To sell or wait.

cliffreaves · August 16, 2016, 09:51:31 PM

I'm milling several bd ft of 8/4 elm, cherry, and oak slabs right now. I do have a place to air dry them, but is it worth waiting 2 years for it to dry or should I try to sell green? I know elm isn't all that pricey as it is, but it's very hard to find 2" thick of anything around here at a reasonable price. Any thoughts on what I could sell the lumber for dry or wet, would be much appreciated. I'm in the Nashville area.

Magicman · August 16, 2016, 10:11:56 PM

I would spray it to prevent PPB infestation.

tule peak timber · August 16, 2016, 10:23:57 PM

Listen to MM...Waiting to sell your wood has it's merits....... Rob

cliffreaves · August 16, 2016, 10:31:32 PM

Okay, I'll definitely spray it then. And just to be clear, what should I spray it with? Lol😦 sorry I'm greener than my lumber.

tule peak timber · August 16, 2016, 10:44:18 PM

Timbor, Biobor, depending on your pocket book....look at the active ingredients. Rob

cliffreaves · August 16, 2016, 10:47:48 PM

Thanks, I'll check it out.

YellowHammer · August 16, 2016, 10:59:39 PM

I'd set a high price green, then sell if you get it. Worst case, you keep them until you can sell them air dried.

cliffreaves · August 16, 2016, 11:22:06 PM

Good call yellowhammer. I found 25 pounds of timbor for $95, can expect that to treat a lot of lumber?

longtime lurker · August 17, 2016, 12:55:03 AM

When you cut them put a serial number on them and take a picture of each side showing the number, then make sure the number is also on a visible edge of the stack. We also put some dimensions on them visible in one of the pictures, nothing fancy, just length by width, or maybe two widths if theres a lot of taper or a belly in the slab.

And if you're cutting a lot of them put a row of 3" deep stickers in every 4 or 5 rows so you can get at slab number 35 without having to manhandle slabs 1 - 34 first; just lift them down in bundles of 5 with a forklift.

My experience is that purchasers of slabs tend to be looking for the "right" piece of wood for a project, and that can be very subjective. Being able to show pictures rather then the actual slabs can save you a whole heap of time (and a lot of backache if they're big) by knowing that you only need to look at a slab rather then breaking the whole stack apart to look at each individually.

WDH · August 17, 2016, 07:55:09 AM

I figure about a gallon for every 100 bf. 25 pounds will make 20 gallons the way that I mix it. I mix 6 pounds of powder to 5 gallons of water. You could get way with one pound per gallon, but I like to mix mine just a wee bit stronger.

Magicman · August 17, 2016, 08:22:46 AM

I sawed 2¼" X ~18" Cypress slabs for a customer and he sold them very quickly. He advertised them "online" as "rough, fresh sawn, live edged slabs.

cliffreaves · August 17, 2016, 08:42:58 AM

Great info, thank you guys again!

WDH · August 17, 2016, 10:07:25 AM

In my area, people want slabs dry. I kiln dry and plane them, which really increases the value. Cut em. Stack em, forget about em, and before you know it, they will be air dry. If you cut a bunch and get a little ahead, it will pay big dividends down the road. You have to get out in front of it.

Brad_bb · August 17, 2016, 01:24:06 PM

Each step of production adds value. The question is, are you efficient at various stages so that you can add profit? Milling adds value. Drying adds value. Flattening the slab can add value. The more value you add, the more profit per sale. The next logical question is, what is the market like for green versus dry versus pre-flattened? You may have more buyers for green and less for finished, but you may make the same money on fewer slabs by all the processing. If you want to stay focused on milling and keep churning through wood, then sell green or semi dry or dry. To do that, you will need a regular supply of logs. If that is a problem, then consider more processing so you don't have to worry as much about procuring logs as often.

longtime lurker · August 17, 2016, 08:58:15 PM

Quote from: Brad_bb on August 17, 2016, 01:24:06 PM
Each step of production adds value. The question is, are you efficient at various stages so that you can add profit? Milling adds value. Drying adds value. Flattening the slab can add value. The more value you add, the more profit per sale. The next logical question is, what is the market like for green versus dry versus pre-flattened? You may have more buyers for green and less for finished, but you may make the same money on fewer slabs by all the processing. If you want to stay focused on milling and keep churning through wood, then sell green or semi dry or dry. To do that, you will need a regular supply of logs. If that is a problem, then consider more processing so you don't have to worry as much about procuring logs as often.

This is right, and I'm not going to argue with the basic premise that value adding can be quite lucrative.
But as you so correctly point out, its highly dependant on whether you can do so efficiently enough to make it profitable.

Usually being efficient at this work takes equipment and unless you happen to have that equipment then you either have to hire the equipment, or hire the work done, or do so in a fashion thats maybe not so time efficient with lesser equipment. Time is money as we all know - I've seen some huge slabs leveled with a hand plane but the guy loved doing it that way so he calculated "value" in terms other then money. Air drying is of course the easiest value add: store then correctly and forget about them for a few years. The ultimate in value adding is to start with a tree and end up with a finished product, be it a house, a table or an installed mantlepiece. A lot depends (as you point out) on whether you wish to be a sawmiller or a carpenter, and if its a one time thing or theres an ongoing resource.

One issue that does need to be factored in is degrade. Insect and fungal attack is easy enough to prevent, but you also need to factor in loss due to all the other forms of drying degrade - warping, splitting, checks, cracks, collapse etc etc etc. In reality the bigger the slab the higher chance you have of losing significant value to these things - big slabs tend to want to cup and end split in my experience and even with every precaution taken sometimes you start with 5' wide slabs and end up with 6" wide planks when they've dried.
Narrow ones not so much, but they're also worth less in the first place so its a wash.

So the actual profit from value adding is (green value + drying value increase + leveling increase + any other value adding increase) minus (treatment and handling costs + storage costs + drying degrade costs + interest on the price of logs and sawing + value adding cost of time and equipment + any other incidental cost due to holding the timber longer). That "interest on price of log and sawing" is the hidden cost that many dont think about, and it can be quite substantial if you pay for logs and have a wages bill to run a sawmill.

I've got the gear to do value adding of slabs, but I long ago figured out that when I factored in the real costs involved that I was better off staying away from the things altogether and selling value added lumber. The PITA factor coupled with the greater care needed to dry them successfully (read more time, and the interest bill on the price of log + sawing is ticking away every day) made it less profitable to sell the higher priced product compared with turning the same log into lumber and value adding that.

I'm not saying that its not necessarily a bad decision to go that route: if you've only got a few logs and the time you spend on anything wood related is "therapy time" then its probably the best way to go in terms of maximizing your return on a given log. But from a pure profit viewpoint I remain unconvinced that its as lucrative as many think.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · August 17, 2016, 09:51:13 PM

Quote from: WDH on August 17, 2016, 10:07:25 AM
.........Cut em. Stack em, forget about em, and before you know it, they will be air dry.

This is something I have learned and it is so true. Good point Danny.

tule peak timber · August 18, 2016, 09:33:48 AM

The school I subscribe to. Rob

thecfarm · August 18, 2016, 09:37:10 AM

If you slab them,they will come. ;D

tule peak timber · August 18, 2016, 11:07:02 AM

never finished · August 18, 2016, 05:33:23 PM

I feel like I just sat through a full semester of saw mill economics. Who said college is too expensive. Great thread guys. Dennis

bkaimwood · August 18, 2016, 07:27:46 PM

Quote from: WDH on August 17, 2016, 10:07:25 AM
In my area, people want slabs dry. I kiln dry and plane them, which really increases the value. Cut em. Stack em, forget about em, and before you know it, they will be air dry. If you cut a bunch and get a little ahead, it will pay big dividends down the road. You have to get out in front of it.

WDH hit the nail on the head...you have to get ahead of it... you'll be eating roman noodles for 2-3 years, but once that stuff is air dried, your should be into your first cycle, making money. The first concern is keeping the bugs at bay, the second is proper stacking and such for nice, flat slabs. The only hiccup is its still air dried. I've noted a significant increase in clients who want kiln dried, and won't buy air dried, at any price. Those guys have probably been burned. Stick with it and you'll do fine!!

Brad_bb · August 18, 2016, 07:34:32 PM

WDH hit the nail on the head...you have to get ahead of it... you'll be eating roman noodles for 2-3 years, but once that stuff is air dried, your should be into your first cycle, making money. The first concern is keeping the bugs at bay, the second is proper stacking and such for nice, flat slabs. The only hiccup is its still air dried. I've noted a significant increase in clients who want kiln dried, and won't buy air dried, at any price. Those guys have probably been burned. Stick with it and you'll do fine!!
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How were they burned? I mean, they see what they are buying, correct? Even if you kiln dry thick slabs, they will still have moisture in the middle won't they? You're only drying the outside inch or so.

bkaimwood · August 18, 2016, 08:49:43 PM

They were burned by buying lumber that was sold as kiln dried and sterilized, or bought wood that was advertised as such and such a MC, and it was much higher, or they got PPB a year or two later, indicating that it did not have a proper sterilization cycle. It is not true, that a kiln dried thick slab will have moisture content in the center. I'll clarify by saying it will have moisture in the center, but if dried and handled properly, should be less than 10 percent tops. If is does, it is obviously a low quality slab, not handled or dries properly. It should also have hit a minimum of 133 degrees F for a minimum of 4-6 hours, in the CORE. Thick slabs can and should be kiln dried to the same standards as 4/4 lumber...hence the time, handling, and overall investment...

carykong · August 18, 2016, 10:29:03 PM

If a slab is not pre sold, what would be the best most popular thickness?

cliffreaves · August 18, 2016, 10:37:50 PM

I'm definitely good with doing everything myself except for kiln drying. I may attempt a homemade kiln in my garage next summer depending on how money is. I originally was just going to build a bunch of tables and other furniture once it is dry enough, but I really like milling more than I thought i would lol. I'll still build stuff on the side when my wife tells me to, but nothing is more satisfying than opening up a tree and seeing what's inside for the first time. I posted the green slabs at $2.50 a bd ft. They're right at 2 1/4" between 8 -6 ft long and 10-24" wide. They'll be untreated until late next week and I posted it as fresh cut/untreated elm. I think I'll hold on to the cherry, oak, persimmon, and box elder. We'll see if there are any takers on the elm. I was desperate for 2" slabs last year and couldn't find anything below $5 bdft.