measuring tape

[L. Wakefield]

   OK, I just searched around and I guess I never asked back along just where one may purchase one of those excellent measuring tapes like I saw the forestor down in WV use. It was a steel tape with inches on one side and a scale that read in diameter on the other side. I need to do a survey here and figger just how many trees I could be sawing- and when- if I did take the step of buying a sawmill. I hate that feeling of being 'all dressed up and no place to go'. It begs the question of if I have a market or a use for the wood (I don't..yet)- but I mean, it's WOOD- doesn't grow on trees, you know, or..er.... :  It's my typical timid rabbit style to buy the tape for a few bux before I put bigger bux in a mill...  lw

[Ron Wenrich]

Ben Meadows and Forestry Suppliers are 2 that come to mind.  You can find them in the "Links" page:

https://forestryforum.com/directory/Forestry_Equipment.shtml

[Frank_Pender]

You might also find one at your local chainsaw supply, LW.  If not, let me know and I will send one to you from the Far West.  They run me about $25.00 for a 50' model.

[L. Wakefield]

   Thanx for the refs, Frank. I'd tried search but guess I didn't use the right terms. I bookmarked the 1st 2 you mentioned.. I'll get around tuit.. I had to laugh when I looked at the lefthand side of the Forestry Suppliers homepage and they had a 'log in' selection- means something a little bit different than the logs I wuz thinking about.     lw

[Ron Wenrich]

If you're going to do a survey, you might want to consider getting an angle guage.  I prefer them over a prism, they're cheap, and almost indistructable.  Here's my preference:

http://www.benmeadows.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=1312&parent_id=289

If you want, I will help you design a cruise, help you crunch the numbers, and do some analysis.  I'd like something I could do on line, to teach others how its done.  

You supply the time and the trees.  Could be a good learning experience.

[Saki]

Greetings. Might also try a " biltmore " stick. Also sometimes called a tree measuring stick. Uses the principle of triangles and line of sight to get you a pretty close diameter estimate. The ones I have used here in Indiana also have a log estimater, and a board ft estimater all on one stick. is normally made out of hard maple about 1/2 thick 1&1/2 wide and 2 feet long. Gives you all your estimates in a really quick operation. Doyle 12 foot logs is what most of them are made to use here, but others may be available. Forestry suppliers would probably have them also if memory serves. Also very handy for knocking down stinging nettle ( here in our river bottoms those stupid things get axle deep to a ferris wheel ) :D :D :D and persuading the occasional stray dog that you won't taste good.If you do a search and don't find one and are interested, post a note to me and I will try to scare up a resource. :P Believe our local district foresters used to have them for sale, and that is where I bought mine. They also used to have a maple cane that had the same stuff on it. Very handy if you are in really rough terrain. Saki

[Ron Scott]

Don't forget the compass!

Ron,
Good idea on providing a cruise design.

[L. Wakefield]

   Thank all y'all for the help and suggestions. I think we talked about the biltmore stick back along when we were talking about guesstimating tree height. The prism vs angle gauge is a bit past the level that I want to get into just yet. The forestor showed me some of that when he drew up the plan, and the plan already specifies in what area to cut first etc.

   What I want to do right now is to walk to easily gotten trees and think about the diam and the likely wood to be had from it/them. I just know that the first cut off this place will be too weeny for anyone commercial to be interested in. I get the distinct impression that I'd have to pay them to do it the way I want and take the stuff off my hands to keep the tax status of tree farm- or I'll have to let them do it how they want, rather than how I want, so it's 'worth it' for them) (*I'm* not pessimistic today, mmm?)

   And I wouldn't blame a commercial feller for feeling that way. No one can make any money with a tree here, a tree there, and a picky owner after them. So I feel that I may as well look into doing it myself. I have another 5 years to get things into a semblance of compliance.   lw

[RobK]

Ben Meadows has Biltmore sticks, cruise sticks, etc. Go to their website, www.benmeadows.com, and request a free catalog. Lots of nifty stuff in there.

[C_Miller]

I just got a biltmore stick to start doing fieldwork and boy is it fun.

tree height, diameter ,standing log scale and log scale.

Its 32" long I was wondering is there some way to attach a gizmach to use it for measuring basal are too?

[Ron Wenrich]

Go over to the knowledge base and look up the timber cruise under forestry.  Here is the equipment list link:

https://forestryforum.com/tips/tips.cgi?display:1010359123-3833.txt

You need a 1:33 ratio, so a 1" target attached to the end of the biltmore should work.  I still prefer the angle guage and diameter tape.  

One of the first jobs I had was to figure out why we got such a big underrun from a consulting forester's sale.  He used a biltmore stick.  

As I followed him around, he would measure a tree, then call out the diameter to his aide.  I would go up and measure the same tree, when he wasn't looking.  He over shot most trees by 2 - 4".  And, he measured trees at midslope, instead of the high side of the tree.  

The biltmore should work well for you, since you aren't looking to sell timber.  I will put my offer out to you to help design a cruise, crunch numbers, and do some analysis in this forum.

[Tom]

OK, guys.  I can sense some really good stuff coming out of this and will be watching close.   I'm excited, like signing up for a class in a subject that I like.  I'm gonna learn something!    Yee Hi-i-i-i--i

[Ron Scott]

Yes, one needs to use the biltmore stick properly in measuring trees. Periodically check your measurements with a diameter tape. They should be the same. If not, you are not placing and sighting the stick properly.

[C_Miller]

Ron

I'm finding myself moving toward plantation thinning.

There are a lot of small (<10acres) woodlots planted in the 30's-50's that have never been touched.

So the big question is always how much to thin. I've downloaded your how to do a point cruise etc. but still have questions.

my concept of basal area is vague at best.  i understand it to be the volume of wood per acre.  and if that volume is too great there needs to be a thinning.

I have a stand of red pine that I was asked to clear cut. if I were to just do a thinning where would I start to determine how much to thin?

[Ron Wenrich]

Basal area is usually given in sq ft/acre.  It is the cross sectional volume of wood at breast height.  

Don't let that definition scare you.  You can do all kinds of things with an angle guage or prism.  In addition to volume, you can also figure out how many trees per acre, stocking density, and how much good wood or poor wood is growing.

When you get to a point, you simply use you guage, and determine which trees you want to count.  If you are using a guage with a factor of 10, then each tree counted represents 10 sq ft.  Your 1 inch target at the end of your biltmore will give youe that.

Trees that appear larger than your target, you count.  Those smaller, you disgregard.

There are 3 different levels of stand density - under stocked (less than 58% stocking density), fully stocked and over stocked (100% stocking density).  You are looking to maintain the stand above the fully stocked level.  Otherwise, you are inviting hardwood growth in the understory.  If you are not at the end of the rotation, that isn't what you necessarily want.

When you get to the overstocked level, growth will stagnate.

Those levels are determined by the average diameter.  Since you are looking at plantations, your diameters should fall into a narrow range.  But, a preliminary cruise will give you an even better idea.

For a stand with a 12" avg diameter, the overstocked level is a BA of 260, the fully stocked level is 140.  You don't want to fall below that level.  This is only for pines, don't transfer this to hardwoods.

So, you get to a spot where you want to thin.  You take your plot and count 14 trees you want to keep (could be more), then remove the rest.  

Your first trees out should be those that are surpressed or over topped or trees that have defect.  Then you remove trees that will allow for crown expansion of your crop trees.  

As you move through the stand, you can keep on taking plots to keep yourself honest.

Give me an average diameter, then I can give you your fully stocked and over stocked levels.

[Ron Scott]

Is your red pine in well defined rows? If so, at what spacing or how far between rows?

[L. Wakefield]

   OK, you got my interest now. The forestor had shown me what I guess was a orism guage- it worked kind of like my  rangefinder in that (IIRC) the ones you counted were in focus or not a split image. But I was kinda muzzy-headed as he was explaining.

   I can see this is just like any other large task- you do one section at a time, one tree at a time. But there is a system to it.

   I have a great weakness for hardcopy. Do any of y'all have good forestry text(s) to recommend on this that I could go to U of M or U Conn or somewhere and buy 'the book'? (Or Amazon.com) I don't mind paying a c-note or thereabouts for a reference that's solid gold when it comes to use. As long as there are trees and forest management, I know it won't be entirely out of date. (I may have asked this question before- if so I apologize. I can be an airhead sometimes.)

   It's like the old 'ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping'. It is ancient but still timely and thank God there are still old copies around. I was very fortunate to get hold of one.  :P  lw

[Ron Scott]

Check with the University Extension Services. They should have a publication that explains basal area etc.

The Minnesota Extension Service has a good book for landowners titled  Woodland Stewardhip; A Practical Guide For Midwestern Landowners.

To get a copy contact the Minnesota Extension Service Distibution Center, University of Minnesota, 20 Coffey Hall, St. Paul, MN 55108. phone 612-625-8173.

[L. Wakefield]

   Thank you for the info, Ron. LW

[C_Miller]

This particular stand is small<2 acres and the stems are in well defined rows which is why I'll start with this one. its easy to get to(time being the main problem) and will fit on my graph paper easier.

what I understand to do is pick a point, then looking thru my target of 1" thirty three inches away count all the trees that are bigger than, every other tree the same size and none of the trees that are smaller than the target. this will give me Basal area.

now the puzzlement ,
 to find out type and volume of specific trees do I count the trees that are part of the Basal count or all the trees or something different?

C

[Ron Wenrich]

The first thing to remember is that the larger the tree, the further away from the sample point it will be and still be counted.  The ratio of 1:33 that we use means that a 1' dbh tree can be a maximum of 33' from the sample point, and a 2' dbh tree can be a maximum of 66' from the sample point.

I wish there was a magic bullet that you could say that each tree represented a set amount of footage, but I can't.  Diameter, tree height, log scale and form class will cause the footage to vary widely.

Since you are working in plantations, you may be able to get away with making an average volume per tree counted.  Diameters should fall into a narrow range, so your variation wouldn't be that drastic.  You would just alter the volume by the height.

Each tree counted represents a certain number of trees per acre.  Here is the number

Dbh    Trees/acre
4       114.6
6         50.9
8         28.7
10       18.3
12       12.7
14        9.4
16        7.2
18        5.7
20        4.6
22        3.8
24        3.2

Just multiply the volume in the counted tree by the number of trees per acre to come up with the amount of volume it represents.

For example, if you have an 18" - 1 log tree; it would represent 570 board feet/acre on the Doyle scale.

When you add your volumes together, make sure you divide by the number of plots; then multiply by the total acres.  

I like to do 1 plot/acre.  I have run plot cruises up against my marking and have come very close - within a few %.  Sure makes estimates a lot easier.