How to encourage blue stain in pine.

[Joe Hillmann]

I have a bit of an unusual problem.  I make rustic crates with the lumber I cut on my mill.  By rustic I mean the rougher and worse looking the lumber the better.  The pine that I cut in the summer naturally started growing blue stain.  Now that the weather is cooling it isn't growing anymore and some of my repeat customers are complaining that the crates I am sending them are not rustic enough.  So is there any way to get blue stain to grow in the fall and winter? 

I have thought of soaking the piles with water than completely covering them with black plastic to trap the moisture and collect the heat from the sun. Any other suggestions?

[mmartone]

Can we get some pictures?

[Peter Drouin]

Dead stack it :D

[red oaks lumber]

wet each layer and dead stack it, that will work until the logs are frozen.

[LaneC]

You may also try going to the "wood processing and drying" part of the forum and ask "Genewergart  wood doc" He is very knowledgeable in the stained, mold and fungus fields.

[Joe Hillmann]

Can we get some pictures?

Pictures of the crates or the lumber?

[BradMarks]

This is interesting. Blue stain occurs naturally in Pines out here that have been standing dead for awhile - such as after a fire. Except for custom work, it is generally undesirable, and therefore there is a huge push to get the dead/dying out of the woods after the fires. I didn't know you could "encourage" it after cutting live wood.

[Joe Hillmann]

This is interesting. Blue stain occurs naturally in Pines out here that have been standing dead for awhile - such as after a fire. Except for custom work, it is generally undesirable, and therefore there is a huge push to get the dead/dying out of the woods after the fires. I didn't know you could "encourage" it after cutting live wood.

I just looked it up.  It appears as if blue stain has different meanings.  In the Rockies and west it is a fungus that is spread by beatles that prevents the tree from defending itself from the beatles and eventually kills the tree, it ends up with the sapwood turning blue.

Blue stain can also be any type of fungus that grows in the wood after the tree is cut and before the lumber is dry,  it isn't the same as mold or mildew.  Mold or mildew grows on the outside of the lumber, the stain grows inside of it.  It can be caused by many different types of fungus.

The second one is the one I am trying to grow.

[Dave Shepard]

You are only going to have blue stain in the sap wood. Do you have a warm garage where you could dead stack your outer boards and keep them moist? Right after the blue stain comes the white mold. That's one step too far. :D

[backwoods sawyer]

Then comes those little grubby things that like to decorate your wood as they feed.
Still rustic ;D

[Nomad]

     If you lived down here, figuring out how to get pine to blue stain would be the least of your problems. :D

[customsawyer]

This is like asking how to herd cats. :D No one has ever done this before but we are all ears on what you learn.

[bandmiller2]

You need heat and humidity for blue stain. The surest way is to cut as much pine as you think you will sell in the hot humid summer months. Before really cold weather you could try dead stacking and cover with black plastic. Frank C.

[Bandmill Bandit]

Without Pine Beatle Pee you are wasting your time.

I have been told by a provincial government foresty guy that there really is no other way to get it. It contains a bacteria/fungus that when exposed to air and moister and warmth it will start to grow.

I would NOT however Recommend growing Pine Beatles.   

[WDH]

The black plastic should work.  There is moisture in the wood and the black plastic will trap the heat that you need.  Not sure if it will work after freezing weather, though, as the fungus that causes the stain may not be active. 

[WoodenHead]

I still have about 20,000 bdft of pine to cut.  Since it has been sitting around through the summer, I'll be seeing lots of blue stain (caused by heat and humidity around here).  I'd be happy to send you some.   ;D

[justallan1]

How about contacting other local sawyers and either working a trade for you "undesirable" perfectly good wood or possibly just buy their logs with blue stain.
I've known guys that did the rustic look on things for people and understand what they are wanting. Another great trick they used was taking a chain with a bunch of bolts run through it and beating the heck out of the boards before building or burning them a bit then cleaning it up halfway and building.

Allan

[Peter Drouin]

I still have about 20,000 bdft of pine to cut.  Since it has been sitting around through the summer, I'll be seeing lots of blue stain (caused by heat and humidity around here).  I'd be happy to send you some.   ;D

Why would you have all that Pine lay all summer? Did buy it or just cut it off your land?

[WoodenHead]

I still have about 20,000 bdft of pine to cut.  Since it has been sitting around through the summer, I'll be seeing lots of blue stain (caused by heat and humidity around here).  I'd be happy to send you some.   ;D

Why would you have all that Pine lay all summer? Did buy it or just cut it off your land?

I buy pine from loggers who only supply it during the months between November and February.  Since I sell lumber I have to guess how much I might need.  At the time it looked like milling was going to be my primary source of income, so I bought a good bunch of it.  Then I got busy doing other things.  So, I wasn't able to saw as much as I had hoped before blue stain set in.   :-\

[slider]

Jo I'm thinking a woman I know stained some pine by using vinegar and steel wool.It gave it a rustic look.

[drobertson]

Leave the bark on the logs, and let them sit for a spell.

[ellmoe]

  Come to Florida. Cut down a pine tree. Turn around twice. Presto! Blue Pine!

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

IMO...Blue stain only occurs in Pine when it is in log form. After you saw a log into lumber and there is no
Blue Stain showing......it is impossible to produce Blue Stain. You can easily produce Mold....but not Blue Stain.

Mold and Blue Stain may in fact be from fungus.....but the Blue Stain that some of us look for MUST occur by natural process and CAN NOT be made to happen.

[Bandmill Bandit]

Seriously guys I have cut lot of pine. I have never seen the blue stain in any logs that did not have evidence of Pine Beetle  infestation.

Nor have I sawn a log with evidence of the Pine Beetle that did not have at least a hint of it.

More than a few people refer to it as denim pine and it commands a premium dollar.

[WDH]

Bandit,

In the deep South, the blue stain fungus that we are speaking of has wind borne spores.  The fungus will grow in freshly cut logs if it is hot and humid, and the fungus does not require the beetle as a vector.  However, if the beetles do attack, the fungus comes in with them, too. 

[Dave Shepard]

My white pine will blue stain without any bug activity. If the uploader was working for me, I could show you plenty. :D I also get blue stain in dead piled lumber.

[Bandmill Bandit]

WDH

Interesting. That would explain the government forestry guys explanation of the pine beetle being a carrier of the bacteria/ fungus that causes the blue stain.

Perhaps with the cooler dryer climate we have here the blue stain does not present with out the beetle as a vector.

[WoodenHead]

Bandit,

In the deep South, the blue stain fungus that we are speaking of has wind borne spores.  The fungus will grow in freshly cut logs if it is hot and humid, and the fungus does not require the beetle as a vector.  However, if the beetles do attack, the fungus comes in with them, too. 

I had a load of freshly cut white pine logs (no beetles/infestation) delivered in August once.  Basically I had 3 weeks before the blue stain started to set in.  That August was a bit hotter and more humid than normal.  Once the weather turns colder blue stain ceases to set in.  That's why most loggers around here cut White pine in the fall/winter.  Usually I try to have most of my pine sawn by end of May/early June.

[WDH]

At the big pine sawmill that I procured logs for, blue stain was a huge issue as logs in the inventory would blue stain unless the woodyard operators kept the logs rotated.  Invariably, they did not, and it was always our (the Wood Procurement Group's) problem  .

[Alligator]

IMO...Blue stain only occurs in Pine when it is in log form. After you saw a log into lumber and there is no
Blue Stain showing......it is impossible to produce Blue Stain. You can easily produce Mold....but not Blue Stain.

This is not the case. If it is above 85° and 50% humidity it will blue in 5 days dead stacked. Heat and humidity are enabling factors spores are the cause. If you have all three factors, you have blue lumber. The more heat and humidity the faster the process. As mentioned before, white mold is dry rot beginning. (Which is actually misnamed it is actually "wet rot")

[barbender]

It seems like a lot of folks get blue stain when they are trying not to, so maybe that would be the route to go ;D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

IMO...Blue stain only occurs in Pine when it is in log form. After you saw a log into lumber and there is no
Blue Stain showing......it is impossible to produce Blue Stain. You can easily produce Mold....but not Blue Stain.

This is not the case. If it is above 85° and 50% humidity it will blue in 5 days dead stacked. Heat and humidity are enabling factors spores are the cause. If you have all three factors, you have blue lumber. The more heat and humidity the faster the process. As mentioned before, white mold is dry rot beginning. (Which is actually misnamed it is actually "wet rot")

Your Pine must be different than mine. The Blue Stain is in SOME logs. Once you saw it into lumber, you have very nice looking Blue Stain showing.....a lot of customers love it.
If you saw a Pine log and there is no Blue Stain and you dead stack it.......you will get some of the ug-lee-iest black coloring you have ever seen and it is not marketable in my area. Dead stacking will not produce the Blue Stain COLOR a customer is looking for. Dead stacking produces fuzzy mold and rot.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Attached is an article on blue stain.  Fungal spores entering sapwood end grain of logs or lumber at a certain moisture range. Preventable by harvesting & sawing at the right time and spread by spores in wood debris.  Maybe one might be able to encourage it by grinding up infected sapwood edgings and spreading the mulch around other logs?

[golddredger]

Blue stain beetle killed pine is all over my area and the entire reason I get free logs all the time. Folks here have grown to like it. Very popular for indoor tongue and groove on the ceiling and walls. To promote more. Here is the tip of the week for you.
Bury the pine boards in the sawdust from the blue stain you just cut! That sawdust is loaded with blue stain spores. Only takes a couple of weeks for it to blue stain a clear board. Not black mold but good blue stain coloration. I lay the boards down on top of 6" of blue stain saw dust on top of a tarp. Then cover the boards with 6" of saw dust and then another layer of boards. So you are making a stack using sawdust as stickers. Then cover it all with black plastic. Check the lumber whenever you like. Once it has enough color remove and clean sawdust off sticker and dry normal. You will find that the sawdust holds heat inside yet mold does not grow. Give it a try all pine in different areas seems to work differently as you can see by the wide varity of posted results. Have fun.

[WDH]

The way to encourage it down here, especially in the summer, is to turn your head and look away for a minute  :D. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

The way to encourage it down here, especially in the summer, is to turn your head and look away for a minute  :D.

smiley_flipping

[Alligator]

In SYP blue stain begins in 4 to 7 days after sawing in a dead stack, at 85° in SE Alabama. From 9 to 14 days you get white mold, the first stages of dry rot. After 16 days black mold begins. If a substantial amount of black mold has occurred you can haul the lumber to the burn pile. I don't know how other spices of pine act in other parts of the country. I spent 20 years fighting 15,000 to 20,000 bd ft a day keeping it stacked. Our stacker with 4 good men would stack 20,000 bd ft a day. It (SYP) will blue in a dead stack even after it has been dried below 16% and dresser and packaged for shipment. I have gone through many SPIB introspection and broke the band on packs of lumber that I knew was 12 % to 14 % when it was dressed, but due to mishandling had gotten rain wet and was blue inside. After hurricane Opal we had an SPIB inspector refuse to let us ship a whole storage shed full of dressed lumber for mold and blue stain. We had to re-sticker every piece.

In another post I made a statement that I thought I knew a lots about sawmilling until I started reading this forum. What I realized was I only knew a lot about sawmilling at CBLC in Slocomb Al. When you go 100 miles in any direction the trees change a little so do the rules. 300 miles they change a lot. As far as I know you may not be able to induce blue in Wisconsin. But I do know it will happen quick in SE Alabama. Chapman Chemicals made a salt solution that would inhibit blue if you dipped your lumber. It would give you about 7 extra days. We had a dip vat between the trim saw and the green chain that stay filled from mid April to October. I was religious about keeping it filled.