. Again, not comparing a longleaf with heart in it grown in Florida to a Loblolly on the northern end of Virginia.

The tree I've been sawing here in KY is shortleaf as the needles are too short for Lob :Dly.
 I took a curious look at some when looking at the small top log that decided to bust in the long fall downhill when I dropped it. 

[chet]

I have had Red Pine CCA treated with good results, with knot areas sometimes having trouble accepting treatment. Also treated Basswood with CCA and have had fantastic results with that. It takes treatment extremely well. I've used the Basswood in both ground contact applications and in ground applications. Some has been in for over 25 years , and still looks like the day I put it in.

[kantuckid]

Knots don't rot fast enough untreated? :D PT doesn't go into any knots only a partial penetration into the wood thus any saw cuts are treated during building.
 Ozmose (used to have?)  had a by mail PT wood course for free that I once used with my Vo-Tech students, many moons ago. Weekly lessons, mail in and graded and returned and the student got a PT Diploma! 

[Trackerbuddy]

it’s a small world. I bought some of that pressure treated yellow poplar for horse fences from that guy in eastern Kentucky. It’s not holding up the best.
In a big box store  I’ve seen pressure-treated white pine or red pine It was hard to tell it was green. They'll use anything  to make those pressure-treated dogeared fence boards.

[Southside]

There is a new "clear" colored treat on the market now and I have not heard much good about it. 

[Trackerbuddy]

Species of yellow pine make a 90% of the lumber longleaf pine shortleaf pine slash pop pine and loblolly pine.
Six minor species may be mixed in they are pitch pine, pond pine, spruce Pine, table Mountain Pine, and Virginia pine.
It reminds me of the 40 species of ash that are considered either green or white

[chet]

Knots don't rot fast enough untreated? :D PT doesn't go into any knots only a partial penetration into the wood thus any saw cuts are treated during building.
Ozmose (used to have?)  had a by mail PT wood course for free that I once used with my Vo-Tech students, many moons ago. Weekly lessons, mail in and graded and returned and the student got a PT Diploma!

My treatment guy must be a real over achiever.  Even the 6x6's and 6x8's are GREEN right to da center.   CCA 6.0

[Don P]

There are a number of formulations now that CCA is basically off limits to most folks. Your eye is not the best gauge of treatment anymore. ACQ is still green (copper is the green), MCQ is usually quite light colored... and an alphabet soup of others at various concentrations. Back in the day I've gotten CCA not at .60 lbs per cubic foot but at 2.5 lbs/cu ft green to the bone for marine  . Pine heartwood and knots don't take reatment because the cells are full of extractives, some woods are not easily penetrated, out west dougfir is incised to help get the juice in.

[Will.K]

Yes. Many treated fenceposts we've been using have deep green, but are rotting at ground level within a few years.

[chet]

Don, the facility I used still uses CCA.  What keeps them running is ongoing contracts with state highway departments for guardrail and sign posts, and some marine contracts. They can legally treat timbers and posts for me and also "some" dimensional stock for certain farm uses.  My stuff must always be thrown in with da marine stuff. ;D

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/270_0.pdf





This was just taken of a CCA treated Basswood 4x6 post on one of my lumber sheds that was built in 1996.

[WV Sawmiller]

  I can't answer the shortleaf yellow pine PT question. I'd bet it would work fine if we had any. I can say I saw very, very little pine other than White pine so it is pretty much a moot point for me. My customer in this case has poplar we will be sawing this weekend and said he might have some oak if the poplar would not work. The treatment people told me they don't do oak wither other than creosoting ties and such. SYP was all the use the PT on. My suggestion to the customer was put in some concrete footers and build on top instead of putting it in the ground. I have built several pole barns for lumber and firewood storage but I used locust uprights.

WV, lots of red pine gets pressure treated here in western PA.  It seems to hold up just fine.

Great info except ... in addition to the shortleaf pine I mentioned above that I don't have, I also don't have any red pine. In fact, I have no indication the customer has any pine at all. I will find out tomorrow as I am starting the mobile sawing job then. Good info but beginning to wander a little off track.

[Don P]

Good info but beginning to wander a little off track.

Us wander off track?

[chet]

Not once, did we even slightly hint at food. :D   But now that I think of it, da pic above does make me hungry for some mint ice crème. ;)

[Southside]

Chickens..

[WV Sawmiller]

   I'm waiting on someone to suggest some pistachio colored pine nuts. :D

[chet]

  I'm waiting on someone to suggest some pistachio colored pine nuts. :D

Naw, dem git stuck in my teeth.  :(

[kantuckid]

it's a small world. I bought some of that pressure treated yellow poplar for horse fences from that guy in eastern Kentucky. It's not holding up the best.
In a big box store  I've seen pressure-treated white pine or red pine It was hard to tell it was green. They'll use anything  to make those pressure-treated dogeared fence boards.

Do you mean the plant in Winchester, KY that was previously owned by same guy in Mt. Sterling, KY and moved ? When I confronted him with my deck that was a loss from poor treatment his secretary jumped to his side saying she'd worked there since it began and the only wood she'd ever heard of failing was PT that was the top plank on a horse farm fence that had been chewed past the treatment zone. In my area 1x6x16 oak is or was a very common market and at least in the past there were fence plank brokers who handled those sales from smaller mills. I have no idea if the horse farms just west of us in the Bluegrass area buy PT or oak now? I can attest that whatever it is they still paint it with black/white barn paint. 
Side note: I've mentioned this before but the horse industry here in KY gets huge press and PR as does bourbon whiskey but truth be known the timber industry far exceeds both of those combined in economic total $$$'s and virtually never ever mentioned in the media. It's little wonder there's very little forestry funding as it's the secret industry?
Plus KY still has not much for end product wood industry like Hickory, NC, etc. where furniture gets made-meanwhile we ship the bigger profits to Euros & China. 
Back to PT poplar...  

[kantuckid]

  I can't answer the shortleaf yellow pine PT question. I'd bet it would work fine if we had any. I can say I saw very, very little pine other than White pine so it is pretty much a moot point for me. My customer in this case has poplar we will be sawing this weekend and said he might have some oak if the poplar would not work. The treatment people told me they don't do oak wither other than creosoting ties and such. SYP was all the use the PT on. My suggestion to the customer was put in some concrete footers and build on top instead of putting it in the ground. I have built several pole barns for lumber and firewood storage but I used locust uprights.

WV, lots of red pine gets pressure treated here in western PA.  It seems to hold up just fine.

Great info except ... in addition to the shortleaf pine I mentioned above that I don't have, I also don't have any red pine. In fact, I have no indication the customer has any pine at all. I will find out tomorrow as I am starting the mobile sawing job then. Good info but beginning to wander a little off track.

Really? :D  I guess we could all live well on google info. ;D (Even further off base :D  did you read? that the last living WWII MOH recipient is the Iwo Jima Marine, the oldest died recently and in todays news.

[WV Sawmiller]

  No I did not read that. I went to a funeral Monday for a neighbor who died 8 April one moth to the day short of his 102 birthday. He was driving, running his tractor and baling hay up until he had blood clots well after his 99th birthday. He took a truckload of medical supplies across the Burma Road in WWII when they first opened the road. He was buried in his WWII era Army uniform. Our town was named after his grandfather.

[chet]

 I brought up Basswood (linden) as it seems to be somewhat like your Yellow Poplar. Being from da Great White North that's only a guess as I've never seen Yellow Poplar :D. The reason I mentioned the CCA treatment, is you said the plant treats cross ties.  If indeed that is what they are using, your customer would be very limited with what he could treat and what he could legally use it for (refer to the link).
All that said, if Yellow Poplar treats like Basswood and that's the treatment and that's his plan of use he's golden.  ;D

[kantuckid]

I have been offensive in my above comments towards pine knots and the extent of PT as to how far it enters pine in treatment.
 I apologize here to Chet who works in this area of wood processing. 

I will say toward basswood that it's so soft & weak I cannot imagine the basis for PT that species as it has no structural value as does Yellow Poplar. 
 Sure great whittling wood, maybe the best of them all. 

Howard, my FIL, dead since 1980, went from E KY to a MT CCC camp in the Bitteroot Mtns. running telephone/telegraph lines on horseback to the US Army Air Corp and flew as crew the Burma Hump the entire thing, after time in China before WWII during Japanese occupation. We've lost many heroes from that past.