Foley Belsaw M-14 problems

[wardbrook]

 

 

 

 

 

Let's start off by saying I'm no Sawyer. I am just getting into this hobby and have much to learn. I have a Belsaw that I have been trying to get going that has given me no end of trouble. It's a PTO drive 40" inserted tooth (F tooth) blade 24 teeth. Currently I am running it on an MF35 diesel which seems to do much better than my to-35 gas I had hooked to it previously. Currently I have it set at about 1/16" lead

Originally I thought most of my problems were because it was set up on an old wooden base that I couldn't keep the tracks straight on, so I stripped the mill down and completely rebuilt it from metal with 10" C channel. 

It looks much nicer now but I'm still having a lot of the same problems. When I pulled it out of the shop I had a maybe 14" white pine log sitting around that's been cut for a while and full of grub holes. It cut this soft stuff ok but not really square. 

I cut fresh hemlock probably 19" at the wide end and here's where all the troubles came back. At first my cuts where actually forcing the carriage back. If I set it to say 16" by the time I got to the other end of the cut it would have pushed it back to 14.5" 

I then went through the carriage and tightened everything up, welded the ratchet prawl mechanism (picture included) so I could regrind it to a sharp edge where it engages the gear and also found there's a tension adjustment bolt to keep it from walking that presses on the shaft the gear is on. 

So now it doesn't walk but it wants to so instead it seems like the blade is getting jammed into the log until the carriage wants to start to bind. 

The blade has a bit of a flutter in it with a dial indicator I was getting close to .100 run out at the edge. I brought it to the NH saw shop and saw Charlie, great guy by the way. He did some hammering for me and got the saw much better although it seemed pretty near perfect with his straight edges at his shop when I got it home I still have some runout but it's much better maybe .040 at the edge. He also taught me much about sharpening and sharpened the teeth for me (I purchased a Dexter sharpening guide while I was there). 

I thought for sure this would be it but I have the same problem now. 

I can throw a level across the carriage and it's perfect I can put the level on the blade and that's also perfectly straight the other direction. I go to make a cut and I'm so far out of square it's laughable. I can not understand what's happening but something is clearly wrong. It actually popped the back wheel of the carriage over the track in one cut so I know there's a lot of force I just don't know why. If I move the log back or have the carriage empty I can go back and forth fine with no binding jumping etc. The problem seems to lie in the cut I just don't know why. In the picture with the level on the log. (First picture) I stopped the cut halfway through the log due to binding and backed the log out which is why you see a plank on the outside of the level.  

[DMcCoy]

I ran my m-14 with a 42" blade and 1/8" lead.
What I found over the years the inside corner of each tooth dulled quicker than the outside.  It cuts slightly more material and if it drags on the jig back that will also dull the inside corner of the tooth.  When your teeth get dull on the inside corner the saw will pull out of the cut and away from the log.  If the log rubs against the center of the blade it can heat up causing it to dish out.  Your saw then cuts out creating a very nasty feed back loop, eventually pushing your carriage off the guide rail away from the blade.
It is the corners of the teeth that will determine how you saw will cut.  Use a magnifying glass and look.
Does this sound like what you are experiencing?
Dirty logs will make this dulling happen very fast.

I set my guide rail straight using string.   I used a transit to level everything up.  I clamped a pointed piece of metal to the lead edge of the carriage and rotated the saw to use the exact same tooth when setting the lead.  I used a plumb bob to hang the saw.  I found using the guide pins to try and hold the saw in any location was not what I should do. 

Mills can be flat when empty an deflect under a heavy log.  Looks like you are using cribbing for support but your ground is frozen.  Ground heaving issues?

[Ron Wenrich]

Seems to me that you're running your log into the saw.  To get a 1.5" difference in your cut, your saw would probably get really hot, and there would be tremendous wobble at the end of the cut, if you didn't hit the carriage.  

Since you didn't hit the carriage, it seems like the log/cant is moving.  That can happen if there is movement in a headblock/upright or in a dog.  What does the next board look like?  If boards are coming off pretty decent, then its in the carriage/track since the index is repeatable.  If the boards come off in wedges, its in the saw.  The saw could mean sharpening, lead, feed rate, power, saw guides, etc.

The other thing is if the logs are frozen or semi-frozen.  Semi-frozen will have sawdust caking onto the log or slab face, and that can push saws.  

[moodnacreek]

Above DMcoy post is hard to improve on.  I will add that if the wood [the kerf] touches the saw plate your done with that cut and you ruined the next one.

[wardbrook]

Well to answer some of the questions, the saw doctor did show me how much more worn the inside teeth edge was than the outside, so this may have been a problem initially but he then sharpened the blade for me so this should have corrected that problem, I haven't even sawed the one log yet since sharpening so I don't think that's currently my issue.

Yes the mill is set up on cribbing right now until spring when I can get it on something more permanent and build a shed around it. Of course this would be dependent on getting it to actually saw some boards to build a shed. It's only been out there about 10 days and the ground hasn't heaved yet everything still checks level. I'll have to pull the carriage back off to recheck my track with a string but when I welded it together in my shop I used a string and was less than 1/8" from perfect everywhere across the 34' it has a lot of cross bracing and is pretty stiff I only towed it outside a total of less than 100 yards to get it set up it should still be straight but I guess I should assume nothing.

I haven't sawn enough to get the blade hot I've stopped it and checked after a cut gone bad and it's not even warm (I checked at the edge and center incase it was heating uneven) 

The saw does drag on the jig back should it not?

Right now it's so bad I can't really even do one cut so cutting a stack of boards to compare if the wedge stays the same or not isn't much of an option...

It does seem like I am "running the log into the saw" like Ron said although to be more correct I think maybe the blade is pulling the log into itself. 

I guess I could try putting a much smaller log on and see what happens. 

Moodnacreek excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by hitting the "saw plate"

One thing that does come up is the saw guide. Because there is a little warp in the blade when I set the guide so it just misses in one area it will either rub or miss by a lot in another area of the rotation I currently have it set so it doesn't touch anywhere but that means if I can just see daylight in the lowest spot I am .040 away in the highest spot not sure if this matters much or what I can do to fix it other than bring it back to the saw hammering guy but this was a 5 hour round trip.

[Iwawoodwork]

I have read on this forum that slack in your carriage wheels, (need to be shimmed ) might cause some issues, maybe allowing the carriage to shift sideways at one end or the other.

[moodnacreek]

What I meant was that the kerf you are making has to be open enough as to clear the saw except for the teeth. If the lead or the teeth are not just right the saw will not cut a straight path and turn or lead left or right and bend the saw as to try to cut a curve and the wood will touch the saw, warming it and causing 3 problems all at once caused by one problem the only experience can teach.  Because the log is dogged to a ridged carriage it gets pushed straight. Consider following a line while ripping a board on a table saw. You will subconsciously move the rear of the board. On your sawmill this cannot be done , it either feeds freely or does not feed at all. That's why the sharpening and swedging of the teeth is so critical. The rubbing of the face of the log on the gig back tells alot. Of course if the log has sprung that's all it tells you. But it shows if the saw bent a little in or out while it was sawing. When things are going good it will just touch a wee bit. In other words the saw is exactly the same sawing or running in the air.  Sometimes you can see what's going on by feeding the log or cant in the saw a few inches and backing out, then in a little deeper and back out and see if it did not start a new kerf. Your mill will saw lumber when you get this problem solved.

[Don P]

Nice job on the ratchet pawl, I've done a few and I think I'll send you mine next time.

If the track checks out I'd increase lead and see if it starts getting better. It sounds to me like you are hitting it too shallow.

[wardbrook]

I do have some wobble in the carriage wheels I haven't pulled them off to see exactly what's going on with them if the centers are worn out or the axles or what. Maybe that will give me some incentive to finally get my metal lathe up and running. 

Moodnacreek I am following you now. Although I am having trouble picturing if more or less lead would help with this. By Don's reply I'm thinking more so maybe I move it up to 1/8" and see what that does

I understand why keeping both sides of the teeth equally sharp is important but do I swage the teeth on an inserted blade to widen the kerf? I thought this was only a solid tooth blade thing. How would I check if it's "right". I guess I don't know how far sharpened down my current teeth are since I don't know what a new tooth looks like, but if I am remembering correctly the tooth is a trapezoid wedge shape as viewed from the top so every sharpening will reduce the kerf a tiny bit correct? 

I don't currently own the tools to adjust or remove teeth is this something I should be investing in sooner than later? I had figured I'd cross that bridge when I found something embedded in a log that necessitated replacing teeth afterwards...

[wardbrook]

Nice job on the ratchet pawl, I've done a few and I think I'll send you mine next time.

All I did was run a bead of weld on the corners to build up some material and then roughed it out on a grinder wheel and finished it by hand with a file. 
I can generally always make metal do what I want, wood on the other hand...

[DMcCoy]

I ran an inserted tooth blade as well.  I have a swedge but never used it.
I shimmed (aligned) my guide wheels as well, forgot to mention that.
The wobble in your saw could also be in the collars.
I really don't know what else there is.
I have uploaded a document put out by RH Hoe about circle mills.  I have tried a search but can't bring it up.  

[moodnacreek]

Wardbrook, You need the saw wrench and a box of bits [teeth] now. You may want to start with stand-all style. The corners of the bits need to be kept about perfect all the time, like new ones. You can swedge inserted bits to save $ but you have to do a good job.

[Ron Wenrich]

Are you sure your lead is set correctly.  I had a guy call me that said his newly set up mill wouldn't cut.  Went to the mill and checked his lead.  It was set backwards, and he was running his log into the saw.  

Collars could give you where your saw varies widely at your saw guides.  You can use a paper shim to help correct it.  To correct it you'll need to get the collars turned.  

If you swage and get one side of your teeth longer than the other side, your saw will pull to the long side.  A spider gauge will help you keep all teeth the same.  Its cheap and your saw doc probably has one.

[wardbrook]

What would be the advantage of the stand all style bits over standard? I will triple check the lead that I didn't somehow reverse it when I get a moment. 

[moodnacreek]

What would be the advantage of the stand all style bits over standard? I will triple check the lead that I didn't somehow reverse it when I get a moment.

This is hard to explain, that is why you may need them. The difference is that nub changes the action of the sawdust as it goes through the gullet. There also are shanks that do the same thing but not everybody wants to reshank their saw or in a 2 1/2 saw these shanks are no longer available. I had to use stand-all's on my bellsaw and on my Lane when I started. I think it was because of low power and hence slow feed. [that causes fine sawdust]  Anyhow it is a suggestion only.

[DMcCoy]

Oh crap I almost forgot.  If you have slop in your guide wheels then you may not have the lead you think you do if the carriage shifts.

[DMcCoy]

Found it!  Here is my go to book.  Published by RH Hoe a local sawmill blade manufacturer.


https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=87291.msg1337636#msg1337636

[moodnacreek]

Oh crap I almost forgot.  If you have slop in your guide wheels then you may not have the lead you think you do if the carriage shifts.

what is important here is that the cable pulls the carriage straight in both directions. Bellsaws have sloppy carriage wheels and although that is not right they seem to run that way for some reason with no trouble. It is like they just travel the same path every time.

[DMcCoy]

Oh crap I almost forgot.  If you have slop in your guide wheels then you may not have the lead you think you do if the carriage shifts.

what is important here is that the cable pulls the carriage straight in both directions. Bellsaws have sloppy carriage wheels and although that is not right they seem to run that way for some reason with no trouble. It is like they just travel the same path every time.

I went back and looked at his pictures, it uses that same single block as mine.  I added 2 move sheaves to mine to get proper alignment of the cable to both the carriage and drive spool.
My carriage was so sloppy you could push it sideways.  I had to shim it for height and side to side.
His problems are serious, there must be an explanation.
Overheating at the mandrel bearing?  Can't see if it has the old babbet style bearings or roller.

[wardbrook]

The mandrel has the newer style self aligning roller bearings and I replaced them with new when I had the whole mandrel disassembled for the rebuild. Took some measuring and searching to find an industrial supplier without a part number but I found them. They stay cold I have checked them. 

My carriage wheels are sloppy I will look into addressing this. Adding extra sheaves to the cable is an interesting idea for line of pull. Any chance you have a picture of how you set this up?

I think I'm going to order a set of bits and a tool and replace them. That way I can rule out any possible sharpening angle issues etc that could be going on currently it will be good to have spares around anyway. I just have to decide if I should get the standard or the stand-all. I spent quite a bit of time searching this forum last night people seem to love or hate the standall, they either say that's all they use year round and love them or they say they tried them and hated them...but not one time could I find anyone saying why they disliked them specifically, just that they did. So I'm a bit torn. Looks like Menominee has the regular bit on sale currently but really it's a $25 savings so this isn't a deal breaker either way. 

[wardbrook]

Ok I dug the mill out of the snow today and uncovered it. I really needs a shed for it but that's another matter.

The carriage wheel slop seems to be two issues. There's some side to side slop as the wheel fits about 1/8" smaller than the space it's in. I'm not sure that fully shimming this out would be wise as if everything isn't arrow straight on the track if they don't have a little bit of wiggle room side to side it might cause some binding. The holes in the carriage the axle pins go through are also elongated a bit which causes the majority of the slop this will be less easy to fix but is addressable one way or another. 

I pulled the blade and put a dial indicator on the inside collar looks like I'm roughly .005" out on the collar which doesn't sound like much but I had a friend help me with the math and I believe this works out to about .033 at the teeth which accounts for quite a bit of my run out. I played around for a long time with a paper shims at the hub and have got the runout much closer and am a lot happier with the blade guide set up now, there's still some variance but I've cut it by half at least.  

I rechecked the lead and it's not reversed, if I clamp a pointer on the carriage and have it just touch behind one tooth when I advance the carriage the way it cuts when I get to the trailing edge of the blade this pointer is somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8" away from the same tooth. 

I spent a long time looking at the bits and shanks after this. Some of the shanks I can see some daylight under them I'm not sure if this is normal or OK or not. But the biggest thing I noticed is that there seems to be wear on the inside edge of the blade which makes sense as the log has been running into the blade. However as viewed from the top the teeth are actually skewed because of it. To sharpen this out I'd have to take off quite a bit of the teeth as it goes pretty far back so like I said in my previous post I think I should order new bits. I'm guessing/hoping this is the root of my problem.

[wardbrook]

Some pictures of the bits you can see the daylight under the shanks in the third picture. The picture from the inside (first picture) you can really see the shiny spots where it's clearly been run into the log causing uneven wear. Seems like this might be a negative feedback loop. Something caused it to run into the log originally (this may have been back with the old wonky wood carriage) but then the wear causes the blade to lead into the log further exacerbating the issue regardless of what else I address? Wishful thinking or possibility? The corners are now square and sharp but the whole bit is skewed as viewed from the top.

 

 



 

 

 

[DMcCoy]

In picture #2 the inside corner of the tooth is dull, imho.  I use the flashlight method- shine a bright flashlight at the cutting edge of your teeth- if it shines back it is dull.  I know this may seem super, super picky but blades flex away from dull corners, much as you have described.  I think this would cause me problems cutting softwoods like Douglas Fir.
Picture #1 - I can see the shank is shiny, it looks to me that the shank itself is rubbing on the log.  I would defer to Ron on this as his experience is far more than mine, especially cutting true hardwoods, maybe it's sawdust.
Picture #4 - I see 2 issues.  Looks like you are missing the inside corner of the tooth, it happens, I have a small collection of bits that look worse.  The bigger issue is your tooth looks canted to the outside. This would definitely send your saw out of the cut and send your carriage off the track.  I wonder if your shank is loose letting the bit tilt.
I would PM Ron if he doesn't get on here in the next couple of days.
My shanks had a wider portion to help hold the sawdust in the gullet.  Yours don't seem to have that.  I would wonder if you are getting sawdust built up in the kerf while you are sawing( the shiny shank I mentioned above)
I agree with getting some new bits and a shank tool.
I will send some pictures later.
EDit;   I reread your post.  I was under the assumption your saw was heading out(away) from the carriage.  Diving into the log(?) you didn't cut your carriage?  How tight is your carriage to the blade?  Mine is about 1/4" gap from blade to carriage. You mentioned it didn't cut square.  Is the carriage lifting up on the back side while you are cutting? I had to use blocks of concrete on mine when the overhung load- log weight plus saw pressure would lift the back side of my carriage to hold it down.  Belsaw's are light weight

[moodnacreek]

From the photo of that one tooth, the swedge is gone on one side. If you re-swedge  the tooth will be offset and need to be side filed. New bits would be best. Clean the shanks, oil everything, pull the bits in, center the shanks with hammer and dolly and with a rounded piece of steel hammer the shank in the gullet to seat it in the saw. That should cure the daylight problem.

[Don P]

And you are running Stand All bits.