The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread

[mike_belben]

i know but where do i get the dirt to put ontop the cardboard to make a seed bed this year? even if i could afford trucking wood chip over i dont think it can support a planting without at least another year of decomposition.  with food shortage in our face right now im not taking the chance.  


i think if i turn it over, let it germinate weed seeds, then disc those to death and plant heavy to cool and warm season clover that the clover blanket can stiffle most of the 2nd round of weed seed emergence and hold it through as the cool clover is replaced by the warm clover.  and i can plant a crop into a clover blanket, it will just feed it nitrogen.  my cool clover is just reviving right now with the sunny warmup here.  i need to figure out what seed ive got on hand to start poking into holes in my clover blanket actually. 

[newoodguy78]

In soils around here buckwheat is hands down the best smother crop I've used yet. Comes up fast totally shades out weeds, does well in poor soils, breaks down very easy and it's cheap. I've personally not had much luck getting pure stands of clover established without a nurse crop for shade. Oats has worked very well as a nurse crop to clover here. 
Just keep in mind all these"regenerative" practices seem to work however they do take awhile (potentially years). I very much respect what you're trying to do but to expect immediate and fantastic results producing usable products the first year is setting yourself up for disappointment in my opinion. 

[mike_belben]

I understand. I am accustomed to a fail succeed rate of about 4:1 so im just in a hurry to get the fails behind me, wont happen if i never start.  My home gardens are established enough to be reliable producers now. The efforts at the remote site are to get it started in that direction and find its flaws.  I hope i can shrink my 5 year tribulation here down to 2 over there. But it is very different ground.





This is my clover cover 5 minutes ago at home.  The bald spots are large wood chip grindings that remain intact.  Or spots i step where dogs have dug.  I lightly mulched the whole bed and it has melted away to the green mat.  I think its white ladino but didnt keep records like i should.  It went in pretty late in fall to not be scorched by an indian summer.


 It looks like my brassica plantings were too late and may fail. I dont know, first overwinter attempt.  The clover, wheat and winter pea can winter croak and "come back" it seems.  Looks like spinach might.  Others are questionable and some kaput.  Id have to find the list to figure out whats what.  

Im hopeful that i can poke in some spring stuff in the coming days and shade to suit.. Maybe keep some clover alive to feed N to neighbors in need.  As always i will report my findings.

[mike_belben]

And i bought a back o buckwheat in 1BC

Thats 1 year Before Crisis.  Whoohoooo i have supplies!

[newoodguy78]

Spinach will absolutely winter over. I put some in last fall, the goal here is to get it in and to the point that the leaves are slightly larger than a golf ball before winter sets in and it goes dormant. 

Was checking it the other day and looks really well,other years hasn't done so well. 
Would think with your milder winters spinach could work well. 

[mike_belben]

Thanks for that info.  Looking closer my spinach was a bit smaller than that and winter a bit harsh at the start but it looks like it may recover partially.  2 weeks earlier probably woulda been the ticket.

[Nebraska]

I have a good friend who gardens pretty big and he uses ripped out carpeting for mulch makes a hole for the plant or row and goes to it. Rolls them up at the end of the year.  Gets a few seasons  out of a roll and then it's done. No weeds.

[mike_belben]

that is not a bad idea at all doc.


i cant afford to be driving over there very many times this year messing with vegetable production, based on fuel costs x 9mpg and 25ish miles one way with my non existent money situation.  so whatever i do has to be pretty hands off there this year. im not going over picking junebugs and tomatoes every day.  

im thinking a shallow turnover to flip the sod upside down as soon as i can manage.  let the roots bake in the sun and try to resprout the seeds.  disk or roll crimp that up hard to eradicate, 1 maybe 2 times if needed.  then broadcast and cultipack buckwheat for june to get the bees coming back.  i will put the bulk of my effort into getting the apples and grapes going again.  

i can crimp or maaaaybe harvest the buckwheat. well, i can definitely harvest it with a sickle and a few tote cages.  he has an offset disc mower, rake, tedder and square bailer that MIGHT work, and MIGHT work behind my tractor wide open in lowest gear, the machine has a pretty good creeper gear. just for a little buckwheat the iron maintenance effort is foolish.  but theres maybe 5  acres of hay that the place produces every year.  he wants to see it grow hay because thats just what the place is supposed to do. a small part of this is im trying to help an old man be comfortable leaving the world, knowing his place is cared for to his liking. he cant get himself adjusted in an electric wheelchair but talks about how he needs to change the belts on this and xyz on that.  i said dell.. its time to let this junk go, worry about the birds and sunsets while you can.  let me worry about the junk.

now if i had hay, i could have cow(s) goats etc but i cannot afford the risk of trading into livestock to overwinter without a GUARANTEED winter feed on hand. with china sending us messages of covid food shortages, we are certain to have food shortage which causes everyone to get animals and then feed shortages.  this is also why i started selecting chickens for best performance on table scraps, cover crops and fermented lawn. i need the feed piled before im willing to get another mouth to feed.

buckwheat could go in with hay as a percentage of ration, the seeds that hit the ground at harvest end up feeding birds for a while and then sow a winter cover blend to try getting the soil prime. i intend to put up bird houses over there that the boy will build and daughter can paint. i stuff my dryer lint into a gallon jug for birdhouse bedding all year.  i want those birds dealing with the pest insects instead of me.  and i want to trade my way into bees, which are gonna need a field of pollen, so buckwheat fits that model and then maybe grapes and apples will rejuvenate.

thats the tentative plan anyways.  too many irons in the fire at all times. i will do what i can and see if im any wiser next year.

if my plan to flip the sod looks like a total mistake after 1 pull, i think i will switch gears and just plant bigleaf vines like spaghetti squash, yellow longnecks, watermellon, pumpkin, cantaloupe, and butternut on hills and let it grow wild in this grass. i can dig a hole, put a few shovels of my compost in it, seed and just keep bringing more woodchip and cardboard/newspaper to stifle the grass around the seeds whenever i visit.  right as the grass is trying to come through the huge squash leaves will cloak them in darkness. i always have a very dense excess of giant squash leaves that shades anything beneath it to death here unless i clip them, which is continuous. wheelbarrow loads of squash and cuke leaves.

never have enough room for all the squash and mellon i want here at the house anyways, and i always get a blight at the tail end of the season. especially on the cukes.

anyways.. please critique- and thanks guys for being a sounding board to help me process my excessive thoughts, as always.  i think through my fingers. ive i dont type, i just stand around in a mental fog and nothing gets done. but when im done typing, there is clarity and action begins. 

[newoodguy78]

Not sure when you get your first frost but that will be the end of your buckwheat. Really like it as a cover crop but it's delicate and not frost hardy at all, don't bank on it making it through the winter. 

Plus side is it grows fast and it's usually done what it's gonna do in 40-50 days around here. 

[Southside]

Ok. You asked for critique. You break that sod and you are inviting every single weed from three Counties to move in. Southern weeds are still upset about the War of Northern Aggression and looking for an opportunity to achieve vengeance.  Ask me how I know.

If you do turn the ground you will need an intensive management plan to be successful. Now and then attention will be a train wreck. There simply is too much of a seed bank in the soil for you to plant and forget about it, no matter how aggressive a cover crop you try. 

Strip tillage with significant smothering of the surrounding ground will retain moisture and give you a fighting chance of success. 

Just don't want to see you crash and burn. 

[mike_belben]

78- i only see the buckwheat as a fast brief hot season crop.  By fall id go to winter cover. 


Jim can you explain what you mean by strip tillage?  Im thinking rototiller rows but not sure if thats what you are meaning. 

I havent got a device that will rip this grass apart. The one little tiller i have, itll will just ball up and stall

[DaleK]

Ok. You asked for critique. You break that sod and you are inviting every single weed from three Counties to move in. Southern weeds are still upset about the War of Northern Aggression and looking for an opportunity to achieve vengeance.  Ask me how I know.

If you do turn the ground you will need an intensive management plan to be successful. Now and then attention will be a train wreck. There simply is too much of a seed bank in the soil for you to plant and forget about it, no matter how aggressive a cover crop you try.

Strip tillage with significant smothering of the surrounding ground will retain moisture and give you a fighting chance of success.

Just don't want to see you crash and burn.

I'm wanting to try some bio strips after my wheat comes off this summer to plant '23 corn into, sold some $12 wheat this morning so hopefully I can afford some extra seed

[newoodguy78]

The other thing to consider is bringing whatever that weed is home with you. Make sure you clean all your equipment the best you can there to eliminate as many hitchhikers as possible. I've got a couple fields with a weed that nothing short of a machete will kill, I've taken to washing the equipment off after going in those fields to help slow the spread.
Had bacterial kanker get into our early season field tomatoes. Came in on a variety they substituted to us because of supply shortages. Wiped out about an acre. I saved that field til absolutely last of the year. When I was done washed the equipment really well then oiled the dickens out of it and hopefully that stops it.
Second to the birds equipment is the biggest weed and disease spreader there is.

[mike_belben]

On the subject of seeds and longevity of being viable. What type of seeds need to be bought every year and which will last a few years in storage?

[Southside]

Strip tillage is exactly what it sounds like. Only till a narrow strip where you are going to plant, the rest remains untilled. In this case you need to manage that sod ground otherwise it will simply fill back in, thus the smother suggestion.

As far as seed goes. In a nutshell, see what I did there, the stuff you want to grow needs to be new each year and weeds will last for at least three human generations in the worst possible conditions.  :D

[mike_belben]

thought just occurred to me.  how about drilling a row of post holes with a 3pt post hole digger maybe 2 feet deep and blending that dirt with a really good compost, refilling the hole and letting it hill over. transplant started cukes, squash etc at the top of the hill and mulch in cardboard and wood chips to block any weed seed.  i would expect the root system to take the path of least resistance straight downward.  the compost ensures widespread nutrients throughout the bore hole, and the ease that the root system will achieve depth ensures cool temps with high moisture access.  

anyone every see anything like this?

[newoodguy78]

Vine crops not sure on , do know a guy that put in Christmas tree seedlings that way with good success. 
You are on the right track by putting them in as transplants in my opinion, anything you can do to get them ahead of weeds will be time well spent. 
All of the vine crops we grow on plastic except for hard squash and pumpkins with drip underneath. If left unattended the weeds between the beds will overcome the crops every time. 

[mike_belben]

i hang mine on strings and let the weeds do what weeds do, crop does fine.  i figure a few posts and high tensile wire could work over there.

[newoodguy78]

Does anyone out there have any experience Oregon State University extension service?
Specifically in regards to vegetable production. 
Been doing a bunch of research on the actual nutrient requirements of sweet corn and when they should be available, found what I feel is a good write up on the topic. Truthfully about the only decent one on sweet corn my search came up with. Plenty of info out there on field corn not so much on the sweet corn side. 

Reason I ask is the local extension around here is not the best in my opinion, great people to deal with but they flounder when asked the hard questions that are outside the box so to speak. 

[beenthere]

Extension people, for the most part, can only pass on information found in the resources available to them. Likely you can find those same resources.
They may encourage needed research elsewhere.

Find those doing the research and doing the experimenting, such as the Ag Universities with professors training grad students, etc.

Sweet corn seed companies would likely be your best source for information. They do the genetic crossing and testing of their seed to get the best results. They may know of the research (and may even fund such research) at the universities.

Good luck.

[newoodguy78]

The issue is the local extension I deal with is based out of the local agricultural university. 
My frustration starts when I start asking these people be it interns, professors or even ones with their doctorates in the field what I feel are the most basic of questions and they just go blank. Literally deer in the headlights look. 
Determined to figure it out even if I fail at it initially. 

[thecfarm]

I had real good luck laying down a piece of clear plastic and weighed down the edges with boards and rocks. 
That killed the grass under it. Just like a greenhouse, but no water.
The sun cooked the grass. Does not take long. 
But that would shorten your growing season up a lot. 
But the way you all are talking, that would only kill the green stuff on top, not the roots.

[farmfromkansas]

I used to plant tomatoes by digging a hole, putting manure in the hole, then a little dirt on top and the tomato in the dirt, then when the roots grew down into the manure, the tomato goes crazy.  Then I found you can grow tomatoes in straight compost.  Also green beans.  My wife planted a couple rows of green beans around the edges of the raised beds, and had enough to freeze several bags, along with about all we could eat.  Squash also did well in straight compost.

[newoodguy78]

Does anyone have experience with white mustard as a cover crop. Been doing some research and it seems to be something that might work for what I have in mind. 

Thinking of trying it as a biofumigant in one of last year's tomato fields. Had bacterial canker get into the field and wiped out about an acre. It's not going into tomatoes again but I'd like to do something to eradicate it. 

Mustard especially certain varieties have high levels of glucosinolates. All brassicas have it at some level that's what makes them "hot".  The levels are highest about 40 days after sprouting. At that point for this application you chop it up and work it into the ground. From reading water is what activates the glucosinolates and the sooner it's watered the more effectively it works. 

I've got more info on it but don't want to bore everyone  :D

[Walnut Beast]

Just got done spraying some
[color=var(--heading)]PHRAGMITES COMMON REED [/color]

Anybody else have any around. The stuff looks cool but they say it's nasty stuff with a crazy long root system
 This stuff is what you want to kill it and get down in the root system.  The plant just laughs at Roundup