sawing a crooked log

[ethanbrush]

This is sort of a continuation of this thread from 2012, specifically Magicman's reply #3.

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=56861.0

I would like some elaboration on how you guys would cut a crooked log like the one in reply #3.    So I get that for a crooked log you want the hump down, horns up (or vice versa) when you take boards so you end up with bow not crook, and you may have to keep rotating the cant 180 as stress is relieved.  Now here comes the part where I make it more complicated.  Say the log is rather large, say the cant is 18" wide and I want 2x8's.  I assume best practice is still to take those 2X8's out centered on the  log left and right, with the horns up.   But what to do with the 5" wide cants on each side?   IF I flip them 90 degrees and cut a few more 2x8's, I am cutting them the wrong way and they will likely crook.  Do you take your chances?  Fight the temptation and cut something else out of those cants?  Cut them wider so you can cut out crook later?   Or do start the whole thing differently?  What about just slice the whole thing into 2" thick slabs (with horns up) and resaw it into whatever 2x8's you can get after it dries?  I am kinda liking that last idea.  


Edit: I should add this bowed log is long, 21', I need long 2x8's.  Is is eastern hemlock.

[Woodpecker52]

There was a crooked man
who had a crooked mill
who sawed a crooked log
to make a straightened board
but  got a crooked yield

[ethanbrush]

There was a crooked man
who had a crooked mill
who sawed a crooked log
to make a straightened board
but only got a crooked yield

But what if the man and mill are not crooked?  :D

[Sixacresand]

I milled a double crooked pine top log this week while on light duty.  The pith was all over the place and required constant turning and paying attention.  I was able to salvage some nice lumber out of a otherwise 25¢ log.  One reason like milling.  

[Nebraska]

Crooked trees make good firewood and neat looking benches at my house. That has become my philosophy  I don't have an over abundance of time or see a shortage of things to saw so im going to avoid fiddling with  them as much as possible . "Logs roll" to quote @YellowHammer .  I intend to keep that mantra.

[YellowHammer]

Thanks, @Nebraska, for quoting, my "Logs Roll" philosophy, it has made my life better because it's one of the "Take Steps to Save Steps" things I do now, that I didn't used to.

The problem with a real bowed logs for furniture grade wood is that the pith cuts though so many boards, it will cause them all to either bow or crook to the point to make them unusable or at least require more effort and time to straighten them out. So bowed logs just take more steps, when going from log to kiln dried lumber sales and I've pretty much sworn them off. 
   

[Woodpecker52]

Most of my problems and mill disasters were caused by a small log or crooked one.  I learned the hard way it is OK to just say NO. If it don't roll right on the deck she's gone gone gone.

[Magicman]

There is no right or wrong log nor right or wrong way to saw.  Everything depends upon your/your customer's cut list.  What will the lumber be used for?  There are valid uses for bowed as well as crooked boards/lumber, but not a universal use.  Regardless of what the targeted boards are, you will almost always get some of the other.  We are taking something that nature grew and turning it into something that we want.  Accept the variables and move on.

[esteadle]

Bow is usually better than side bend because you can weight bow with boards above it, and it will often dry straight. It's also easier to straighten a bowed board when you use it. There's really no way to straighten a board with side-bend when you are trying to use it. it won't make a stud, and if you use it as a floor joist, the floor will be too high or too low or maybe both. 

But, I've not had good luck with resawing bowed boards. They won't sit right on the mill, and trying to clamp them myself is an exercise in frustration. You need someone to hold the boards down, but then they just spring back up when they are released. If you don't cut them 3x as thick, you'll end up sawing them into 2 useless boards, or a bunch of shims. 

I think it's better to re-saw boards that have side bend. You may reduce the width by 2 or 3 inches, but at least you still have a board after you're done. 

[ethanbrush]

I am not too concerned with Bow in these as they are long, and can be easily pushed straight upon installation.  There is a mid support at the center span (9').  I could see for some applications, cutting wider and cutting out a crook would be better as esteadle says.

What is wrong with you guys, scared of an imperfect log?  IF all logs were perfect, anyone could be a sawyer :D.  I am great at sawing for yield.  I feel where I am lacking is "reading a log" and some of these "best practice" strategies for getting the best possible lumber out of imperfect logs.  That is the part I want to get better at and why I ask this question.  

[YellowHammer]

Sawing a bowed board is a skill that all must learn.

For people who saw other people's logs, it's a challenge, considering what they come in with, but once again, that's where I would hand the customer the Logrite and tell them if if won't roll, it isn't a log and I won't saw it.  

However, I spend well into five figures$ for logs every year, and if I buy a log that is badly crooked, or for that matter, has any defect that affects my percent yield, then we are talking some serious money after awhile.

We also are in different markets, and that is important.  A bowed board is totally unsellable at full price to high grade furniture makers, while a crooked board can be edged after kiln drying, and made to have straight edges, but generally will result in a certain amount of edge drop, for us it's historically been about 10 to 12 percent.  

The opposite is true for common grade lumber because bow isn't considered a defect as it won't make any real difference if its run into flooring or siding.  

Despite our best efforts, we do generate some bowed boards that we just can't fix.  Nobody buys them, they eventually stack up on pallets, so we turn them into interior paneling for our showroom.  A few screws into the studs and, presto, a straight board.

[Southside]

The further you take wood into a finished product the more you begin to realize what is worth the effort, and what is not worth the effort.  It may be that a log has good lumber in it - just not the whole log.  Sometimes you can get a much higher grade out of a log by making it shorter and removing the defects.  Does that give you the 21' you are after?  No - but what good does a 21' 2x8, complete with a big check / split for the last 18" really do for you?  

When I was just a guy that owned timber I thought I knew what a nice tree was, then I began to lay those trees onto the ground and discovered they were not as straight as they appeared to be.  Well, then I learned how to buck good logs from a tree - or so I thought - until I started to run a sawmill.   It's amazing how a straight, steel bed will make what was a straight log look like a banana.  At that point I was turning everything I could into lumber - and what I thought was decent stuff - until I bought a kiln and a moulder.  A couple of days working until 4:00 AM with not much finished product to show for it and I soon realized that all the effort I was putting into saving those trashy logs by making them into lumber was an exercise in futility.  The final product was not what I wanted to put out there.  

Back when I sawed junky logs my waste / edging bundles were big, lots of cut off, cut out, etc.  Now they are bundles of ribbons.  I actually pushed things a bit too tight with a load of flooring that came out of the kiln a couple of weeks back and when we were done edging the blanks I think there was more sawdust under the edger than ribbons in the pile.  My edger man told me to pitch and he would catch and lets just say I got REALLY good at knocking a blade width off both sides at the same time.  With lower grade logs I would have had a lot more movement in that load resulting in lower recovery yield and shorter pieces - and that would have been a problem for me as part of niche is that I make long, clean, flooring, especially my vertical grain pine.  

What I am getting at is that not all logs will give you what you desire, sometimes it's best to find an alternative use / product for them, other times it's best to not even bother with them.   

[Ianab]

What I am getting at is that not all logs will give you what you desire, sometimes it's best to find an alternative use / product for them, other times it's best to not even bother with them.

Most logs have some value. Just that some logs, that value is as firewood. Trick is to being able to recognise that, and cut to match your market. 

Sometimes ugly logs can yield spectacular stuff that sells for $$.  Other times you have some very nicely cut firewood. 

[Mad Professor]

Make stickers. ;D

[Remle]

I am not too concerned with Bow in these as they are long, and can be easily pushed straight upon installation.  There is a mid support at the center span (9').  I could see for some applications, cutting wider and cutting out a crook would be better as esteadle says.

What is wrong with you guys, scared of an imperfect log?  IF all logs were perfect, anyone could be a sawyer :D.  I am great at sawing for yield.  I feel where I am lacking is "reading a log" and some of these "best practice" strategies for getting the best possible lumber out of imperfect logs.  That is the part I want to get better at and why I ask this question.  

Sounds like you have a good handle on sawing already. The only thing , I would say is to watch the movement of the lumber as you saw , if it starts to slide sideways (crook), rotate it 90 degrees and saw . If it then starts to bow , I would continue to saw from their , as usual you need to rotate 180 to relive the stress as you near the pith. I normally saw 1/3 the depth , rotate 180 and saw the rest of the log. Of course following my method will throw off the plan to make all of the log into the same denominational size pieces , but I feel quality straight lumber of any size is better than a crooked stack of the same dimension.

[Southside]

Make stickers. ;D

What's funny is I only make stickers out of really good material.  Straight grain, no knot, jacket board trimmings.  Junky stickers are an effective tool for transforming good lumber into junky lumber.  

[alan gage]

What's funny is I only make stickers out of really good material.  Straight grain, no knot, jacket board trimmings.  Junky stickers are an effective tool for transforming good lumber into junky lumber.  

I'm coming to that conclusion too. Making stickers isn't very fun and it sure isn't gratifying to spend all that time only to end up with a stack of twizzlers.
Alan

[alanh]

Like this white oak brought to me today, fortunately he just wants two cuts on either side of the pith(where ever that goes) to use as half round headers in some rustic camp he`s building. He then asked if I can get any boards out of whats left. I said , probably,but I wouldn`t try to use them any where 

 

[ethanbrush]

Lots of different view points for sure.  Clearly it largly depends on if you are cutting for grade or cutting for money vs cutting wood for personal use.   I am in the latter category and would never let a log rot just because it's not straight.

[ladylake]

 Too many are looking for perfect 8' boards and then cut the up into 2' long pieces when those 2' long pieces could come from   anything.  Steve

[YellowHammer]

I've had people buy 8 footers, make sure they are dead straight, and cut them into 6" long pieces.  

[Ljohnsaw]

The trick to cutting a crooked log is having your mill built on the right kind of frame.  Free on my local CL:



 

[curved-wood]

Let's go for a curved track. Ya let's put a mill on it..May be just a part of it... did your father didn't tell you to be reasonable sometimes
 

[ethanbrush]

Let's back up a bit here.  Am I using the correct terminology?  What do you think of when you hear "crooked log?". Perhaps "bowed" is a more what I am trying to say.  I am thinking if a log that has a gradual uniform bow in it, so that when laying on it's horns, there is perhaps a 4-5" gap in the middle for a 20' log.

[Southside]

That's pretty significant, the problem is that the pith will be in two different planes, along with the juvenille or heart wood, both factors will have an impact on any full length lumber that you try to get out of that log.  Not balancing the heart will cause issues when drying, having the pith running through multiple boards will cause structural issues.  Myself, I am bucking that one into two 10' logs, getting much better lumber, and then finding another 20'