Converting my garage to a woodworking shop, question on (green) pine for walls?

[Piston]

I have an oversized 1 car garage that I would like to convert into a work space.
It's currently unheated with no insulation and poor electric.  The walls are nothing but studs and exterior sheathing, so it's a good time for me to redo the electric, before I close in the walls.

The garage is 18'X22' and sort of a saltbox style.  My plan is to rip out all the old electric, as it is nowhere near up to code, and re wire the entire garage, then insulate, install a vapor barrior, and use horizontal pine boards for the interior wall sheathing. 

I don't have any dry pine boards.  I would have to cut down some pines, and mill them into boards to use.  Only problem is they would be green.  My question is, can I do this without running into mold problems? 

My idea is to mill the boards to a thickness of 7/8", then plane them down to 3/4" (easier to clean and won't trap as much dust as rough cut-This will be primarily a woodworking shop for me).  Then, install the boards either nailing or screwing them in.  I don't mind if gaps develop from drying in place. 

Would this cause any problems?  My thinking was that with a vapor barrier behind the boards, they could dry in place on the wall without causing moisture problems, and I could start building work benches and hanging cabinets on the wall this winter, rather than milling them now, air drying, and putting the boards up next year. 

Or, am I just asking for trouble using green pine? 

[Magicman]

A green 1X12" SYP will shrink approximately ¾".  If you nailed them up green and each board shrunk 3/8" from the center, you still have a ¾" gap between boards.  If your nails/screws are toward the board edges, they are going to split somewhere.

I would consider sawing them now and getting all of the dying possible before nailing/screwing them up.

[beenthere]

Over the insulation and vapor barrier, I'd just put on 1/2" drywall. Cheaper, quicker, better.........

Or delay adding the pine boards until after they have been stickered and air dry in your garage.

How soon do you think you will have pine boards sawn?

[Piston]

I would consider sawing them now and getting all of the dying possible before nailing/screwing them up.

That is certainly the best idea, but I really just can't wait any longer  :D
If I don't end up doing the pine, I'll do the walls in drywall but I really hate to do that. 

What if I milled all 1x4's and nailed them in the center?  I realize either way they will shrink, but narrower boards obviously would shrink a lot less.  Then again, I suppose I may get a lot of cupped boards that way.  Maybe this isn't such a good idea  :D

Over the insulation and vapor barrier, I'd just put on 1/2" drywall. Cheaper, quicker, better.........

Or delay adding the pine boards until after they have been stickered and air dry in your garage.

How soon do you think you will have pine boards sawn?

I really (really, really, really) hate drywall, especially 1/2".  I like the ability to bang a nail into my wall and hang whatever I want, without worrying about hitting a stud.  I absolutely hate joint compound and don't even get me started on sanding it down and painting  :D :D :D

I would be milling the boards prior to starting on this project.  If I did use green boards, do you think I would I have a problem with mold or moisture?  That is really my main concern. 

[beenthere]

I think you would get mold behind the green boards.
If you would strip the studs to act like a sticker, then air would circulate up behind the boards. Whether enough, don't know.

[tyb525]

Drywall doesn't fare well in unheated/cooled spaces, and won't take any abuse in a workshop. With the pine you can put a shelf anywhere, not just where the studs are. Add in mudding, sanding, and painting, and the time spent may not be much less than using the pine.

I would skip the vapor barrier and nail them up after drying a few weeks. You could chink the cracks if they are a problem, or put battens over them later on if needed. I really don't think you need a plastic vapor barrier for a workshop, unless this will be living space that is heated year round. The paper backing on the insulation and the wood sheating on both sides should be plenty, and it will prevent mold by letting any moisture left dry out, whereas a vapor barrier will trap it and cause mold/rot.

[Ianab]

Personally I'd want the boards at least partly dry before nailing them up, especially if you are putting a vapour barrier behind them. Pine is almost certain to grow something if it can't dry quickly.

On the other hand, at least it dries quickly, and wont need to be fully dry, just under 20% or so where the mould and mushrooms wont grow any more. Should only take a couple of months. You can finish the drying in place, as long as you aren't worried about the gaps.

Ian

[LeeB]

If you can get it down to 20%, there shouldn't be any gaps.

[thecfarm]

Will Pine really dry below freezing? I suppose you are using white pine. Is this garage attached to your house? I was thinking of one of those salamander heaters that run on kero to help out with the drying,if not attached to your house. I would use wood too. Put two boards together and you will be just about be able to put your finger between the boards,when put up green.

[muddstopper]

You could always build a leanto kiln, add a barrel stove and dry the wood that way. For just a temporary kiln, you could enclose with plastic or one of those blue tarps. Just keep the barrel stove far enough away from the plastic or tarp so it doesnt catch fire or melt.

Personally, i wouldnt use 12in boards as they will cup enough to pull the nails out of the studs they are nailed to. Mill the wood to at least 6inch, 4in is even better. 8in would work and look good if nailed vertical and you use 2in batten strips to conceal the cracks.

To address the mold issue, I dont know how much or any mold might accummilate with and indoor application. I can say that my current house was built out of whitepine my dad and I cut and had sawed. The exterior sideing was 12in boards, board and batten style. The house was wrapped in plastic and then sheathed with one inch lumber with an additional sheeting of white styrofoam sheets. The board and batten was then applied on top of that. After about 10 or 12 years and because of poor framing around some windows. I began to experience rot. I stripped all the siding off the house and the back side of the lumber was just as white as the day it was sawed. Zero mold. I saved the boards and used them for all kinds of projects around the house.

[Sprucegum]

Use tarpaper for your vapor barrier - it will wick away the moisture. For a few bucks more get rock wool insulation instead of that pink fiberglass stuff. The fiberglass holds moisture and encourages mold whereas the the roxul won't.

[DeepWoods]

I don't know what the price is for a sheet of OSB is in your area.  But at the time I was covering the interior walls in my shop, it was the same price as drywall.  It gives you the ability to nail anywhere in between studs.  No mudding or sanding required.  I also used it on my ceiling.  It does take more paint to cover, but I only put one coat of white on the ceiling before hanging and it reflects light quite well.  Also by painting it before installing, there is no drips or spatter to worry about. 

If I were to use pine, I would wait till it had dried some, as I think your final look would be better.  Especially if using wide boards.  I have some 16 inch wide pine that will be used for siding, but it only stays flat if dried first. 

I thought the same thing when I was building my shop, use something I cut and made.  Truth is, OSB goes up quick, and in the long run, I can't produce and install pine as quick and as cheap as the OSB did. 

[Chuck White]

To offset any shrinkage problems with the boards used for sheathing, you might want to try "reverse board and batton", it looks good and provides you with a flat wall.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Planing green wood is a pain and I find that EWP shrinks very little in drying.
My 34X64 shop is all osb and painted white (second time after 15 years)
Painted the sheets the first coat the first time before installation.
Put a nail/drywall screw anywhere and the white walls and ceiling make the shop very well lit
Pete

[red]

2 X 6 Studs definately Sheetrock maybe two layers

[Piston]

I was really intending on using green pine boards for this project, since I don't care about gaps, but now since pretty much everyone agrees that it isn't a great idea, I think you've changed my mind. 

I haven't taken any kind of 'inventory' but I have a fair amount of dry 2x random width boards that I milled for my grandfathers barn floor, they've been airdrying for a couple years.  I suppose I could bring myself to use those boards and mill some new ones for his barn, since I won't be getting to that anytime soon.

My whole reason for "rushing" this project is because my wife wants me to do some 'home improvement' projects, and I told her that I really want to get a shop together before carrying on with any projects.  Right now, I really don't have a place to do my work, I have to go up the street to my father's garage to use my own table saw and nice miter saw, that is really annoying! 

I want to be able to get to the point where I can have some workbenches in my garage.  So maybe what I could do is use the pine that I've already milled, and is dry, and nail that up just high enough up the wall to where I would have my workbench, so 36-40" or so.  Then I could air dry the pine that I can mill next month for the remainder of the walls, since I won't have enough dry boards to finish.  At least that way I could start building some work benches and put storage under them. 

Any more advice/recommendations on a vapor barrier?  Tar paper, plastic, none?  I do plan on adding heat to the garage for next winter, which is why I'm insulating it now. 

Someone asked about it being attached, no it is not attached to the house, it's about 6' away or so.  I've used one of those torpedo heaters in there before to take the chill off.  Also I didn't mention that I have a window on each (opposite) wall and can leave those open through the winter to allow adequate ventilation if it made a difference. 

I really like Chuck White's idea of adding strapping between the boards and studs to allow more ventilation. 

Here is one last attempt to use my green boards:  :D
What if I put up horizontal strapping on the studs, then put vertical green boards on the walls just high enough to put up a workbench in front of it, so 38" or so (not the whole wall) and leave a 2" space at the bottome, so air could get behind the boards at the bottom and ventilate through the top, sort of like vertical drying.  As mentioned, I don't care much about the gaps, but to minimize them I could use 1x4, or 1x6's.   ???

Thanks for all your advice, I'd rather you guys tell me how stupid of an idea it is and not do it, than go ahead and put up green boards without asking, only to run into trouble down the road.  ;D ;)

[Magicman]

You could go ahead and put it up green as you first mentioned, and nail/screw only through the board centers, leaving a ¼" gap between the boards.  Several fans and a dehumidifier should move enough air to dissipate the moisture.  In 6 months or so, nail/screw the board edges and then add a ¾" strip as chinking between the boards.

[Holmes]

Is your dads garage heated? Can you cut your boards ,sticker stack them in his garage and torpedo heat them for a long weekend?  You could get some of the moisture out and use them as you want. Just a thought...

[LeeB]

I say put up tar paper, then horizontal firring strips. Put up your fresh sawn pine boards, allowing as much if any time possible for it to dry some, nailing in the center as MM suggested. Next summer you can put battens over the gaps or not as you see fit. I would go with 8" max width boards. 6" would probably be better and use good sawing practice to minmize movement.

[beenthere]

Piston
Do you have a thickness planer that will be in the new shop?

[tyb525]

Eastern White Pine shrinks relatively little compared to some other species. If the pine is q-sawn, it shrinks about 2.1% from green to kiln-dry, and about 6.1% if flatsawn. That's a gap of 5/32" in a 12" wide flatsawn board - not nearly big enough to stick your finger in. Quartersawn or rift-sawn will have less shrinkage. I assume your boards won't be nearly as wide as 12", so the gap would be even less in that case.

Personally I would insulate your garage, then sticker the wood in it for a couple weeks with a fan blowing on the stack and a heater keeping the temps at 45 deg or above. This should accomplish a lot of drying, and at that point if you put it up there should not be much shrinkage.

If you put the wood up tight at 6-8% MC in the winter, you will have big problems in the summer when the MC goes up (as it does in all wood, KD or AD) and the boards swell and try to expand. Especially if you don't have the shop cooled daily during the summer.

I don't know why people are knocking your idea, because many people have done it. As someone who hangs drywall at least once a week, I would not hesitate to put some pine up in my workshop.

Also, if you mill them at 7/8" you should be able to plane most of them down to 3/4" smooth on at least one side, the other side might still have a few rough spots, but for what you're doing it sounds like it won't be too much of a problem.

[Jim_Rogers]

The only problem with sticking the pine in the workshop and then heating it a little to help it dry is that it will only dry until the air is saturated with moisture. You need to get dry air in there. Or exchange the wet air with dry air by blowing the wet air out the window, and heat new air coming in.
Or put in a dehumidifier and dry the air in there.
Leaving saturated air in your shop will cause everything in there to get surface moisture on it, when everything cools down overnight.

Dry the air and it will dry the wood.

Jim Rogers

[beenthere]

I don't know why people are knocking your idea

tyb
Not sure why other ideas are construed to be "knocking" Pistons idea, of which he specifically asked for help.

My question is, can I do this without running into mold problems?

Each have a different feel for just what Piston is comfortable with, what he desires, what he has to work with, and what time schedule he is working under.

Piston is the one who will have to live with his decisions. None of the rest of us however will have to in the long run. ;)

[Piston]

In 6 months or so, nail/screw the board edges and then add a ¾" strip as chinking between the boards.

Lynn, That actually sounds like a really cool idea, having chinking between the boards, that could add to the "rustic" feel of a woodshop that I'm going for.  ;D

Is your dads garage heated? Can you cut your boards ,sticker stack them in his garage and torpedo heat them for a long weekend? 

Actually yes it is.  It's a 3 car with insulated garage doors and he keeps it around 50°.  I could crank it up to 80 or so very easily, especially if we get a few mild days.  I'm sure he wouldn't mind  ;)

Piston
Do you have a thickness planer that will be in the new shop?

I don't, I want one though, does that count?  I'm planning on using a friends planer, it's a Home Chepot dewalt version but works pretty well. 


LeeB (I now think your name is BeeL since I just found it in the Christmas Contest game :D)  Thanks for the tar paper suggestion. 

Eastern White Pine shrinks relatively little compared to some other species. If the pine is q-sawn, it shrinks about 2.1% from green to kiln-dry, and about 6.1% if flatsawn. That's a gap of 5/32" in a 12" wide flatsawn board - not nearly big enough to stick your finger in. Quartersawn or rift-sawn will have less shrinkage. I assume your boards won't be nearly as wide as 12", so the gap would be even less in that case.

That amount of shrinkage is more than acceptable for my garage shop.  This isn't going to be one of those fancy wood shops you see in magazines, although I'd like that  ;D. 

The only problem with sticking the pine in the workshop and then heating it a little to help it dry is that it will only dry until the air is saturated with moisture.

Jim, I suppose I could open all 3 garage doors for a bit until all the air exchanges, then shut them and heat up the building again.  I'm not sure how happy my dad will be with using all that propane to dry some low value boards, but maybe he'll be away for the weekend and won't know  :D :D :D :D

Piston is the one who will have to live with his decisions. None of the rest of us however will have to in the long run. ;)

Well, me or the next owner anyways... 

[thecfarm]

I thought they used some eastern white pine on a sugar shack at Fryeburg Fair. I bet it was just flat sawn and that shrunk enough to stick a finger between the boards. I have no idea how green pine will work on that planer. I know the green hemlock did not work out good with my delta planer,from Home depot. Only took a few weeks in the summer to make a big difference. If you are putting up green boards I would use a vapor barrier on the walls,but I think I would not on the ceiling. That moisture needs to go somewheres.