black spruce- white spruce how to tell

[northernss454]

Hi I am looking at digging some ditch spruce I found some nice ones I want they are about 3 feet tall, but how do I tell the diffrence between black and white spruce. The mother trees in they came from are black and white mixed,so all the young ones look the same.I was under the impression black are darker and have cones but not too sure. Any help would be great.
Thanks

[RynSmith]

My tree book says that the branchlets (twigs under the needles and/or where the needles end) are hairy on black spruce and hairless on white.  I'm not in the range of either species and I'm curious to know if this pans out... 

[SwampDonkey]

Check this thread to separate the 3 eastern native spruce.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,16160.msg230985.html#msg230985

Look at last year's growth.

Black spruce is much later flushing out than white. The white spruce have already begun here. Crushed black spruce needles have a citrusy-sweet odor similar to sweet fern, white spruce is more pungent (skunk spruce). Red spruce seems to have the sharpest needles, they are prickly buggers.

[Clark]

If there are black and white spruce present nearby you could also be looking at a hybrid. 

Getting to the root of your question it sounds like you want a tree to transplant, I'm presuming for a yard tree or some other landscaping purpose?  If that is the case I would suggest paying the extra money for a nursery tree(s).  Spruce from natural seed sources may not meet you expectations as a yard tree.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

I don't think the two hybridize. White will hybridize with Engelman. Black will hybridize with red. Never seen a white spruce hybrid back east here, but lots of black-red crosses. Normally red likes dry ground, but we thin red spruce growing in mossy wet ground sometimes, where black spruce is also present.

[Clark]

Technically they can hybridize, I just looked it up in the Silvics manual and one hybrid has been reported in Minnesota!  I thought it was more common than that, so you're more right on this one.  I'm actually working in MN right now and know that some days you get these (young) trees on plot there the bark looks like black spruce, the needles look longer than black and you can see clear examples of both white and black spruce in the distance.  Makes me scratch my head and wonder what to think of it?

More importantly, I think the original poster was looking for some sort of yard tree and I maintain that he would probably be better served by a nursery grown tree.

Clark

[northernss454]

Thanks guy,you are kinda right i want to transplant trees,but they will be used on a exsisting shelterbelt I planted 3 years ago.All my trees did well except spruce.Only about 25% sucess rate. So since they grow so slow I want to put about 30 trees that are about 3 feet tall. They are long term trees to take over the fast growing trees. I figure 3 foot spruce should be able to be done with a shovel..
Thanks guys

[Okrafarmer]

I was just wondering if you can tell the two apart by the color of the foliage. When I visited Alaska, there was a distinct difference in the color of the needles-- one was very blueish and one was more dark green. I don't remember which was which. Also I'm not sure if those were the same spruces as on the east coast, though I was under the impression they were. I was told they were black and white spruce. Anybody?

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, needle color, odor and brown hairs on the branch tips of black are distinguishing. However, the new growth on both species is bluish until the cold of winter dulls the white spruce to dark green. Needles are also bigger on white spruce. We also have red spruce here in the east, giving the Smoky Mountain ridge tops their evergreen color. Red spruce grows in the hardwood ridges, white grows near clearings, wet gullies, fens and river bottoms and black on wet or very dry sites of the northern latitudes. Up where I was with Jeff at the camp, he had black in with his cedar. It can occur like that here, but more down south in the low lands of NB, like from Woodstock southward. White spruce grows in with my local cedar stands here. Jeff's lot reminds me of the NB lowlands with undulating land. I'm more upland here with rolling terrain.

[Okrafarmer]

Yes, needle color, odor and brown hairs on the branch tips of black are distinguishing. However, the new growth on both species is bluish until the cold of winter dulls the white spruce to dark green. Needles are also bigger on white spruce. We also have red spruce here in the east, giving the Smoky Mountain ridge tops their evergreen color. Red spruce grows in the hardwood ridges, white grows near clearings, wet gullies, fens and river bottoms and black on wet or very dry sites of the northern latitudes. Up where I was with Jeff at the camp, he had black in with his cedar. It can occur like that here, but more down south in the low lands of NB, like from Woodstock southward. White spruce grows in with my local cedar stands here. Jeff's lot reminds me of the NB lowlands with undulating land. I'm more upland here with rolling terrain.

So the black spruce are the ones that always look blue, and the white spruce are the ones that turn darker?

[SwampDonkey]

Seems to be so around here. But there is a link in post 3 for more info. Red spruce have shiny yellow green needles and are quite sharp pointed. They may be difficult to distinguish from white when under 3 feet tall. But they are the most shade tolerant and can respond to a release from long suppression periods. Thus they can survive in the hardwoods like balsam fir. At pole stage, white spruce has smooth bark if not infected with stem rot and black spruce has scaly bark. Also side by side at the same age and height, white spruce will be almost twice the diameter.

[Quercusrubrum]

Here's a dirty little secret: most red spruce and black spruce hybridize most of the time in nature, so anyone who says they can tell them apart is over-confident. They do have certain physical attributes, but some of that is related to the site the tree grows on and not necessary the tree genetics. Generally, the dead giveaway of black spruce is the low-sweeping branches that arch downward, along with tufted tops. Like I said though, usually hybridized. 

[SwampDonkey]

You'll find they are phenotypical toward one or the other even if they do. I cut millions of both on the end of a thinning saw, and I can say with complete confidence a black spruce that they plant in the skidder trails is completely different from a yellow green needled red spruce, enough to call it a red spruce even if there may be some kind of cross. There are places in the red spruce range, where there are no black spruce to even cross with. There are many traits to look at. I can tell you that differentiating between red, black and white in a wild stand is part of your dendrology field test when I was in college.

[Clark]

From the Silvics manual:

“Hybrids between P. rubens and P. mariana occur to some extent in nature, but parental species remain phenotypically pure in their characteristic habitats.”

I’m going with Swamp on this one. Also, happy birthday!

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

Here is white spruce left and red spruce (2) on the right.





white spruce shoots





red spruce just beginning to emerge





red spruce branch foreground, white background





white





red