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questions about nyle l200m room plans

Started by forrestM, May 13, 2020, 10:40:39 AM

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forrestM

Hello,

   I am planning to start the build for my nyle 200M kiln room in the next couple of weeks. I have a few questions from the nyle plans, and I figured you all would have some helpful input. 

what is CDX plywood? 

is the foil faced polyisocyanurate insulation foil faced on both sides, or just one?

Do i use the same faced polyisocyanurate in the walls as in the ceilings? 

In the ceiling, Should I put the 2 layers of 2" polyisocyanurate down, and then put some fiberglass on top, or keep stacking layers of foam?

why is polyiso recommended instead of fiberglass?

I cant excavate in the area, so I will be doing a concrete slab that is basically on grade. I can still insulate a slab on grade, right? 

Would the correct layers from the ground up be as follows: dirt, gravel, 2" blue Styrofoam, 6 mil vapor barrier, and then 4" concrete?

it says the concrete pad should not extend past the kiln walls - why is that? just for water problems? what if my roof overhang extends past the pad, anyways?

I am thinking, based on the nyle chart, I will do an 8' deep by 8' tall by 18' inside dimension building 

that way I can do 16' lumber occasionally, but will mostly be doing 4 foot deep 8' 12' and 10' long stacks of ~ 1000 board feet 

i don't see any reason to go deeper, but should I go taller?

the opening will be 16 feet with 2 8' hinged doors. Should i use steel studs, for weight?

Thanks for everything!


- Forrest

doc henderson

welcome to the forum.  I am not the expert but can at least get the party started.  CDX  is the grade of the wood (cd) and is construction grade, and they use exterior glue (x) so it does not fall apart.  there is also pressure treated so the wood is treated.  depends on the cost difference.  that would be over kill as the concrete will serve as the ground contact portion of the Kiln.  Dry sand is also an insulator if you can put plastic under it and keep water out.  The insulation has to resist water infiltration so closed cell foam and also tolerate the heat, I believe up to 160 degrees.  It can be bought in 4 x 8 sheets and or blown in to help seal things up.  If you layer the insulation and incorporate fiberglass, you may create a double vapor barrier and trap moisture in the wall.  the more insulation tends to be better for a kiln that uses electricity to generate heat, but there is a point at which the cost starts to exceed the savings and benefit.  @K-Guy  @WDH  @GeneWengert-WoodDoc  @YellowHammer
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

K-Guy

Hi Forrest
Stan from Nyle
I am planning to start the build for my nyle 200M kiln room in the next couple of weeks. I have a few questions from the nyle plans, and I figured you all would have some helpful input.

what is CDX plywood? Doc explained above

is the foil faced polyisocyanurate insulation foil faced on both sides, or just one? One

Do i use the same faced polyisocyanurate in the walls as in the ceilings?  Yes

In the ceiling, Should I put the 2 layers of 2" polyisocyanurate down, and then put some fiberglass on top, or keep stacking layers of foam? No foam is best.

why is polyiso recommended instead of fiberglass? Polyiso is moisture resistant and fiberglass isn't

I cant excavate in the area, so I will be doing a concrete slab that is basically on grade. I can still insulate a slab on grade, right?  Do a standard insulated slab and insulate the sides as well.

Would the correct layers from the ground up be as follows: dirt, gravel, 2" blue Styrofoam, 6 mil vapor barrier, and then 4" concrete?

it says the concrete pad should not extend past the kiln walls - why is that? just for water problems? what if my roof overhang extends past the pad, anyways? The concrete will work as a heat sink pulling heat from the kiln increasing power use and reducing efficiency.

I am thinking, based on the nyle chart, I will do an 8' deep by 8' tall by 18' inside dimension building

that way I can do 16' lumber occasionally, but will mostly be doing 4 foot deep 8' 12' and 10' long stacks of ~ 1000 board feet

i don't see any reason to go deeper, but should I go taller? This all a matter of preference and sizing for your loads.

the opening will be 16 feet with 2 8' hinged doors. Should i use steel studs, for weight? Avoid steel in the construction. If your kiln leaks, the tannic acid will rust it very quickly, wood studs are better.

If you want to talk to me call 800-777-6953 ext 212  :o ;D
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

YellowHammer

Looks like its been covered, except since the foam will be under the slab and won't support it as well, 6 inch thick concrete is best.  

Also, if you do a search on this Forum, there is lots of information about kiln construction.

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

farmfromkansas

Think I would hold the foam back 6" from the edge of the concrete.  And then if you have a footing put foam around outside as well.  Push the foam down around edge so concrete will show all the way around, and keep dirt up to the edge of the concrete, so mice and other pests can not dig into and tunnel around in the styrofoam. 
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

Walnut Beast

Byron from Nyle Kilns did not advise CDX plywood for longevity for the inside of the chamber. He said if you want it to last use Marine grade plywood for your chamber and stainless steel screws. 

YellowHammer

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

doc henderson

It is good to have a thermal break, so foam or expansion joint so the heat from the slab does not contact the concrete on the outside.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Walnut Beast



This is the insulation I have to get the proper R factor.
Johns Manville Foil Faced Polyiso Foam Insulation 2" x 4' x 8' R-13. Two sheets of this sandwiched together gives you a R 26 Factor in a 2x6 construction with a small dead air space to the outside. Clear or black plastic for the vapor barrier under the marine grade plywood on the inside of the chamber. Even though I have my New Nyle Kiln on the Pallet and my materials in the shop this is what I'm using and have. Good advice from Byron at Nyle Kilns . If your going to all the work do it right so it lasts. 

Walnut Beast

YellowHammer has excellent advice and recommendations on here 👍👍👍. 

forrestM

thanks guys! 

and the foil faces of the polyiso layers should all face towards the interior, right?

WDH

In my opinion, 8' deep is not deep enough.  With a 4' load and the space in the back for the kiln dehumidification unit against the back wall, there will not be enough room between the wood packs and the dehumidification unit and between the front door and the wood packs.  You need about 18" to 24" from the door to the wood and about 18" to 24" from the wood to the dehumidification unit to get good air circulation.  Then you have to add the depth of the dehumidification unit to the back wall.  So, 2' from front door to wood plus 4' for wood pack plus 2' from back of wood pack to dehumidification unit plus about 2' for the depth of the dehumidification unit to the back wall.  That is at least 10' of depth at a minimum. 

8' high is not high enough to be able to load the kiln to the capacity of the dehumidification unit.  You have to have some room above the wood pack to the ceiling for a baffle.  A 16' long x 4' wide pack of lumber with stickers is 64 bf per layer for 4/4 lumber.  Each layer of 4/4 wood plus the sticker thickness is at least 2"  With 8' of interior height leaving at least 1 foot (don't think 1 foot is enough) above the wood to the ceiling for a baffle, this leaves 7' for the wood.  Factor in another 4'' for the pallet height of the pallet that holds the wood, you now are at 80" of usable space.  That is 40 layers of wood at 2" per layer (4/4 board plus sticker).  40 x 64 = 2560 bf.  This kiln should be able to handle up to 4000 bf of green oak, so with your dimensions you are undersizing your chamber to the capacity of the dehumidification unit.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Walnut Beast

Quote from: WDH on May 13, 2020, 08:17:35 PM
In my opinion, 8' deep is not deep enough.  With a 4' load and the space in the back for the kiln dehumidification unit against the back wall, there will not be enough room between the wood packs and the dehumidification unit and between the front door and the wood packs.  You need about 18" to 24" from the door to the wood and about 18" to 24" from the wood to the dehumidification unit to get good air circulation.  Then you have to add the depth of the dehumidification unit to the back wall.  So, 2' from front door to wood plus 4' for wood pack plus 2' from back of wood pack to dehumidification unit plus about 2' for the depth of the dehumidification unit to the back wall.  That is at least 10' of depth at a minimum.  

8' high is not high enough to be able to load the kiln to the capacity of the dehumidification unit.  You have to have some room above the wood pack to the ceiling for a baffle.  A 16' long x 4' wide pack of lumber with stickers is 64 bf per layer for 4/4 lumber.  Each layer of 4/4 wood plus the sticker thickness is at least 2"  With 8' of interior height leaving at least 1 foot (don't think 1 foot is enough) above the wood to the ceiling for a baffle, this leaves 7' for the wood.  Factor in another 4'' for the pallet height of the pallet that holds the wood, you now are at 80" of usable space.  That is 40 layers of wood at 2" per layer (4/4 board plus sticker).  40 x 64 = 2560 bf.  This kiln should be able to handle up to 4000 bf of green oak, so with your dimensions you are undersizing your chamber to the capacity of the dehumidification unit.
Sounds like you have some good opinions. I was also building my kiln 8' x 8' x 17. Byron at Nyle said that was fine on the dimensions. The depth at 8 ft is fine with the Nyle 200 Kiln unit. I understand that A little higher than 8 ft inside height would be very beneficial for stack height and a little longer would be nice. But from my understanding you would need to buy more vents and fans than the standard kit has. I would like to hear more input and thoughts 👍

WDH

I would size the chamber to be able to hold the highest volume of wood that the unit can handle. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

K-Guy

8' is a minimum width for good airflow. I recommend 9' because it gives the best balance of airflow and excess space to heat. 
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

Walnut Beast

Quote from: K-Guy on May 14, 2020, 09:41:47 AM
8' is a minimum width for good airflow. I recommend 9' because it gives the best balance of airflow and excess space to heat.
Thank you K-Guy on the recommended 9ft depth now what's the best height and length to be the perfect combination for the 200 kit with what is standard in the package. 

K-Guy

Quote from: Walnut Beast on May 14, 2020, 01:47:35 PMnow what's the best height and length to be the perfect combination for the 200 kit with what is standard in the package. 


That depends on what lengths you a drying most of the time as far as length goes. Height depends on your load size. Both are up to you. For myself I would have the chamber length at 21' as it gives the most flexibility for pack length ( 2 x 10', 10' + 8', 1 x 20', etc) but with at least 3 fans.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

scsmith42

Very good advice from Stan and Danny above.

My 2 cents.  First and foremost - make your door opening taller and wider.  You mentioned a 16' wide door, but trust me - you will eventually hit the door frame when loading stacks of 16' lumber.  I'd size the door to the chamber width for maximum flexibility.  Stan's recommendation for 21' chamber width is a good one.  I have two kilns with 20' widths / doors and I wish that I'd gone that extra foot.  Most lumber is a few inches over length (16'6", 8'6", etc), so you'll need several inches of wiggle room next to the stacks.

Nyle recommends a narrower width kiln (8' or 9' depth), whereas Gene Wengert recommends using the sum total of all of your stickers to determine space in front of and behind the stack.  Both Stan and Gene are very knowledgeable, but I can say that I'd opt for a little more depth as opposed to less.  At least 9' if not 10' depth to allow for room to check  your stacks during the drying process.

Yes,  you will need to buy more fans.  I have 6 in my 45' container kiln and would not want less.  Stan can provide the best advice regarding fan quantity.

You'll need to be much taller with your chamber.  I ran some calculations in a different thread a few months ago and I'll see if I can find them and repost.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scsmith42

Found my comments.  This is based upon building a kiln chamber suitable for 4K bd ft of 4/4 green WO.

Each 48x96" layer of 4/4 oak will be comprised of 32 board feet.  Two pallets side by side will contain 64 board feet per layer.  Based on that, 4000 bd ft require 62 layers tall.  Presuming that your boards are 1-1/8" and you use 3/4" stickers, each layer of lumber and stickers will be 1-7/8".

So you'll be loading your pallets with 1000 bd ft each (6000 lbs green), approximately 31 layers tall, stacked side by side and two high.

You'll need 118" of height to the bottom of your fans/baffles, plus 6 inches for each of your pallets (12" total / two pallets per stack) and a few more inches (say 6") for clearance when loading.  

I would stack two pallets side by side with two more on top of them, as this will provide a better airflow compared with two pallets front and back or four pallets wide.  Be sure to baffle in-between the supports on your pallets so that you don't lose air flow.

Basically you'll need 12' from the floor to the bottom of your baffles.  Add another 2' for your fans and your interior height needs to be at least 14'.  Gene Wengert recommends adding some addition inches to allow for lumber that may be thicker than the norm.

You'll need for your door opening to be at least as high as the dimension from the floor to the fan baffles mounted to the ceiling.  That's 12' using my math above.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

busenitzcww

I'm still working on my kiln but I went 10x10x20. Hoping to get some lumber in it soon!

forrestM

Thanks for all of the input, everyone!

How did you build those 20' doors, @scsmith42 ?

scsmith42

Quote from: forrestM on May 19, 2020, 08:40:22 PM
Thanks for all of the input, everyone!

How did you build those 20' doors, @scsmith42 ?
These were on solar kilns, not my Nyle.
Each door was 10' wide for a 20' opening.  They were framed out of 2x4's, with vertical 2x4's on 16" centers.  1/2" plywood was glued and screwed onto the studs, and then closed cell spray foam was sprayed on the inside of the door.  A stainless steel cable and turnbuckle was placed on the inside from the upper hinge corner to the bottom middle corner.  They've worked well for 4 years or so.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

forrestM

@K-Guy 

9' deep x 22' long foot seems ideal for 2 stacks side by side. then I have to make the huge doors. What about 18' long by 12' deep? 

that way you would put two 48" stacks deep in the kiln, as opposed to side by side. Any problem with having a stack behind another, as opposed to side by side? 

what kind of distance would you need between the 2 stacks? do you still want about 18" from front wall to the first stack, and ~ 12" from the back of the second stack to the unit? 

I guess it would be more like 13' foot deep?

Thanks,
Forrest


busenitzcww

Don't know the specs but I do remember it's been said that stacking two deep is a little more tricky. Definitely a decent space between the piles so the air flow can adjust as necessary since the stickers may not line up. Maybe more fan power as well?

K-Guy


Hi forrestM

busenitzcww is correct, airflow will be a problem. The L200 is setup for single stack drying. To dry 2 stacks deep you will need more fans plus the stack closest to unit will always be wetter than the outboard stack, not by much but a bit. They must be stacked and stickered so the air can flow through both stacks. to do this you would need extra fans and you may have to much air going into the stacks that can cause defects, to get enough air over the inboard stack. In larger kilns they adjust for this by using reversing fans.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

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