Timberland Road and New Ditch

[clemsonee]

I am purchasing a tract of timberland and the owner recently repaired the existing road due to water/mud issues with it. He hired an excavator to build up the existing road by digging a deep ditch beside it and used the dirt to crown it. The ditch is over 1300 feet long and has no crossings installed, so it cuts off access to a portion of the tract unless you jump over the ditch.  A car or ATV cannot cross it due to the depth and width. Seeing this for the first time, I have a few questions that I hope you can help me with. 

The excavator is the only piece of equipment that was used. What else is needed to make it usable since I sink in it when I walk right now. We've one good rain so far. I was told that it needed a dozer to compact it but I'm not sure what is generally used.

Is it normal for a timberland road ditch to be this deep? It seems like a potential place for erosion issues.

We will be using it for recreation and timber, mostly hunting and ATV riding. What is the best thing to do that would quickly prevent erosion?

I want to make this a usable road but I have no idea how much money I am looking at to get it to a state where it can be driven on.  Any help or input is appreciated.



 

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum
Looks like a good ditch for drainage, and now crossings can be made by adding culverts. 

[IndiLina]

I'm not an expert but I'd think planting grass on the road would be a step to prevent erosion. 

[Southside]

That is what I was used to for road building up north, but yea - that's a deep ditch.  I can see where you would have some concern.  

[rusticretreater]

wow, is there some silt fencing installed somewhere?  

I don't know about using a dozer(tracked vehicle), I would rather see a large wheeled vehicle work it instead.  As soon as it dries out, I would be driving the tractor up and down the road closer to the tree line.  

Next you need to seed the slope from the ditch to the road above.  There are folks who can spray a seeding material onto it.  You may have seen them doing this on highways sometimes.  There is gonna be a ton of erosion.  You need some fast growing planting on the road to stabilize it.  

In Virginia, this would be a huge fine waiting to happen due to runoff.

[Gary_C]

From the looks of that clay soil, all you need is patience to let the road dry completely. The next thing is to keep that crown on the road so no water sits on the road surface. And finally try not to use the road when it's raining or wet as you will just mix water into the road surface. If you want an all season road it will take a lot of expensive rock but only after it dries and settles. 

It would help if you put your location in your profile so we know what weather concerns you have.

[Ianab]

Does look a pretty serious ditch, but that's going to depend on the local soil and drainage. The idea of a deep ditch like that is to drain the excess water from the soil under the roadway. The dryer you can keep that the less problems you are going to have. There are areas locally where you would want drainage like that, and some sections of roadway have that size ditch beside them to try and keep the sub-base drained. 

Ditto the comments about seeding it with grass, or if you want all season it's going to need rocks. But whatever you use for cover, it's going to be better if it's drained like that. Crossings are no big deal while it has a nice clean ditch like that. Pipe will be buried deep under the crossing , just might need a longer length so you can slop the sides of the crossing.

[Southside]

If you do rock it put down geotek fiber first. It will save your stone from sinking into the soil. 

[Ianab]

If you do rock it put down geotek fiber first. It will save your stone from sinking into the soil.

Again, local soil? Most locations locally have a pretty stable volcanic ash (that we call "clay"), But you can lay rock down over that, and it will stay there (providing you have some drainage). Other locations with peat or sand? Not so good, and the geotek would help a lot. 
Without local knowledge it's hard to say. 
Getting grass on there would be the cheapest option, and do a lot of good, but it would only be a "light duty" track. Plenty good for ATV riding I guess, once the grass was established, but any serious use would chew it up. 

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, let the road dry out, that nice ditch helps. But clay road is a challenge, will likely need some geotextile and stone on top like Southside mentioned. Up here, not bad for clay, lots of gravel and stone in the soil. On public land that I work on, using clearing saws to thin, it's all excavator road and culvert crossings with the natural flow of water. On private, another story, a bull dozed ditch full of water most of the times. Big berms pushed up on the sides. Way worst, but probably cheaper. :D  We have spring frost to deal with to. I would put in small landings, at high spots or with culvert, for where you want your trails to come to the road. Depends on what your cutting and skidding with as to spacing of those. Otherwise you'll tear your road and ditch to heck in that clay dragging wood. Or avoid that with the reach of a loader from the road, but then if the buts are to the road, you're going to be swimming in the ditch to turn your machine. :D

[thecfarm]

clemsonee, welcome to the forum.
A nice smooth looking ditch!!
Don't look like any rocks either!!  ;D
I just wonder, why was the money spent on such a nice looking road and ditch and then sell it?
On the right, don't look any trees to cut and the left don't look much better.

[Patrick NC]

It's going to be pretty difficult to keep erosion in check with that steep of a slope on the road side of the ditch.  Normally you want a much flatter grade to keep the water flowing slowly.  As soon as it is dry enough, you need to dress the surface of the road with a box scrape and pack it down. Multiple trips with a pickup truck will help if you don't have anything else. If you are only using the road occasionally you could sow grass on the entire thing to establish a root base. That will be your best defense against erosion. Once you establish good grass cover, then you could add some gravel in the center to drive on. As others have said, geotextile fabric may help depending on soil conditions. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Welcome to the forum! Two things off the top. First as mentioned, your location info would go a long way toward helping us understand where you are and the type of weather you are dealing with, as well as soil conditions, frost heave, etc., so filling in your profile more will help with that. Second, you will get more out of the conversation if you participate with comments, thoughts, or follow up details.
 My thoughts: First, it is hard to tell what the elevation difference is between the top of the road bed to the bottom of the ditch. It looks to me like quite a drop. The operator did a pretty job of it...so far, but it's only half done. All that side slope will, over time, wind up right back in the ditch. The side slope might be covered with rubble if it's not too steep to hold it, or as Rusticreator said the spray seeding of grass might be the way to go. But something is needed to hold that slope up. You need to drop some big pipe in for crossings and grade over some transitions to make crossings as was stated above.
 To harden that road bed, geotek and stone would be the best way to go if you are running in heavy equipment. How long is this road? Looks like you will need a lot of material. Perhaps there is someplace on the property you can find that material?
 Sorry to say this but it looks like what you have now is a pretty job that won't hold up very long when the elements begin working on it. OTOH, you have a great start to having a great road, but more work to do yet. Keep it in perspective, this is just my opinion, as with the others, and without knowing the rest of the details any of us could either be right on, or way off.
 Best of luck.

[WDH]

You might spend more on the road than what the property cost .

[snobdds]

That's a nice ditch.  Looks like a real ditcher was used to make it. Good ditches make good roads.

Culverts to get across.  

The clay is not a good surface to build a road on.  It will need road fabric if you ever bring in rock, otherwise the rock will just migrate down through the clay. 

[nativewolf]

So a Clemson EE?  This is a great forum, I was going to gently tease you regarding the Clemson thing (from a NC State alum) but wanted to confirm that first because we have rules of conduct.  SO instead of teasing could I ask is Dabo going to field a team with no QB again?  Inquiring minds would like to know.  We certainly did appreciate the helping hand.  

Ok, seriously.  That road could be expensive.  Looks like coastal SC and if so then that is a sand/clay soil and @WDH is spot on.   Any natural drainage from one side to the other is disrupted and somewhere water is going to pond up, I think maybe there should have been culverts under the road bed.  Does the ditch drain somewhere?  How is it protected as the ditch enters the stream/river.   The road builder could have inadvertently flooded the pine plantation.  Is there any elevation to the site?  

[clemsonee]

I really appreciate all of the responses. This area is the Pee Dee region of SC, so we get a lot of rain and hot temps, but not many deep freezes. This ditch dumps out to a main drainage ditch that connects other ditches on a few thousand acres of timberland and other farmland. Looking at the soil survey, the road is mostly (LY) Lynchburg Loamy

My main concern is erosion, so I am going to find out about the hydro seed cost. I have someone coming out to look at it this week to give me some options and a price to finish it.

[samandothers]

Welcome to the forum!  Good you have someone coming to discuss options.  They should be familiar with the land/soil conditions.  With info from you they can help you plan an approach.  Finish dressing and seeding may be the best option it it is for an occasional ATV ride.  As WDH stated, a quarter mile  of grading/road building and gravel will be some serious money. 

Let us know your approach once you meet with the grading contractor. 

[SwampDonkey]

What does hay cost down there? I've used timothy hay that was cut before the seed fell, and that will seed it also and give erosion control until it establishes. Use solid bales in the ditch if there is a log run on a slope over 10%, to slow the velocity of the water. I'm sure there are diagrams on the web. For a 10% grade, the distance apart to interrupt flow velocity is 60 feet, 20 % at 30 feet intervals. Use them while your grass gets established, not forever, as they will silt up on the uphill side over time. Bales are good for 3 or 4 months probably. If that is indeed loam, the hay will thrive, and that road should dry out pretty good. Just stay off it during the monsoons. Your consultant may have ideas similar.

[Roundhouse]

Lots of good replies. Looking ahead I can see plenty of the steep side material washing down into the ditch until a couple years down the road the sides are more gradual and the bottom not as deep. That's the best case, severe rain events could result in undercutting etc. If it were my property I'd be tempted to run drain tile along the length of it while in it's new "clean" state. After that if there were a source of clean sand I would top the tile with 6" or so of sand. That should preserve the nice deep drainage without it either filling and blocking or scouring too deep. Otherwise if you can top and pack the road surface that should help avoid washouts putting part of your road into the ditch.

Good luck, I've done a bit of similar work by hand and with small machines, this is a great start if you can do some finishing of it before mother nature goes to work on it.

[Iwawoodwork]

Clemsonee,   As others have said grass seeding is the least expensive and quickest way to stabilize both the road and ditch banks then later when the road base has completely dried out you could surface it with rock.    As for the ditch crossings  culverts would be good but cost $$$,  On my property I made log bridges as I have many large juniper trees  and used those at no cost, laid them side by side to about 10-12' wide, then filled in the irregular spaces between the logs with smaller limbs so the dirt covering did not trickle through.  A person could use 10-12' lumber across the logs but I did not, have run my 20,000 lb loader across and my D7e.   
If there is a lot of debris like sticks, pine needles, cones etc, they can plug culverts but not usually a bridge. (personal experience)

[clemsonee]

I got some information back on the road. The guy walked everything down and said the new dirt was really wet and needed to dry for a while. He said it needed to be compacted but he would not do anything until at least the end of May based on how wet it is. If it is done in May, it will probably still need to be "forced" with a dozer and then will need a grader to finish it off. He said I could wait and let it dry out until until June or July and could probably just use a grader. 

He said he would have done the ditch the same way but said not to waste money on grass until we finish the road. I walked the land after 3 inches of rain and the ditch was full but no puddles at all on the entire stretch of road, so that gives me some hope. I'm probably looking at around $4,5000 +/- to finish it off, depending on gas prices and whether or not I need a dozer and grader or just a grader.