Well, I keep piddling with my mortise and tenon, live edge benches. Learned several tips from people here and still trying more. I made my first walnut benches from a few outer edge slabs I had put up. A couple I have been working on have been cut and in the barn 15 years or so. I have started sanding them and even sanded and applied tung oil to one below. What I see is the tung oil is not nearly as obvious on the ash as it is on the walnut. I still have a lot to learn on the sanding techniques and see a few marks on my first walnut bench. next will try Kbeitz coffee grounds fill technique where there are gaps where the tenon comes through. I have also tried using square legs and some are bark-on legs made from the right size limbs and tops. I have a small sweet cherry I and going to cut into quarter rounds for legs and try with some of my wild cherry slabs.
I tried one small walnut slab with a crotch but messed it up putting a leg on a thin spot. I cut it down to about 2' long and my mom wanted it so it has been living in Fla for a week now. It actually turned out well but it is almost as costly and difficult to make a 2' bench as a 6' one.
A local store sold a small bench a week or so on consignment for me. The buyer in that case liked the bark on legs. Others prefer the square legs. To each hi own. I will take the lady one of the walnut benches next.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0288.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1503274083)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0289.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1503274131)
The ones in the middle are unfinished. Both outer benches have tung oil. Note the difference in the effect between the walnut and the ash. The 2 darker benches in the middle are sanded but no tung oil yet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0290.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1503274176)
I see that you turn the live edge under on many of the benches. I have not done that. I like to show it off.
You are getting into the swing of things for sure. A fine finish can really make a piece more beautiful, and therefore, more valuable, but it requires a good bit more time investment. It is not unusual for me to spend up to a couple of hours sanding a bench through the sequence of grits.
WV Sawmiller
Like your benches and here is one I made out of sweet gum 2 1/2" thick
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32340/IMG_0245.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1503280657)
Danny,
All of the walnut benches were made with first cut slabs so the bottom/round edge is still round. The flat sawed portion is the bench top.
The ash benches show the EAB borer tracks.
I can easily see where it does take several hours for the sanding. Not sure the ash will sell for enough to use that much effort so may restrict detailed finishing to walnut and cherry and such.
The last log I sawed for my customer yesterday was a 5' red oak with a crotch. The customer suggested 4/4 boards till I told him it was just aching to become benches and they agreed so I got 5 - 2" thick live edge bench blanks about a foot between the sapwood. I turned the crotch up and trimmed it to 22" so I could get it between my blade guides. I even left a knot on one side because of the character it added. We got the natural red color plus the figure from the crotch plus the knot and I would love to see the finished benches. I even offered to take one home and make it for them but they declined my offer.
While the standard practice is to cut the log at the bend to maximize quality lumber the more crooked the log the better bench it makes so if there is a serious bend I immediately think benches.
Elk,
Good looking bench. Are those Logrite legs or your own design?
Yes they are logrite legs. I have some RO slabs that is ready to finish so I may take
those legs and use those on the RO or take the time and fab some new ones.
Howard, now I understand.
Elk, that is a great use for the sweetgum. That is a very nice bench.
I applied tung oil to 3 more last night. Will need to apply several more coats before the desired finish is achieved. My next step will be to try putting polyurethane on there. I see my original walnut bench got scratched and I had to apply more tung oil and hope the polyurethane with provide better protection.
My concern is how well the polyurethane will stick to the tung oil finish. Anybody ever tried that? Any advice on such?
I sawed some small sweet cherry logs/tops into quarter rounds for bench legs and will cut the tenons on them today. They are slightly lighter in color than the wild cherry but may work well together. I plan on putting them on some wild cherry live edge planks and crotches I have in stock. Several of them had black ants which resulted in unusual figuring that may make nice benches. No good for structure work but fine for benches and such. We will see.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on August 24, 2017, 08:17:15 AM
My concern is how well the polyurethane will stick to the tung oil finish. Anybody ever tried that? Any advice on such?
I haven't tried it but my guess would be that it will not stick, or at least not for long. Like dissolves like so the solvent in the polyurethane shouldn't have any problem with the tung oil. The problem will likely come from the polyurethane not being able to go poly. It depends on forming long chain molecules. All that I've used has warnings against thinning. Thinning reduces the number of long chains that can form, so that the end product is less cohesive.
Won't hurt to test it, but don't be shocked if it starts peeling or flaking if it solidifies at all.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on August 20, 2017, 08:11:35 PM...I still have a lot to learn on the sanding techniques and see a few marks on my first walnut bench...
Or put sanders down and learn to use a card or cabinet scraper. I don't say this to be sassy, for me it is simply a better way to finish wood.
Clark
Clark,
Short of picking at me about Ponderosa pine you will have to work pretty hard to hurt my feelings. I had never heard of a hand or cabinet scraper. From what I can see they look pretty neat. Do you use them on wide stuff or just on narrow boards/beams? Most of what I will be working with for benches or mantels or such would be from 8-16 inches wide and 12-13 inches wide more common. Many will have crotch wood on at least one end. How difficult is it to match up the marks when dressing the wood? Do you use a handle with the card scraper or is it just held at the correct angle in your hand? Several I saw on line just looked like a beveled piece of steel.
I am intrigued by this possibility.
Mostly they are "sharpened" with a burnisher rather than a file.
MM,
I saw that in some of the comments about them but do you use a handle or just the piece of steel?
Take the blade out of a utility knife and scrape a piece of wood with it instead of slicing. Now get a piece of steel of about the same thickness, but not so brittle. Square off one edge. Flex it so it has just barely a curve and try pushing and pulling it across some wood to scrape it. You can't get as fine a finish with these quick and dirty scrapers as with a scraper with a burnished edge, but you can get an idea of how a cabinet scraper works. It may cause you to use sandpaper only as a last resort. :)
Found a decent example of burnishing a scraper (http://woodgears.ca/scraper/) like Magicman was talking about. (Not so sure about this guy's initial filing, but apparently it works for him).
Grouch,
Thanks for the info. I will keep investigating this possibility.
Google "wood scraper burnisher". Here (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BZZ0PS/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=78615097833030&hvqmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_kabf54o8z_b) is an example of a burnisher. Anything harder than the scraper will work such as the back portion of a chainsaw file or drill bit, but you would not have much working room.
WV - Dodgeyloner turned me onto the possibilities of a card/cabinet scraper. He had a bed set posted on here and claimed to use one sheet of 220 sandpaper on the whole thing. Most of the finish work was done with a card/cabinet scraper. Or at least, something to that effect.
For the size of project you're doing I'd recommend a cabinet scraper. Stanley #80's are very common, you can pick one up on eBay for less than $20. It uses a beveled edge with the bevel turned into a hook which, in my experience, is an easier way to "sharpen" these tools. You only get one edge per side (vs. 2 with a card scraper) but it is simple and easy.
The beautiful thing about a cabinet scraper is you can take a piece of wood that is somewhat rough to the feel and scrape it down to a surface that is basically ready to finish. Best results are obtained when starting with a better surface but the idea is that you only need one tool to finish the top. The #80 has a screw adjustment that bows the blade out which creates a very shallow cut in the surface. It might be difficult to obtain the perfectly flat surface but you can get close.
On most projects this is how I use it: Run the slab through the planer getting a surface that is 80% of what you want. After assembly you can come through with a cabinet scraper working the top to a surface that is 98% of what you want. Any areas with difficult grain can be worked with a card scraper (the ability to hold it at different angles makes it more versatile and better suited to tough spots) then you can take some fine grit sandpaper and work out any remaining ridges from the cabinet scraper.
The benefit to these tools is that you spend considerably less time sanding which also means less money spent on sandpaper. Your lungs will also thank you. The unexpected benefit is in using these tools. The satisfaction that comes when you see these super thin shavings come out of the tool leaving a surface that can be finished is eye opening and makes you want to use the tool more and more. I've never had that experience with a sander.
Clark
I've used a lot of things to burnish a scraper. The shaft of a big screwdriver does work, but slowly. The best I've found is a knife steel. Its the thing grandpa used at Thanksgiving sharpening the knife before carving the turkey. ;) Grandpa wasn't happy. :D
For initial scraping, I don't even burnish. I just draw file the edge square and start scraping. An old plane iron rotated 90 degrees makes a good scraper. Just don't try to flex it too much.
Are corners left square or a bit of a rounding to keep them from leaving a mark?
Bowing the scraper keeps the corners out. I round the corners and burnish for final scraping, though.
Never bought a scraper; always made one from things on hand.
Took a load to the local flea market today and sold 3 then dropped another off at an antique place on consignment to replace one she recently sold for me.
One customer bought 2 heavy/4" thick prototypes that I tried but no longer make. I was glad to get rid of them and can use the space and make more now. One thing I see I need to do is get a can of furniture polish to dust and shine the finished benches especially the walnut ones.
For transport and storage I find the 4' benches nest well between the legs of the 6' benches. I assume all would nest in 8' ones but that seems longer than most people want to buy.
I use cabinet scrapers
They work great
I cut some live edge slabs out of a chestnut oak at my son's place last week. The log had a serious curve in it and I cut 4-2" slabs out of it then cut some 3X3's out of a 9" log for legs. Cut the legs to 22" long, put them in my vice, rounded off the corners with my drawknife then cut tenons on the end with my lumberjack tenon cutter. The wood actually cut much easier than I was expecting. One of the slabs cracked badly when I trimmed it on the radial arm saw and I likely won't use it. Below is one of 3 I have made so far. I still need to finish them. I did get some cabinet scrapers and am liking the results. I sand the bench with 80 grit sandpaper on a belt sander then scrape with the scraper to help remove any high spots.
I think I will hold out and sell these as a set because they are just aching to encircle an outdoor fire pit. I can see a family with kids sitting on them toasting marshmallows for smores or hot dogs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0324.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505088756)
These make a real nice circle when put together.
Very cool.
I finished sanding all 3 of the curved benches as last shown. Used my 3X21 inch belt sander with 80 then 120 grit belts then cleaned the dust off and painted and 3 with a good coat of polyurethane and left them drying in the shed. I did not try finishing with tung oil or linseed oil like I do with my walnut or cherry and some of my ash benches. I will see what they look like in the morning. The can says one coat is all that is needed but I will see if it looks like I need another coat. I plan to take them to a flea market Saturday and advertise them as a set. They do make a nice circle.
I cut a curved Bench like yours. I call it my Thinkin Bench. ;D Got it next to the Mill sitting on to Halves of a stump.
I took a load of benches to 2 flea markets this weekend. First one was a bust - lots of lookers, oohs and aaahs and people taking pictures saying they are sending them to a friend, spouse or relative but probably taking them home to try to make some themselves. Some even said "Oh, those are easy to make." They are if you have a sawmill, logs, tenon cutter, vice, a large high torque drill to run it, belt sander and time to finish them.
Today I sold a couple. The most rewarding was just a small unfinished bench made from an ash crotch. A lady saw it and fell in love with it for a coffee table. I never thought of using one that way but should work well. She also wants me to make her a couple of matching end tables out of live edge, 2" ash. Only difference is the size and height. She is to call back with the sizes.
One thing I noticed on my set of 3 curved benches as shown above, was that they want to tip over because he center of balance is so much off center. I decided to re-work them and brought them home and added a 5th leg in the center on the back side of the curve. I made 3 new legs from my bench leg stock and cut new mortises and installed them and trimmed the excess on top and put back on the mill and cut the new leg to the same length and angle as the others. They are much more stable now and I am no longer reluctant to sell them. I just could not stand the thought some kid might get hurt on one of them.
When I went to sand the top around the new leg with my 3" X 21" belt sander I found the polyurethane gummed up in places. I finally ended re-sanding the whole bench. I will re-do the polyurethane later. I ran out of daylight with 2 more benches to re-finish.
Is there an easier or better way to remove the polyurethane? Sanding a small bench like that is not an overwhelming task but...
Any suggestions or advice on refinishing the other 2 benches?
Re-finishing is one of the advantages of using Tung Oil because the finish is in the wood rather than on the wood.
Lynn,
Are you suggesting that I sand the other 2 benches then use Tung oil instead of Polyurethane next time? I don't know what Tung oil looks like on Chestnut oak. I know it does great on Cherry and Black walnut. On ash it gives it nice shine but not make the same "Pop" that it does on the other 2.
Ever try it on Chestnut oak? The poly looked good, any idea how Tung oil compares?
Tung Oil will never have the "built up" glossy shine that Poly gives. I just happen to prefer the more satin finish that Tung Oil gives, plus the ability to refinish if an accident happens.
It is all that I used back when I was doing woodworking. I have also seen a few of Danny's benches that he finishes with Tung Oil. :)
I would finish one with Tung Oil and see how it compares, but you are selling. You must use what the customers want and that might very well be Poly.
These 3 benches were the first time I had used Poly (Except for the quart I poured into my ant nest Cherry Crotch bench which promptly leaked out). I expect there is a very good chance these 3 benches will sell as a set and will be used outside in someone's backyard around a fire ring especially since they are a white oak and more weather resistant than the other woods I have been using. I want to be sure to use the treatment that will hold up the longest/best under those conditions. Suggestions?
Poly will not hold up outside in the elements. Spar varnish is better. However, both will turn black over time and peel. 100% pure tung oil will impede water penetration into the wood and can be easily re-applied as additional coats over time to maintain the finish. The more oil the wood can soak up, the better the weather resistance. The wood will darken to a dark gray brown due to exposure to the elements and the UV rays. Not really anything that you can do about that.
Danny,
Thanks for the info. I went ahead and sanded the other 2 today and put the first coast of pure Tung oil on. If first appearances hold true it promises to leave a real nice finish. There is a good but of quartersawn figure showing on the benches. I'll put a few more coats on over the next few days.
Howard,
I only use Pure Tung Oil that I have to order on-line. The "Tung Oil Finish" that I can get locally only has a very little bit of tung oil in it plus a bunch of other stuff. This is where I get it.
https://www.realmilkpaint.com/shop/oils/pure-tung-chinawood/
Danny,
Thanks for the source. I'll check them out for my next re-supply.
There's a big 3 day flea market coming up with potentially lots of upscale clients so my son suggested I take a load of benches over. I figured I needed more stock so spent the day working on making some more ash benches.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0327~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505949670)
I cut up a bunch of 3X3's into 21" leg blanks. On the right is a stack of cherry quarter round leg blanks awaiting tenons. The drill has the Lumberjack tenon cutter attached and a blank is in the vice for trimming. Everything is sitting on a stand I built on to the front of my pole barn mostly for planing lumber. I added a power plug right behind the stand. Behind and to the left you can see, Blackjack, my quality control department manager inspecting the operation.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0328.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505949888)
I clamp a leg into the vice then partially round off one end with a drawknife so the tenon cutter will slip over. I built a few then stopped and sharpened both the drawknife and tenon cutter blades using my little Dremel tool type chain saw sharpener. They both cut much better when sharp.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0329.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950046)
The next step is to cut the tenon on the end while the leg is still in the vice. My cutter leaves a 3" long X 1.5" dia peg with a 60 degree shoulder as shown.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0330.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950148)
This took several hours but I finally finished 7 sets of legs before I ran out of blanks and stopped.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0332.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950279)
I moved my 3 piece curved oak set out of the shed and added another coat of Tung oil finish. Note the 5th leg I added at the back side of the curve because of the off center balance. Without this extra leg these benches wanted to tip over backward.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0334.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950467)
Next i went to my stock and selected some 2" thick X 14' long X 15"-18" wide live edge ash slabs and cut 4-3' long pieces. This left a 2' long piece I need for a future project.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0335.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950686)
I next painted the fresh cut ends with anshorseal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0336.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950751)
One by one I started cutting the 1.5" mortises near each corner angled slightly outward with my drill and a spade bit. As each penetrated they tried to hang reminding me of the dangerous tool thread currently active.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0337.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505950928)
Blackjack conducts a spot inspection. Actually he and Trigger his horsey companion are eating the white oak acorns as they fall off the overhead tree.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0338.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505951020)
I glue and insert a set of legs using the baby sledge. If the angle is not quite right I use a large pipe wrench to rotate the leg to a better angle. The tenons and nearly always slightly angled one way or another plus the mortises are hand drilled at the best guestimated angle. The Japanese pull saw is used to trim the excess from the top - another tip from another FF member that works well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0339.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505951294)
Shows the typical excess tenon length to be trimmed off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0340.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1505951370)
I finished 4 benches before I ran out of daylight. Tomorrow morning I will cut the next 14' slab and make 3 more 4' long benches.
The only step not shown yet is to take the benches to the mill, turn them upside down on the mill, clamp them securely, set the band wide and make one pass at 17" high and this will cut all 4 legs on each bench at exactly the same height and angle.
They are ready for sale as unfinished or for sanding and staining. One lady bought one like this for a coffee table last week and I'll use the 2' leftover pieces to make her a couple of end tables if she calls back as promised.
The middle leg on the curved benches is a nice solution.
Love the Race Horse. ;D
That tenon cutter looks like a candidate for the scary tools thread.
Your spade bit won't hang if you stop drilling when the point first comes through and then finish the hole from the other side.
Danny,
Yes it works well. Keep that in mind if you ever happen to make any with serious curve in the wood.
Dave,
Had him 20 years. He was my wife's 20 year anniversary present. He is great at teaching you patience.
Grouch,
It definitely could be a candidate. I keep thinking one of these days I will get a good deal on a big high torque drill press and mount it there. It will nearly break your wrist when it hangs in the wood although the worst danger is the spade bit hanging on those angled cuts in the slabs when they exit the backside.
After I sharpened the blades yesterday I tended to run it on a higher speed than manufacturer recommendations but was real careful to just feather it into the wood so it cut very small chips instead of big curlycues and less binding involved.
Howard, I admire your benches, and hopefully you will soon have to make more. 8)
Great work and thanks for the step by step!
Could you lay the bench top on a backer board when using the spade bit to keep it from grabbing when it exits the bench?
Sam,
I will try that on the next ones. I have to a degree but not enough. I did find I can sharpen the spade bit and it works better. I bought a 6" file a few minutes ago which should work for my drawknife and spade bits. That ash eats up the edge on the bit pretty fast.
MM,
Let's hope so. I finished 3 more and put all 7 on the mill this morning. Will make a couple more to take with me this weekend. Actually think I will use up one more 14' slab to make 2-5' and one more 4' ash benches. Will look through my cherry and walnut stacks for more there too. Need to cut one more ash log for leg blanks. Likely will cut a 6X6 for crib blocks out of the middle and get some 3" side lumber for legs. May be quarter round but that will be fine. Some customers prefer that over square stock.
I use linseed oil on the benches I make that are for exterior use .
You can add extra coats to get the finish you like
Bruno,
The only time I used Linseed oil was on a couple of ash benches and they turned very yellow, almost orange. I am scared to try it on walnut or cherry because I know the Tung oil does a beautiful job bringing out the chocolate color in the walnut and the red in the cherry. The Tung oil also did a good job on the Chestnut oak benches too. Have you tried it on Walnut or cherry and know what it looks like with them?
I made another 4' walnut bench this afternoon from a slab I had in stock. I did most of the initial sanding and used part of the sawdust mixed with wood glue to fill a gap or two around the tenons. It should be ready to finish sanding in the morning. I'll complete sanding and start the first of many coats of tung oil.
I also sawed up about a 13"X8' ash log into 3X3's for more legs so i should have enough bench leg stock to make several dozen more benches. I'll try to make at least 3 more ash benches and maybe another walnut and/or cherry bench from materials I already have on hand. First i need to confirm I can get a spot a the flea market which starts tomorrow. i just want to take a load over and come back Saturday.
Howard, don't stack/display all of your benches at the same time. Keep a good portion away from sight and then if someone wants to choose, let them. An abundance of benches indicates that there is no shortage and invites bargain hunters. :-\
Lynn,
Thanks for the suggestion. The problem here is I am mostly going to be selling off my truck/trailer and need to take enough stock so I don't run out. Right now I have a couple of 4' cherry and may take my project bench with the ant nest I have not had time to fill with epoxy yet. I have several 4' and up to 6' walnut benches and several of each size from 3,4 & 6 foot and may may 2 - 5' unfinished ash benches and one finished 4' ash bench tomorrow. I also have the 3 piece oak set.
I'll leave most on the trailer and set out a decent selection but I can't totally hide the others. I figure I'll also take several rough cherry and pine fireplace mantels. Most of the time these flea market trips are more advertising for swing than selling lumber or benches and such. This one is mostly out of my normal sawing territory and I'd prefer not to commute that far for mobile sawing jobs - although I will if they want to pay the mileage. We will see.
I built a couple more primitive benches last week. One used one of my 4' Red Oak Lictenburg engraved slabs and this 6' walnut bench I promised to a guy I got several loads of walnut and a few spruce log a year or so back. It is about 13.5" wide at the widest point - just wide enough not to fit in my 12.5" planer. I sanded it with my 4" belt sander till it gave out (Dust bag needs repair) and I put a few coats of tung oil on it. I sawed splits in the tenons and added wooden wedges to tighten the connection. On the oak bench it was such a tight fit I could not get the wedges in so I used metal ones like you use on a sledge hammer handle. It is really a pretty piece of wood.
I really need to find a better way to finish the wood - I probably just need to use more elbow grease.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/6_ft_walnut_bench.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567004407)
I put 4 of my benches in a tourism center down in Virginia and discounted and sold 6 of my discontinued models and such last week. One thing I have discovered is benches longer than 4' are a hard sell. I guess because they don't fit in the back seat or cargo area of a van or SUV. From now on I am going to concentrate on 3 & 4 ft long benches unless I have a special order for something longer. We have a street festival coming up later this month and I want to make a few for that. Many prospective customers will be coming in on special trains and it may be too much to hope for them to take one back but other tourists will be coming by road.
I looked through my stock and found a small wild cherry LE 8/4 slab that had been drying a year or so. I trimmed a little off one end that was pretty rough then took a wire brush to it and knocked off the bark and punky sapwood remaining. I drilled out the mortises with a 1-1/2" spade bit and grabbed 4 mostly quarter round legs out of my stock. I took my draw knife and trimmed off the bark and sanded them and applied a light coat of tung oil. I drove the legs on with plenty of wood glue but noted the tenons had shrunk a little and they were not as tight as I like. I let them dry overnight, cut the excess off with my Japanese pull saw then put the bench on the mill and cut all 4 legs off to 17" height. I sanded the benches with 80 then 120 grit belt sander and drove a steel sledge hammer wedge into each tenon. I then tried something new - I counter sunk the wedges about 1/4" or so and made up some wood putty with the dust from the sander and wood glue. I packed that in the mortise around the tenon and wedge split and let it dry overnight. This afternoon I sanded the excess wood putty off and applied a light coat of tung oil. I am happy with the results and will try the countersinking the wedges more and custom made wood putty in the future. I think this is a size and finish that will sell more readily to my markets.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1501.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1570391545)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1500.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1570391537)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1502.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1570391540)
Are you using a tung oil with uv blockers?
@btulloh (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) ,
This batch is 100% pure tung oil. No additives. I bought a quart a few weeks ago and ordered a gallon last night and I also ordered 2 more lbs of wedges from my supplier (House Handle Company in Cassville MO).
What is the deal with the UV blockers? Do they help protect the wood or what?
They really help maintaining the color of the wood for outside use. That may or may not be desirable depending on the look you're going for.
They may help keep the finish from breaking down as fast.
These are not really intended for real outdoor use or I'd have used white oak or locust to build them. I figure more on a porch or inside a cabin or man cave or such. (Of course once purchased the customer can bore holes in them and use then in his outhouse for all I care. :D )
I know UV will break down epoxy and poly and such but does it have as much effect on tung oil?
@WV Sawmiller (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064)
I was just curious what you were using, not finding fault by any means.
There used to be some good exterior tung oil products available at local retailers that I used and liked, but not any more. No longer available. The things I've tried from local sources have not been very impressive and I'm kinda tired of buying things and not using them. I need to stop by a marine supply house and see what they have these days.
There have been some good discussions about finishes, in relation to outdoor furniture as well as log cabins. Some of these sound pretty good, but I haven't ordered any of them yet. The only thing that irritates me more than paying for products locally that I don't like is paying for products AND shipping and finding out it's not what I'm looking for.
I'm pretty sure it's the EPA that has made some of my go-too finishes disappear. ::)
==
It looks like you're getting a handle on your local bench market. Nice going. Keep us posted.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on October 06, 2019, 05:00:13 PMI know UV will break down epoxy and poly and such but does it have as much effect on tung oil?
Somewhat, but tung oil in general (as you no doubt are aware) breaks down outside anyway.
Some people like to keep the color (especially ERC) and some like the weathered gray. That's where the UV blockers really help.
I like your benches and the countersunk steel wedge. That's a good solution for certain applications.
@btulloh (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962)
I have tried using wooden wedges a couple of times. To do so I had to split the tenon (I used a jig saw) before installing the bench leg then I still had trouble driving the wedges in after I put the legs on. This is much more work and time consuming. The steel wedges are very easy to install even without pre-splitting the tenon and they work very well to tighten the tenon but they don't look as good as wood so countersinking and filling will custom wood putty made of glue and sawdust is one option. If the wedges were counter sunk deep enough I could just drive a wood wedge piece on top then saw off the excess, sand it and apply finish.
I still need to find me a good piece of small scrap flat iron to use to countersink the wedges. I just used a flat washer held it with a pair of pliers while I hammered with a 3 lb baby sledge and it worked but a flat bar would have been easier to use.
BTW - I never interpreted any of your comments or suggestion as criticism but thanks for your concern. :D
Fine looking benches WV! I have made some of these and given them away as gifts as I learned. I find they are easy to make between other work and probably don't take much time. If I had to guess, a short bench takes me around 1-2 hours, spread out over several days of glue or finish drying. Would you say yours take about the same? or do you put more time into the fine finish, which looks better than mine I think.
The wedge idea you use is interesting. How wide are your wedges? I have not yet felt the need to wedge, the glue seems to handle fit up pretty well.
I had been considering making a bunch of these over the winter as I have slabs available and finding an outlet for them. I agree with your assessment about length and had not considered that before. I also see milking stools selling well at craft fairs, because they are small, I think, and cheaper.
I use either tung oil or danish oil on mine, then cover with poly because they are more usable for outdoor purposes. Maybe I should try just the tung oil on one or two and see what wins. I need to make some stuff I can sell.
Again nice stuff. I wonder if this is a major part of your income or just a filler to make good use of your materials and add a few bucks to the till?
Tom
Here's one of mine:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF2794.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1562343105)
Tom,
Looks similar to what I make only looks to me like you drill your mortises straight and I angle mine. If the board is wide enough straight works fine. I have made them with wood as narrow as about 8" if I find the right slab.
I like the milking stool idea and may try that with a short piece I cut off today. I thought about making them with big cookies and using 3 legs. Would be the same when cutting on the mill.
The steel wedges I use are about an inch wide and 1/8" thick and 1-1-1/4 inches long. I bought 16 off a guy today for $3 at a flea market which is enough for 4 normal 4 leg benches. I ordered 2 lb last night with should do 20-25 benches. They are the same ones used in ax or sledge hammer heads and they work very well to tighten the tenon especially if the leg was a little green when cut and shrunk a little during drying. I wish I could find a 1-7/16" spade bit. I might could find a 1-3/8" bit.
What I really would like would be to find an auger bit 1-1/2" or the above sizes as that should cut much easier and smoother. I need to start looking for them I guess.
Time spent sounds about the same as I do. They are a hobby/side line for me right now. Also some really ugly logs are just begging to become benches but would not work well for anything else - Well Brad would probably make special knee braces out of them but I haven't found a better use for them. :D
I have not tried the poly over the tung oil and was led to believe it would not stick. Do you have problems with it sticking?
No there is no issue with adherence at all. I allow time for the oil to soak in and dry. putting the poly on top makes it more weatherproof if left outside. I am told it will yellow a bit in the sun. But when water hits it, it just beads up. I did a slab back in July that I used as a table at a camp and it was out in lousy weather for a week, used as the cook table and bar. It took all the abuse just fine and wiped clean easily with no staining from coffee are all the other stuff that was spilled on it. Then it went to a neighbors for a party as the drink table, then to another neighbors place for a wedding and it still sits there (I should fetch that back home). I treat it like a test able. The only thing that has caused damage is throwing it in the trailer on edge and driving a 100 miles with it bouncing around with no padding. I gave it a quick sanding and another coat of poly and it was good to go.
I like the poly finish and that it makes the wood pretty bullet proof to the weather and food/drink stains.
[edit: Oh and my legs are angled, they just don't show in this photo. these photos are in my gallery and also in my sawmilling thread back around June or so.]
Here is the bottom of that bench. It's a narrow bench so the leg angle is slight. Yeah, they still look straight here, but they are not. I would say a 4 degree angle, give or take 1/4 degree. ;D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF2793.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1562343102)
I think I saw somewhere where somebody had a slab for a bench and it was not thick enough for the tenons to hold well enough so he glued and fastened a spacer over the spot where the legs were attached. It did not have to be the full length of the bench nor did it show. A 1/2" to 1" additional spacer gave the tenon a lot more bite and a better hold. Just adding a 4" X 8" piece of half inch plywood where the mortises are drilled could do the trick. I have a few pieces where the mortise is only in about 6/4 of wood and they get loose. Adding another half inch would have solved that. On the round pieces I guess you could use thin laminated additions to fit and still build up around the curve.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1522.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1571425392)
My last bench project were these 2 White oak ones. The legs are off the same 8/4 LE slabs. The long one is 36" and short one is 30". We will see if the shorter benches sell better.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1523.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1571425393)
Tung oil applied on the bench and legs. These are strong enough but I prefer a little bigger legs. Probably 2.5" is about right.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1524.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1571425397)
I also included a couple of benches sawhorses I recently made off a 7' poplar top and the stretchers are shorter pieces salvaged off my recent order for 3" battens. The rejects with too much wane or curve still had good salvageable pieces for projects like this.
Next project is a couple of 42" curved locust pieces. I have not measured to see if they will fit in the planer or sanding all the way.
I like 'em WV! they just get better and better. Those mortise holes and pegs seem to fit a bit cleaner on these, I see no small voids like I get sometimes. My only comment is that I like the 2" legs, they seem sleeker and not as clunky. But I guess it is relative to the length also. Short and fat is not very appealing.
These look real nice and should sell fast. DO you just do one coat of oil or go back over a few times?
Now you got my juices flowing to get some slabs worked up and up to the shop for the cold weather. I got logs to mill and I gotta get at it first thing in the morning. Frost coming in tonight, but I gotta catch up to you.
WV remind me what is your method of joining the legs to the top?
OGH,
I did a better job drilling the mortises of using a scrap piece under the bench top so the spade bit did not get stuck as bad and it made a cleaner cut. I am looking for a good, relatively inexpensive 1.5" auger which I think will give an even cleaner cut. A Forstner bit is clean but I have trouble using one on an angled cut. i guess I could start with a spade bit then switch bits and finish with the Forstner. I still think the auger is a better answer. This has one coat of pure Tung oil, not Tung oil finish like you usually find in local hardware stores, and I usually at least touch it up with a little more. When using Tung oil finish product I applied multiple coats. The legs are personal preference. I experimented with bark on tops and limbs, some quarter round or with one face live edge. As long as it is over 1.5" I still think the weak point is the tenon itself anyway.
TT,
Take a trip down memory lane here back to reply #37 where I pretty much show the whole process. I've picked up a few more tricks such as using metal wedges (Ax/Sledge hammer wedges) and later even counter sinking the metal wedges and filling in with wood or wood putty made from sawdust and wood glue and sanding flush.
If that doesn't answer your questions by all means let me know and I'll be glad to provide more details.
What is the market value of the 36" one?
WV, I know exactly what you mean and what you need. They make a Forstner bit that has a hole through the center to take a pilot drill. It is held in with a set screw. I think @doc henderson (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) has some, maybe it was someone else. I don't have one, but it is on my list when I get back to benches. It has a long lead to get you started right.
Yes, I ALWAYS put a scrap (or workbench surface) under the hole to prevent breakout, makes for a clean hole.
When you try the auger, let me know how it works. I am looking for a used one somewhere in a yard sale box. ;D
Whatever you are doing, it sure looks good. Funny thing about these benches, they show a bit about what is going on in the mind of the builder more than a lot of the finer building projects, I think. It's a little like making music. A good pro musician will tell you that when improvising, there are no wrong notes, what matters is the next notes you follow with to make it right. You can look at ANY 'defect' in a bench or slab table like this and say 'yeah, I left that defect in because.....' and there are a thousand good reasons why, every time. ;D :D 8)
Danny,
I will probably ask $150 for the 36" one and maybe $125 for the 30" one and maybe offer to sell them for $250 for the pair as an incentive here next week at our annual street festival.
OGH,
I found a 1.5" Irwin auger that is about 7" long and ordered one off Amazon a few minutes ago. I will probably hold off on my locust benches until it gets here. I'll let you know how they cut. One nice trait about a spade bit is I have had some success sharpening them with a file. I would not know how to sharpen an auger.
Yes, all future cuts will have a scrap piece on the back side.
EDIT/Add-on: Defect? What Defect? That is character I overlooked and need to raise the price now that I see it. :D
Howard,
Very nicely done. They are a good buy at those prices.
Quote from: WDH on October 18, 2019, 08:42:42 PM
Howard,
Very nicely done. They are a good buy at those prices.
I know that prices on these things is very regional and even location based, but I think I would ask more, around here at least. I didn't see any defects, but yeah. they add value. :D
When I did that wedding bar, there were a lot of questions about how it was made, and the wood, etc. It made for some good talk over several dozen beers. :)
Here are the latest 3 benches I just finished. Two with curve should go as a pair while the other small one can be sold alone or with the other two. All are Black Locust. When I added a tung oil finish they shine up a yellow tint that reminds me of the pictures I see here of Oasage orage/Bodark/Bois d'arc. These should be very weather resistant.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1536.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1571951205)
The curved pair are 42" long and the small one I saved from my slab pile and cut it off to 28". It just barely fits across my bed rails on my mill and I have to use a shim piece on the side for clamping when I cut the legs to length. I made some custom putty with wood glue and the sawdust from sanding but I do not like the color match. I need to start experimenting with epoxy I guess.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1538.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1571951317)
This is my latest bench making tool that came in the mail from Amazon today. I have not tried it yet but have high hopes for cleaner mortise cuts and more perfect tenon fit-ups. BTW - that bench it is sitting on is barely 6.5" wide between the bark which proves you do not have to have a wide LE or edged slab to make a nice and very functional bench.
That bit will work pretty well. Use low speed. Brace yourself! Use the helper handle too. Definitely back up the exit with a block or cutoff - they can make nasty exit wound.
Looking good on the locust benches! Seems I remember you talking about a 5th leg on curved benches. These feel stable enough to avoid the use of the extra leg?
WV Sawmiller : I love the top bench on the top photo, nice grain
Quote from: btulloh on October 24, 2019, 05:22:05 PM
That bit will work pretty well. Use low speed. Brace yourself! Use the helper handle too. Definitely back up the exit with a block or cutoff - they can make nasty exit wound.
Its a lot heavier built than I was expecting. I will see how it cuts. I've been more diligent about using a piece of scrap backing wood and it has improved the quality of my cut and the fit of the tenons.
Thanks CW. It has some unique grain to it. I had only made one locust bench before these and it was beautiful wood. This tree fell and uprooted a maple and both fell together across my upper pasture fence so I cut and dragged both down and cut this curve out. I'm trying to leave the bottom 15-16 ft intact for use as a pole/upright on a future pole barn but if these benches sell that could change. Locust is about our most durable wood in this part of the country.
Sam, you are right. These are not far enough off center of balance to make me plan on adding a 5th leg like I had to do on my oak set which had some serious curve.
I looked at that same bit a couple days ago, I didn't pull the trigger yet so hopefully you give it good reviews. Nice benches btw. I hope I can get close to that.
@WV Sawmiller (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) , How did you make out at that street fair? Just curious?
It was a bust for me. I only took 6 benches down due to limited space and they got a good bit of use by people buying food at the Lion's Club food wagon in front of the store. When I went to load up the guy at the store asked me to leave 3 of them there in hopes he can sell them in the future so I did. Most of the customers came in and left on a special train and they could not take anything that large back with them.
Friday was totally uncoordinated with no vendors allowed to set up in the street and our town officials go an earful and hopefully next year will be much better.
Oh well, they are ready when next Spring rolls around and I will keep them on Craigslist and such. Thanks for asking.
My wife has been doing craft fairs as a business for 20 years now. (She is a quilter.) Your story is similar to ones I have heard from her many times. Picking shows is MORE than half the battle. Don't let it get you down. Craft shows are a crap shoot and my wife has spent SO much time picking the right shows for her stuff. There were a LOT of one-shot deals where she never went back because of the advertising, or the crowd, or whatever. Now that she is winding down, she has several good ones she has done for years and sticks with, but the others either cost too much, or don't draw enough. When/if I retire, I might do some of these shows with her, if I have my own stuff to sell. Now there is one show I help her with every year, I actually enjoy that one. I thought I would use that as a test show. I think that's my goal for the winter work.
My wife use to do craft fairs and sell at farmers market and any local place that had a gathering. She/we always made out quite well. Most times I would go with her. I made a special table that set up on those plastic saw horses.She had her jams/jelly,soap,things she made,like pot holders,aprons,placemats. We would have samples of her jams out there. Than she would have biscuits and small pies for sale too. You have to work the crowd,as anyone that does one should. We would notice vendors reading or on thier phones steady,just sitting there,making no effort to reach out to people just walking by. We would be on our feet making eye contact with people and telling them what we had,or to try. Sometimes we would have 3-4 couple crowded into our little space. ;D Than when it was all over,some vendors would come by and tell us that we had a hot spot. ::) You have to act like you want to help and answer questions. But I never said that.
I remember one craft fair we sold a ton of soap. Just by asking people to stop and smell our soap. She had alot of differant kinds. Even a bubble gum one.
But different than WV Sawmiller and Old Greenhorn wife. Ours most expensive product might of been $20 too and easy to take home too.
This was set up at a local hair studio with some photos and paintings and such. My wife got a photo club started several years ago and the club members set up here and the owner asked me to bring up a few benches. We set up on the sidewalk Friday and immediately did battle with the town officials who backed down pretty quickly. My wife and the rest did sell some of their photos. She worked the Lion's Club trailer the first day and made the cole slaw for the hot dogs all three days. She is a big time quilter too but mostly makes them for family and friends and occasionally she has been commissioned to make a baby quilt or two. She had made a baby blanket for a friend of our daughter who took it back with her Sunday. She also makes a special theme quilt every year for Camp Care held at Lake Lure NC every summer where our daughter volunteers. It is camp for kids with or who had cancer and their siblings. Every year is a different theme (Star Wars, Super Heroes, Peter Pan, Wizard of Oz, etc are some she has made quilts for). The kids and staff sign it and it is raffled off at their Christmas Party as the grand prize.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/2018_Camp_Care_Quilt.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572439686)
This the 2018 Camp Care Quilt
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_20181029_152804_28129.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572439809)
This is our oldest GD Christmas Quilt (Butterflies) for this year - please don't tell her yet. The younger sister gets one with kittens and the middle GD gets one with unicorns. (Yes - that is a 14' long python hide hanging on the wall behind the quilt frame.)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/Josie2C_Abbie2C_Molly2C_Quinn___Lyric_10-27-19.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572440028)
We did get this picture of all 5 grandkids together at the Railroad Days event Saturday so it was still a real good day.
@WV Sawmiller (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) Wanted to post and tell you I really like your benches! When I was cutting one of the pear logs and ended up with a large flitch I immediately thought of your benches and set it aside to dry in the hopes I can make one to go around our little fire pit. Not sure how well it's suited to such a build but will be fun to try.
I hope you're able to sell a bunch, they are nice and the pride you take in your craftsmanship shows in the final results :)
Keep up the nice work and posts!
Brandon
Brandon,
Thanks. They are fun to make. I keep hoping the right customer will come along and buy them all and contract for me to make them full time.
Good luck on the Pear. I have not sawed any such fruitwood (Except lots of cherry). Remember you can make a real nice bench from a 6" wide X 2" thick X 2' wide slab if you find the right piece. And if it is less than 2" you can shim it up with a half inch thick piece of plywood or 2/4 board. I find I need at least 2" thickness to hold the tenon tight.
WV, I'll keep my fingers crossed you can find that customer!
I'm not sure how well the pear will hold up but I figure it was going to be stickers or firewood otherwise so why not try it. I appreciate all the information you so freely have shared.
We all need a hobby that helps fund itself 8) 8)
Brandon
Try some of the craft woodworker groups with the pear. They like it for intarsia. It has a flesh color to it. It also spalts beautifully.
I got out in the mud and made three maple benches today from an 8' LE slab. Made one 36" & 2- 33" each benches. Had some nice spalting in the slab. I used the 1-1/2" auger shown in reply 72 above and i was real well pleased with it. I did get a chunk stuck in it at one point where it would not cut. Removed that and it worked fine. Seems to make a much tighter/more accurate 1-1/2" mortise than the spade bits I had been using. I have a Forstner bit but it does not work well making angled cuts like I use for my bench legs. Weather permitting I will take these to our local flea market which is scheduled to open Sunday. I think my DIL sister and maybe a couple of my granddaughters will be there and I will put the 12 y/o to work. She will watch my load while I shop as long as I get her a donut or other local goody.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1975.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1590191508)
33", 33" & 36"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1976.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1590191565)
Nice spalting especially in the narrowest bench.
The two smaller benches fit through the planer but the longest one was too wide and I sanded it with 80 grit belt sander. I planed all the legs and put a light coat of tung oil on all surfaces showing.
Now to see if the will sell. I have 6-8 more slabs like this one or about 25-30 more 30-36 in benches.
Great minds think alike, and I guess we do too :D. I cut up another slab pile today and added these to the pile that is air drying. The cutoffs are firewood. I don't think I will get to making benches for a few weeks at least, but when I do, I want to make a bunch at once, like you do.
Nice appearance on those you have there!
Edit to add the photographic evidence:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20200522_151546871_HDR.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1590197047)
@Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103)
Are those first cut slabs you are planning on using to make benches? I have made some with rounded slabs but nearly all mine now are just 8/4 LE slabs sawed both sides. I used to make the benches 4" thick but found they were too heavy and 8/4 is plenty strong. You can also make a very nice bench from a 6" wide slab too. The advantage of the narrower slabs is you can run them through a planer and weight is reduced.
Tomorrow I will likely try to make a few more bluebird boxes and might saw up a stock hickory log into tomato stakes as I see my stockpile is getting low. I might even make another raised planter box to take along as a sample to the flea market.
A funny thing today a local bait shop selling plants called me to order some more tomato stakes. I delivered them and he said he said he needed a small bench for people to sit on to try on footwear. The funny part is last year I tried to leave some benches there on consignment. I'll stop by there on the way back from the flea market and show him several samples and repeat the offer. Benches like I made today are perfect for mud rooms and porches for people to put their boots on and off.
Yeah, we never talked about it, but I did notice you make yours from flat slabs and I surely see that advantages of that. I make mine from the log first cuts with the round side. If I too enough off to make that 8/4 I would be losing a lot of the log for 'real lumber' so I just select the slabs that are thick enough for a bench, and the rest is firewood. It take a lot more work to finish the rounded side, but with the ask, it leaves all the bug tracks, which I think looks cool. I look at it as a way to use (and hopefully sell) stuff that would have been firewood. I should do a few like yours and see which sell better. Figuring out what folks want is tough. I also like to put urethane on mine, it lets the rain just slide on off. I am thinking it adds to the life of the bench, but it also adds time. I am log poor right now, so I'm trying to squeeze the most out I can.
I will also occasionally salvage a nice looking slab from the waste pile and make a bench from it. I have ruined some by not having enough thickness to hold the leg tight. IMHO you need at least 2" to hold the tenon tight. On a too thin flat board or slab I can easily add a thin board as a shim to add extra depth to the mortise and the shim does not normally show. I'm thinking that would be hard to do and detract from the appearance in a rounded slab. I guess I could do several thin layers and laminate them but does not sound like it would be worth the effort unless it was a truly spectacular piece of wood.
WV,
Is the use of granddaughter to work for your for doughnuts a child labor violation? :D Sounds like a fun activity and makings of a good day.
Old Greenhorn,
Are you putting rounded side up where the bug trails show?
Sam,
What's a child labor law? ;) My father sure never heard of one when he had me helping him put up monuments when I was 6 years old. This is the granddaughter who will get up from the breakfast table and get in the truck to go fishing with me and open up the cooler to get into the snacks her grandma packed before I pull out of the drive. :D
I could put her on a commission plan but she'd likely sell my $200 walnut bench for $50 so she could earn enough to buy her donut. Besides the weather is calling for about 60% chance of scattered thunderstorms and I likely won't go this week anyway.
On OGH round top benches that sounds uncomfortable to me. Would be like sitting on a log in the woods all day and my contours don't work well that way. :D
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on May 23, 2020, 10:35:55 AM
On OGH round top benches that sounds uncomfortable to me. Would be like sitting on a log in the woods all day and my contours don't work well that way. :D
Just sit side saddle or straddle... or bigger log!
I am sure it will be a fun day with the grand daughter.
Hah, I am out in the shop between coats and just checked in to find this! You guys kill me😆
No, the round side goes down. I will try to grab a pic, but from my phone it might be tough.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF2788.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1562299235)
Well I guess that worked! Yeah, round down. It's just like toes go in first. (TGIF)😂
Well this set has a new owner as of today. A lady had told me to hold them for her several months ago and today her son was over with his truck and was able to pick them up. They should be sitting around a firepit by sunset today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0333~8.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1590435639)
I took a curved white oak LE slab I have had air drying a couple years, trimmed off a foot or so due to a split, took a wire brush and finally a draw knife and trimmed off the punky sapwood, cut it into a 28" and a 30" section, ran these through my planer, bored holes for the legs with my 1-1/2" auger (Have I mentioned how much I really like this auger bit. Oh yeah, I guess I did mention it in passing. :D)
I did not have any WO legs stock handy but I cut some 6' long RO into 2.5" square leg stock a few weeks ago so I grabbed and cut 3 of them into 2' bench legs. I recently bought a replacement table saw from HF and decided to try something with it. First I tilted the blade put the rip fence next to the blade and grabbed a piece of scrap stock. What I learned was how easy it will be in the future to make octagon legs. `With the angled blade and rip fence basically you just make 4 passes and knock the corners off. I did not do it today but I see some octagon legs on future benches.
What I learned, and I am sure you won't get an "A" for safety from your HS shop teacher, was a very quick and easy way to cut the corners off the ends of the leg stock in preparation for cutting the tenons on them. I just pushed the end free hand into the blade notching off about 4-5 inches at a time, rotated, and repeated until I had a rough octagon or circle reducing the amount of wood left to remove with the tenon cutter. If you do this be very careful and safety glasses would be a very good idea as the saw wants to jam and throw the cut off pieces back at you. I then put these leg pieces in the vice, grabbed my drill and Lumberjack tenon cutter and cut the tenons. I had removed and resharpened my tenon cutter blades and had to adjust the blades first just to get them to cut. Then I think I may have moved them too far and the tenons seem loose in the mortise. I'll adjust again the next time I use it.
I glued and installed the legs, cut off the excess then installed a metal wedge in each tenon to tighten each in the mortise. After our family cookout I took the benches to the mill and cut them all to length. When I put the benches on the mill I set the forward advance to just slowly ease through the wood so as not to put too much tension on the cut. That worked fine. The 28" bench just barely fits across my rails. If they were much shorter I'd have to lay a longer board underneath and remember to adjust my cut height accordingly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1996.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1590715797)
After this picture I sanded with my belt sander and 80 grit belts especially around the tenons to remove the scratches I made cutting off the excess and to make sure it is perfectly flush with the bench top. Then I wiped the top and legs with tung oil and left the benches to sit overnight.
I confess - finishing my wood is my weak point. I need lots more practice and to spend some time with an expert to learn how to smooth the wood and apply urethane and other finishes better than what I do now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1997.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1590716052)<br This is the piece of scrap leg stock made into an octagon. I see this style on a future bench and not too far off. The lighter color is the fresh cut surface.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2003.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591204032)
I started these yesterday in response to an order I got at the flea market Sunday. They are actually side tables 24" long and 20" tall instead of my normal 17" for benches. I got interrupted to go get hay which trumps all other work because of the time sensitivity. I finished my part this morning and will take them to my contact at the flea market Sunday to have him do Lichtenberg engraving on them. I started with about a 6' RO slab so went ahead and did the 3rd one while I was at it. They are sanded but no finish because the tung oil can interfere with the Lichtenberg electrical currents.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2004.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591204388)
The big difference here is these are octagon legs and first time I have tried that. That may be my new normal. A collateral benefit is they fit easier in the tenon cutter without having to use a draw knife to remove the corners and trim to fit better. These were fresh cut RO legs and pretty soft and cut each tenon quickly and easily.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2002.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591204618)
They were easy to make. I cut the legs to 9/4 square stock which may be my new normal legs blanks as seems strong, works well and I like the look. I just angled the blade on my new HF table saw to 45 degrees, moved to rip fence over so I took about 1/3 of the width with each pass, laid the legs against the fence and took off one corner, rotated and repeated 3 more times till I had removed all the corners leaving a nice octagon shaped leg.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2000.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591204843)
I then put them in my vise and cut the tenons on each.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2001.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591204925)
I collected the notched off corners and cut them into 6" lengths for kindling for my spoiled wife and put them in an old feed sack till next winter. I also saved the shavings and curleques from the tenon cutting and even the chips from the mortise making from my 1-1/2" auger bit (Did I mention I am really liking this 1-1/2" auger bit - Hint, hint. :D) for firestarter.
Once installed and excess length cut off with my Japanese pull saw I took them to the mill, put them on a wide 1" board, put a scrap 2X6 against the side supports, clamped and set the blade for 21" and cut off the excess for a 20" finished height. I had to use the 1" board underneath because my bed rails are about 26" apart at the movable clamp and these were too short to fit across them.
When I finished that I cut a couple of 2" cookies off a poplar cutoff to see about making a 3 legged stool which may be my next project.
I like those octagon legs. May steal that in the future..... :)
If you make any money off the idea feel free to send me some of it. :D (If I
had to pay for every idea I stole/borrowed off this forum I'd be a broke man!)
I found out how to make them by mistake trying to just trim the end then when I saw how easy it was I was sold. Looks good and very easy to do and makes them fit the tenon cutter much better. Its almost like cutting round stock and just slips right in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/image~282.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1490134152)
I first started making the octagons when I had to make about 150 bench legs in order to reduce the time to turn them round on a lathe. I liked the way the octagon legs looked better than the round ones. As a bonus, it saved 20 minutes per bench without having to turn the legs. The octagon legs stack better than the round ones. When making several benches, we usually stack the legs in tiers of four in order to easily count them and know when we have enough (after pushing 40-50 legs through the saw, four times each with a less than sharp blade my hands start to cramp). When making legs, a few extra is never a bad idea though.
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Rather than cutting off the split ends of the bench slabs, I sometimes add a dutchman to keep it them from further splitting. Some folks like them and some don't but they are easily cut out on a band saw and do not take too long to recess and sand flat.
Howard, I hope that your hand is on the mend. Also, I have never intentionally made through tenons on the benches but I like the look and may do so in the future. We have four or five that we need to sell prior to making more.
@caveman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12883) ,
What is the size you are cutting your leg blanks before cutting the corners off? I've experimented with several and like the 9/4 to 10/4
How do you cut the bow tie in the surface of the bench and how deep do you make them? That is a nice feature. Right now I sometimes cut several inches off a bench to remove a split and even though it does not show there is still a weak point. Using your technique on the bottom would prevent future splits. I even tried having a local blacksmith put a hammered wrought iron band around the bench to help with splits.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/Metal_band_2~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591546742)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/Metal_band~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1591546775)
I was okay with the look but it cost me $40 per bench which I consider cost prohibitive and I sold the prototype last week. I'm interest in the bow ties if not beyond my limited skill level.
How thick are your benches? When I buried the tenon in the top I used a 4" top. Now I use the through method with 8/4 LE slabs. My Lumberjack tenon cutter leaves a 3" tenon/peg so I cut off just under an inch off the top. I feel I need 2" of tenon contact in the mortise.
Try the 1-1/2" auger! I bet you will like it.
We used to cut our slabs at 2" but the last year or so we saw them at 2 3/8". The most recent legs started out as 3x3's. I have cut them out of 2 1/2 x 2 1/2's. We have been cutting 2" tenons and boring the holes as deep as possible without going through. I have been using a forstner bit (start off relatively straight and as soon as it starts cutting lean it out at about 7° towards the near end and near side). I'll clamp the legs in a vise and peel them down a bit to make tenon cutting easier on the tool and me. We have been gluing the legs in with titebond 3 and putting a couple of 3" screws a a low angle in each leg.
The dutchman is recessed about 3/4" into the seat. I trace it out with a pencil and chisel inside the line. I use a router to hog out the waste and then do the final cuts with the chisel. A little bevel on the downward face of the dutchman helps it drive in easier. If your fit is not exact, a little sanding dust and glue will fill the small gaps. That dark dutchman in the bench pictured is ipe (Brazilian Walnut) - talk about some hard wood. I made some legs out of it one time and bent a draw knife on them.
I built some a few years ago out of wood that was not dry for my daughter's wedding and used Gorilla polyurethane glue but after they dried the legs loosened and had to be re-glued with shims (she did not let me know she wanted benches until a month or so before the wedding).
Thanks. I remember the wedding benches.
I tried the screws in the legs and was not satisfied with the results. I have used the sanding dust and wood glue for fill with decent results. I much prefer the auger to the Forstner bit but I am doing through and through legs so I understand your process and rationale.
I have but have not become proficient with my router so I guess that is one more thing I need to learn to do. I wonder if I could get a wood cutter like a cookie cutter to hammer in and cut the perimeter of the bow tie then cut out the center. You are using a chisel and router for this. I may look into local metal workers who can make me such a bow tie cutter form. Thought provoking! Thanks again.
They make router templates and fixtures for doing bow ties. All in all though I find caveman's method to be quick and easy. Like a lot of things, it gets better with a little practice. And good, sharp tools.
I never knew there was so much to make a bench.
Howard, if you have a plunge router the bowtie/dutchman thing is easy. I take a piece of paper and fold it twice and cut out a shape that when unfolded makes the desired shape of the dutchman. The plunge router allows you to take several relatively shallow cuts removing material. On the final cut I sneak up close to the outlines and finish up the corners with the chisel. My router is a Bosch and most of the jigs I've found are set up for the Porter Cable. I have not used the pattern cutting jigs but they should make this process super fast and accurate.
Quote from: thecfarm on June 07, 2020, 09:09:59 PM
I never knew there was so much to make a bench.
I guess it depends on the style and appearance you prefer. I guess I could take a 1X12 or 2X12 for a top and cut 2 - 15-16 inch 1X12s for legs and connect with a 1X4 skirt on each side and maybe a couple of 45 degree angles on the underside to brace them (and I may try that style too one of these days).
These are actually tables - I cut them to 20" height. If my customer who ordered them changes his mind I can put them back on the mill and cut them to 17" if I want them bench height. A customer at a flea market 2-3 weeks ago and wanted me to cut a furnished LE RO 4' slab with Lichtenburg engraving in half and I was going to do so but decided it would be easier to just make 2 more and get my contact to engrave/shock it. I started with a 6' RO slab and cut 2- 24" tops. Since I had a 23" piece left over I decided to just make a third out of it. I made the tops with first octagon legs I have tried then messed up my hand the next day. I dropped these off a week ago and picked them up yesterday and called the customer and hope to drop them off at the flea market next week if weather permits.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2019.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1592155147)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2017.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1592155150)
These are the finished tables - no tung oil used per client request.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/Lichtenberg_red_oak~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1592155259)
These are the original slabs the customer first wanted me to use. I feared if I cut, drilled and sanded the legs I'd mess up the engraving.
I sawed some 4' "logs" for a customer a week or so back then had a breakdown with 2 "logs" left (Broken alternator belt). I fixed my mill and sawed the other 2 by myself. The customer had pointed out one split "log" and said to see if I could get a couple of benches out of it so I was able to squeeze out 2- 8/4 LE RO slabs. I also sawed several 9/4 X 9/4 strips for legs. I showed him my benches I make and when I called him to let him know his order was ready and I asked him if he wanted to make his own benches or wanted me to make them and he said go ahead and make them. I met a young man going to a nearby Bible College from Medicine Bow Wyoming. He saw my door sign on my truck and his family have a woodworking business and we got to talking. He was going to visit yesterday so I figured he and I would make them with him but we we had a local power outage affecting my work area so we had a nice visit but could not make the benches as planned. Today I started on them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2246.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604880219)
These are the raw slabs. I guess the widest is about 16" between the bark. They are pretty green and I suspect the bark will fall off when they dry more but we will see. I took some of my RO 9/4 square stock that has been drying a while and used it instead of the customers hoping it will not shrink as much and hopefully the tops drying will just tighten the mortise on the tenon on the legs. I cut the legs to length, ran them through the table saw and knocked the edges off (I am still scared when using that saw after my accident last June and probably always will be).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2247~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604880380)
I bored the tenons with my 1.5" auger shown in the picture. (Have I mentioned how much I love my auger for this kind of work!) I glued and drove the legs through from the bottom as shown.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2249~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604880436)
Here is the top with about an inch of excess tenon to be cut off with my Japanese pull saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2250~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604880505)
Excess removed and ready to cut to to length on the mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2251.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604880225)
Benches cut to length. I started belt sanding the first bench in the picture and will do some more sanding on it and will sand some more on the other bench. I will not apply tung oil until I talk to the customer. I will show him the Lictenburg engraving as shown in earlier posts here. If the customer wants them engraved I'll set it up or give him the contact info. They will burn better without the tung oil and with the current moisture content now would be the ideal time to burn them if desired.
Seems like you would have issues like warp, cup, and splitting using green, undried oak slabs.
Danny,
That is a very distinct possibility but if it cups It may just fit the contours of the sitter that much better. :D
I had planned to tell the customer if it does cup and pulls the legs out of line so it tends to rock from leg to leg to bring it back in a year or so and I will re-cut the legs maybe half an inch shorter to make them perfectly square to the deck if needed.
A couple of years back I made a prototype with a wrought iron band on each end to correct splitting issues/reinforce the wood. I had blacksmith I met do that and I showed them at various flea markets and such but it did not seem to appeal to most folks and the cost of the blacksmithing made them pretty expensive and was hard to recoup the extra cost. I sold my prototype at the end of last season.
You have to try different things to see what works and what doesn't. What was the old saying "Throw enough "stuff" on the wall and see what sticks." Of course I worked some overseas assignments where the boss would throw us into new and untested waters. One boss actually said "Kick him off the dock and see if he floats". Those that could not handle the assignment were reassigned or replaced as needed. One guy in Iraq could not go on R&R (Thailand bound) until they had a replacement for him so he checked the inbound list, saw my name and told them to assign me. He handed me his cell phone and said "Answer it if it rings" and that was my turnover briefing. It was a fouled up mess and I worked several100 hour weeks till I got things organized and turned around. The reward was like the old Charlie Brown cartoon that said "Working here is like wetting your pants with dark trousers on. It gives you a warm feeling but nobody notices."
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2253~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604957089)
There were some comments or questions about leg spacing so I took this picture of the benches I made yesterday. They are slightly angled but in this case do not extend past the edge of benches. This is also a decent shot of my octagon shaped legs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2254~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1604957090)
I finished belt sanding the benches today using 80 grit sandpaper/belts. Finishing is my weak area. I envy you guys with the skill to do this fancy epoxy work and such. This wood is a light pink. I am amazed at the range of colors I see in red oak. Some is as dark or darker than wild cherry and other has very little tint to it. If the customer wants I will wipe these with tung oil before he leaves. Sometimes that brings out the color. It is amazing how much color change/enhancement it gives with walnut or cherry. As mentioned these are pretty green slabs and I don't know how much tung oil they would absorb anyway. I think I will suggest to the customer he stack these one on top of the other with weight on the top bench and stickers in between just like as if they were just normal boards.
One thing I've done on a couple of thicker slabs is drill through near the ends at mid thickness from bark to bark, countersink big enough for a washer and drive threaded rod through, then washer and nut each end. I tightened the nuts periodically till they dried. I've meant to go back and plug the countersinks with a wood plug but haven't yet.
Don,
I had that thought on a 4" thick hickory mantel I had one time. It was about 16" between the bark and badly split on both ends. I tried boring through it with a long auger and twisted the auger in two about 8-9 inches into my attempt. I cut that end off. I thought about scrapping it but eventually sold it to a neighbor to make a river table type project with it. I still think a decorative black wrought iron bolt with matching washers and nuts would have a classic look.
I learned from boring electric holes in log cabins to pull up and clear chips very often or you could be "screwed" :D. A lead carpenter showed me a trick one time that was pretty neat. We needed to make a level bore over to a box with a long bit and I asked him how to be sure the bit was level. He hung a keychain on the smooth part near the chuck and said "watch that while you drill, it'll drift whichever way is down".
I would not put tung oil on the benches until they were at least air dried.
WV Sawmiller
I have been following your bench building journey and I have a few questions.There is 3 different grades of the lumberjack cutters ,homeowner ,commercial and pro model which ones will give the most service .Also I was not able to find the Irwin 1 1/2 short ship auger on amazon but I am not very good with searching I guess.I have some curved cherry and apple that i Milled almost 2. Years ago that I would like to make the 5 legged benches like you did .
Thank you
Zeke
@A-z farmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42480) ,
I looked back through my files and see my tenon cutter was listed as a Commercial grade, beginner's kit. It cost about $130 in April 2016. It came with a Forstner bit (That I almost never use) and a book on log furniture plans (that I have never used). The blades can be removed and sharpened and adjusted a little to determine the diameter of the tenon. I checked on Amazon and saw my Auger but they listed as not in stock and said they did not know if or when they may get them. They did list it was made in China and the current trade issues may be affecting them. I suspect there are some out there available as I doubt it is a very commonly used item. I guess I better take better care of mine knowing they are in short supply. :D Good luck finding one soon.
Thank you WV sawmiller
I did find a Morse short ships auger so I will order that one along with the tenon cutters too.
I have made some benches over the last few years and I used legrite legs but I wanted to make all wood 5 legged benches .
Zeke
Quote from: A-z farmer on November 10, 2020, 06:17:19 PMAlso I was not able to find the Irwin 1 1/2 short ship auger on amazon but I am not very good with searching I guess.
I've found the search tool on Amazon is probably the worst one ever devised! They bubble up paid ads that are not relevant and also a ton of stuff that is not even remotely related to what you are looking for I've had MUCH better results by using Google to search for exactly what you want and you will see some Amazon results in the list.
Yes, if you have a really serious curve add the 5th leg on the back side at the middle of the curve to keep it from tipping.
I have never made a bench over 6' long but there is no reason I could not make a 22' bench as long, if I had a slab that long, as long as the legs fit within the 21' marks on my mill. I could add extra pairs of legs every 4-5 ft as needed to hold up the expected weight on the bench. I'd still just need to make one pass at 17" height to cut them all the same height and same angle.
Actually, I guess you could even go much longer and the only limit would be the length of the board/slab you start with as you could lay the bench face down/legs up on the mill and cut the first 21', move the head of the mill to the back, unclamp and slide the bench back, reclamp and cut again. The bench would remain parallel to the bed of the mill and the height and angle would be the same on all the legs. Again, just install pairs of legs every 4-5 ft as needed. You'd have to add support on one or both ends such as sawhorses, so you did not bow the bench up in the middle and mess up your height. If I ever get a 50' 8/4 Live Edge plank and am bored enough I may try this. :D
I just wandered down Memory Lane and re-read this thread from start to finish. One old challenge I may re-address now is using wooden wedges in the tenon. My main challenge is I don't like the idea of having to pre-split the tenons as this adds another step to the process. I guess the right tool to do that would be a small band saw. The closest I have is a jig saw. I may try putting the fence on my table saw and raise the blade about 2" and try cutting a slot in the middle of my tenon. I will try that with some scrap stock or damaged legs first to see what it looks like. I always cut off about an inch of excess after I drive the leg through from the bottom side of the bench. I'd rather have a thinner kerf than my table saw but that is what I have available. The metal sledgehammer wedges work very well but I'd rather have the wood look.
Another thing I need to revisit is a 3 legged stool.
Do the rest of you use wedges in your tenon ends? I may need to try the small amounts of epoxy to fill any gaps too.
Yeah, I am still playing with benches too, trying different stuff each time, I too would like to do a 3 legged stool, can't decide on the height though. I don't use wedges in any of them, I just sand the tenon for a snug fit and glue it. If I find a few small voids on the top after cleaning I either fill with glue or some epoxy if I am pouring something else. I also want to try some blind legs and that will require wedges. I am putting that off.
As for your slotting issue, how about using a back saw (as in for a miter box)? Or perhaps a hacksaw with the right blade? Just spit-balling here. I would try to back saw first, nice and stiff and easy to control for a straight slot. Also not too wide.
Your benches are nicer than mine, but I ma hacking along.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/IMG_20201103_172528354.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1604495713)
WV sawmiller
You could make a holding jig and cut the tenons on your sawmill.
I have only used wedges on blind mortices/tenons. some math to do, but for a loose fit, I split the end of the tenon with a band saw, make a wooden wedge, and start it in the slot. apply glue. as I place and drive the leg into the tenon, the bottom of the mortice (top of the bench) drives the wedge into the slot. I do not go through the top with the mortice, so the weather and moisture does not seep into the joint. a difference that Howard and I have discussed. I have only done this a few times when needed, as it is kind of an all or nothing deal. hard to remove if the wedge was over or under done. flares out the end. wedges should always be oriented perpendicular to the grain, so you do not split the seat, like ol Abe Lincoln. the length and angle of the wedge needs to be "guessed" based on how snug or loose the fit is. I always glue my legs. the slot and the wedge need to be close to the same length so the wedge does not bottom out in the slot and prevent the tenon from seating in the hole. Hope this makes sense, as I think I know what I mean! :D
I have 2 55 gallon poly barrels full of leg stock. several sizes 1,5 to 2.5 inches and dry to 7%. I often make the seats out of a pile outside, so close to 12 or more if fresh. so as the seat dries and shrinks it serves to tighten the hold on the legs. I do the height of the bench based on who it is for. children vs adults. for a three legged bench, I splay the legs front and back, and side to side. I orient the 2 legs to the back if there is one. people always like to rock backwards for some reason. :o 8) :)
Our scout master once teased me about a 3 legged bench, saying I was going to fall over, but of course it is more stable on an uneven surface. He got a 6 legged bench as a gift when he stepped down. It worked well, as the 12 points of the scout law was placed, 2 on each leg.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/E4F40EA3-3209-4EDB-AED4-D2F590CDAECD.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1546636511)
3 legged benches for one of my docs 3 kids, 12 inches high.
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a 10 inch tall 3 legged bench, next to grown up benches at 16 inches tall. blue stained pine, ERC, and Mulberry.
Howard, a hand saw would probably do what you need to do without too much exertion. If the legs are dry they stay secure a lot better. I was rushed when we built all of the benches for my daughter's wedding and the slabs and the legs were not dry. They loosened as they dried. The ones we build now are kiln dried and the legs do not wobble over time.
found the 6 legged bench. not easy to find a floor flat enough, so I added insets with threaded feet to adjust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/156F269F-DF05-4536-9E21-C7E6C355B464.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605230622)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/26CADFD8-626D-4E94-813C-0FAC4CA60A8F.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605230622)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/B36B48FF-6C9E-4B9B-B099-FCFB23E2964F.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605230618)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/AEB7EF03-F609-47D3-AE9C-4DE0173BBE43.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605230620)
this was before my laser and part of the motivation. all hand wood burned, including the navy pilot insignia on the end that is hard to see in the photo.
Well, I have fat fingered this @*%g&) reply into cyber space twice now so I will try one more time. Thanks for your replies, comments and suggestions.
A-z,
I don't know about a holding jig but I think it would be hard to get an accurate enough cut and the kerf on the sawmill would be wider than I prefer. It would be at least as wide as the table saw.
Cavey,
After my table saw accident in June I would be scared to cut slots with a hand saw and I think the kerf would be wider than I want.
How did you tighten the legs back up? Epoxy? If the tenon passes all the way through the mortise a steel sledgehammer wedge would be a quick and easy fix.
OGH,
I disagree - your benches look much better than mine especially with that high class finishes. I drooled when I saw that last picture you posted.
I think the back or miter saw would be too wide a kerf. I think a hack saw, coping saw or jig saw or, ideally, a band saw would be the best kerf. I don't have the band or coping saw and feel the hack saw or jig saw are too much effort for the expected results.
I think if I set my table saw about 2" blade height with the fence set 3/4" from the blade center would work well on my 1.5" diameter tenon. I am thinking I can stand the leg upright with the tip of the tenon on the table top and make one pass against the fence. The 2" depth would leave me an inch of excess height to cut off the top of the bench and still leave an inch for a wedge.
On stool height there are plenty of options. Make them 12" and call them a milking stool. Cut at 17" and regular stool. Make them 24-28 and call them a bar stool. I think on the taller height you'd need to connect/brace the legs. You could make mortise and tenon parallel to the floor. You could use sissal or jute rope for function and decoration. If you have a Goth customer you can use barb wire. :D
Doc,
This may be where we part ways and you will hate me forever more. :(
The wood and finishes are top notch but the 6 legs on a bench that short just don't look right to me. I'd think I'd want at least an 8' bench before I put in the extra pair of legs. Same with the 3 legged stool - my mind says 3 legged stools have to be round or triangle and not square or rectangle. I know they are stable and am sure they work well but... (Sorry about that - that plus my overwhelming modesty and humility are probably my only character flaws.) I wonder how they would work with 2 legs on one end and one centered on the other end would look instead of with a leg in the middle?
I used to make thick benches and buried the tenons inside the wood but I felt they were too heavy and settled on 2" as strong enough, light enough and with enough depth on the mortise to hold the tenon adequately.
Please forgive me if I hurt your feelings. Keep up the good work and great suggestions. ;)
When I cut slots in hammers,hatchets an axes I use a hacksaw. It's worked good for me.
Howard, no feelings in danger here. I love the look of your benches. I mentioned not having end grain on the top side getting weather as one reason to have blind tenons. but also, I do not want to deal with the tear out. I have done a few, and I am sure I can perfect it if needed, but typically do not bore all the way through. the 6 legged bench..., I agree and will hopefully never make another. It was a gift for our outgoing scoutmaster, Mr. Fee, who is a jet blue pilot now, and served as a navy pilot. You were in the military, and the scouts mimics that somewhat for the boys and leaders involved. If you recall, Mr. Fee had teased me about my very stable highly valuable three legged bench. In the spirit of good natured fun, and to get all 12 points of the law on a leg, He got a 6 legged bench. 8) :). At the celebration i told the story about the campout and the 3 legged bench. the bench was covered. My son used traffic flashlights to direct Mr. Fee's son to the bench (wearing shades and his dad's bomber jacker from the navy) that also had LED runways lights temporarily attached. He sat on the bench as a safety test, using all the perceived military and aviation protocols that we could make up. At his thank you celebration we all had a good laugh, and that bench still sits proudly on his back porch (enclosed).
to cut the slots in an upright leg on a table saw. you can get a thin kerf blade. and I would rig something to your miter gage or make a stand up jig so the leg has support near the blade. there are all kinds of places you do not want the saw to stick that leg. :o :( :) ;) :D
again no hard feelings, just joining the "leg number" conversation. much of this is aesthetics, and as we know, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. God Bless.
No hurt feelings here either for sure. I think we all look at each other's work and think "Wow, I wish I could do it like that" or "Geez, maybe I could try that, it looks a lot nicer" or "Hey, that's a neat idea, I wonder if I could do that?". It's how we learn. (Watch the progress on the one I am just starting, I really can't believe I am even trying this, but ....peer pressure. ;D)
On your saw issue, the table saw without a jig the tenon would sit in scares the heck out of me. There are a LOT of different hacksaw blade available to make a thin slot. In fact, I used to buy special screw slotting blades to cut screw driver slots when I made special one-off screws. They have no kerf and cut the exact width of the blade material. My first grab would be the hacksaw for a quick slot of any depth, but it can be tricky to keep it straight. Then I would go to the backsaw for control, but I would have to check the kerf width. When I do ax handles I grab whatever hacksaw is handy and actually find the slot is a little too thin when I drive the handle in. What slot width are you looking for?
Someday I will pop out a 3 legged bench, but unlike Doc's I think it will have two legs on one end and one on the other with, hopefully, some sort of slab that simulates a triangular shape of some sort. It's art, not science.
or lay the leg flat on the saw, and cut from two sides and finish the center with a hand saw. the kerf really does not matter, you just make a wedge to fit the kerf. Ok @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) "now my feeling are hurt" fiddle-smiley smiley_cry ... "not" cheers! :) smiley_beertoast bon_fire
good luck finding people with a triangular or round butt! :D :D :D
I'm not sure what you've got against thicker wedges WV, but we do what we like. People do like the look of wedges - kinda like exposed dovetails.
Wedge size and kerf size need to match, but not a big deal, except with blind wedges like Doc's talking about.
I cut kerfs for wedges on the table saw, the band saw (free hand) with a back saw, or just about anything that suits me at the moment. Not rocket science.
On some pieces that are highly finished, I've cut double kerfs and tapered the mortises. That can take some time and planning, but . . .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39962/Bench_-_Paul_Watson_-_03.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1558741029)
Triple tenons on this bench with double wedges and tapered mortises. Not necessary, just a look I wanted. Wedges are hard maple for contrast.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39962/Bench_-_Paul_Watson_-_06.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1558740370)
The bottom feet are done with wide double tenons and the wedges are located close to the outsides of the wide tenons, otherwise they couldn't spread the tenon. Not even necessary, just the way I wanted it at the time.
The good thing about doing this stuff is we get the chance to do it however we want. Hopefully that translates into how a potential customer wants it if your selling it.
Keep up the good work, and cut your kerfs however you desire. That may change over time.
@btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) that is first class work. @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) very excited to see your top secret joint venture. lots of great ideas..
Boy that is some fancy mortise and tenon work. All I have ever used is my Lumberjack round tenon cutter and bored a matching mortise with a spade bit now my auger.
Sawing a slot with a hacksaw or handsaw or such is not hard but if you are doing a bunch it just takes a while. Steel wedges are so easy to install I have avoided the issue. I just wish they made them with a matching woodgrain pattern.
OGH,
I am not sure about a jig to hold the tenon on the table saw. I was thinking the length of the leg and the fence would be adequate but my track record and credibility with tablesaws is not the best in the world - a fact I am reminded of almost daily when I bump my left hand on something.
Doc,
Are you talking about breakout concerns on the bench top when you drive the leg through from the bottom or when you bore the mortise from the top and break-out occurring on the bottom? I have found the break-out on the bottom is pretty much non-existent when I remember to put a piece of scrap stock underneath and bore into it. Of course since it is on the bottom I don't worry much about the look since it is out of sight anyway. I have not tried it but I would bet if we made a mortise hole in a piece of stock, metal might be better, and line it up directly over the top side of the mortise and clamp it securely before driving the leg through that should about eliminate top-side break out. That might be something you can try.
As to the round and triangular rumps - you have caused me to have a flashback to a big fat lady in a pair of tight silver sweatpants I saw going into a restaurant near Steubenville Ohio while I was working a project up there. We all commented that she looked like she was wearing 2 bags full of cats. It was not a pretty sight and I may wake up screaming tonight thinking about it. It has taken me 23 years to forget it now you brought it back. Thanks a lot!
Here's all you need for sawing the kerfs on the tablesaw. Two pieces of 1x6 scrap. Fasten the stop to the runner with a couple screws (be sure to put them high enough to be above the saw blade when you saw through the stop. You can hold the leg by hand and run it safely through, or use a clamp to hold the leg. Safe and secure, accurate and repeatable. Three minutes to make the jig.
It's good to be leery of the table saw and don't do things you're not comfortable with. Those instincts will keep all ten fingers where they belong. There's always a way to hold stuff or push it or rig up to do it safely. And we like safety. And fingers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39962/LegJig_for_WV.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1605291050)
(If you want, make the tail part longer so there's no chance of running into the saw blade with meat.)
Nothing about this is real critical, adjust to the scrap laying around and your comfort level. Don't make it too high that it's tippy though. Maybe make the runner out 2x stock for more stability. Let your conscience be your guide.
@btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) ,
Thanks for the diagram. I was just thinking of free-handing it against the fence but this looks simple and a lot safer and I have tons of handy scrap laying around that will work just fine for this.
I do see on the diagram they just used blank leg stock before the tenon's were cut into it. I was planning on cutting the grooves into finished tenons so there is less wood to cut and easier to make sure the groove is centered. I confess - sometimes my tenon is not centered in the leg and I just rotate the leg around to display it the way I think looks best.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 13, 2020, 12:25:27 PM
As to the round and triangular rumps - you have caused me to have a flashback to a big fat lady in a pair of tight silver sweatpants I saw going into a restaurant near Steubenville Ohio while I was working a project up there. We all commented that she looked like she was wearing 2 bags full of cats. It was not a pretty sight and I may wake up screaming tonight thinking about it. It has taken me 23 years to forget it now you brought it back. Thanks a lot!
See I told you the 6 legged bench is occasionally required! :D :D :D
Big Boned Gal â€" k.d. lang (1989) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlSCpPciP1A)
I made a compound drill press and drill from the bottom of the bench seat. the original ones were free hand, and the break out was on top. I think it is worth doing and using a backer board if the through tenons are wanted for the look. Rustic has a wide range of "Rusticity"! :D :D :D I just fixed it by elimination vs refining my technique. i love the look of the through tenons as well. keep up the good work.
Doc,
The one I saw was no "big-boned gal". She looked like she had taken 2 beach balls and stuffed them into a pair of shiny silver sweat pants. The view of her walking away was scarier than any B-grade horror movie I ever saw!
Oh - you say I am not being politically correct? You weren't there. PC be d---d!
Yeah, "rustic" leaves room for interpretation. Too refined and it's not rustic anymore. Customers vote with their wallet. Give 'em some choices. If a style isn't selling well, make changes.
WV, I just sketched that out in a hurry to show the basic concept. Probably better to cut the slot after the tenon is cut for several reasons. It's your cat and you decide how best to skin it. You can use a sled if you've already got one, or a miter guage and sacrificial board (with a clamp).
Your instincts on just holding the leg vertical with no support are right on. Recipe for trouble. And blood.
Personally I just grab a hunk of 2x6 and hold the leg in front it to run it through the saw, but I'm real used to doing that and know that it'll work for me.
I'm staying away from the three legged stool discussion. There's a old Queen song that should be playing behind it though. Relevant line: "Fat bottom girls, you make the rockin' world go 'round".
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 13, 2020, 02:04:28 PM
Doc,
The one I saw was no "big-boned gal". She looked like she had taken 2 beach balls and stuffed them into a pair of shiny silver sweat pants. The view of her walking away was scarier than any B-grade horror movie I ever saw!
Oh - you say I am not being politically correct? You weren't there. PC be d---d!
Well, I couldn't stop myself. Once heard that sorta thing compared to "two volkswagon beetles trying to pass each other".
Oh, you saw her too. :D
or the song by Donkey in the movie Shrek... "I like big bugs and I don't know why!!" :D :D :D
Donkey likes big Dragon butts (and he cannot lie) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzekZYQ1lnk)
Can we change the subject to grits or chickens or something? Even photos of MM's feet would be better than the visuals I am getting from this. :D
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on November 13, 2020, 04:05:43 PM
Can we change the subject to grits or chickens or something? Even photos of MM's feet would be better than the visuals I am getting from this. :D
Excellent point, but I don't think mm foot pictures are better. Maybe worse.
How about just a pleasnt view from the mill site?(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39962/92A84615-8FB2-4092-AB30-3AA7F8546580.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1605301917)
Howard started it!!! :D :D :D
I thought you kinda liked music, @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) :) smiley_hillbilly_tub_base smile_banjoman
Just a note to normal people just tuning in: this thread really is about benches but veered wildly off course five or six posts back. Hopefully it will return to normal programming.
I was deeply engrossed in mortises and tenon and comparing the attributes of steel vs wooden wedges and how to prevent breakouts when the Doc, digging back into his psychology training, reached totally unbidden into my past and pulled up a thread I thought was long buried - possible bona fide PTSD. Now all I can remember is the trees in btullah's last picture are probably smaller than the lady in question's legs (and better looking). steve_smiley
Quote from: doc henderson on November 13, 2020, 04:19:52 PM
I thought you kinda liked music, @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) :) smiley_hillbilly_tub_base smile_banjoman
Yeah, I like Music, not sure how we got there, but it's quite true there is a tune for everything. SO here ya go Howard:
Legs Like Tree Trunks - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-LFEow00as)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 12, 2020, 09:40:53 PM
How did you tighten the legs back up? Epoxy? If the tenon passes all the way through the mortise a steel sledgehammer wedge would be a quick and easy fix.
On the ones that the legs loosened on that we assembled when they were relatively green we pulled the legs, took some thin shavings from the Forstner bit and glued it between the tenon and the mortise and added a couple of 3" deck screws shot in at 90° from each other. When we intially glued the legs in we used polyurethane glue (gorilla glue). If the wood is dry, Tightbond 2 or 3 would be my choice.
I have a few that have gone all the way through but not on purpose. I took Poston's advice and just drill the mortises by feel. I try to get within 1/8" of going through but sometimes I go a little deep.
Cavey,
Thanks. I tried the angled deck screws on some of my early benches but was not satisfied with the results. I have not tried the epoxy yet.
Updated leg jig. Extended the stop for stability.
If you want to get fancy you could use a toggle clamp to hold the leg in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39962/LegJig_for_WV~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1605360662)
Nothing critical about any of this.
I waited too late to get pictures but I will finish and get some tomorrow after I go shoot a big old buck (first day of rifle season) or not ;). Our town has a couple of upcoming Christmas markets this and Saturday and next week and I decided to make a couple more benches to take along.
I cut up a live edge walnut 8/4 piece I had and salvaged a 30" and 36" piece out of the middle for 2 benches. I had cut this piece out a dead walnut heart I cut last year. I have watched that heart for 20 years. All sapwood had long rotted off. I cut legs out of some 9/4x9/4 stock and planed then nocked the corners off on my tablesaw and cut tenons on them and bored mortises for the legs, glued and drove the legs through and cut the excess tenon length then ran out out of time. I will cut the legs to length on the mill tomorrow and sand and apply tung oil. I wish I had a semi-retired machinist near me to show my how to fill a couple of knotholes with epoxy. I may even make a couple of oak benches out of some old stock I set aside of that use before Saturday if I don't get distracted by some other project.
Howard, speaking of friends. If you were more careful, you might not accidentally bore all the way through the bench! :snowball: :D :D :D
Doc,
Remember I started out that way making 4" thick benches and burying the tenon in the log without coming through. I did not find that system worked well. Maybe I needed to fill the gap in the mortise between the end of the tenon with epoxy or some other filler/adhesive. I tried adding screws and such but did not like the look or stability or lack thereof. Mostly I found the extra weight prohibitive and unnecessary. I feel 2" is about the minimum thickness needed to hold a tenon properly and it is plenty strong for the weight holding needs. I now know the exposed tenon end adds character and should increase the value and sales price of my benches.
And if that doesn't suit you I hope the next patient you give a finger wave to has a case of explosive diarrhea! :D
Just playin sir! :D . I use the compound drill press and set the stop at about 1/8th from going through.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 22, 2020, 06:44:30 PM
I wish I had a semi-retired machinist near me to show my how to fill a couple of knotholes with epoxy. I may even make a couple of oak benches out of some old stock I set aside of that use before Saturday if I don't get distracted by some other project.
Howard, there is no magic in this stuff, really. If you have a home depot or Lowes near you, this is the stuff I use:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/FAMOWOOD-1-qt-Glaze-Coat-Clear-Epoxy-Kit-5050080/301826159
Not because it is special or just right, but because I can pick it up locally when I need it. I have not yet tried the fancy stuff. I use this because so far it has worked well for me and I can get it locally, as needed.
It's an exact 50/50 mix. You should follow the directions they give you. But as with my normal "what if" mentality, I have tried to push it a bit and have learned gradually that if you are mixing small quantities, such as for crack fills and leg joints, you can just pour 2 equal cups, pour the hardener into the resin and mix for 10 minutes. You can skip the 'pour into a fresh cup after 6 minutes' step. (For larger quantities follow the instructions to the letter until you feel 'frisky'.) Your 50/50 mix should be very close, either weigh it on a kitchen scale or use good cups. I use the little solo shot glass cups, they are cheap and most food stores have them. (Don't ask me how I came on this idea, its a longer story than it should be.) Sometimes my wife picks them up at Wally world. They are perfect because you can use the lines in them for measuring. I find a half shot glass mix at room temps 65° will start to feel a bit warmer at almost exactly the 10 minute mixing point, then it is time to get to work. If it is cool out, and you cover the cup with your entire hand as you mix, this helps bring the temp up. The wood should also be at room temp or better. I use chop sticks for mixing and for filling cracks they work well to load up and dribble along the crack line. I also use acid brushes and chip brushes for larger irregular areas like pithy edges, pockets and things like that. Watch for bubbles as is settles into the crack and refill as needed. Any surface bubbles that hang out can be 'made gone' with just the quick sweep of a torch, like magic. But those bubbles don't mean anything in crack fills you will sand over unless they get really big. You want to leave a little 'hump' of epoxy on top so you know the void has been fully filled and it may settle an hour or two after you have walked away. That means you have to do it again the next day to finish the fill, so try to keep an eye on it for a while. Its really that easy, no magic at all, sorry.
It will take a little patience the first couple of times until you know how it will behave. I generally do my pour, go back over it to refill as needed and put the cup down, go have a beer or a coke or fill the stove or whatever, then come back and check it for voids and refill again, then I take whatever is left over and pour it into cracks on the next upcoming project so it is not wasted. If you are just filling cracks, that $23. kit will likely last you 6-12 months or more. Most of my pours are about a half shot glass. Once cured, it sands off like wood and when your put an oil finish on it will get a little shine to it (assuming you sand to 220 or 320 as I do). If you begin to sand (like the next day) and it feels gummy, Stop and give it more hours, it is not yet cured. If the ambient temp is low, curing can take a lot longer. This was a major problem in my shop last year. Consider bringing it in a heated space for the curing time.
It's that simple, no magic. Mix 2 parts and pour, cure, sand.
If you are using it on crack fills in the face of a slab you may need to mask the far side to prevent any bleed or leak thru. This stuff will make its way through the tiniest crack which is why it is SO good at stabilizing things. I have taken a lot of time to do every crack in a slab that was milled too close to the pith and split pretty well when drying. When all the cracks are filled on both sides, you can run the whole slab through the planer and move on as normal. This stuff is incredibly strong, I kid you not. Early on I did some destructive tests and every time, the wood failed before the epoxy. The very first bench/table I made to try out the legs was a cast off cut off from a 6/4 slab. It had a drying crack down the centerline. I figure it was good for a fire pit table and at the end of the season we'd throw it in the fire. But then I wanted to try this 'epoxy thing' everybody was talking about on the forum, so I got some and took that table and tried it. That table would have broke right down the center if you put a 20# load on it, there was no strength at all. After I epoxied it, well, I have it out in my shed now, I am using it for a mini-work bench. Solid as a rock. I smile every time I look at it. Amazing stuff and very simple to use, even a machinist can do it.
Tom,
I may have to try that but it will likely be Spring time before I do since all my work outside and do not have a fancy enclosed heated shop like some people I know. It would be too much trouble and I am not sure my marriage would stand the additional strain of me bringing my projects in the house and setting up shop in the basement/den by the big wood heater. Besides, if I did I am sure my wife would scatter ashes and dust over my wet epoxy just for spite when she emptied the heater again. Of course that my create a new wood look craze and I'd have to rub it in to the Doc. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59541/20201123_135340.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1606164924)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59541/20201123_135327.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1606164928)
Decided to give a bench a try. Friend of mine wanted a bench/low table to put her plants on. Used Spruce and Fir, gave it a routered out Scorpio sign inlay filled with epoxy since she's an astrology freak. Think it turned out pretty cool, hope she likes it
nice chamfer, angles and rustic elements combined. sadly it may be too nice to sit plants on.
Real pretty bench. I agree with Doc - too nice for plants.
Since the bucks did not cooperate I had a few minutes when I got in and while my mule and horse were in their stall eating their breakfast I went ahead and put the 2 walnut benches I made yesterday and cut them to length. Normally I cu toff at 17" but one of these I cut at 16" because of a bad spot on one leg. I still have to sand and tung oil them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2269.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606179151)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2270.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606179138)
Short bench is 30" & longer one is 36". I had some sapwood left on the short bench legs for contrast. I will likely take a wire brush on my drill to clean up the doty sapwood on the edges. A couple of knotholes begging OGH to come down with his epoxy kit. :D
Well, I had a fairly laid back Thanksgiving - we fed the grandkids hot dogs and Mac & Cheese - and we will have our Turkey and such later this week I guess. I got out and finished 10 Bluebird nest box "kits" which means I drilled the pieces for the fasteners (2" screws or nails) and tied them together with hay strings. I see that will not work long term as the 6" rails that hold the top on will fall out. Shrink wrap would work but may be cost prohibitive.
I wiped my last 2 walnut benches with another light coat of 100% Hope's brand Tung oil.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2276.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606428763)
The little bit of white in the tenon end is sapwood I left on for contrast. Some customers may not like it, other will buy because of it. ::) I had doty sapwood on the sides and I tried knocking it off with a wire brush in my drill but did not like the look so I took it off with a drawknife and actually liked the look better. I wiped the sides and ends with tung oil too. Very dark wood. Was a standing dead walnut heart I watched for years, even hung a deer fedder on it for a year or so, then cut it down and milled it last year.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2277.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606428764)
A little glint of sunlight for a change.
I started out to my new storage shed I built last Spring where my benches are stored to pick out a truck load to take to our town holiday event Saturday and the one after but passed my big stack of ash slabs and framing and spotted a LE slab about 42" long and widest spot about 12" so I pulled it out, pulled out and cut off 4 24"X3" square ash leg stock from under my RAS. I ran the legs and slab through my planer, knocked the corners off the legs with a table saw (Blade set at 45*, fence set about 2" over. I am still scared of this beast after last June.) Went back to the house and got my Titebond III I leave there to keep from freezing. I grabbed may favorite 1.5" auger and drilled 4 mortises in the slab/bench top, glued and drove the legs on, cut off the excess, added a steel wedge to each as one leg seemed loose. I put a band on the mill and sawed them to 17". I took the bench back and did some light sanding with my belt sander and 80 grit belt. I still had bark left on one side so in keeping with what I have learned from the Doc and OGH about always using the right tool for every job, I grabbed my flat nail puller and a claw hammer and tapped and pulled and the bark popped right off leaving the EAB tracks like I wanted. I wiped the legs and top with Tung oil which gave it a light yellow shine. Set it up to dry and ready to go with me Saturday. Hopefully it won't come home with me. I needed a low cost bench as well as my more costly walnut and such. I'll probably mark this one at $100 and take any offer over about $70 (But don't tell your friends in the area). :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606429857)
When I use these up I will not make 3" leg stock unless a special order. I'm finding 9/4 or 10/4 works better all around especially in my tenon cutter after I nock the corners off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606429855)
I like the little bit of crotchwood at the left end. A little spalting started at the top left of the picture.
If somebody wants it that rock it's on is for sale too. $50 where it sits in my pasture (Okay - make me an offer) and bring your own bulldozer to get it up. :D
WV Sawmiller very nice work on your benches I have learned a lot from your experience.I made 40 3x3 ash legs and have used pine and oak for practice legs to get the lumberjack 1 1/2 tenon cutter dialed in to the correct size .It seems as though with soft wood the chips are curly and long but the oak seemed to just cut in small chips .Does the tenon cutter do that in hard wood .
Thank you
@A-z farmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42480)
The softer the wood the longer the curls from what I have seen. I have never tried pine or spruce or such so can only compare green vs dry wood.
Are you hand holding your drill/tenon cutter or is it in a lathe or drill press or such?
From what I am seeing, as today, I get small chips when I first start and it is cutting the corners and such off the leg. When you start getting the actual peg on the tenon and cutting the shoulders you start getting more of the curls and the machine wants to twist out of your hand and such. I think the keys to the operation is keeping the blades sharp and keep light pressure encouraging the Lumberjack to cut smaller chips without grabbing too much. I find I even have to hold back sometimes to keep it from grabbing too big curls and making it hard to hold. In real soft small wood you can quickly and continuously cut big curls right to the end but with harder bigger wood it will jam the drill. I wish I had mine on a lathe or maybe even an old Shopsmith but have not found one I liked or could afford yet.
What you are describing is very much in line with what I am seeing. Just keep on using it and you will get better and it will get easier all the time. Cheers,
Howard, I don't know how you learned to use the right tool form me, must've been Doc. I would have used a drawknife on that (if I was thinking right that day).
Since you are using the same tool as me, but I different grade I wonder what color is the one that A-z has? I know Howards pegs come out pretty straight and mine have bumps all over them from the tool jumping and grabbing itself into the cut. I just sand them smooth after cutting and before fitting. I am using a hand held 2 handle drill that can and sometimes does throw me off my feet when it grabs. 1/2HP I think. My chips come out like a bag full of Fritos. I have never tried soft wood. Next time I make a batch I will try to dial it in. A-z, how did you go about that exactly?
BTW Howard, I really like that last L/E slab you knocked out with the flair on it. Nice touch. I did a table like that about 2 years ago and the owner loves it.
Tom,
Who ever said my tenon pegs were smooth? Often they look like a giant drywall nail with a series of rings. :D
Using a drawknife would have removed the EAB tracks in the wood which I wanted to leave for character. A chisel or big screwdriver might have worked but the wide flat on the puller actually worked well in this case. I drove the wide flat tip in the cambium layer then when I pulled it pulled the bark off and with most of the old cambium attached and the rest I could pop off with my Leatherman knife blade. It actually popped off in about 2-3 long sections. The bark had all popped off the other side so I don't know why it present on this side.
If you are getting the Frito chips I'd suggest a little less pressure and hold back a little. I think what you really want is the small chips. I get them like that sometimes too but the big ones are hard on the equipment and the operator. That is why I think a lathe might work better because you can control the pressure you put on it better.
Maybe somebody who uses a Lumberjack tenon cutter on a Lathe will chime in and enlighten us all.
I was real happy with the little slab with that wider crotch end. The best thing about it was it just fit in my planner making it much faster to smooth. I made that whole bench from start to finish in under 2 hours from the time I pulled it out of the stack till I wiped the top with tung oil.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 26, 2020, 08:34:54 PMI wish I had mine on a lathe or maybe even an old Shopsmith but have not found one I liked or could afford yet.
Keep an eye on CraigsList Free for a Shopsmith 10E or 10ER. Heavy cast iron. Plenty of parts available on eBay if you need something. I have 3 (one functioning). Probably get another together this winter for a dedicated woodworking drill press.
I see them in the local CL and trading magazine sometimes and thought I was going to trade a load of poplar framing lumber to a guy 8 miles up the road one time but when he took me to his shed he had parts scattered all over and could not find half of it. I figure one of these days I'll find one dirt cheap or willing to trade.
I paid $50 for my first one (incomplete - needed table and tailstock) and the other 2 were free.
Tendons are easy and fast to cut on a lathe. You need calipers, parting tool to size, a bowl gouge, and practice. Takes less than 5 minutes for me to cut four for benches.
I bought a right angle 1/2" clutched drill after realizing that getting a wrist reset was way more expensive than the drill. I did see, maybe on here, a drill strapped down with the tenon cutter and a clamp/feed lever slide type jig to hold and feed the work into it.
Don
I had to go look up a right angle drill as I don't remember ever seeing one and I still don't see how it works better cutting tenons in a piece of hard bench leg stock. I assume you stand 90* to the stock you are cutting instead of in line with it but it still looks to me like if the tenon cutter gets hung it is going to want to snatch it out of your hand. How does the right angle make it easier to hold and control?
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 26, 2020, 10:23:45 PMHow does the right angle make it easier to hold and control?
I would think it has a longer fulcrum.
Quote from: Larry on November 26, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
Tendons are easy and fast to cut on a lathe. You need calipers, parting tool to size, a bowl gouge, and practice. Takes less than 5 minutes for me to cut four for benches.
Larry,
That's about the amount of time it takes me to clamp them into a vise mounted on the upright of my pole barn and cut them with my Lumberjack tenon cutter. It also cuts them with a consistent 60* shoulder which is handy since I install mine at an angle.
Except for Practice, I don't currently have any of the items you mention above to work with. If I had a Lathe I would be trying to figure how to mount my Lumberjack tenon cutter on it and continue to cut the style I use now only hopefully the result would be a little smoother and the process a little more controlled. Thanks for the suggestion though.
I saw a posting where someone made a jig to fit their tablesaw and used their drill motor to turn the stock and the diameter of the tenon was controlled by the height of the tablesaw blade. What I saw looked like they were producing very respectable tenons.
The right angle does have a longer lever but the clutch was the reason I've gone that route. If you run it in low speed, 350rpm, if it jams the clutch slips and saves you. My first one was a timberwolf, I think DeWalt sells the knockoff now, my current one is a Makita which is more plasticky but still has worked well. I've got some whopper wrist breakers but they usually live on the shelf, I grab the right angle most of the time.
A little story, I had a Ryobi 1/2" drill one time. They had miscopied making that knockoff and it was a high speed big drill, that thing could get away from you in a hurry. I was standing up on a log wall corner and had the pipe handle in the drill while drilling down vertically in the corner with a long 1" bit. It caught a lag down in the wall and I lost control of it but somehow hit the trigger lock as I lost grip. I was too high up to move and that thing beat my shins mercilessly until it finally wound in enough cord to unplug itself. Of course hoping to preserve pride I looked around to see if anyone was looking. My helper was rolling laughing, tough love :D. When it punched him in the face a few days later we replaced that thing the next day.
Lazyflee- you might consider using a horizontal, wedged tenon "key" to hold your stretcher to the end leg stands. Seems like a logical thing in my wood clouded mind.
My geared Dewalt drill motor will break my old feeble wrist someday soon? I wound the cord up on it twice drilling my 6x10 oak foundation timbers for J-bolts.
For sure those 1/2 hp hand drills have my respect. I don't recall whose brand I have here now but it's a an older one and I try to get my whole body involved in making tenons. Both arms and my belly and legs. It has snagged me a time or two, but I managed to either power through it or let the switch go.
Back about 20 years ago I was up on a scissor lift drilling a pass through hole in a beam web for an EMT run and the drill caught on break through. It was an old porter cable and a beast. It used a piece of 3/4" pipe for the second handle and weighed a ton. When it grabbed I squeezed harder to hold on it it took way to long to get my brain to let go of the trigger with the correct finger while hanging on with all the other fingers. Anyway that sucker lifted me off my feet and the rest is pretty fuzzy but I think the pipe handle caught me in the forehead because I woke up laying on the deck of the scissor lift with a throbbing head. All the while normal shop traffic was taking place below me and nobody even noticed. I think I was about 20' up.
Howard, you cutter has a 60° taper? Mine has a radius. Maybe that is the difference. My tenons look like drywall nails too, but smooth ones. :D
as you know, I use a radial drill press, and an adjustable table that makes it compound. you could make a simple table jog (not adjustable) for your drill press with say the common angles. I use about 10 to 13°. I set it one direction and do two corners, then set the other angle and do the last two. on a four legged bench of course. more uniform as well. that is for the mortice. the tenons I have a jig, but I clamp them to my table saw fence so they are level, then use the level bubble on the tenon cutter, and I use my battery operated dewalt drill. I start with a bigger cutter and work my way down. when I get the tenon how I want it, I even put a chamfer on the end with a touch from the next smaller cutter. I range from 3/4 to 3 inch.
OGH,
By radius cut I assume you mean it is square instead of sloped like mine. Because of the angle I put on my mortises I prefer the angle (and because that is what I have to work with). Also I drill my mortises all the way through so I drive my leg in as far as it will go then cut off the excess.
Doc,
Sounds like you got the tenon kit and I can see where that might make things easier stepping it down in stages. I was only planning on making benches and just bought the 1-1/2" cutter. I do find mine works much better with round stock and the octagons work about the same. Sounds like you have a real nice shop with neat tools. I thought I was doing good when I moved up from a spade bit and tenons cut with a hatchet then cut to length with the same chainsaw and a chainsawed half log for a bench top. Actually since I used them at our family picnic area on dirt they would find their level and worked okay for a starter.
I think ogh has one like mine. the transition from tenon to leg, is a curve and not a flat angle.
I bought the 3 set of tenon cutters from lumberjack and they are the black ones which is commercial series.They have 2 blades in each cutter and it took me a while to get the cutters adjusted to cut the tenons the correct size .I first used a very old 5/8 inch DeWalt 450 rpm drill which worked but it is a bear to use. I have decided then to use our buffalo no 2 drill press and that seemed to do a very good job once I made the proper jig to hold it .
I am going to try and cut the holes in the benches with my tilting powermatic mortiser.If that does not work I will make a angled jig like doc did .
Thank you for all the suggestions.
I will get it done one leg at a time .
AZ,
Sounds like the same one I have only you have the set and I just bought the one. I am sure the jig is a great idea but The angle I use varies on the width of the bench top. I will cut a sharper angle if I am using a 6-8 inch wide top than if I am mortising in an 19-20 inch top.
Here is the angle of the shoulder on my tenon cutter. This also shows my vise used for clamping and a 3"X6" X24" crib block I grabbed off the stack to help support the leg blank. With square stock like shown I had to take a draw knife and knock the corners off. With my octagon legs I do not have to do that so they are faster to make.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0329~4.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606519231)
Didn't I post a video of how I did those tenon holes Howard? Where did I put that, your thread, or mine?
Yeah, I found it, reply#76 on my current thread, found here if you are interested A-z: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=110766.msg1735046#msg1735046
WV Sawmiller
Very nice pictures and set up but I do not get wood chips of that size with my tenon cutters .
My son says I am over thinking the process but I am a farmer and not a craftsman yet.
Thank you
Old Greenhorn
I always follow your posts I must have missed that one thank you for the post number .I am learning something new here every day .
AZ,
Some of those may be from the drawknife in the background. Those are bigger than most I make now. I have made them that big but it is very hard on equipment and me and I try to be more careful now.
Tom,
I went back and watched you make those mortises with that Forstner bit. I am not a big fan of the Forstner. It seems to do well in a drill press when you are cutting straight down on a flat surface. Those round cuts like in your video can be hard to work with. Too thin and you don't have enough wood to hold the tenon well, too thick and the tenon won't pass through for trimming. I'm liking the 8/4 LE slabs for benches but sometimes that first cut slab is just too pretty to throw away and you just have to try it. If too thin you can splice on a thin board or piece of veneer or such to give the tenon more to hold to.
Your tenons on post 69 look very much like mine so we may be using the same tenon cutter.
I loaded about 12-13 benches on my truck from about 30" - 5' to take to the local town Christmas event. They are under my hay barn right now. I hope I don't have to carry them too far. I am setting up in an old renovated but not operational hotel. I have a few birdhouses and cookies and crates I'll try to set up too. I'll have to pull up, unload on the sidewalk, park nearby and come back and shuttle to my spot I guess. It sure would be nice to have a helper to watch things during set up and breakdown. I also have a display box full of my wife's photos from local to all over the world to try to sell.
When loading I found one short oak bench with a loose leg. it already has a steel wedge in it so that may be a candidate for an epoxy experiment. Or I could just mail it to NY or Kansas for help. :D
All my round tenons get sawed with a thin kerf cut across the grain at 90 degs then driven in tight with glue, then I drive a wooden wedge made from a hard (often contrasting color) wood like osage or maple, etc. with the wedge cut inserted directionally so as to not split the bench/table top. takes simple planning with square legs or to position interesting grain outward.
Assuming the legs are very dry wood the legs should get tighter, not looser, if the top has much more moister in it as is often the case in rustic builds.
On a wood lathe any rounded tenon shape is easy. I also use the solid metal Veritas tenon cutters designed to cut one dia. and have a Logman (log furniture, railings etc.) tenon kit which does I think 3 sizes-they sell other size ranges than mine-it uses a router bit so always rounded shoulders. It is far more versatile than the Veritas. I used it to make a sassafrass log bed not the Veritas.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 27, 2020, 08:23:33 PMWhen loading I found one short oak bench with a loose leg. it already has a steel wedge in it so that may be a candidate for an epoxy experiment. Or I could just mail it to NY or Kansas for help. :D
You could ship it, of course, but then what would you learn? And you would miss out on learning a new handy skill. Get yourself a small epoxy kit either on eBay, lowes, or HD and let me (us) know and we can walk you through it. It really is easy and will take about 20 minutes and an over night cure. I think that's the right fix for that leg.
OGH,
Boy you must be a big advocate of this tough love thing! :D Okay, I will look for one of these kits with the dual plunger kit. Actually, I may have one left. I think I used half of it on my mule's hoof a while back when he had a fungus infection and a split on his hoof and our Amish farrier dug out a deep chunk of it. The bench is only about 28" long and I could probably smuggle it inside without getting too much grief. We will see.
I loaded up last night for our local Home Town Christmas event and left my truck under shelter at the hay barn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2281.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606599913)
The white sticking up are bluebird nest box kits stuck down in whatever cracks were available. They are plenty heavy enough not to blow out in my 4.5 mile journey.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2282.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606599908)
You can see some crates sticking up too. Some are for sale, others have kids blocks and cookies.
I was there about 15 minutes early along with 2-3 other vendors. I asked for and got the best spot in the house right by the front door where I did not have to carry my stuff far. When they opened I parked on the street, blocked both doors open with a couple of crates till we all got set up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2284.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606600247)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_2283.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1606600246)
Cookies, crates, hat and coat rack, birdhouses, benches, engraved RO LE planks and a box of my wife's photos for sale. Very tight control on number of customers in the building at one time. Steady but moderate traffic all day but mostly local and few looking. All I sold all day were the odd shaped cookie outside the crate and 4 of my crates (3-quart dz and 1 pint doz sized). $50 income for 5 hour of operation. I did talk to several folks including some former customers, who talked like they'd be in touch in the Spring if not sooner for some mobile sawing. That is typical of these trips and I list them as an advertising expense as most of what I make at them come from future sawing jobs.
The mayor came over and helped me pack up to leave and I left the truck parked overnight in the barn again. I will likely unload it next week but it is tempting to just let it set all week. We will see. I guess I need to make a few more crates before next Saturday. My dozen pint size crate perfectly nests inside my dozen quart size crate.
Whoa whoa whoa! Just back up the truck a little here. I don't know anything about using that tube stuff, how it mixes or how it will work. I am dubious it will function as desired. I can walk you through the conventional system but I have never tried the stuff you have. You will need something that has the consistency of warm maple syrup or thinner. The kits I buy are just under 25 bucks.
As I have a bench repair coming back I will see if I can document the process for you.
Here is the stuff I use https://www.lowes.com/pd/Famowood-Glaze-Coat-Gloss-Oil-based-Lacquer-Actual-Net-Contents-1-Gallon/3366918 available at lowes and HD depending on the store.
Howard you had a pretty good spread of very nice American made products. It would be nice to see more people buying stuff like you had than stuff from China
Tom,
This is the stuff I am thinking about. https://www.amazon.com/Gorilla-Epoxy-Minute-ounce-Syringe/dp/B001Z3C3AG/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=2-part+epoxy&qid=1606606217&sr=8-6
Made by the Gorilla glue people. Are you incinerating it is not the same as what you use? :D
WB,
Thanks. I thought it was a nice set up. After I took the picture I actually put out 2-3 of my wife's photos on each bench to display them. I really thought a few of them would sell. I did have a nice lady from our home town weekly newspaper stop and take pictures and write up about the Lichtenberg engraving on some of my benches and a unique new River Gorge bridge picture my wife took several years ago she is real proud of. Four years ago she had been a poll worker with us during the general election. We will see if I get any worthwhile advertising from that.
Well Howard, I looked that stuff up and read the usage instructions. As anybody who reads the FF knows, what doesn't work at all for one person, can work just fine for another and any thinking person will accept that.
Having said that, I don't see this working well for me and here's why: The working time on this is VERY short and I suspect (although I don't know) that this stuff will be fairly thick. If that is true, it will not pick down into small cracks and have the time it needs to soak into the wood fibers and get a good grip. You have a loose leg, with I am assuming very small cracks. When I do small cracks like that it takes quite a while for the epoxy to 'perk down' and I sit there for as long as I can work it (15 minutes or more) and coax out air bubbles with a toothpick to allow epoxy to get in. I don't see how you can do that with this stuff unless you can remove the leg entirely. Unlike glue, epoxy needs some space or small gaps to work fully.
I don't want to discourage you, but I do want you to succeed, lest you say 'epoxy doesn't work for me'. I can only tell you what works for me and I can even video a leg repair if you like, but I don't think I can help you with the product you've chosen, I don't know enough about it and have never used it. If it is thin and flows really well, it might (should) work just fine.
By the way, I got so distracted by the 'tube thing' that I completely forgot to mention how great I think your booth looked. I aspire to such if they ever open things up here again and allow such goings on. Today I spent some time packing up and wrapping finished projects that are not moving so I have shop room to work. I feel like I am making stock for a make believe business. :D
Tom,
The advantage of this stuff is convenience. You just squeeze the syringe and it automatically dispenses the correct/equal amounts which you then mix with a popsicle stick or such. Seemed to me it was pretty thick the one time I used it on my mules hoof. And in this case the bench leg is loose enough it will come completely free. :(
Thanks for the compliment. It was a much better set up than I had expected and I was able to get the first spot so everybody coming in and going out had to pass by my "booth". Next week I will be in a different building and I fear I may have to haul my stuff a lot further. I do have 2 booths and my wife and I both have one. Me for my wood products and her for her pictures. I just wish I'd had more customers instead of spectators but, again, I may get more work from this in the future. My last big job came from a USDA demo I did over a year before the customer called me.
Yes, there is THAT part of it that is much bigger (potentially) than the show itself. You have your sawmill and I have 'other stuff' that does best under word of mouth and just a simple chat. I have not really had anything concrete yet, but do get inquiries here and there that are just word of mouth and a little from FB. A show and handing out a lot of cards and talking to folks about what they "want' instead of what I 'have now' would go a long way to making something perk. Right now I am fishing for commissions. :D
As for your leg, yank it out, clean off any glue you can, mix the epoxy and slather it on and stick it in. Stand the bench up and dribble a bunch on the top of the leg and try to get a little mound going and hold that if you can. It sands off really easy when it is cured, but it is hard. You can even polish it by working your way through the grits down to 3000 or so if you like. It should work that way, but I don't know what kind of penetration you will get.
Another approach to throwing money at epoxy fixes might be to simply make another leg that fits tighter? :D And use in-expensive Titebond wood glue as the extra factor beyond a tenon wedge.
True but where is the new knowledge gained from that? Where is the adventure of trying something different, where is the thrill of a new adventure well met and conquered? Where in that, is a new tool acquired to be kept in hiding and revealed when it is needed and deployed to the most effect and amazement of one's peers?
Where o where is all of this I ask you?
Just askin'?
:D :D :D ;D :) 8) :P
I can say that I prefer chopping up wood to buying epoxy. That said I'm no stranger to epoxies having used them in industry and auto body work too.
The dull reality- the bond of an aliphatic wood glue is stronger than an epoxy if the joint is clean and properly adjoining parts. I paid like $18 bucks for my last gallon of Titebond blue cap glue from the KS hardware store where i get my WATCO & glue on Amazon.
Tightwad buys Titebond :D
Are we having a "glue war"? ;D
My neighbor had picked up the 1 minute epoxy with the mixing tip, for his mesquite mantle. I cut the heads off of lag bolts for him, and then he asked me to help install, but the plan was already set. first attempt, the epoxy sat up prior to getting the mantle on. we re-drilled the holes and went faster after the practice run. 5 minute would have been better for a couple old guys, and prob. did not need any since the variance in angle and gravity, as well as the stone façade would have kept it in place.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=108734.msg1698254#msg1698254
OGH - you seem to be settling into this new teaching mode really well and are determined I learn something new. Be forewarned - my mental hard drive is already full and for me to learn something new I will have to do a memory dump to make space for the new. And what I dump might be something that gets me in trouble like my wife's birthday or something (Or has that already passed? ???) :D :D Actually I am planning on trying it so I do add that as an option in the future.
kantuck, I know cutting another leg is always an option but if I made the mortise too big I suspect I will have the same problem on the next one. I use Titebond glue already and usually only add the wedge when the glue alone does not seem tight. I am actually tempted to just pull the leg, remove the old glue and make a putty out of wood glue and sawdust from my sander, pack the mortise and coat the tenon good and drive it back in and see if that is not a quick and dirty but workable option.
My 4 x 12 x~6' wood mantle was beat onto several rebar posts retained in drilled holes in the masonry and laid up as built too, plus it has flat rocks laid around it as well. I simply sized the holes to hold it in place and to grab the rebar, no goop involved.
My wife has enough stuff piled on it year round as the ultimate test.
FWIW, there is a juvy program near me and adjacent to the KY State Forestry Farm too which has the boys/older teens there making benches same as seen in the WV display above. I didn't work there at that program but me thinks a local largish sawmill over that way may donate thick slabs for the projects.
Another tactic might be to wrap veneer wood with a liberal glue coating around the tenon and clamp it until dry and recut or pound it in while glues wet.
I have an old hewed log short piece of white oak I salvaged from an old hewed log barn as the end table beside my evening nest recliner. The log piece is ~ 6" thick and been indoors for well over 40 years and the red oak turned legs are driven into the holes and wood wedged too. In the summer the legs jiggle a tiny bit but not much as it's too heavy to actually wobble. In the winter the logs piece grabs the legs tighter. I've not had that happen in my other many stools I've made. I used to sell them but what few since then I give away. I made mostly 3 & 4 legged stools with tops of 8/4 wood from shorts left from boards I turned sq's from.
kantuck, now you have let the cat out of the bag where I learned to make my benches. How will I ever live this down? They told me I could start over and nobody would ever know about my past if I left the state, grew a beard and and changed my name. >:( :D :D
I don't see the real advantage of using veneer wood vs just making a wet putty of wood glue and fine sawdust and driving the leg back in while still wet, letting it dry then sanding off any excess showing. Looks like I would basically be doing the same thing. Veneer wood would not fit without sanding down the tenon or widening the mortise.
Well, while I feel we are far from having a glue war, :rifle: I do have to take exception to one thing and that is that titebond is as strong as epoxy. I will just say that I do not believe this is the case given my limited experience. But I won't argue this point until I have done some research to back up my thoughts. ;D
We all have different approaches to what we do. Some look for the quickest and most effective solution, others try new stuff to see if it is good for them, I am of the ilk that tries new things just to see how it works. I might not be able to use it on the first application, but there may be something perfect down the road. I also like to learn what doesn't work, which is very important to me. Some folks call these 'mistakes', I call them well earned and learned education. :D
Tom, for the record just remember when you start throwing nuclear hand grenades remember that I was not the one who said epoxy was not as strong as glue. I don't know enough about either to comment so I will remain in a neutral corner till the dust settles. I would think glue would be more flexible than epoxy but I have no experience or documentation to back up that opinion.
When I unloaded my truck I found one maple leg was slightly loose but I had not wedged it so it was a quick and easy fix and one more oak leg needs tightening but is already wedged. I can't help but wonder if I could just turn them upside down and re-glue and see it that would fill the gap and do the job.
I got out today and rebuilt 1 and made 4 new pint dozen jar size crates to take with me Saturday as I sold 4 last weekend. I used up the last of my 2"X 3/8" lath strips so I can't make any more till I cut some more strips.
OK, I did my research and just like the election discussions, there is an awful lot of missing information, speculation, 'expert opinions', and other information available but little I would call factual. Titebond does not give a lot of data about the product except to tell you how great it is.
I did refer to the Wood Handbook, which has this to say about PVA glues (which is what Titebond is:
Poly(vinyl acetate) emulsion Liquid ready to use; often polymerized with other polymers; white to tan to yellow; colorless bondline Liquid applied directly; pressed at room temperatures and in highfrequency press High dry strength; low resistance to moisture and elevated temperatures; joints yield under continued stress Furniture; flush doors; plastic laminates; panelized floor and wall systems in manufactured housing; general purpose in home and shop
The Wood handbook has this to say about epoxy:
Epoxy Liquid resin and hardener supplied as two parts; completely reactive, mainly solvent-free; clear to amber; colorless bondline Resin and hardener mixed by user; reactive with limited pot-life; cured at room or elevated temperatures; only low pressure required for bond development High dry and wet strength to wood, metal, glass, and plastic; formulations for wood resist water and damp atmospheres; delaminate with repeated wetting and drying; gap-filling Laminating veneer and lumber in coldmolded wood boat hulls; assembly of wood components in aircraft; lamination of architectural railings and posts; repair of laminated wood beams and architectural building components; laminating sports equipment; general purpose home and shop
The copy and paste thing didn't format out very well, but the info is there none the less. On the face of it as Epoxy is rated for Structural use and Titebond is not, you could call titebond 'better' on some level, just as you could call Epoxy better on a different level. The truth is, according to @GeneWengert-WoodDoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20498) in his webinar on gluing for the NHLA, a properly glued joint is 1.5 times stronger than the wood itself, so regardless of the glue you select, the wood should fail first anyway. I'd be curious to see if the good Doctor would say one is stronger than the other. I will guess that he won't pick one, but that's just me.
I choose the epoxy for many things because I find that is does a better job of penetrating into the wood fibers and capillaries and things like that there to really get a good bond. It also does not leave that ugly brown/yellow color in thicker glue gaps, epoxy is more neutral and smooths out better. They are different things for different purposes. I use both often.
I think this 'glue line' on the bench I just finished adds a nice element, like pinstriping, and you would not want that if it was PVA glue.
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You can paste away references to various glues but the glue joints I make are going to be made with yellow Titebond blue cap other than Titebond green cap for moisture resistance or too darken the joint using black walnut. I rarely use hide glue as I mostly never do antique repairs, so on. Besides avoiding epoxy for wood shop use I also dislike original Gorilla Polyurethane glue! Besides being messy it lacks the strength of less expensive yellow wood glues. Not sure what that ones good for really? See Fine Woodworking magazine for glue tests, not me.
Veneer is easily made on a table saw too any thickness and the reason I chose it as a suggestion is that it could be made from the same wood and what showed as end grain would be not only be the same species but also real wood not glue & dust mixture which can look different due to the glue in it. I do use sawdust & glue from my wood sander bag (I empty the bag for each projects species) for certain defects and wasn't suggesting it would lack strength altogether, I was after the esthetics of end grain and real wood showing.
Internet repairs are not usually logical, so I give.
The Morgan Co., KY, Woodsbend Boys Camp "graduate" ( :-\) we have here is to be commended for continuing to produce good work! :D
Kentuckid, apparently you seem to think I was trying to argue which way was better. Let me assure you I was not. Nor was I trying to change anybody's mind on the way the do things. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' with this stuff. I was simply pointing out the strengths of each. Everybody has their own way of doing things that work for them. Some folks do like to learn about new things that might be helpful to them.
I am sorry if you took offense in any way. That was not my intent.
Nope, I'm not mad about anything but do mind the weather today. 8) Kind of nasty here today.
The extent of your post seemed to lean toward changing my mind which I am sometimes willing to do, but not ready to spend more on epoxy when yellow glue is cheap and strong.
My only question is do I need to go down and rescue just the titebond or both the titebond and the epoxy. They are saying 20's and the S word tonite.
DOn, if they are outside, I would. If they are in a building you probably have a buffer to keep you ok. I am really cheap, so I would take a chance if I had doubts. Man it rained like mad here today!
the titebond service guys are great. I buy 1 and 3 in gallons. you can add up to 10% water if it get a little thick. they will send you new caps if you ask. I or originally buy the 16 once bottle and refill. i could not find the same caps anywhere. they have twice sent me several caps in the color for the type of glue. i also have the dark.
Since the bench topic veered towards glue, I'll offer a tip on a top. I replace my titebond glue tops with yellow mustard flip tops. They close easily and I don't find myself chewing on the tops trying to manipulate dried glue out of the hole.
Funny, I have never had trouble with the caps. Maybe I should start saving them instead of discarding them with the bottle and sell them to you guys? :D Really , the glue just chips right off, I have no issue. But I do like the mustard cap idea. I'll have to give one of those a try.
That's the problem with the worlds best glue ever, you'd never get the cap off ::) ;D
after a few years of cleaning the dried glue out, the top gets mis-shaped and it will not seal and preserve the glue. if you want to pull apart to clean, you can soak in hot water and pull the end off the cap to clean. just wait OGH, now that you are a woodworker, you will wish you could get those back! :)
Well, I have 2 WO benches downstairs near the wood heater tonight and maybe for another day or two. I made some putty with glue and sander dust but mostly just poured the Titebond III in the seams. Some ran out and I wiped it off till it seems to have dammed up the rest. I will keep adding glue till it mounds up. I will re-sand the tops in a day or two and apply more tung oil. I'm thinking this will tighten the legs. It already seems to be working. Not as fancy and a lot of the workmanship I see here from many of the rest of you guys. We will see. It is like chicken soup - it might help and it can't hurt.
I bought a couple different size Fastcap glue-bots for my titebond and would never go back to those hard to use titebond caps. Never have to wait and can apply the glue accurately at any angle because it pushes up from the bottom. Tips are easy to swap for precision work. My favorite glue. Just have to be careful where you buy it because places like Home Depot can have very old stock.
Titebond has a date code on the bottle, the titebond website has the decoder ring and also explains shelf life.
Edited to include link to titebond faq: http://www.titebond.com/resources/use/all#:~:text=The%20first%20letter%20is%20A,batch%20number%20for%20that%20day.
Gap filling is where epoxy shines and pva's fail. That monkey dust will work if there is no stress but is apt to fail sooner in that application, titebond really needs a well fitted long grain joint to do its job. Just more on glues, thus far the only glue that is being used for structural cross laminated timber panels is polyurethane, basically gorilla glue. They can't handle gap filling either. I think there are epoxies in trials, I doubt a pva can get there. Here nor there just more stuff for pondering.
Quote from: Don P on November 30, 2020, 09:41:40 PM
Gap filling is where epoxy shines and pva's fail. That monkey dust will work if there is no stress but is apt to fail sooner in that application, titebond really needs a well fitted long grain joint to do its job.
Absolutely.
Another thing to consider. When you drill a hole (mortise) in the seat that hole is 90% end grain. Glues do not handle end grain well. They stick but not with the strength of side grain.
The legs are air dried, maybe even on the green side so wood movement is also going to be an issue pva doesn't like.
With the above considerations I would use West Systems Gflex epoxy. Its formulated to handle a little wood movement, fills gaps, and can be used on wet wood.
I did a few benches years ago with the assumption my glue would fail in the future. I turned the tendons on the lathe with a step and pined them in the seat with a dowel. Haven't failed yet but the legs have movement so I assume the glue failed....can't remember what I used if any.
Larry,
Thanks for the info.
Why would the mortise and tenon connection be 90% end grain? I am drilling through a flat 2" slab so the sides of the mortise look to me like side grain. I drill/cut the tenons from the end of the leg but the glue is on the sides of the tenon peg, not the end which is cut off as excess, so that looks to me like side grain. What am I missing here?
Quote from: doc henderson on November 30, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
the titebond service guys are great. I buy 1 and 3 in gallons. you can add up to 10% water if it get a little thick. they will send you new caps if you ask. I or originally buy the 16 once bottle and refill. i could not find the same caps anywhere. they have twice sent me several caps in the color for the type of glue. i also have the dark.
Several years ago I read on their website that you could replace water several times before it was bye bye glue. Freeze cycles for yellow glue have a limit too, I keep my gallon jugs at the house and try to remember to bring the smaller use containers to the house. Just don't throw it away after only once frozen.
I've mentioned this before- on Amazon we tend to lean toward the free shipping on items but there's a KS Hardware seller on there who has WATCO products and Titebond which are heavy but you only pay one small shipping fee for as much as you buy at one time. I try to group my WATCO Danish gallons and Poly Wipe on finishes which store well with my gallon yellow and qts of green cap glue which have limited storage. Something to look for and save money!
Glue is heavily marked up in box stores!
By caps I assume you mean the small ones that clog.
Klingspor catalog (they have a Hickory, NC retail store too) has some good wood shop products for gluing/finishing, I've had good service from them.
Using a round tenon as the e.g., it's mostly NOT! end grain that is in contact with the benches top? The end grain is showing unless the tenon is captured in a hole that doesn't pass through the bench top. But even then the sides of the tenon are contacting the wood grain on two sides of the hole that's not end grain.
What matters far more in the bench construction is the moisture content of the wood tenon and the bench top.
Using my chairmaking experience, a dry tenon inserted into a relatively green chair post or seat or stool/bench top will remain there until it breaks. Old timers made a tenon supply up to use later as dry wood pieces.
In the 1970's the PA lawyer, Alexander, who made old time green wood items in his backyard, wrote a book called "Making a Chair From a Tree" which basically put into print what old time chairmakers had known for hundreds of years- tenons don't need glued if the moisture is right in the parts your using.
I don't mean to make this into an argument on epoxy vs. regular yellow glue but rather that the thread become informative overall and not lean toward reliance on epoxies to build items with tenons for rungs or legs.
Properly done in this e.g., the glue is simply a modern addition to the strength of the joint, not the main event.
On benches I like the wedge as an esthetic touch aside from it being a wedge. There's also the closed bench top hole on a very thick bench top, such as a log slab piece, with a captured wedge that's unseen to consider.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 01, 2020, 04:08:05 AM
Larry,
Thanks for the info.
Why would the mortise and tenon connection be 90% end grain? I am drilling through a flat 2" slab so the sides of the mortise look to me like side grain. I drill/cut the tenons from the end of the leg but the glue is on the sides of the tenon peg, not the end which is cut off as excess, so that looks to me like side grain. What am I missing here?
You got it right, the grain is what it is.
when I do not know what to do with part or all of a log, I make leg stock. I have two 55 gallon ploy barrels near full with 8 to 10 foot leg stock, 1.5 to 2.5 inch square. they have been there for several years, and a fresh bench top with a mortise can shrink as it dries and clamp onto the tenon. I also use titebond usually 3 if the bench may end up outside.
Larry makes a good point, I never thought of that before. When you drill a mortise hole perpendicular to the grain, you expose end grain in almost all of the sidewalls of the hole, the same as the end cut in the board. Any glue will work differently with end grain verses long grain. Especially in wood with certain fiber structures that like to wick up moisture.
If I recall my reading correctly, Epoxy does much better with end grain than PVA and this explains why those waterfall joints which are 100% end grain holds so well with the epoxy.
Interesting conversation. ;D
[Edit to add:] Sorry Kentuckid, I missed one of your replies before but I just saw the one regarding the discussion flow. I too am not trying to make this onto a debate of one verses the other and I don't know why that keeps coming up. It's just a good discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of various approaches as well as the mechanical aspects of glue joints or eve joints without any glue at all. Its a very good conversation :) Howard started here.
the weakness of an end grain joint can be over come by increasing the surface area. this is the reason we do rabbits for a 90° joint the so it has more area, and registers into the corner of the rabbit. it is half end grain and half side grain. I agree to make the tenons tight, and use the glue to make up for any voids, including the pores in grain, microscopically. OGH. your 45° waterfall joint with a tenon effectively increases the surface area. I agree epoxy may be better to fill larger voids or gaps. you could still glue a joint, and then fill gaps if they exist after the glue shrinks with epoxy. an ideal joint would hold the project together without glue, (without stress), and the glue then makes it a permanent joint.
On one of my many Smithsonian visits I spent much time studying the wood furniture there from hundreds of years ago. It's amazing that it's mostly still held together as the maker did it back when.
I have little doubt that epoxy shrinks less, very stable, etc., than other common use glues but the wood still moves no matter what you use.
Doc,
I like that idea and am finding myself making more leg stock than I used to do. I am about ready to land on 9/4 square stock for benches as I am liking the look and performance of it so far. 12/4 square stock is good to have around if you are making table legs for things like kitchen tables and such. I have sold some several times by just letting the customer know I had some.
I have made some bench legs out of 8/4 pieces of slabs and such. Since the tenon is 1-1/2" I assume that is still the weak point if made from 2" square stock.
after I have squared up a cant, and I have what I need, I will leave the bottom board (that can only cut down to 1 inch) thicker like 1.5 to 2.5 inches. for leg stock. Especially if I cut a slab I see a bench in. I also have a couple glu-bots and they work ok, but I forget to put the caps back on. you can buy accessories, and replacement tip.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) ,
You mention 1.5" stock for legs. Do you make legs that small? 2" is the smallest I have tried so far.
yes for children. I have a variety, most around 2 inches. I like having the stock, and often all legs come from the same stick. I can look at the seat, and look at the leg stock and pick. I like to have the same species usually, but like with the Mulberry, I did not have that. I really like the octagonal legs you make.
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considering a 1 legged bench... :) guess that would be a stool. think they used them to milk dairy cows.
these were about 12 inches tall I think. you can see the radial profile of my tenon cutter on those legs.
You know I never thought of 1.5", I should try that! Especially on those foot stools.
Leg size fits the item. My rockers for kids have smaller posts and tenons, like stool vs a bench.
I saw turning squares/chair posts out years in advance into hexagons from heavy 8/4 stock and rely on fitment and glue not shrinkage to hold the tenons. It greatly saves storage space for wood.
I have enough to probably last beyond my lifetime wired in stacks on shelves up high.
I like variety in wood projects not always the same thing. Since I don't sell stuff I can switch around from carving a bowl to a chair to something else.
Next comes a walnut stereo cabinet for a turntable/speakers for a Son made to his ideas, not mine.
He likes the one he saw on www.SalliePlumleystudio.com (shes near Richmond, VA) sells on her woodworking website. Take a peek to see some girly woodworking... ;D
a word of caution to anyone considering a 1 legged stool. be sure to read, understand and follow all the safety instructions included with the stool. You do not want to sit on that stool, in a disoriented direction. :D :D :D :o :o :o 8) 8) 8)
I got onto stools from seeing the work of a wood guy who came here from Pigeon Forge, TN to train locals in wood furniture back when the feds were trying to save KY from itself. He was one of the best I've ever seen and their operation was large and successful until he left. I use their catalog (called Stanton Woodworking at the time) pictures for many of my furniture pieces. There chairs were superb! Chairs had solid but mostly cornhusk woven bottoms and a few hickory bark too. Many of their items were made from wormy chestnut, mostly cherry & walnut, maple.
They had maybe 6 or 8 different stools alone which are a great item for those short cut-offs from longer boards. I have made dozens of the wooden candelabras they sold made entirely from 1" thick wood parts. Same for the sliding book holder which also uses short cuts for end pieces and two thin strips the ends slide on. Mostly I have made and sold in the past three stools- a fiddleback top w/4 turned legs, a 3 legged milk stool w/elongated triangular top and a 10-12" sq top w/ 4 legs all have 1 1/2 " legs . Stool legs come from remainders of full sized chair post cuttings thus stools follow chairs well to utilize wood completely. 1.5" sqs are often the result of a defect removed from a 2" sq. In woodworking one thing follows another to utilize the lumber!
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2020, 09:07:39 AM
a word of caution to anyone considering a 1 legged stool. be sure to read, understand and follow all the safety instructions included with the stool. You do not want to sit on that stool, in a disoriented direction. :D :D :D :o :o :o 8) 8) 8)
My back doesn't like sitting on stools at all, no matter the leg count! I do find them dandy for tying my shoes though! :D Pm me if you'd like a copy of their rare old catalog.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2020, 09:07:39 AM
a word of caution to anyone considering a 1 legged stool. be sure to read, understand and follow all the safety instructions included with the stool. You do not want to sit on that stool, in a disoriented direction. :D :D :D :o :o :o 8) 8) 8)
One leg milk stool...My wife spent some time in a re-hab facility recovering from a stroke. One of the training procedures involved trying to sit on a large beach ball. her therapist (who grew up on a dairy farm) commented about wishing for her granpa's one legged milk stool. I never heard of such, but I went home and made her one. Worked so well it was incorporated into her regular program replacing the beach ball...
I don't want to go see Doc about removing the stool leg when the stool top cracks and breaks and interfere with regular stool operations. :D
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These are the two little WO benches I re-glued. Mostly just sanded off the scuff marks and excess glue on and around the tenon tops on the legs. I went ahead and re-sanded a spalted maple bench that had gotten a little dirty and applied tung oil to all 3. I hope it sets up outside in our below freezing weather tonight.
WVSawmiller
I finally cut the ash leg tenons and I think it did a good job once I got it dialed in .
Than you for all the advice and help now I am on to the curved benches.
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Looks good so far. Curved wood is fun. I am anxious to see how yours turns out.
Honestly speaking, if I had a loose leg tenon, I'd grab another stick of wood and turn one that was bigger.
That's maybe what I wish (or should have) I'd said back a few days ago... :D
My tenon cutter only cuts one size tenon. I don't know if I could move the blades out on it a little and cut another bigger one. In this case I think the extra glue is going to work. I will try epoxy in the future.
Both of mine adjust-one you move the router bit the other the blade adjusts.
Well, I may have to try moving the blade back a fudge and cutting 2-3 new legs because when went to load up for tomorrow's trip I found the legs were wobbly again. My glue did not survive the cool nights. Oh well, at least I learned something so it was not wasted effort. Kind of like Edison with his light bulbs. ::)
Some wide hand plane shavings may be used to serve as glue in wraps around the tenons.
Well, I guess I could remove the legs, pull the metal wedge already installed somehow, then wrap the leg with dental floss or nylon cord or such, re-glue, re-install then put the wedges back but that may be more work than it is worth. Actually I like the wrapping idea, the issue is just what to use. Maybe I should try teflon plumbers tape? It stops leaks in my pipes. :D
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2020, 09:07:39 AMa word of caution to anyone considering a 1 legged stool. be sure to read, understand and follow all the safety instructions included with the stool. You do not want to sit on that stool, in a disoriented direction. :D :D :D :o :o :o 8) 8)
In this position You Do Not want to be facing the cows head ;D :o.
Oh really? Do you think I want to be facing the other end? :D
I packed up last night and went to our local town sponsored Small Business Christmas event. This time I was assigned a couple of spots (One for me and one for my photographer wife) in our old middle school gym. The school has been condemned for mold and leaks and classes this year are being held on a rotating basis at the HS. Anyway I had the 2 spots closest to the loading door which pleased me greatly.
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I think I had 14 15 benches, some birdhouses (Kits in the white trash bags), crates, a couple of Lictenberg engraved RO LE 4' slabs, cookies and photos from my wife's collection.
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One of the tables used to display wifey's photos. Pictures from local animals and landscapes, African and Amazon animals and plants. Alaska including whales and Grizzly bears, etc.
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My "Blue Lives Matter" with bluebird boxes and pictures from successful nesting last summer encouraging customer to buy bluebird nest boxes.
The event was from 10-3. all I sold was one $50 RO Lictenberg engraved slab. The man saw it last week and had thought about it all week so came back today to buy one then had to decide if he wanted one or two.
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It was one of these. I had already made 2 of them into benches.
Then when I went to load up to go home I moved all my stuff outside near the road till I could back up and load up. While I was doing that the next door neighbor looked down from his 2nd story window and came down and bought this ash bench, one I made the week before last to bring to this show.
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Another lady came by and told me she had won a similar bench I had donated to a local charity for some sort of reverse auction as a fund raising tool. The member who picked it up said they almost had a fight between a couple of the winners as to which one got the bench as evidently it was well received and liked. That was a good cause and I am glad they were happy with it. They will come get another next year I suspect.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 05, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
I packed up last night and went to our local town sponsored Small Business Christmas event. This time I was assigned a couple of spots (One for me an done for my photographer wife) in our old middle school gym. The school has been condemned for mold and leaks and classes this year are being held on a rotating basis at the HS. Anyway I had the 2 spots closest to the loading door which pleased me greatly.
Hey Howard, care to finish that post? Don't leave us hanging! Those of us who are living vicariously through you and your ability to actually do in-person shows NEED to know how it went.
That post was pretty cruel. I thought we were friends? Tell us you are 'out there' then don't tell us how it went. Geez man!
Tom,
Sorry I fat fingered the post and was adding as you jumped on me. :D See previous post again. ;D
OK, OK, You are forgiven, but just know that some of us envy your ability to 'get out' and do it. We (I) hang on any news of such events. Sorry it wasn't a blow out for you, but the sales you did grab didn't hurt. You did not mention how the wife's photos did, curious about those too, she does nice work and has a really great eye (probably two).
What was your traffic like compared to 'normal' events like this? I suspect we (the country in general) are heading into tighter restrictions as the winter arrives. In spite of that, and inspired by how your setups look, I am finding myself inclined to whack out a bunch of benches this winter to have ready if things ever open back up.
I wonder what it would cost to ship one of them there 'Lictenberg' slabs up this way? 50 bucks seems cheap for the slab itself. Nobody I know of around here does that. Might be nice to add to the stable.
Tom,
Turnout was very light. We had several no-show vendors and I assume it affected the customers too. yesterday was a dreary cold rainy/snow day and that hurt us a lot. The venue was free to us so I can't complain about that. We all, including customers, had to reman masked at all times and the town had an employee at the front door tightly controlling access. They determined the maximum safe number based on the size of the area and such and the gatekeeper gave each visitor a special pencil. They had one pencil for each authorized visitor. When finished the visitor returned the pencil which was disinfected to give to the next visitor. I don't think they ever reach much over half capacity.
Most everybody that came by looked at her photos and all commented on one or more they liked but no buyers. They ranged from $7/each for the 4X6 pictures in the white or black carboard sleeves she buys for that up to $75 or more for the big ones (13X19 I think). Those are fair prices for the ink and paper and matting and foam she uses but people just don't have it or don't want to spend it on photos around here.
This is a depressed market for anything like this and we need to be in a big city like Charlotte or Atlanta or such to attract the kind of customers who can/will pay what you need to get for the work. I keep telling folks if I am going to give it away I will give it to a friend or charity of my choice - not to an annoying stranger who will leave thinking he just put something over on me.
Most of the crowd stopped and commented on the Lichtenberg engraved pieces but either did not have the money or space to put them. It is quite common here and when I go to flea markets in the summer I always encounter other people who do them. I am surprised they are not real common in your area too. I do know that they can be very dangerous with people getting electrocuted and killed every year by not following the proper procedures. I had never seen anyone selling the kits but just checked and Amazon list several including one with a Neon sign transformer and I saw prices from $40 -$70 or so. They said they were UL rated. Most people here just make their own and that may be the problem,
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This is a picture frame I got from my vendor at the last flea market I attended. Seems to be designed for about an 8X10 photo. Not super workmanship but pretty decent. Joined by fluted staples from what I see. Not real sure about the wood - may be some basswood he got from me earlier.
Well I can see myself giving that stuff a try, but I have to stay focused on what I CAN do for now, then spread out a little and try new stuff. I like the way it looks and that picture frame is really nice, assembly work aside. ;D Corrugated nails are not on my supply shelf.
I am SO looking forward to when things open up more. Hopefully the spring will bring a new dawn for us all.
Tom,
I should add another not uncommon procedure here is for people to Lichtenberg engrave a piece and go back and fill it with colored epoxy sort of like making a river table. The colored epoxy enhances the figure and makes it really stand out. Not only am I not a Lichtenberg engraver you know I am an epoxy novice.
We can fix that!
Looks like Lichtenberg has claimed another victim.
Woman electrocuted by homemade etching machine | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/123619527/woman-electrocuted-by-homemade-etching-machine)
The article mentions pyrography, but that's pretty safe, and a done with a commercial stick similarto a soldering iron, and has about the same low ever of risk.
"home made wood burning equipment " sounds more like a neon sign transformer.
A UL sticker on those doesn't make them safe, just electrically compliant. The home made probes and the damp wood you are prodding with them as most certainly NOT included in the certification, especially not for "x" thousands of volts. Neon signs run on between 2 and 15 thousand volts.
I've done enough electrical and and electronic work to keep clear of voltages like that....
Ian,
Thanks for posting. I am not sure what the difference between Pyrography and Lichtenburg but the design shown on the article you posted seemed to be a controlled burn where as Lichtenberg just follows the point of lowest resistance in the wood so that no two pieces will ever look the same. Your point about the risk is the very reason so far that I have avoided it and contract my Lichtenberg engraving out to the man who first solicited me as a client for it. He does good work and likes to do it and I am happy not doing it so it has worked well for both of us so far.
We met a young college student at a local Bible college whose family has a woodworking business in Wyoming and I showed him some here and asked if they did any and he said no because their insurance listed it as high risk and would not cover them if they did any.
I think pyrography is old fashioned wood burning. I think I got my first one when I was 4 or 5 for Christmas. burned myself a time or two, but survived.
I think the reporter in the article has confused the 2. Pyrograhpy is using a hot iron, and the main danger is picking up the wrong end, and burning your finger.
Police say she was "burning" patterns into wood with some home made equipment and got electrocuted, and the person that found her received a non-lethal shock. That says "playing with high voltage" to me.
I've added small woodburnings to some items I've made. One was small narrow drawers on a jewelry box, end table drawer too, did tiny dogwood blossoms in the corners. I also did the same on some picture frames with flower motifs. Those picture frames are very artsy indeed. never heard of the lichtenberg thing?
I'll share one woodburning media I ran onto some years ago. We had been fishing one summer in Quebec and I toted home some larger pieces of birch bark peeled from a dead log on the ground. I tacked a piece I'd softened to a scrap of poplar board then wood burned on the inner tan bark an owl on a branch. The inner bark has a neat tan color and burns very easily to a dark brown line. I suspect but never tried that on the inner bark of more southern species-yellow poplar comes to mind?
FWIW, I use my woodburning pen to place my monogram/initials on all my wood working items. I usually include the year made underneath both small and not too conspicuous. I had the neat, memorable art teacher in the 7th grade who really turned me onto art! One project was to each develop our own monogram to use for our work. Stuck with me since the mid-1950's! Some teachers are really worth their weight!
I learned a very long time ago the real money in crafted wood was only found closer to urban areas like the huge Philly craft show, etc.. There are exceptions in the web world we live in now. There are also craft shows done rurally that pull the money people out to the show. AR has several big ones. Rocky Mtns, higher mtn areas in NC, TN, VA, GA- they get the summer money with craft shows in smaller towns. In my depressed area there is very little market (next to zero money here for crafts!) for items costing more than pocket money. I did best with cutting boards, treenware and other cheaper items, like stools, kids rocking horses. The fees to display now preclude making money some places
Quote from: kantuckid on December 07, 2020, 07:32:08 AM
I learned a very long time ago the real money in crafted wood was only found closer to urban areas like the huge Philly craft show, etc.. There are exceptions in the web world we live in now. There are also craft shows done rurally that pull the money people out to the show. AR has several big ones. Rocky Mtns, higher mtn areas in NC, TN, VA, GA- they get the summer money with craft shows in smaller towns. In my depressed area there is very little market (next to zero money here for crafts!) for items costing more than pocket money. I did best with cutting boards, treenware and other cheaper items, like stools, kids rocking horses. The fees to display now preclude making money some places
I believe you are spot on correct here. The only possible exceptions being those small town fairs, founders days, and such which attract urban folks into the area for a 'day in the country'. They buy stuff because it looks woodsy, or cute, or different, or whatever. Seems that the local folks who buy stuff but the things that 'have a purpose' like cutting boards, book shelves, kids toys that will last. If you go into somebody's home and admire something they can usually tell you where they got it and any story that goes with it. I have noticed if something is made by local skill the owner is quick to say "I got the from Old Bill, he makes those and I asked him if he would make one for me too." or something to that effect.
Yes a lot of these 'craft shows' are money makers for the sponsors by charging crazy money from the vendors, or even, in some cases a percentage of their sales. WHen my wife did the county fair across the river, they charged her something around $1,500 for the 10x20 booth space, then added a fee for garbage handling that was not small, then offered Wifi service for another fee (if she wanted to take credit cards), and THEN made her buy tickets for all her helpers to enter the fair each day. The fees kept rising every year. I saw what she was making, how hard she was working even with my help for setup and take down, and the money she made just was not worth it. She usually didn't hit break even until the 3rd day of the fair, working from 9am to 11pm every day.
I am hoping to cherry pick one or more of the 'right sized' shows to do to get my feet wet. These are shows or markets I have been to with a flat fee that is reasonable, easy load/unload and some kind of access to a bathroom. (Some of these places don't put any thought into that and the closest is 300 yards away, I can't do a 10 hour day without peeing, sorry.) These shows will have a relaxed atmosphere and attract a lot of weekenders and tourists because those are my buyers. Local folks that buy from a guy like me usually like to get something made for them, and these shows are a good spot to find them also.
Right now I am working on a website (it's like learning a new and frustrating trade) and that will give folks who see my stuff a way to refer others to go to the site and maybe give me a call about something they would like. At least, that is the plan for now.
The overhead to sell at a show far gone from home had become too much other than for advertising value back before AG invented the web. Now the web is the serious place to sell stuff with the looming issue for wood craftspeople is size of the item.
Another serious obstacle is that few really know what's involved with a handmade item as hands on education, art, etc. has gone bye bye from our schools. DIY is real but if they didn't have you tube many would be hurting these days of injected plastic everything.
My DIL's want everything to have paint on it... ::) ::) ::)
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) , I think you are spot on about your description of the market for many of these crafts. I say the same for my benches where I really need to go to the big cities to get what they are worth. When I go to flea markets I always hope it is a big city type visiting relatives and come out looking for local finds. Mostly for me I talk and give out business cards and pick up a few mobile sawing jobs or maybe someone will come see me after for a fireplace mantel or big LE slab for some project they are working on. One thing I have learned is I will no longer make benches over about 3' long unless a special order. People can get the small ones in their SUVs or such.
I signed up for an event at at State Park (Twin Falls) 50 miles away for September where they have lumberjack days on Saturday and Bluegrass Festival Sunday which draws the kind of customers I am looking for but they cancelled it for the virus this year. My deposit/application fee is still on deposit so I am promised a spot next year. I will know to stock up on the smaller items like bluebird boxes, crates, and small benches. Maybe by then I will have perfected 3 legged stools. I am still not sure I will be brave enough to try Docs 1 legged stool. Maybe I will bring my remaining "Acrobat" supply.
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There is a town, Hillsville VA, about 90 miles away who do a huge flea market Memorial Day and Labor Day. I think the minimum spot license for the weekend event starts at about $35 and just go up from there. The town makes an absolute fortune on it and they draw vendors from as far as Alabama and maybe further. I have gone down with my son to the gun shows and he buys and sells but does not set up a booth. Everybody in town sells spaces or parking spots and such. The residents on the approaches have picked up on this and have their own yard sales and such and you can often find better bargains outside of the town.
Mt Airy NC is only about 15 miles further down the road and I think for years they have been actively cultivating a name as a antique capital/center. There are many old stores now that buy and sell old tools and furniture and crafts. Customers drive down highway 52 and browse these different places. The more of these places in a small area the bigger the attraction - kind of like the difference between a yard sale and a flea market/swap meet.
My wife still does one show that is her all time remaining best and it is only about 10 miles away. She gets my daughter or SIL or me to help with setup and load out, it takes her a day and a half for S/U and a few hours for load out. That show is an outdoor 'Garlic Festival' (I don't know why) and there are (a guess) about 200 vendors with crafts, food, and other stuff. Everybody has to have something garlic related for sale. That show brings in many tours busses with folks from NYC, Westchester County, CT and other places. Weather plays a factor and there are bad years. Folks drive down from Albany and many other places. I think they get 10,000 folks a day on a good day. That show does cost, but it almost always pays off. I think she's had one bad year in 15 or so. They don't come when it's nasty or rainy.
For me, right now, I will just work on the Internet thing and get that going as another tool because it is inexpensive and I have to watch every penny until I can justify more. By the time that happens I think I will know better what basket to put my eggs in. There is also a local farmer's/flea market in Woodstock I may try, they did open this year on a shorter schedule, and I went once to look it over. Gave my card to one of the woodcarvers there. It is packed with city people as is the town so I avoid the area on the weekends and weekdays during the day in the spring/summer/fall. Next year I will likely try a couple of Saturdays and feel it out. I hope to build inventory through the winter. My wife keeps pushing me to make these little knick-knacks, but I really don't want to be "The birdhouse guy" because there are already too many of them at craft shows. If I do make small stuff, it will be things nobody else sells....yet.
Tom,
That niche thing is a pain trying to figure out. And when you do find it there is a good chance others will come along and steal your idea. I often have people taking pictures of my benches no doubt thinking they will go home and make them because obviously it is a simple task of just sanding down a board, slapping some shelac on it, boring 4 holes and rounding off the tenons (They never really think that part through very well), hammering them in and sawing the legs all off the same height if they did not already figure that by just cutting them all the same length to start then that angle thing jumps up and bites them in the butt. The smart one have a wife who when the husband says "Oh, I can build that." she replies "I have been after you for four years to make one for mud room and you haven't done it yet. I want that one." and the conversation is over. :D
My bird boxes were because I built them for my use and they worked so I can include pictures. I am pushing them as my "Blue Lives Matter" campaign. I guess I could push them and "Organic, All Natural, no artificial ingredients added" and make people think, maybe correctly, the simple unpainted ones work better than the fancy painted and highly decorative ones. They are a good use for your scrap material as are crates and children's building blocks. If you make up crates then you can fill them with blocks and cubes and cut-off rounds and pegs and such and let the toddlers be creative. You could paint them and put letters and numbers on them for educational purposes. You can make wooden cubes, paint them then add the dots and sell for yard dice.
At least these are the primitive things I can make. With your skill you can chase the high end furniture and art market with epoxy river table designs and such.
Yeah, 'experts' are very common at shows. ;D My wife sees them all the time. The ones that are annoying are those that ask in great detail how she made something, but don't buy anything. She has given up 'sharing with non customers'.
I know I will have to make a bunch of less expensive items, hopefully small, and it's not a 'low end/high end' thing, its just that for the work that goes in, I would like to pull out a few more bucks. You never really make your money back on your time with these things.
Yeah, I try to use all the scraps I can. Making scrap is one of my skills! :D
something small and crafty, that people will buy to remember the trip, but not spend fifty bucks. bottle openers, ect. i will try to find a gag gift puzzle I got one time. takes 2 blocks of wood and some ribbon. get one old lady to buy one and the line will form.
Small stuff I've sold: Weed pots (no, not the "weed" you know so well :D) are my all time best seller of small stuff! Those are lather turned wooden vases which my Wife would help them fill with dried flowers, some wild ones, some bulk bought, no plastic fake crap! either, for an extra fee.
FWIW, I tried growing my own drying flowers and never had much luck-maybe the wrong climate huh?
Some of mine were unique as turned from old wormy Chestnut poles found dead in the woods or chestnut fence posts. Others were smallish and the cutoff from longer turnings .
Wood bowls are tough to make money on except where there IS!!! real money near an urban professional group or retired money.
Wooden games- google "9 men Morris" a small wooden board game dates from long ago. For that matter google "old wooden board games" there are many others-one I made but forget the name came from our visit to the old French fort out side Quebec City, Quebec-the restored site. It was sitting in the French officers barroom on a table. Wooden small pegs are sold on the web. Cribbage boards used to sell-now I don't know?
Stools: I've sold a jillion of those, 3 legs and 4.
Cutting boards, Lots! Rectangles w/handles, squares with little peg-legs, shaped like the state of KY, scraps of ripped wood contrast colors on edge.
Treenware sells OK but you cannot make a profit handcarving spoons (maybe only to occupy time when retired) so gotta figure out a faster way for sales to count.
I make a childs rocker with a hickory bark bottom and same basic design as my adult Appalachian style rockers. They are pricy enough that only those locals with some pocket money will buy them, not a volume item in Appalachian craft shows for certain.
Morgan Co., KY has an annual Sorghum Festival-one year I traded my wood lathe demo for a free sales spot. I was next to the mule driven sorghum mill FWIW-maybe a sign of me with my kindred peoples...
Candelabra: I
t comes from the Stanton Woodcrafts factory I've mentioned before. It uses 5 small pieces of wood bandsawed curved pieces and one short sq piece in the center-I made a jig to drill the corved pieces for candle base. One board of 5/4 lumber makes a bunch of them as the curve cuts are nested- they do sell well too.
Book ends: Two small rectangles of wood about 1 1/4" thick with two slots milled into the base area of each with round slot ends about 4-5" apart. The two book base pieces are slim sticks of same wood, about 1 1/4" wide x 5/16 to 3/8" thick that fit somewhat tightly in the milled slots-thus you can slide the bookends on the two sticks for the amount of books being held. There's one behind the monitor in front of me. great practical design of small pieces of wood easily made if one has the skill set. I have never seen either the candle holder or the book ends sold by anyone except myself and the original maker. These could be easily embellished with further design work such as woodburning.
Honestly, I could on with more stuff. Now days I sell zero- I give it too my kids and friends.
This morning I'll be back to my shop build on the walnut stereo cabinet that my AL son will put his turntable and speakers into. Yesterday I nearlly got a headache doing the measurements, etc. on the sq post legs that get the slots and other cuts too help it come together. Such is working on a prototype, one off somewhat complicated cabinet. I've changed things several times in progress while still holding the measurements for the components.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 07, 2020, 01:08:52 PM
something small and crafty, that people will buy to remember the trip, but not spend fifty bucks. bottle openers, ect. i will try to find a gag gift puzzle I got one time. takes 2 blocks of wood and some ribbon. get one old lady to buy one and the line will form.
The one with the block of wood that holds a ball bearing inside and you roll it around for removal is common small wood puzzle. I have one I bought but the lawyers may make it a no-go for sales around lids as a small 3/8" bearing ball inside.
There are books full of wooden puzzles, a few I've made. Mostly in that area I made old wooden toys as seen in the Foxfire books, etc., The toy man who climbs two strings or the toy man who sits leaning on a shelf edge are two I've made and sold.
I think wooden blocks would sell-my own GK's go to the huge cardboard box of blocks made from my scraps every time they visit! They are a favorite of each one until they age out of them.
The challenge with some puzzles is they might be more machine work than normal woodcraft skill set & some people might not have the machine either?
I finally got the forty ash legs tenons cut and we finally got it figured out .We started out with 3x3 ash legs and cut them into octagons like WVSawmiller does making sure the sides were all the same dimensions when cut in a 45 degree angle .My son liked to use the 5/8 drill better than the drill press and it only took seconds to cut each tenon .We also found out that the Forstner bit seemed to make a smoother hole in the benches .We also used a drill mounted angle plunge stand to make the mortises.Thank you for all the help
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Man, your tenons look perfect!
I have been watching along here. I think that the cone shape on that tool lead into a smoother cut. In addition, the octagonal shape evens the load out on the tool. I think I will look around for one of those cone shaped jobs, but in the meantime, I am going to try the WV octagonal design and see how that cuts with the tool I have.
Nice work.
how are they clamped. I think I see part of a vise.
@A-z farmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42480) ,
That is some good looking bench legs. I always had trouble with the Forstner bit because of the angle issues but you seem to have overcome that. very well done. I see you seem to be clamping about the middle of the leg. Are you padding the leg somehow so you don't get vise teeth marks on the legs? or do you just sand off any marks? You could wrap them in something to help protect them. I clamp very near the bottom end that will be cut off when I trim the benches on the mill. I put a piece of 3"X6" cribbing about where your vise it to help stabilize them while I am cutting the tenons.
You said 40 legs so I assume 10 benches. What is the plan for the benches?
Thanks for posting.
Doc
It is a craftsman 3 legged clamp with rubber on the jaws.My son put an anvil on each one of the vise legs to hold it from moving around from the torque of the cutting .
The Forstner bit seemed to work very good when it was in the angled drill holder which I will get a picture of .I first tried to cut the tenons with the 2 inch first like doc does but I found out it stays centered better by just starting with 1 1/2 .
The benches are for Christmas for family .Every year I have helped my dad make something from the farm for the following Christmas so we are always one year ahead.But this year my dad is not physical able to help me but he does try to give me advice .
So I have 20 more to make before next year but my dad will put his initials on these or Christmas 2021.
Thank you all
OGH,
The Octagons are very easy to make (If you keep your fingers out of the table saw :() by setting the TS blade at a 45* angle and adjusting the fence on the opposite then just slide each leg through four times. Unless you are a somewhat anal rententive retired machinist, it probably doesn't matter if all 8 faces on the finished leg are exactly the same width but if they do just keep adjusting the fence on the saw till they are perfect. :D The tenon cutter slides over the octagons almost as easily as cutting a perfectly round dowel. I doubt without some high tech measuring devices most of us would never notice the difference. Unless I get a special order from now on octagons are going to me my signature bench legs.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 10, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
OGH,
...
Unless you are a somewhat anal rententive retired machinist, it probably doesn't matter if all 8 faces on the finished leg are exactly the same width but if they do just keep adjusting the fence on the saw till they are perfect. :D
What are you implying? :D
Yeah, I am thinking the 45's balance the load, but I also think the 60° cutters also make a big difference. I would love to be able to make tenons like A-z has there and I just spent a half hour going through Lumberjack's full product line. I like the industrial version with the sight holes, stop lines, and hard stop. But I think the commercial version is just fine for what we do. If I sell a few benches, I will get that commercial 60° and either way I am going to give the octagons a try for sure.
I bought my Logman Tenon Maker Kit some years back when I was building a log bed and needed more sizes of tenons than the black ones as shown above. Given that a router bit does the cutting and very adjustable, the cuts are spot on. Amazon and others sell that kit.
Log furniture can be a real money maker. I once visited the small factory of a guy near Kalispell, MT who made log furniture and log railing for log and timberframe builders. This thread has me thinking I'll eventually make some porch and stair railings for my off-grid cabin build.
We have a good friend who retired from working here for our little town and he married a lady and they moved to Kallispell. We visited him about 6 years ago out there when our daughter went out to Glacier Nat'l Park for her wedding. These friends had a big log home with a huge larch log for a center beam. Their handrails were made of log and may well have come from that same factory you mentioned you visited out there. My Lumberjack tenon cutter came with a booklet with plans and dimensions for log beds and such. I never did anything with mine but benches.
Here is the wolfcraft drill guide that I ended up using because it was to hard to hold the bench slabs up to the tilting table drill press.It took many hours of setting the cutters on the tenon cutters to get them the right size .We ended up using a rubber tire hammer to get the legs finally seated all the way in .i made a lot of wooden wedges but my son thinks the tite bond 3 will hold it but time will tell with out any wedges .
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my mortices are blind so I either drill at and angle to the bottom with a small bit, or put a cut on the side of the tenon to let out glue, or it will act as a hydraulic piston effect and not drive in all the way.
WV Sawmiller
I have made 12 benches so far but no curved ones yet .You posted that you cut all your benches at 17 inches in height .But I have found that at least 20 inches tall is easier to get up from .I had my 90 year old aunt sit on one in the shop and she said she would not want it any shorter or she could not get up very easily.So I measured the rite leg bench legs and they are 17 inches and with a 2 and 1/2 top they measure 19:5 inches tall .I just want to cut them to the proper height and thank you for all your advice .
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My teenage boys made this for my wife for Christmas. Started on it christmas Eve and got up at 6 a.m. christmas day to finish it up. Slab was cut last spring. Only problem is she doesn't like the blue stain on the edge! I think it looks great any thoughts? This was a slab cut from butts off of our log home build.
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try wood bleach or stain if it does not have a surface finish. I think it looks great, so maybe you can just tell your wife that! :D :D :D . would hate to see it painted.
@A-z farmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42480) ,
Thanks for the suggestion. Obviously different heights would be ideal for people of different heights but I think the true measure is how comfortably they sit as you will be sitting on them longer than you will be getting up or sitting down on them. When you sit I feel your feet should be pretty near flat on the floor and not with your toes pointed down. How does 20" work for you in that respect?
Just for S&Gs I measured the height of the chairs around my kitchen table and find they are 17" to the top of the wood and maybe an inch more for the cushion.
There is nothing sacred about the height. You can advertise and sell yours as "Easy access and exit benches". :D
I made these 3 as end tables for a customer last summer and made them 20" high.
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I'm still reading through the thread here. :)
This was the only bench I've made. It has a specific purpose. ;) It either rocks from the seat, or it can be made to stay flat, by flipping the underside supports. It adjusts in height with the supports being moved up/down in pre-drilled holes. Sugar maple is the wood.
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Breaks down into a pile of sticks.
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A 'not a garden' bench. ;D
Lovely benches, I'd certainly purchases a couple for around the gardens, under shade. ;D Right now, I just use an old spruce slab flipped over, flat side up, sitting on a big larch stump. :D Like a bench as high as my lower leg and foot for comfort. A lot of what I seat are works of art. For instance, love that fungal stained seat bench, looks like roots. :)
Some gentleman-like musings, things kicking around in my mind. ;D I would suppose grain orientation of the legs makes a little difference in the wood movement in the seat when RH changes right? Across the grain radially shrinks, while tangentially it shrinks twice as much. So when orienting in the seat, orient with the radial direction of the grain of the seat? Rings on the end of the leg running lengthwise of the seat? The outsides of the seat plank tend to have more vertical ring orientation on the end grain when sawed from the log closer to the pith, so think of that leg folding lengthwise of the seat, does the end of the leg have vertical rings? I'm getting complicated maybe. ;D I'm also a firm believer that wood dries from any hole toward the depths of a piece, just as it would from a sawed edge (side grain) toward the middle of the piece. Shrinks in volume but that hole is air, not wood. ;) I doubt that the hole has no influence on the seat drying characteristics. Some would say I'm out to lunch, but my mind says it is logical. Go easy gents. :D
I find that the sweet spot for bench height is 19" to the top of the wood seat.
I suspect the 17" seating height comes from back when people were smaller? As an e.g., when I was younger and reading every baseball book ever written, the average height in the major leagues was 5'9". By the time I was in my last years as an educator I could walk the halls at that height and look up at many kids.
Furniture standards are well established and seating is typically higher than 17" for general dining chairs. The published range is 18-23". A bench is different and should be somewhat taller-IMO and they usually are.
In my orthopedic docs office all the chairs are taller than a typical doc office-> on purpose<-. This continues into the service area rooms too as those who limp in there can get in the seats easier, young or old but mostly old like me :D
I have rescued many old Appalachian handmade chairs and redone the bottoms with new hickory bark. The legs are often well worn off but seem to be around 16-17" originally. I have three in my shop now-the last three I have and all have heavy coats of multi-colored house paints and believe me when i say they are tough to strip. These orphans are last because they either had damage or too much paint to get done sooner. Posts are usually either oak or maple, rungs oak or hickory. Of course they didn't use glue either as they used dry rungs and green wood posts in all those old chairs. Most remain tight unless some fatboy liked to rock back on the back posts and try to destroy them...
I make my rocking chairs oversized on purpose height of seat and seat overall as they seem right to me that way as opposed to a "sewing rocker" made for a tiny butt.
FWIW, making chairs is waaaaay more challenging than benches! ;D
When I was fetching walnut from my stacks in December, making a sons stereo cabinet I discovered several thick planks of osage orange from Lake Perry, KS stash. I mark my wood ends with a grease crayon but this got missed somehow. Now I have enough for a couple more osage rocking chairs. I had the rung wood already and sub oak for the seats to save osage for what shows. Also have under way some candelabra made from Puerto Rican tropical wood a man gave me there from his mill. He marked it "Mocha" which google searches tell me is called by many names including Cabbage Tree. Not cabbage palm. Partridge wood-Andira Inermis for you other wood freaks out there. Also seen as Red Cabbage tree wood. Mine is brown when an aged surface but yellowish when fresh sawed on bandsaw too shapes.
Anyone who wants this pattern for a candelabra- I'll mail you a tracing with measurements if you PM me. As an eg., I was able to cut 8 main pieces easily from a board 1 1/8" thick and two small center pieces in only a couple of feet of board, ~ 5 1/2" wide. To make them you need either a vg jigsaw or a bandsaw and a drill press. Drilling 7/8" candle holes requires making a jig to hold the workpieces as odd shaped. I post a pic but never got that far here with pics...
Back to Howards benches. :D
most boys will be 2 inches taller than their dads. I have made at least one taller bench, but most of my adult benches are 16 inches. I like that I can put 4 of them side by side, and they are identical. I have a hand saw guide/jig made up for this. Maybe when I get as old as some you all, I will consider making a geriatric bench height. :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) ;)
I make benches around 17" tall, coffee table height is 19", stools are between 8 and 12". End or lamp tables can be either 20 or 24" depending on what the client wants. Bench height will vary based on how it looks also. Many of my benches, I have noticed, get used as side or display tables and not a place to sit. I do have an order for a kitchen farm table bench right now to clients spec's and they want 19" seat height, same as the chairs on the other side.
Leg shrinkage is an interesting question. I have noticed my though tenon legs seem to 'grow' up out of the seat as the bench acclimates to indoor conditions. Most clients don't seem to notice or care, but it bothers me a lot. I have two of my oldest benches back in the shop right now which I am repairing for loose legs (one on each bench, due to poor gluing during the learning curve). I am doing a 80% refinish on both of these sanding right down to wood and leveling the legs. I will be epoxying these legs in to make sure they don't move.
Very nice bench Swamp! Is that your design, or did you find that someplace? Never have seen that idea before.
Edvantage, very nice bench. Those through tenons had to be a lot of work to get them cut and lined up. I really like it.
"we" geriatrical folks like recliners, not hard benches! smiley_old_guy
My new years resolution is for $4,500 worth of new molars and some crown replacements- what I'm calling an investment in my future.
I made a bunch of EWP benches from my house rafter 3x6 cutoffs back ~ 40 years ago. They now are spread among my kids and our house as bedside tables mostly, never sat upon.
Those foam stuffed recliners will kill ya kantuckid. Not for ingesting the contents, just sitting alone will do it. I can sit in a nice rocker all day with a nice cotton stuffed seat pad under me. I can barely move after an hour in that foam furniture, the reason I never sit in one more than 15 minutes. Spend $700 of that on a nice padded rocker old man. :D
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on January 02, 2021, 08:13:41 AM
Very nice bench Swamp! Is that your design, or did you find that someplace? Never have seen that idea before.
It's not my concept, but any that I have seen that rock do not use a mortised stretcher. They have screws holding two boards to each upright. That is very weak to me, those screws can sheer off or work loose and damage the hole they are in making them worst for holding. The rocking capability is used for weaving. If I was to just make a sitting bench, I would not have it rock. This bench is very stable however, and would never throw ya or come down. But some older folks are not as strong or balanced and something rocking without hanging on can cause a fall. The bench wouldn't even fall if you grabbed it out of reflex before going down. Some folks don't have the strength to compensate. You'd only tip it if you was already on the floor and that wouldn't be easy. Just flip the seat supports and no rocking.
On height, I like my feet flat On the floor and my knees level with my hips. For me that is 20 inches and bench height. I'm 6' 4". If my knees are above my hips they starting to bother me.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 02, 2021, 08:46:49 AM
Those foam stuffed recliners will kill ya kantuckid. Not for ingesting the contents, just sitting alone will do it. I can sit in a nice rocker all day with a nice cotton stuffed seat pad under me. I can barely move after an hour in that foam furniture, the reason I never sit in one more than 15 minutes. Spend $700 of that on a nice padded rocker old man. :D
My "back report" is three pages long. Believe me when I say that I know where and how to sit. Sitting is the one activity that easily kills your back and butt. If Al Gore hadn't invented the internet my back might be better? :D Serioulsy, I do yoga, McKenzie and Pilates on my back before i go to work. I use a lumbar roll as we speak.
I seem to be holding up decently if you'll notice my age. Lucky me, mostly considering what I've worn out so far, two hips, a shoulder sewn & cabled together and knees that live on cortisone. I have a new baby fingernail coming out on my left middle finger I smashed in Nov, I'm real proud of it too!
Telling a guy that makes rockers to sit in one? I'll leave them to grandma's rockin the babies.
@trimguy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47881) , since I am 5'8" I'll stick with my 17" bench but if you come buy a couple I will throw in some 3" booster slabs you can set on top of the benches for the extra height you need. :D
I walk a least 4 miles a day in winter and a lot more in the other seasons. ;D I do know a good rocker when I sit in one. Not them $50 Amazon and Walmart whatever they are. Not worthy of the title. :D Speaking from a long line of rockers of rockers. ;D
Never saw my dad or grandfather in foam chairs in my life. Never had trouble walking either. And believe me they knew what work was. Home in bed regular every night to be up by 4:00 am for the next round. :D
Thanks @WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) . 😁
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 02, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
I walk a least 4 miles a day in winter and a lot more in the other seasons. ;D I do know a good rocker when I sit in one. Not them $50 Amazon and Walmart whatever they are. Not worthy of the title. :D Speaking from a long line of rockers of rockers. ;D
Never saw my dad or grandfather in foam chairs in my life. Never had trouble walking either. And believe me they knew what work was. Home in bed regular every night to be up by 4:00 am for the next round. :D
Do you sleep on an army cot or the floor? :D
We had a car dealer that called themselves the hard chairs dealer cause they sold low, no frills. Maybe some of yer kinfolk up there in NB?
No, I have a nice bed. But dad would always nap on the floor after work in the evenings or Sunday afternoon, never in no foam couch I can tell ya that. I nap on a nice bed. Not them memory foam ones neither, worst invention made. My uncle and grandfather were both known to nap on the bare hard floor by the wood stove or a nice firm lounge. My grandfather made a living cutting wood in the winter months and stayed in a lean to on fir bows and a good Hudson's Bay sleeping robe. Lumber camps was luxury living. Winter is cold up here. Ever try it? :D Gramp had several fishing/hunting camps, never used one when wood cutting. The camps were not out in the middle of the cutting. It was all walking in them woods in the 20's through to the 60's. Wood floated down water in spring time. Now we got forest roads better than some of our rural community roads. :D
I think you need a little log driver's waltz to limber ya up. :D
Canada Vignettes: Log Driver's Waltz - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upsZZ2s3xv8&t=50s)
My computer desk chair, by the way, is a fiddle back arm chair with horse hair and cotton stuffing. No foam for this gringo. If ya want the good stuff, ya gotta do it yourself sometimes. You thought I was lying. ;D :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_horse-hair.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_cotton-batting.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Chair-stuffing-hair.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Upholstered_chair.jpg)
No, actually I remember seeing your relaxation chair here before. All of our dining chairs have my hickory bark bottoms except the main large table which has oak bottoms.
I'm not a couch potato, i.e. don't live in my recliner, as I suspect there are less on the FF than many web spots? I do have a heating pad sort of permanently hanging in my recliner for my evening back treatment.
I did spend yesterday in my recliner watching a DVR'ed version of KY's FB bowl game and KY's Miss State game too, otherwise at our house the boob tube doesn't come on until evening news and a very select group of TV shows we watch or netflix/amazon prime movie now & then. I was very comfy thank you :D . All foam is not the same foam!
Having sat on a motorcycle seat for many thousands of miles I prefer the saddle style ones BMW uses- that many riders say are made to cramp your family ;D
Posture, posture, exercise.
The north lumber men are IMO a similar breed to those most anywhere who actually work for a living. I was one of them then moved over to training others to work and get their hands dirty.
Foam is still foam, no matter how ya spin it. ;) But I've had really only one pickup truck with a seat you could sit in all day. It was a bench seat in S15 GMC. Never sat in a decent vehicle seat since. I've had Dodge, GMC, Toyota. Although the Tacoma feels fine when your sitting for awhile, but get out of the truck and stand tall. :D But a Camry seat is murder. :D Killer stuff'n, can't convince me otherwise.
And nope, pillows ain't foam neither, 400 thread count cotton covering. I don't want feathers in my mouth. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/feather-pillow.jpg)
kantuckid,
Do you have picture of the hickory bark bottom?
Swamp donkey,
Do you have plans for the rocking bench you built?
Not handy at FF pics, but if you google "hickory bark bottom chair" and google images will show you a page full of them! Most people use the same or similar weave. I've done two different weaves both nearly the same. The old hillbillys called it a "tweed" meaning the weave pattern. I can say much more about the process itself. One key word is that it's one hell of a lot of work! The bottoms are a bit tedious but peeling an entire tree of it's outer bark then cutting that into strips is seriously hard work. The season is a very short window too! Must be done on the right kind of hickory at full sap not before or after or much work is down the drain. The bark, once prepped is usable from the rolls for years to come. I've done some bark back rockers, some ladder backs. Bark is faster if you don't count getting the bark.
Old country stores in eastern KY used to keep rolls of bark for sale hanging from the ceilings. Doubt you'll ever find it for sale as too much work!
Yes, I've made tall stools, benches and chairs with bark. I have never done corn shuck bottoms but do know how. Amazingly they last a very long time. I've done the paper fake grass bottoms and one fine rattan woven chair and one 1/2 rattan bottom. We have an antique rocker, fine woven rattan called caned in my LR that I found along the highway years ago where it had fallen from someone's PU truck and busted up. I repaired it and tried my hand at the weaving, often blind people do it. It sits good too. I saw that exact same chair later in the Mississippi river Museum in Memphis, TN. The display has a wax figure of Mark Twain sitting in "my" chair. :D It's a factory made chair.
Quote from: samandothers on January 03, 2021, 09:23:39 AM
Swamp donkey,
Do you have plans for the rocking bench you built?
Not really, and it has been awhile. It was mainly just out of my head by looking at what others have done and making my own adjustments to what I had seen.
Dimensions over around here in this thread.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=54311.msg806129#msg806129
Archie and the chair. :D
Archie Loses His Favorite Chair - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grUmDyHDS5c)
I virtually never have a published pattern. I work from standard dimensions I get from a large furniture size reference chart i got years ago at the huge Hickory, NC Furniture Mart, also pictures. I keep a file cabinet full of the plans I draw up plus templates of shapes for various items. Honestly if I depended on finding a plan for most of what I've made it would never get done. They can be a way to learn to make things though. magazines such as Fine Woodworking have included high level plans and basic items over the years.
Being trained in drafting from JR high three years one semester each year then in apprenticeship again is a great help to drawing a working sketch. When I did a one off stereo cabinet in Dec, I did many working sketches after the first sketch that included the turntable measurements and general likes of the son who wanted it. He sent me pics fro all over Europe and the USA that had esthetics he both liked and disliked. the final result was part me and part his thing even he doesn't know wood. Things like leg tapers, what species wood, type of top all came into play.
I made a baby bed that swings many years ago with a very similar frame to the rocking bench frame seen here. The bed was more a classical old time pattern with many turned spindles not lawyer proof in todays world.
I've made some similar to "Jimmy Carter porch swings"-he drew them up on an airplane napkin and they were in FW magazine.
I got fixated on an Irish garden bench when we were traveling there-very common in the UK. I took several pics and sort of melded them together into the one on our front porch. I've spent many hours in the Smithsonian Museum looking at old wood furniture and before the web I bought lots of furniture making books i learned from. Most patterns out there are really basic stuff for newbies.
My wifes corner cabinet is from me looking at pictures online of a museum in NJ where the original sits as donated by Barbara Streisand. They don't allow measuring their items! That in spite of books full of that furniture style with measured drawings. I even volunteered to measure and draw it for them to sell, and raise funds but could not get past the secretary on the phone.
I've used the Sturbridge catalog for ideas too, also visits to high end furniture stores. My dining room Wormy Chestnut table w/breadboard ends came from FW Magazine idea for hidden wood movement allowances.
Plans take some serious effort and even with the web they just don't fall into ones lap it seems. I offered some free yesterday, I think, no takers.
BTW, that bench has a lot of hours on it and continue to accumulate. :)
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) ,
Did you ever put a hide bottom in a chair? My grandfather had an old ladderback straight chair with a cowhide bottom and my old mentor used to do them up with goat hides. I gave him an otter hide one time he put in one which made a real pretty bottom.
Nope. The old timers used rope, string, leather you name it if they had it. What they often lacked was cash. You see lots of Mexican chairs with hides from cows. A very common, older chair bottom is pressed paper with a design in it. Still sold as an upholstery supply item as is the "reed" made of twisted paper.
The Tell City, IN chairs had bark bottoms from the factory. You've probably seen them on porches in the southern states. Made from green hickory saplings they grew and bent while growing in huge fields full of saplings along the Ohio river. Also made by Appalachian chair makers and sold along the road. My wifes mamaw had one that somebody in the family pulled off her porch and we've never figured out who got it! A hoop back porch rocker.
Sheepskin on my bench. ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/sheepskin-2021.jpg)
Donkey,
How did you attach the sheep skin? Is it tacked on the bottom or laced? Now the hard question - why did you put a sheepskin on a bench? :D
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 15, 2021, 02:38:33 PM
Donkey,
How did you attach the sheep skin? Is it tacked on the bottom or laced? Now the hard question - why did you put a sheepskin on a bench? :D
It is secured with #6 seine twine from my yarn stash.
A good weaving bench always has a sheep skin, isn't that enough? :D Lots of folks use them. :) Like I said earlier, no foam for me. ;D
You should put a nice merino 'medical' one on the back of your rocker. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/sheepskin-rocker.jpg)
@SwampDonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1009) are you sure that is not fiberglass insulation, R13? :D :D :D itchy! 8) :o 8) :o :)
Oh my heavens no, nice and soft, no itch. Nice merino, very dense. :)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 15, 2021, 02:38:33 PM
Donkey,
Now the hard question - why did you put a sheepskin on a bench? :D
I thinkk the harder questions is - How did you get the sheep to cooperate? ;D
Sheepskin has been used as a cushion for longer than swampdonkey's been around-most likely for millenia. I think it was once used for wheelchairs?
I've used a sheepskin from www.Alaskanleather. com for many years riding motorcycles. Very common. The first skin I used I bought from a leather supplier on the cheap back years ago when I was riding as now. It looked similar to the one above, fur wise. The one I bought from the Alaska guys is far more supportive, the fur is extremely tight and "wiry" is the word I'll choose to say it doesn't mash down, even after thousands of miles. I only use it on long tours. FWIW, air cushions, gel pads and beads are also used. many swear by the beads but I like my sheepskin well enough to stay with it.
Attachments via velcro from inner side of skin to the MC. Yoy can even switch them between machines by placing velcro on each MC.
My bench one is 2-1/2" long fur. The medical one on the rocker is very dense and shorter.
My MC seat pad is extremely dense as when pressed down with your hand or butt and remains so after 10-12 hours on a MC seat-not something I do so much lately.
I gave my first tried skin, at a homemade seat pad, to my Burlingame, Kansas cousin who made handmade knives from farm implement steel, intricate walking canes, (what I'll call pseudo Indian style various items, given he wasn't indigenous at all) and various leather items such as scabbards , etc.. Sadly for me, he died from Covid recently.
I've never known if the sheepskin fur differences derive from processing or the sheep's variety and perhaps also weather factors?
No expert here by a long shot, but probably race of sheep and climate they lived in. Mine are New Zealand and Australian sheepskins. I just know what I like. :)
Me thinks this is a "butt centric" conversation :D
What I know about sheep is centered on the extremely tiny remnants of having dissected their eyes and brain in 1962 at Washburn U. Anatomy class in KS.
My only other sheep thing, is that I cannot stand meat from anything that goes BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ;D I don't even like it BBQ'ed.
But I do really like Smartwool socks if thats any concession to the sheep out their?
Howards benches have been left in sheep dust?
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) if you do not like to eat the meat, how is it that you prepare the socks? are they high in fiber :o :D :D :D
My Son's got me Bomba socks for Christmas- the latest, greatest, best thing in socks they say. I've now worn them all day at the mill, etc. and they are VG but truth be known Smartwool socks have more bounce at the end of the day. I defy anyone to try eating either one of them no matter what way their cooked! :D
Lamb meat story" Once, some 30 years ago, I was at a western KY tech school in Owensboro, KY (it along the Ohio River near the big muddy confluence) and we ate dinner at the world famous, Moonlight BBQ restaurant there. They are know for BBQ and Carrot Cake it seems. I thought, lets see if I can actually like a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH after it's been BBQ'ed, or not. Or not prevailed as it still had that twangy taste I find present in all BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH meats, deer qualifies for me too.
When I worked for the Ohse family's meat packing company, old Fred Ohse kept a dressed out goat carcass hanging in the cold storage where we shipped out our products. It looked sort of like a stunted deer who died last year then hung there on display. He wanted them to hang awhile. left to me they have hung until the cows come home.
I'll add this on socks- I sure wish we'd had today's socks, back when I was an athlete! They truly, truly sucked back in the day. I suspect the homeless folks have better socks than the pro ball players had back then. I've known some people who needed their socks boiled to kill the stink.
Well, I neglected to get a picture because I was too busy building the bench with the customer watching/helping. I have a repeat customer whose daughter is getting married this weekend I think and he wanted to take her 2 of my benches and have all the guests sign them so he wanted them unfinished. He is going to put poly or epoxy on later. I warned him to test to be sure his finish did not dissolve the ink. The only unfinished benches I have in stock are ash.
I told him he could pick the LE slab and we could make a bench from it. I brought out 5-6 benches of different sizes and types of woods to show them what was available and what they would look like when finished.
The customer looked, took some photos and called his daughter and she picked a big, 5' long ash bench and she decided she wanted one light (ash) and one dark (walnut). The customer selected a 4' LE 8/4 walnut piece with a big knob on one end. I pulled an 8' 9/4 square stock walnut piece I'd cut for legs off the drying rack, cut it into 2' pieces, ran them through the planer, knocked the corners off on my table saw and put them in a vise then cut the tenons on them. I grabbed my 1-1/2" auger bit and we drilled the mortises, turned the bench over, glued and drove the legs on, sawed off the excess length with my Japanese pull saw then put it on the mill, clamped it good and sawed the legs at 17". All that took about 30-35 minutes and he left with a custom built bench from the wood he had selected. He will sand the tops of them both smooth over the next day or two but taking care to leave the EAB tracks on the edges and legs of the ash bench.
He saw my walnut cookies and was interested in buying some then I took a tip from the MM and told him I'd loan them to him and he can bring them back after the wedding so he was happy with that. He asked what if his daughter wanted to keep a couple. I told him he could pay for them later (Actually I'll likely just tell him to tell her they are a wedding gift).
It was fun and reminds me what I like about this business.
You just made me smile, my friend. 8)
Well that just made my good day even that much better. :)
I had the selection of benches out so he could see different woods but also for sizes as they ranged from 30" to 5' long. He had not mentioned what kind of wood or sizes he wanted and I really don't think he knew the differences or had decided.
I had all the tools out except the planer and tablesaw which were seconds away from pulling out and setting up anyway. Getting the customer to help provided company and I am a pretty social guy most of the time and showed him the process but more important he can now tell his daughter every time he sees the bench "I helped build that."
I had never thought about benches as wedding gifts or having them signed but it is different. Maybe the rest of you can think of many of your woodworking projects for similar uses.
Well, I got inspired by this thread and ordered a Lumberjack Tools 1" 1.5" and 2" mortise and tenon set.
My first two tries at benches have been a learning experience, but was a lot of fun.
The first one below I just used 3x3 legs of tamarack which were laying nearby from another project, which I semi-rounded the end with a draw knife so the tenon cutter would get started. I used our larger 1/2 drill, but it was a bear to hold on and would catch. Seemed to fast for the job, but it came together in the end. As this was just a test, I sawed up a small oak that had fallen down across the trail to the lake which had to be removed anyway. My dad was applying some timber oil and the bench slipped on one of the flips, dropped down on a leg and cracked the bench. So I did a quick and dirty bowtie which seemed to stabilize it well enough once it was re-glued and refinished. Sometimes you have to go with the beautiful oops path in life ;) Not likely a professional grade fix, but seemed to work. Its a little higher sitting then typical so mom can get on and off easier.
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After fighting the drill on the first one, I looked over the Lumberjack Tools site and ordered the Milwaukee Model 1660-6 they recommended. A 450 RPM, single speed with a extra pipe handle on it. It's a monster and works so much better! Highly recommend this drill for anyone doing this style mortice and tenon.
I also ordered some bench back risers from Rite Leg as I wanted a bench with a back for the deck on the next one and decided to use some of the smaller limbs for legs. The result turned out ok for a first try. The seat part is a little narrow and should be wider for comfort, also the seems as if the bench back risers are designed for a sawn edge on the back rather than a live edge. I had to drill a couple new holes as the the back predrilled hoes didn't extend far enough in to reach solid wood. I should of looked at the online pictures a little closer, so that is on me, but seems to work well enough with a little tweaking.
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I also cut the legs on the saw mill flipped upside down before back was added, at at 22" to make it easer to get down and up for a few of our older guests ;D
Last was to position it on the deck and attached a couple leg screws up though the crack in the decking to two of the legs. Even though it is very heavy, it would slide a bit on the composite decking, and couldn't have grandpa and grandmas tipping over the edges!
Thank you to all who shared their experience prior as it gave me a huge jump on the learning curve!! It was fun first couple tries and learned a some more via trial and error, which hopefully will keep the next few iterations improving. 8)
Nicely done! I wish my first tries came out half that good, but then You could learn from some of my errors. :D :D :D :D
I do note that your legs are inbound from the outside ends quite a bit, I wonder if you have a tipping issue if somebody sits on the very end with no 'ballast' in the center area? Something you may want to look at down the road. Designs choices on these are as wide open as they can get though, as you know. I like the back fitting up on yours. I guess fitting the back the right distance from where the flesh hots the seat has a lot to do with how comfortable it is to sit on, but at some point you have to make a decision. ;D There is an ergonomic model out there somewhere that may help with that. I should go look. It gives 'human' dimensions for an 80 percentile adult male and/or female. I did note you tied this one down, so I guess that makes the tipping issue a moot point.
That bowtie is a lot of work, I just soak epoxy into those cracks, then sand, it does a very solid job especially on clean cracks (no rot).
With the tenon tool, yeah it has always been rough for me too, so I use tthe tool as best I can, then hit them on the belt sander to smooth them off and make them rounder, then use the forstener bit that is a tiny bit smaller and with a hole template (sample block) I finish sand for a good fit, but I don't wedge mine. We have already beat the wedge/no-wedge issue to death as you read above and elsewhere. :D :) I sometimes epoxy in my legs, and sometimes glue depending on which way the wind blows through my head that day. ;D
Again, nicely done.
I like it! As I read you made it 22" tall which I feel is a bit high for a bench but you mention it is for older users. If you later decide it is too tall you can always take the back off, put it back on the mill and recut them to a lower height. I sometimes make end tables for customers with the same design and I cut them to be 20" tall. I use 17" as a standard bench height and feel that is a comfortable height to rest my feed on the ground.
As to the legs I have tried round, square, quarter round, and now octagon. From now on unless it is a special order I'll make the legs out of 2-1/4" square stock that I have run through a table saw with the blade set at a 45* to just knock the corners off. It is not a true octagon but close enough. As long as I can keep my fingers out of the table saw that system works well. The octagon legs fit into the tenon cutter almost as easily as round stock and no need to use a drawknife to round it off like I used to do and as you describe.
I don't cut the slots for wedges but if the leg needs tightening I drive a steel sledgehammer wedge in. I like the positioning of your wedges. I feel that works better. I have turned then 90* so they run in line with the grain of the wood in the bench top and I have some split the wood to the end of the bench. I think perpendicular to the bench is a better, safer option. I have not tried it yet but I feel if you don't like to see the steel wedges you can countersink them 1/4" and fill the top with wood putty or make your own from wood glue and sawdust from the sander.
I like the bowtie and am envious as I don't know how to do them. If you want to come show me how you are welcome to come down and I have couple of benches in stock we can use for demo models.
I may have to try the rite legs back. I had a customer who bought 2 benches from me Saturday but she mentioned she had thought about ones with a back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/Lichtenberg_red_oak~4.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1627317438)
I took these 4 RO 4' slabs to my friend to Lichtenburg engrave them using electric probes and high voltage. I made 2 into benches and they were the ones the lady bought from me at a Flea Market Saturday. She saw them, talked a while, took my card, left then called a few minutes later to make sure I was still there. She had gone home to get more money. I sanded another 6' RO slab smooth that afternoon, cut them to 30" and 36" and took them to my friend yesterday to engrave. I'll pick them up next week. If you want to Lictenburg engrave your wood be sure not to add any finish because it retards the current flow from the electric probes. I usually just rub mine down with pure tung oil. I'll oil them after he finishes them then add the legs and cut them to length.
Keep up the good work and we'll look forward to more pictures.
Hey, just a plug here Howard. If you call Rite Leg and explain what you do, they will be happy to send you some catalog brochures for you to show/give to clients. It helps with selection and planning. Tammy ( @Tam-i-am (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1461) ) and the rest of the fine folks there have be very kind and helpful to me. I have a client coming this afternoon and I am hoping I can talk them into some of those legs, possibly wall brackets. They are bringing their own legacy slab for me to finish.
Tom,
That's a great idea. I'll send her a PM and see about getting some of those brochures. Maybe they can be my sponsor and I can even be their "test pilot" for new ideas and new designs. Kind of like these bass fishermen you get the lure and boat makers and such to send them free lures and equipment to try out.
Tom and @Lostinmn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49930) ,
I did write Tami and one thought if I do go to add a back to any of my benches like Lost did I would want to increase the angle at the back to compensate for the extra weight back there and the expectation people will be leaning back in it instead of just sitting up straight. Leg angles are an issue. Too little angle and the bench will fall over backwards and too much angle and people will trip over the legs sticking out from under the bench. Of course the width of the bench is a big factor too. I have benches that are barely 6" wide and some 18"-20" wide.
Howard, you are very correct, the geometry and physics become critical points when you add a back and you have to get it 'right'. I think that's why we have mostly avoided it until that one day when we have thought it over enough and say 'what the heck, lets give it a try'. :D I know that 'backward tip thing' trips me up every time when I try to think it through.
I hope I am not talking out of school here, but rite leg sent me a pricelist with my price and the retail price for clients which gave me a discount. I will work either way with a custom client, either I buy the legs and fit them, or they can if they like. It was nice to get a commercial price from the fine folks at Rite Leg though. Class act, those folks.
Case in point, I had a new client here a couple of hours ago who I would say are pretty typical. They brought me their table slab. 7 and a half feet at 8/4 already planed out (not typical!) with a few remaining saw marks. We talked about what they want for finish and feel, and how long to cut it. All the questions I asked led to some blank stares because they hadn't thought about it. It was also a revelation to them that it would take 'a while' before I got it done. The woman wanted her bo' to do the job thinking it was easy. (Just slap some kind of finish on it, right?) He called me because it is wood from a legacy tree and he wanted a proper job done so it would last. When I explained to her that she had a pretty nice piece that was worth 'doing up right' and that 'doing it up right' meant stabilizing all the cracks and knot holes, several epoxy pours then sanding, trimming and fishing to her requirements, she was a little shocked. Her bo' told her this is why he wanted it done right and he lacks those skills or confidence. Then I asked questions about the usage and legs, brackets, whatever. I take a hands off attitude on this and tell them I don't care what they do, but my job is to let them know all the options so they can choose what they really want, rather than what they think they want. I gave them the rite leg catalog to take home and pointed out some of the legs I thought would suit their need (which was already different from what they came in with, which was wall brackets). I told them it matters not to me, they could buy the legs and put them on, or I could do a full job for them. I suggested that they go to the Rite leg website and look over the legs, photos, and options there. I was just trying to make sure that they were really happy with the end result. I could order, or they could order. She said 'bar height' but then indicated something a LOT lower than bar height (like 36"). That's when I suggested they sit on the bar stools they already have and take some measurements of what height they really want.
We will likely cut this slab down to 6' which will leave 1.5' on one end (focusing on a natural edge feature on the other end she wants to keep). I haven't told them yet, but I plan on cutting off that drop and making another table top out of it for an end table or high cocktail table top and I'll throw that in. It's their wood and I can do it all at the same time, so no big deal. I need to do minor crack and knot hole epoxy fills which will kill time but are no challenge and will disappear in the final finish. I did have some stuff I could show them to explain why I epoxy these defects, and they got it right away. So I sent them away with homework: How long, what kind of legs and who is doing that, how high will this be off the floor, and finish type (gloss verses semi-gloss). While they dwell on those I can start doing epoxy work.
I appreciate your feedback! Leg position was more of stood back and what looked good feel then any calculation on my part.... I think I will maybe look up some of the more standard measurements to use for baseline on future benches, no reason to reinvent the wheel! I was just in too much of a hurry to play with my new toys on this round :)
I should look up the ergonomic standards you mentioned, seems like it would be a useful baseline for guidance. I'll have to do some butt testing with how inboard the legs on are on this one. Even if these are screwed down, to much inboard could create excess stress which would be good to design out for the next try.
I did select legs with more extension and back-sweep for the rear as I figured it would need a bit more stability in that direction. It was only marginally dry when I finished it and it hasn't had a good sit test yet. I'm planning on giving it plenty of coffee drinking sit testing this coming weekend and ponder changes revealed for the next one.
I think with the oddities of live edges, I might be better off welding up and painting my own brackets. I though it would be more cost effective to buy them verses taking the time to make my own as my cabin play time is limited, but as each piece for seat and back has so much variation on edge it might be better to custom measure and make for each bench.
I think I'll do that on the next one and see how it goes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and happy bench making!!
I did select legs with more extension and back-sweep for the rear as I figured it would need a bit more stability in that direction.
That brings up a good point. Since I free-hand the tenon cutter instead of using it on a more stable and consistent platform, something like a drill press, lathe or ShopSmith or such, sometimes the tenon is not perfectly in line with the rest of the leg. I can sometimes use that to my advantage in free hand mortises where I "eyeball" the angle. I can rotate the leg in the mortise to angle it forward or backwards to achieve the desired angle. I am sure you could build a jig to drill the mortise in consistent angle if I really tried.
I am sure adding backs will add more challenges as I assume the higher up you place the back the more or less stable the bench will be.
Anyway just keep playing with them and keep posting your results, observations and lessons learned. BTW - what are you doing with your benches?
I make them for fun so I'm just making them for our use or friends/family as gifts. My play time is limited with full time work and a couple of young'uns yet. I don't think I'll out strip my demand with supply for awhile, and knowing myself I'll likely take up with some other type of project at some point too. My wife has always said she is sure I have undiagnosed ADHD ;D
Quote from: Lostinmn on July 30, 2021, 02:44:08 PM
My wife has always said she is sure I have undiagnosed ADHD ;D
For many of us, it's either that or OCD. We just learn to live with it. ;D :D
When I first started making benches they looked very nice, but unfortunately they were horribly uncomfortable to sit in. I did a little research and turns out there are specific design criteria that professional furniture designers use to make more comfortable chairs,benches,etc. I began to experiment with some of them and finally created a template that I could quickly use to make more consistently comfortable benches. I still remember my first customer that came by to pick up the bench I made for him using that template. Instantly, he noticed how naturally comfortable it was vs some of my older versions that I had scattered around my property. I still use that template today for any bench with a back, but also do a test fit up with different seat to back offsets/gaps which can make a huge difference.
Downstream,
I am constantly setting aside stuff that looks like it would be good for benches, only to chop it up later into firewood as I'm not sure how to get started. Would you be willing to share your "template(s)"?
Downstream,
I assume you are talking about the benches with backs being uncomfortable. So far I have only made simple backless benches and in all honesty they are very comfortable. I make mine with a seat height of 17".
I have made benches as narrow as approximately 6" and find that at 2" thick it still makes a very sturdy and comfortable bench. I started off making them about 4" thick but had a nice 2" slab I decided to try out and I have done that ever since as it is plenty strong and much lighter weight. I feel I need at least 2" of thickness to hold the tenon tight enough but if someone had a thinner board/slab they wanted to used they could add a thin board or piece of plywood to get the extra thickness needed.
If making long benches you can just add extra legs along the way. I see no reason I could not make a 20'+ bench if I had a need or order for one. Since I cut the legs to the correct height on my sawmill I have complete confidence they would sit square to the floor on a concrete slab or house floor. In theory I could make them much longer than the mill if needed.
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a few benches with backs for ideas
Doc,
Now for the 60 cent question - how comfortable are they? The middle one looks like the clear winner to me. My scale may be off but the last one looks like the seat is too wide to comfortably lean back against the back and the first one looks like the back is too straight up. Goldilocks says the long cedar Prairie Hills bench looks just right. ;)
Here is one of the live edge bench styles I have made along with the template for the 1-piece live edge legs. I have made and sold a number of this style. It is my favorite kind for around the firepit or a good sitting/thinking spot. Rock solid and comfortable. Very heavy so don't have to worry about the wind or an individual carrying it away. A couple of 90 degree corner stiffeners on inside of legs to seat bottom and they will stay solid even if moving them around.
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@WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) I did not sit on any of them for any length of time. the middle was my son's eagle scout project at his middle school. top and bottom were donated projects to a motorcycle club auction fund raiser. so they were all very comfortable. :) there are published angles for seat backs. but I do not remember them off the top of my head. 8) 8) 8)
Doc,
From Downstream's post it looks like 105* is the magic angle. That does look comfortable from seeing his benches. My question was largely the width of the seat especially with a back. If it is too wide it looks like it would be too hard to actually keep your legs hanging comfortably and still lean against the back. Your son seemed to have really nailed the perfect seat width and back angle on his project. :)
What's your angle @WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) :D :D :D. adding a back adds to the complexity, and I only do it for others who request it. or in the case of an auction for charity, I assume it may bring more. there is the issue of scale, and as you point out, the angle. but now in addition to just resisting gravity (keeping your butt off the ground) you also have torque when you lean back. Some kid is going to eventually stand on the bench and jump up and down.
Doc,
As I mentioned I have never added a back to a bench but it sure adds several degrees of complexity. I like the 105* angle Downstream used. I got a 30" and a 36" top back today from my friend who added the Lichtenburg engraving. They are still in the back seat of my truck but I'll get a picture of them and post it later today. I assume the Rite Leg bench back holders use the proper angle should I take the plunge and buy a set from them.
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These will be my next 2 benches - a 30" and 36" piece that I retrieved today from my friend who did the Lichtenburg wood burning/engraving on them. They have been air drying about a year. I cut them off a 6' slab and cut off 6" that was splitting on one end. I sanded the tops and cut the mortises in place before I took them to him. They are about 16" wide which is really wider than I prefer for a bench. A 12" slab makes a really nice bench. These have slight cup that could have been sanded out with enough time, sander belts and elbow grease but really it makes a nice comfortable seat so I'll leave it. The engraving darkened the pieces. I plan to put a coating of tung oil on them. Epoxy gurus sometimes fill the etching with brightly colored metallic powder which really accentuates the figure. I don't have that experience or skill.
I made 2 pair of legs for the Lichtenburg benches above but had no wood glue. I picked up some on the way home yesterday and decided to make them today.
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I laid an old moving blanket on a pair of sawhorses to protect the top while adding the legs.
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I glued and hammered in the legs with a baby sledge. Note the assorted leg lengths. All will be cut to the same angle and height on bench leg adjusting machine later in the process.
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I cut the excess length off using a Japanese pull saw. While doing this I dropped one bench and broke a leg off in the mortise. I took a short sticker and drove the top out.
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I measured the broken leg and realized it was long enough I could just cut a new tenon on it so I clamped it in the vise and reworked and reinstalled it.
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I cut the excess off. I see they are lighter and redder than the bench tops. I guess the Lichtenburg processing darkened the top. Hopefully when I apply Tung oil it will darken the ends and make them match better.
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I put the benches upside down in the bench leg adjustment machine, clamped it tightly, set the height to 17" and trimmed all 4 legs to the same height and angle with one pass. Now all I have left to do is apply tung oil and find a new home for them.
I went ahead and put a couple of coats of pure tung oil on both the new RO Lichtenburg benches today and it did darken the ends of the tenon a little. I'll put another coat or two on over the next few days and hope it darkens them more to help match the surface of the benches. Keep your fingers crossed.
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That Lichtenburg sure looks good!
Yes, the guy does a real good job using his homemade burner he made from the transformer of an old microwave. People use neon sign transformers too. They can be real dangerous. The engraving did darken the surface of the bench a lot but you will never have the same design on 2 pieces.
It would be interesting to take 2 bookbatched pieces and try to start at matching points on each and see how closely the current flowed on each.
Some people fill the etching with a contrasting color and epoxy which is a nice touch but I don't work with epoxy enough to do that.
I have no experience but I think they use a "doctored" water to make the surface more conductive. It may be that whatever he is using is staining the surface a little rather than the burning process darkening the wood. It might be worth quizzing him on whether and what he is using and getting a little bit to experiment on some leg ends with. Personally I think they look just fine as is, but I have been told all my taste is in my mouth.
Don,
He does add baking soda to the water he wipes the surface with to help carry the current. He told me if I wanted to lighten them to use some type of acid (I forget the exact name) and said it would help bleach it back out but the color is not that much darker than normal. I think the darkening is more from the heat than the baking soda. I figure there will be just as many people who prefer the dark as would the lighter color so its a wash IMHO.
my engravings get smoke near the letters and pictures also. the acid may be oxalic acid, also called wood bleach. could try one with the legs in already. or of course you could, ... not do through tenons. :) :) :)
I put my tenon cutter on a drill for the first time today and turned a tenon on a piece of 2x2 oak. It was a little scary at first, but once it got going it was easier. Doc gave me a hint to wet the wood a little to make it a little softer for cutting.
Please be careful with the lichtenburg stuff. We had a call a while back where a guy died a while back from being electrocuted while trying to do it.
here is my thread with all the tenon cutter info.
What up Benches? in General Woodworking (forestryforum.com) (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=105007.60)
Thanks Doc. I read thru it. That's what made me realize that I do NOT have a lee valley cutter. Mine is some other brand. The guy I bought it from had 2 cutters and the other one was a Lee VAlley. I didn't buy that one from him. I wanted the smaller one.
FFOTS,
Great to hear you are a Tenonologist now. :D Are you using square stock for legs? If so remember to take a draw knife to the corners so the cutter head slips over it easier. Round stock works better but it depends on the look you want. I now mostly use 2-1/4" square stock then cut the corners off on my table saw leaving a generally octagon shape that works well. Here is one I was recutting after I broke the leg in the bench when I dropped it. I had enough extra length to just cut a new tenon on the same leg.
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I don't know how you are clamping your legs. I use a simple vise clamped to an upright on my pole barn. Note I have 3X6 piece of cribbing under the leg to help support it during cutting. You can see the shape on the leg with the corners knocked off. It cuts as easily as round stock IMHO. Good luck - have fun. Experiment with different sizes and styles of legs till you find what you like best.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on August 14, 2021, 10:48:26 PM
Thanks Doc. I read thru it. That's what made me realize that I do NOT have a lee valley cutter. Mine is some other brand. The guy I bought it from had 2 cutters and the other one was a Lee VAlley. I didn't buy that one from him. I wanted the smaller one.
If you don't have a big slow speed drill already, I recommend the Milwaukee Model 1660-6. A 450 RPM, single speed with a extra pipe handle on it.
Really was night and day compared to my big variable speed drill. Big, slow with monster torque and huge handles for leverage, really is the ticket.
Thanks for the tips guys. I made a bench this morning and have no process and clearly need to come up with some infrastructure like you guys have. I was clamping to saw horses and threw them around when the cutter would catch. No, I didnt cut the corners off. That would have helped. I need to get a different drill. My old Milwaukee 1/2" hole shooter was not happy with me and I was not happy with it. My bench came out pretty good and my next should be better. I cut off the legs with sawmill as slow as the power feed would go.
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That came out quite nice! How did you secure the legs? Wedge or no wedge? Tite bond glue?
Tom, they are not thru tenons, so no wedge. A whole lot of titebond 2. Drove legs in with a hammer.
You can wedge a non-through tenon. A little tricky but doable.
I flair the legs about 13° in all directions (out) . I have done the blind wedges. it takes some basic math, and a clear head. I use calipers as the slot, the wedge, and the tenon and hole have to all be made to fit. the bottom of the leg hole drives the wedge in the slot, as you drive the leg tenon in the hole, fairing the end in the blind end of the hole. with glue is will be permanent. not a good thing to do in the early morning hours, and or with too much beer. :). if your tenons are loose, the cut can be adjusted to fit.
That makes sense. Someday, maybe I'll try it.
Yeah, I have been thinking about it too. Sometimes shrinkage rates after build make the tenon stick up through the bench seat a little bit and this annoys me. Blind tenons would solve this but have their own challenges.
blind tenons are not bad if you cut them on a drill press and can set the depth up off the bed. As you know, I have a radial drill press with and angle tip table. makes it a compound drill press. I think you could make a false bed to sit on the table with a double 13° (what I use) angle. then set the forstner bit up and 1/8th of so off the new bed. many drill press beds and angle right and left, and then you can make a solid be to sit on top. you need a way to hit the right spot for the leg. and it will be different depending on the thickness of the bench at that spot. so I put a mark on the table and reference it, the seat of the bench down on the table to drill from the top (underneath side of the seat).
Anybody think about making benches with backs using the tenon cutter for joinery. Have to make it pretty deep to make sure it doesn't tip over.
I've thought about it, I just haven't figured it out yet. "Thinking' is easy and cheap, 'doing' costs a little more. :D
I tried it a few times. A couple of successes and one classic fail where the edge of the half log seat split away because I was too close to the edge. You need an offset upright in my opinion to make the geometry work out for a more comfortable sitting bench. Anyone want to guess what happenned on the second log? I named it 3 blade bench if you want a hint. :D
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I have done it. I used branches as the up rights. it can be tough to get the size of the natural wood pieces right both artistically and structurally, no to mention the angle for comfort. since you have a "lever" sticking higher up in the air, and a back on a bench calls out for people to "lean back" you have to kick at least the back legs farther back. IMO.
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I will have to find a pick with the natural materials.
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I love the 3 blade bench.
That's what I was thinking of Doc. I was thinking that making it with arms would help make the back stronger.
I like the arms. I'm sorry Doc, but I am not sure I am in love with the mortise and tenon backs. With the legs the strain on the legs is mostly straight up and down. With the back it is back and forth and I'd be concerned either the tenon or the back part of the bench could loosen or break. The arms help reinforce the back.
people want what they want. that was for my uncle Jerry, and in his mind, they needed a back. they were reasonably comfortable and sturdy. you prob. just do not like it cause it makes it harder to cut the legs on the sawmill!!! :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) :) :) :). this is the extent of the benches with backs that I have made as I am not a fan either. but someone had asked about it so there you go.
the one with the arms, but no legs, is a porch swing, so that seemed to be a good design element.
the one with no arms an no legs is just a slab! :)
Doc,
You found me out. :( Actually I figure I could cut the legs before putting the back on and still use the mill. I guess if you offset the uprights for the backs you could still turn them over and cut off the excess but really, if it did not show you could just leave the extra length and possibly gain some extra support. Of course I am basing my decisions on using 2" LE slabs and my tenon cutter leaves a 3" tenon on the end so I cut off the excess 1". I assume you are using some thicker wood and burying the tenon inside the wood. I used to do that but changed to the thinner slabs to reduce the weight and I do not feel I sacrifice and strength. I do find I need the full 2" to properly hold the tenon in the mortise. Your finish work and engraving far exceeds anything I can do and maybe I am just jealous but I'll put my sawmill cut legs up against anything you have to a level test. thumbs-up
I still want to see a "linchenberger" thread to see how that is done. the electric one, not the cheese :). will your buddy let you take some pics? I do not want to get anyone in over their head. just find it interesting.
Happy Birthday Howard!!! smiley_beertoast
The Rite Leg Co uprights for a bench back are really nice. Very affordable and Kevin has the angles worked out perfect. Here is a walnut bench with the back rest brackets. They attach solidify under the bottom of the bench. This is a memorial bench that I made from walnut for a family to honor a long standing very loved Judge in Wheeler County, Georgia.
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Thanks Doc. We had a real good day spending most of it with FF member Ellmoe and wife and tomorrow is scheduled for a boat trip with them.
I don't do video and my friend who does the Lichtenburg burning/engraving is 15-20 miles away from where I live and I just see him at the flea markets. If I'm ever over there I'll try to take come pictures of his equipment and him in operations. You can look it up on line as there are lots of examples out there.
Lichtenberg Wood Burning With Green Epoxy - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lichtenberg+figure+burn&docid=607987599105336486&mid=186F88E614EC48FB90FF186F88E614EC48FB90FF&view=detail&FORM=VIRE)
Fractal Lichtenberg Figure Wood Burning with Electricity - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lichtenberg+figure+burn&docid=608018634523417322&mid=2CAC8D8A2C1302B25D7D2CAC8D8A2C1302B25D7D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE)
I guess the key is to see if the video maker comes back and makes yet a "second video". not sure I will do this but would like to know more. your buddy also does it in a very artistic way. I can see that some might just make marks on the wood and not add to the interest of the piece.
I had a couple come buy an unfinished 4' long ash bench last week and today we stopped by our local bait, rafting and outfitters shop and the young man there said he'd just sold another 4' unfinished ash bench I had there on consignment so he paid me for that. I asked if he wanted another and he did . They use my bench back in their footwear department for people to try on boots and such. He said this customer had a spot on their campground and had been watching and thinking about the bench for weeks before finally buying it. Anyway I cut 4 - 2' long legs off some 3" square stock and looked through my ash slabs till I found a likely candidate and sanded the top pretty smooth, mostly to clean it up as it was pretty dusty. I planed the legs down to 2.5" square, cut the corners off to make octagons, cut the tenons on the end, drilled my 4 mortises in the slab, glued and drove the legs on and cut the excess off the top then threw it on the mill, set it to 17" and sliced all the legs off.
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4' long, about 8" on the narrow end, 14" or so on the wide end, some curve and plenty of EAB tracks on the LE sides and 17" tall. After I took the picture I went ahead and added a metal sledge hammer wedge in each tenon to tighten them securely. It is ready to be dropped off. I'm pretty much locked in to these octagon legs too.
That bench has a nice shape, and yeah, those legs are a winner all day long.
One other tip I suggest when adding the metal wedges is to drive them in perpendicular to the length of the bench (I.e Parallel to the end of the bench). It seems to me when you insert them parallel to the length of the bench you are spreading the tenon at the weak spot on the mortise and are more likely to split the bench from the end to the mortise at the thin spot there. I could be wrong but this seems a stronger way to install them and still tighten the tenon in the mortise.
Wv
Where do you get them medal wedges I've looked and just can't seem to find them in bulk and one question is cedar an option to use for legs or not the best
Sorry I missed this yesterday. It was a long day. PM sent with source. Good luck.
I see no problem with using cedar as long as you use good quality leg stock.