To sell or wait.

[cliffreaves]

I'm milling several bd ft of 8/4 elm, cherry, and oak slabs right now.  I do have a place to air dry them, but is it worth waiting 2 years for it to dry or should I try to sell green?  I know elm isn't all that pricey as it is, but it's very hard to find 2" thick of anything around here at a reasonable price.   Any thoughts on what I could sell the lumber for dry or wet, would be much appreciated.  I'm in the Nashville area.

[Magicman]

I would spray it to prevent PPB infestation.

[tule peak timber]

Listen to MM...Waiting to sell your wood has it's merits....... Rob

[cliffreaves]

Okay, I'll definitely spray it then.  And just to be clear, what should I spray it with? Lol😦 sorry I'm greener than my lumber.

[tule peak timber]

Timbor, Biobor, depending on your pocket book....look at the active ingredients. Rob

[cliffreaves]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[YellowHammer]

I'd set a high price green, then sell if you get it.  Worst case, you keep them until you can sell them air dried. 

[cliffreaves]

Good call yellowhammer.  I found 25 pounds of timbor for $95, can expect that to treat a lot of lumber?

[longtime lurker]

When you cut them put a serial number on them and take a picture of each side showing the number, then make sure the number is also on a visible edge of the stack. We also put some dimensions on them visible in one of the pictures, nothing fancy, just length by width, or maybe two widths if theres a lot of taper or a belly in the slab.

And if you're cutting a lot of them put a row of 3" deep stickers in every 4 or 5 rows so you can get at slab number 35 without having to manhandle slabs 1 - 34 first; just lift them down in bundles of 5 with a forklift.

My experience is that purchasers of slabs tend to be looking for the "right" piece of wood for a project, and that can be very subjective. Being able to show pictures rather then the actual slabs can save you a whole heap of time (and a lot of backache if they're big) by knowing that you only need to look at a slab rather then breaking the whole stack apart to look at each individually.

[WDH]

I figure about a gallon for every 100 bf.  25 pounds will make 20 gallons the way that I mix it.  I mix 6 pounds of powder to 5 gallons of water. You could get way with one pound per gallon, but I like to mix mine just a wee bit stronger. 

[Magicman]

I sawed 2¼" X ~18" Cypress slabs for a customer and he sold them very quickly.  He advertised them "online" as "rough, fresh sawn, live edged slabs.

[cliffreaves]

Great info, thank you guys again!

[WDH]

In my area, people want slabs dry.  I kiln dry and plane them, which really increases the value.  Cut em.  Stack em, forget about em, and before you know it, they will be air dry.  If you cut a bunch and get a little ahead, it will pay big dividends down the road.  You have to get out in front of it. 

[Brad_bb]

Each step of production adds value.  The question is, are you efficient at various stages so that you can add profit?  Milling adds value.  Drying adds value.  Flattening the slab can add value.  The more value you add, the more profit per sale.  The next logical question is, what is the market like for green versus dry versus pre-flattened?  You may have more buyers for green and less for finished, but you may make the same money on fewer slabs by all the processing.  If you want to stay focused on milling and keep churning through wood, then sell green or semi dry or dry.  To do that, you will need a regular supply of logs.  If that is a problem, then consider more processing so you don't have to worry as much about procuring logs as often.

[longtime lurker]

Each step of production adds value.  The question is, are you efficient at various stages so that you can add profit?  Milling adds value.  Drying adds value.  Flattening the slab can add value.  The more value you add, the more profit per sale.  The next logical question is, what is the market like for green versus dry versus pre-flattened?  You may have more buyers for green and less for finished, but you may make the same money on fewer slabs by all the processing.  If you want to stay focused on milling and keep churning through wood, then sell green or semi dry or dry.  To do that, you will need a regular supply of logs.  If that is a problem, then consider more processing so you don't have to worry as much about procuring logs as often.

This is right, and I'm not going to argue with the basic premise that value adding can be quite lucrative.
But as you so correctly point out, its highly dependant on whether you can do so efficiently enough to make it profitable.

Usually being efficient at this work takes equipment and unless you happen to have that equipment then you either have to hire the equipment, or hire the work done, or do so in a fashion thats maybe not so time efficient with lesser equipment. Time is money as we all know - I've seen some huge slabs leveled with a hand plane but the guy loved doing it that way so he calculated "value" in terms other then money. Air drying is of course the easiest value add: store then correctly and forget about them for a few years. The ultimate in value adding is to start with a tree and end up with a finished product, be it a house, a table or an installed mantlepiece. A lot depends (as you point out) on whether you wish to be a sawmiller or a carpenter, and if its a one time thing or theres an ongoing resource.

One issue that does need to be factored in is degrade. Insect and fungal attack is easy enough to prevent, but you also need to factor in loss due to all the other forms of drying degrade - warping, splitting, checks, cracks, collapse etc etc etc. In reality the bigger the slab the higher chance you have of losing significant value to these things - big slabs tend to want to cup and end split in my experience and even with every precaution taken sometimes you start with 5' wide slabs and end up with 6" wide planks when they've dried.
Narrow ones not so much, but they're also worth less in the first place so its a wash.

So the actual profit from value adding is (green value + drying value increase + leveling increase + any other value adding increase) minus (treatment and handling costs + storage costs + drying degrade costs + interest on the price of logs and sawing + value adding cost of time and equipment + any other incidental cost due to holding the timber longer). That "interest on price of log and sawing" is the hidden cost that many dont think about, and it can be quite substantial if you pay for logs and have a wages bill to run a sawmill.

I've got the gear to do value adding of slabs, but I long ago figured out that when I factored in the real costs involved that I was better off staying away from the things altogether and selling value added lumber. The PITA factor coupled with the greater care needed to dry them successfully (read more time, and the interest bill on the price of log + sawing is ticking away every day) made it less profitable to sell the higher priced product compared with turning the same log into lumber and value adding that.

I'm not saying that its not necessarily a bad decision to go that route: if you've only got a few logs and the time you spend on anything wood related is "therapy time" then its probably the best way to go in terms of maximizing your return on a given log. But from a pure profit viewpoint I remain unconvinced that its as lucrative as many think.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

.........Cut em.  Stack em, forget about em, and before you know it, they will be air dry. 

This is something I have learned and it is so true. Good point Danny. 

[tule peak timber]

The school I subscribe to. Rob

[thecfarm]

If you slab them,they will come.  ;D

[tule peak timber]

 

[never finished]

 I feel like I just sat through a full semester of saw mill economics. Who said college is too expensive. Great thread guys. Dennis

[bkaimwood]

In my area, people want slabs dry.  I kiln dry and plane them, which really increases the value.  Cut em.  Stack em, forget about em, and before you know it, they will be air dry.  If you cut a bunch and get a little ahead, it will pay big dividends down the road.  You have to get out in front of it.

WDH hit the nail on the head...you have to get ahead of it... you'll be eating roman noodles for 2-3 years, but once that stuff is air dried, your should be into your first cycle, making money. The first concern is keeping the bugs at bay, the second is proper stacking and such for nice, flat slabs. The only hiccup is its still air dried. I've noted a significant increase in clients who want kiln dried, and won't buy air dried, at any price. Those guys have probably been burned.  Stick with it and you'll do fine!!

[Brad_bb]

WDH hit the nail on the head...you have to get ahead of it... you'll be eating roman noodles for 2-3 years, but once that stuff is air dried, your should be into your first cycle, making money. The first concern is keeping the bugs at bay, the second is proper stacking and such for nice, flat slabs. The only hiccup is its still air dried. I've noted a significant increase in clients who want kiln dried, and won't buy air dried, at any price. Those guys have probably been burned.  Stick with it and you'll do fine!!
[/quote]

How were they burned?  I mean, they see what they are buying, correct?  Even if you kiln dry thick slabs, they will still have moisture in the middle won't they?  You're only drying the outside inch or so.

[bkaimwood]

They were burned by buying lumber that was sold as kiln dried and sterilized, or bought wood that was advertised as such and such a MC, and it was much higher, or they got PPB a year or two later, indicating that it did not have a proper sterilization cycle. It is not true, that a kiln dried thick slab will have moisture content in the center. I'll clarify by saying it will have moisture in the center, but if dried and handled properly, should be less than 10 percent tops. If is does, it is obviously a low quality slab, not handled or dries properly. It should also have hit a minimum of 133 degrees F for a minimum of 4-6 hours, in the CORE. Thick slabs can and should be kiln dried to the same standards as 4/4 lumber...hence the time, handling, and overall investment...

[carykong]

If a slab is not pre sold, what would be the best most popular thickness?

[cliffreaves]

I'm definitely good with doing everything myself except for kiln drying. I may attempt a homemade kiln in my garage next summer depending on how money is.  I originally was just going to build a bunch of tables and other furniture once it is dry enough, but I really like milling more than I thought i would lol.  I'll still build stuff on the side when my wife tells me to, but nothing is more satisfying than opening up a tree and seeing what's inside for the first time.  I posted the green slabs at $2.50 a bd ft.  They're right at 2 1/4" between 8 -6 ft long and 10-24" wide.  They'll be untreated until late next week and I posted it as fresh cut/untreated elm.  I think I'll hold on to the cherry, oak, persimmon, and box elder.  We'll see if there are any takers on the elm.  I was desperate for 2" slabs last year and couldn't find anything below $5 bdft.

[longtime lurker]

Desired thickness will vary somewhat depending on the overall dimensions of the slab and local usage.

Rough sawn around here and not allowing for leveling out cup that might develop:
Coffee table size slabs - 6/4
Bar size slabs - 8/4 to 10/4
Big slabs - 10/4 to 12/4 depending on width

Best way to look at it is what the desired finished size will be and add up from there to allow for shrinkage, dressing, and whatever cup you need to level out to start with. Desired finished size can often depend on the purchaser: mostly around here normal to large size dining tables are probably around 7/4 to 8/4 thick finished, but I've got one guy that specializes in big heavy slab furniture and on a slab over 48"wide he likes them at 16/4 rough sawn, at that size even with machinery everything to do with them is painful



 



 


Some of his work. The butchers block I knew when it was a tree, and it resides in our kitchen. Takes 2 people to lift it now... and it's an off cut off a conference room table!

[YellowHammer]

They get burned because of all things that can go wrong drying a slab, only some of them are overcome by air drying, and there are still a few surprises left that can bite them.  Bugs is a big one, but warp, twist, bow, end splits, end cracks, heart checks, inconsistent moisture content, unpredictable wood movement, and just plain disappointment are common occurrences when drying slabs. 

As several people have said, taking slabs from log to finished product is a balancing act of managing degrade and time.  It takes experience and hard knocks to minimize time, maximize throughput, minimize degrade, and optimize profit. 

For example, if I buy $5,000 of walnut logs, I have several options.  I can saw as 4/4, air dry for a month, kiln them and have them on the rack and sold in maybe 3 months.  With 4/4 I can minimize degrade, dry fast and sell fast, and get my money back with profit.  If I mill slabs, I have at least 6 months drying time and will not be able to sell for 9 months to a year.  Meanwhile, my money is locked up, and I have no return on investment.  Considering I need to have several different loads of walnut slabs in process to keep my inventory stable, I may have many thousands of dollars locked up. 
Anyway, from a business standpoint, drying slabs is problematic, and with some species, in my opinion, not worth the effort.  So over the years, I've basically down selected to a few species that make good slabs in a relatively short period of time, and completely ignore the others.  Characteristics I consider are maximum allowable drying rate, tendency to move, possibility of sticker stain, general internal log stress, and others.  Mainly, from a business standpoint, the most important is profit potential.

[cliffreaves]

Man! Does he have a crane lift those bad boys!?! Ha ha... he definitely does great work.  It seems like most people around here have had to completely adapt to 4/4 boards to make everything.   It's one of the main reasons I wanted to mill, because I had a need for thicker lumber and assumed others did as well.  The only place (storefront) that sells 8/4 lumber within 50 miles of me charges between $8-$12 bd ft for the more desired species.  Custom mills are too few and far between.

[cliffreaves]

I'm thinking slabs could only be a mildly profitable side business thing for a fella such as myself.  If I had the equipment and expenses, I would have no choice but to plan and mill like a lot of you get to.  I have a free logs, a chainsaw, and a bad habit of learning things the hard way. 😂

[longtime lurker]

mmm, maybe.  The idea of no other source of lumber in 50 miles (assuming theres enough people around to give some demand) is a sawmillers dream come true, so long as you can get a regular supply of logs.

Theres no rule that says you cant saw both slabs and dimension lumber, and theres no rule that says you cant saw slabs at regular dimension lumber thicknesses and then rip them into dimension lumber later if thats what market demand calls for. You can do it with a chainsaw slabber and a pretty basic circular rip saw if your back is strong. But it sounds like a perfect job for a swingmill (Lucas, Peterson, Turbosaw etc etc) with blade and slabber and the levelling attachment: they're quite versatile that way.

At the end of the day we each of us have to decide if this is a business or a hobby. If its a hobby it can be still quite profitable but as with all hobbies its what you do weekends and afternoons and it doesnt matter so much if theres not regular cashflow coming in from it.

If its a business then you have to treat it like a business, and thats a whole different way of looking at things. Theres a whole heap of accumulated knowledge here about running a sawmilling business, but as you can see we all look at it differently because at the end of the day even though we all do the same basic thing - turn logs into lumber - our businesses are all different so what we do, how we do it, and what we do it with is specific to each operation.

[WDH]

I saw at 9/4.  That is 2 3/8" thick.  Most slabs will plane out to a full 2", and that is the magical thickness for many people.  I get calls from people who want slabs that are "2 inches thick".  If you saw at two inches, you will end up with a planed thickness of 1 5/8" or so.  In my book, that is not "2 inches thick".

Also, if you are cutting your 4/4 at 1 1/8" thick, standard for rough sawn hardwood, and if you want a slab, all you have to do is drop two cuts.  The first drop is 1 1/8", like if you were sawing a standard 4/4 board, the next drop is also 1 1/8", but because you did not make a cut between the two drops, there is another 1/8" from the saw kerf that you did not take.  That gives you a board that is 2 3/8" thick, and you can easily switch back and forth between 4/4 and 9/4 without making any adjustment cuts.  That is another advantage of sawing slabs at 9/4 or 2 3/8" thick. 

I can produce some very high quality slabs, and I price accordingly. 

[tule peak timber]

 

  I cut and stack slabs all year long looking for future sales down the line. They get labels and are cataloged for customers looking for that "special piece of wood". The market here is for KD product, so it is necessary to look out about 3-5 years for payback. In the meantime I work my secondary shop for cash flow.  Rob

[ozarkgem]

  I cut and stack slabs all year long looking for future sales down the line. They get labels and are cataloged for customers looking for that "special piece of wood". The market here is for KD product, so it is necessary to look out about 3-5 years for payback. In the meantime I work my secondary shop for cash flow.  Rob

Man you are the slab king!

[Peter Drouin]

I keep some, But they take forever to sell and take too much room.