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Stihl 462CM Hard Cold Start

Started by YellowHammer, April 06, 2021, 08:09:48 AM

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YellowHammer

I've had this saw for a few months, use Stihl silver oil, unleaded non ethanol premium, and never let it run out of fuel.  It is the worst cold starting saw, and best hot starting saw I've ever owned.  Yesterday, it took 11 pulls from dead cold to start, and immediately after that, only 1/2 pull for the rest of the day.  I was literally about to throw it against the wall.  I have had Stihl saws all my my life and am very familiar with the normal Stihl carbureted staring sequence, but since this saw is electronic, none of my old Stihl starting techniques work.  

The dealership I bought it from doesn't have a computer to work on it, and the other place nearby has a computer but is backed up for many weeks because they are short of mechanics.  

I've done several successful calibration resets as described in the manual, and nothing seems to change.  So I'm trying to work through it myself, and one thing I've noticed is that during a cold start, which is always supposed to be done on this saw with the "choke" lever full down, when it tries to start cold, sometimes the choke lever stays full down, and sometimes it pops up to the run position, without me blipping the throttle or doing anything.

So, since this is a CM saw, and since the choke lever isn't really a choke, is it supposed to stay full down during a cold start, or is it supposed to pop up at some point on its own?  This level isn't really a choke, as far as I can tell, the instructions say its supposed to be down for starting, and stays down through recalibration on its own.  If the lever pops up during a cold start, and I try to start it that way, it simply will never start, I can pull it 20 time with no start with the lever up.

If anybody has any ideas, I'd like to check them out.  Otherwise, this saw will be on the trade in list. 

   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

trapper

3 years with my 261cm same thing dealer says nothing wrong acording to computor doc henderson had better results with his dealer.
stihl ms241cm ms261cm  echo 310 400 suzuki  log arch made by stepson several logrite tools woodmizer LT30

weimedog

Is it possible they respond as the Husqvarna Autotunes do? Easy to choke and flood? On a typical Autotune, choke for 3-4 pulls OR a pop. Which ever happens first, then turn choke off and don't touch the trigger so it stays in "high idle". Usually starts next pull. But pull five with the choke on with the Autotunes means another 5 at least.

And usually they don't need a computer on those. 
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

ehp

Put choke level down in lock like a choke level . Donot take it up to run spot . Pull rip cord and keep pulling until it's running . First run in morning leave saw running 20 to 30 seconds without hitting the throttle . That is how it sets the moronic to the temp of the day . All my 462 start 3 or 4 pulls cold . 

ehp

Once it's ran 20 to 30 seconds hit the trigger and your good to go 

YellowHammer

@ehp 
So with my saw, sometimes the choke lever comes up all by itself into run mode when starting cold, and that's the problem?  Mine seemingly does it more often than not.

Sometimes the choke lever stays down when starting and stays in choke mode during cranking and idle, but many times the lever comes up to run mode all by itself, without me hitting the throttle or anything.  I assumed the saw brain was telling the choke lever to release and come up to run mode automatically by itself.  

Yesterday it did it three times during the 11 pull cold start sequence.  I set the choke lever down, pulled the cord, the saw burped, died instantly and the choke lever had come up to the run position all by itself.

Then I reset the choke lever back down, pulled the cord a few times, the saw burped, and the choke lever had again come up to the run position, all by itself.  Then I set it into start mode again and finally on the third sequence the saw kept running.  Never once did I actually raise the lever from choke to run, the saw did it all by itself.     

it sounds like I may have a linkage or something inside that is causing the saw to come out of start mode into run mode all by itself.  I will look into it.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

I assume that my 362cm is supposed to function the same way as the 462.  ?? Of course assumptions and all that  . . . But . . . The lever stays down until it burps once the pops up by itself. Seems to me it's primed at that point. Next pull it usually starts and runs once it's burped and the lever has popped up. Occasionally takes two pulls to start but usually one after the burp. If I recall, there's an interim position between full choke and run where it stops by itself after the burp. (I may be remembering a different saw on that intermediate position thing - pollen's got me a little scrambled today.). Then pull, start,blip the trigger and it goes to the run position. Just reporting FWIW. It definitely conforms to what's in the manual as long as I do what they call for. 

I do find it primes faster when I don't use the comp release, but that seems like a predictable thing. 

Hope you get it sorted out. Frustrating when things don't start correctly.
HM126

ehp

You should take a look at your linkage and make sure dirt is wood chips have not gotten in there so your lever is not sitting correct inside or maybe the lever is damaged where uts to sit in the choke position.  It should sit there pretty solid and not come off on its own. I'm pretty sure that's why your saw is not starting correct . It's in the linkage.  

barbender

On my 261cm, it doesn't come out of the choke position until I hit the throttle.
Too many irons in the fire

axeman2021

Try this it works on my CMs, first with the choke on full give saw 4 hard starting  pulls then hold off around 30 seconds, raise choke lever to the run Pos. give it two hard starting pulls then set choke back to full choke again start giving saw hard starting pulls when saw fires off the chain brake and give it a blip then it's ready to start cutting logs.

This has worked for me it's just for the first cold starting not for a hot restart.

Hope it will work for your CM saw.

Old saw fixer

     @YellowHammer - Have you resolved your hard start problem? 
Stihl FG 2, 036 Pro, 017, HT 132, MS 261 C-M, MSA 140 C-B, MS 462 C-M, MS 201 T C-M
Echo CS-2511T, CS-3510
Logrite Cant Hook (with log stand), and Hookaroon

YellowHammer

Nope, I'm going to get rid of it unless a miracle happens. I played with the linkage and got it where the start lever stays on when it starts.  So that's been fixed.  It wasn't seated on the slot correctly.

I ran the saw yesterday a little, maybe three tanks of gas, it started on the 9th pull when dead cold, then only 1/2 pull after that. It starts incredibly easy when hot or warm.  

I went out this morning, 60F, it started on the 12th pull.  Totally unacceptable. As soon as it cranks and runs, I can immediately shut it off, and it will start first pull, even mostly cold.

I put in a new spark plug last week, no noticeable difference.  I can't get it worked on for weeks, and the quickest solution is to buy a different saw and trade this or Craigslist it.

My 661 fired up third pull this morning.  

I tried the below procedure also, it doesn't seem to help much, although I'm glad it was posted.  I use this saw pretty much everyday.  I don't understand why it sitting overnight causes such a hard start issue when it runs so well.  It's really a sweet running saw, but the beginning of a day cold start issue is intolerable.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

It kinda sounds like a slow priming issue for whatever reason. Seems like once it's primed it's ok. Maybe one of the saw gurus has an idea on that. 
HM126

Magicman

Just a guess but the hot shutdown may be boiling the carburetor dry, same as running out of fuel would do.    With the cold startup you are having to completely "prime" the entire fuel system before it starts.

I sorta wish that my MS362 had a primer bulb.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

That may be, its like the fuel system is empty and I have to prime it by pulling it several times.  So this afternoon, after letting it sit for most of the day, I cranked it on pull 6.  As I mentioned, as soon as it hits, I can immediately shut it off, and it will restart first pull.  At that point, it's still basically dead cold, but has fuel all the way to the cylinder, and will start immediately.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

axeman2021

This was the reason i give it 4 pulls first to prime the system on a cold first start.

YellowHammer

Are they hard pulls, or just slow pull throughs?  So you are using 6 pulls to get it primed?   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Tacotodd

Is it feasible to manually prime it every day before you use it? 

Because it's sounding like that's your only choice at this stage of the game, then you might take it to have it looked at by a dealer. If/when you do that, be sure to take it in unstarted for the day and let him see your issue.
Trying harder everyday.

Southside

No idea if it will help with a puter controlled saw, but on my 372's when they are cold I will slow roll the cord out for several pulls, maybe 3 at most 4.  It's not a pull at all, literally just rolling over the piston to prime the cylinder.  It will never start this slow, just clunk, clunk, clunk, absolutely no shoulder effort.  I do it with the decomp pressed in and the choke out.  Then give it one regular pull, and it comes to life enough to pop out the decomp lever.  Second pull and they are always running.

I watch guys pull, pull, pull, faster, faster, faster - I feel no need to break a sweat starting a saw.  Way too many other things I need to accomplish that will fulfill that need.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

thecfarm

I do that with my 372 also. 
I just bought a 450 husky. That thing will just about fire on the third pull and that is a easy pull too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ehp

you using the decompressure on the saw, I never use it on any of my 462s 

YellowHammer

Sometimes I use the compression release. sometimes not.

I called Stihl USA, the mothership, and had a good conversation with the tech rep.  Basically, he thinks I've got a fuel starvation issue, and am losing prime.  I didn't disagree. Also, since I've had my saw more than 3 months, and I'm a business, its out of warranty, which was a surprise to me.  I thought it had a two year warranty, but I was mistaken.  So I'm on my own, so to speak. Even a dealer diagnostics test costs money out of my pocket at this point, so now I'm looking at this in a new light.  

He suggested I could shotgun the problem, and I should sequentially replace the fuel filter, air filter, spark plug, carburetor, fuel line and finally the solenoid.  Yeah, right.  I told him I may as well replace the entire saw.  He also suggested I take it to my nearby John Deere dealership, apparently they are authorized dealers and repair facilities and have the proper training and computers, whereas other dealers, like mine where I bought the saw, don't or may not have the depth of knowledge or the equipment.  We discussed this option, which I wasn't really aware of, and I agree that it's probably best to take it to a service facility where they have professional mechanics working on tractor engines, vs at a hardware store where the mechanic may not be as experienced.  This opens up repair options for me, as I have a Deere dealer not to far away.  I called them and they do have repair equipment but couldn't give me an estimated turn around time for the repairs.

So after that conversation, I decided it was up to me to try the simple stuff, and just go through the saw as any other unwarranted piece of equipment I own, and try to diagnose and fix the problems myself.  I uploaded a useful semi diagnostic document on the internet from Stihl that helped me understand the Mtronic system a little better, and I went through the saw from stem to stern and found a wire that was loose and a few other things.  I disconnected and reconnected electrical connections, any fuel lines I could reach, tightened every nut and bolt I could find, and fiddled with anything else I could play with, because at this point, I sure don't need to worry about voiding the warranty.  My air filter was clean, but had a little oil in it, from the inside.  I'm not sure what that means, if anything.  

After playing with it for awhile, and buttoning everything back up, it cranked on the third pull, cold, which was surprising to me.  It's never done that before.  I'll check tomorrow and see if it's fixed, or was just teasing me.

I have called around and found a shop that's about 2 hours away that has 500i chainsaws and doesn't take trades, which wasn't a good option, and another shop about the same distance in the other direction that has several 500i's in stock that does take trades, but, (nothing is easy) their saws were shipped without mufflers, for emissions reasons the guy said, and they have been waiting about 2 months for the mufflers to arrive.  So that's a better scenario, and I need to get this saw either running smoothly until they come in and trade it off, or put it on the shelf and pick up another saw, until someone has a 500i and takes trades.  I don't want to Craigslist it off, because I don't want to do that to an unwary buyer, and sell my problem to them.  

This is a really nice saw to use, I like it, or I wouldn't still be putting effort into it, but I just have to work through the cold start issue.    

Anyways, I learned a few things, so the process continues.    
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Tacotodd

Be sure and reply back. We're interested to know what you find.
Trying harder everyday.

barbender

You'd think they'd make the effort to stand behind something like that, it's just good business. Pretty disappointing I'm sure😡
Too many irons in the fire

mike_belben

@nativewolf has had some mtronic woes too.  


Im thoroughly talked out of that whole high tech mess. 
Praise The Lord

axeman2021

Quote from: YellowHammer on April 12, 2021, 11:08:52 PM
Sometimes I use the compression release. sometimes not.

I called Stihl USA, the mothership, and had a good conversation with the tech rep.  Basically, he thinks I've got a fuel starvation issue, and am losing prime.  I didn't disagree. Also, since I've had my saw more than 3 months, and I'm a business, its out of warranty, which was a surprise to me.  I thought it had a two year warranty, but I was mistaken.  So I'm on my own, so to speak. Even a dealer diagnostics test costs money out of my pocket at this point, so now I'm looking at this in a new light.  

He suggested I could shotgun the problem, and I should sequentially replace the fuel filter, air filter, spark plug, carburetor, fuel line and finally the solenoid.  Yeah, right.  I told him I may as well replace the entire saw.  He also suggested I take it to my nearby John Deere dealership, apparently they are authorized dealers and repair facilities and have the proper training and computers, whereas other dealers, like mine where I bought the saw, don't or may not have the depth of knowledge or the equipment.  We discussed this option, which I wasn't really aware of, and I agree that it's probably best to take it to a service facility where they have professional mechanics working on tractor engines, vs at a hardware store where the mechanic may not be as experienced.  This opens up repair options for me, as I have a Deere dealer not to far away.  I called them and they do have repair equipment but couldn't give me an estimated turn around time for the repairs.

So after that conversation, I decided it was up to me to try the simple stuff, and just go through the saw as any other unwarranted piece of equipment I own, and try to diagnose and fix the problems myself.  I uploaded a useful semi diagnostic document on the internet from Stihl that helped me understand the Mtronic system a little better, and I went through the saw from stem to stern and found a wire that was loose and a few other things.  I disconnected and reconnected electrical connections, any fuel lines I could reach, tightened every nut and bolt I could find, and fiddled with anything else I could play with, because at this point, I sure don't need to worry about voiding the warranty.  My air filter was clean, but had a little oil in it, from the inside.  I'm not sure what that means, if anything.  

After playing with it for awhile, and buttoning everything back up, it cranked on the third pull, cold, which was surprising to me.  It's never done that before.  I'll check tomorrow and see if it's fixed, or was just teasing me.

I have called around and found a shop that's about 2 hours away that has 500i chainsaws and doesn't take trades, which wasn't a good option, and another shop about the same distance in the other direction that has several 500i's in stock that does take trades, but, (nothing is easy) their saws were shipped without mufflers, for emissions reasons the guy said, and they have been waiting about 2 months for the mufflers to arrive.  So that's a better scenario, and I need to get this saw either running smoothly until they come in and trade it off, or put it on the shelf and pick up another saw, until someone has a 500i and takes trades.  I don't want to Craigslist it off, because I don't want to do that to an unwary buyer, and sell my problem to them.  

This is a really nice saw to use, I like it, or I wouldn't still be putting effort into it, but I just have to work through the cold start issue.    

Anyways, I learned a few things, so the process continues.    
Would you give use the link to the stihl Mtronic diagnostic document?

doc henderson

one of our eagle scouts works at a dealer in "the south"  and has done me many favors.  I am checking to see where.  I have done he and his family a few as well.  My dealer went through a regional rep with my 660 I returned.  the dealer did it on his own on my 261 as I am a good customer.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

My buddy lives about 7 hours drive from you.  so too far, but i am asking for advice, and or contacts closer to you.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

nativewolf

@YellowHammer Sorry to hear of your woes.  We had a boatload of issues that were fuel related.  

We bought ours through our very local dealer and thank goodness, had 4 of them.  1 we crushed underneath a forwarder (opps), one blew up, one is junked.  If I had to do it again we'd use premixed fuel only.  I think something is wrong with the fuel solenoids, solenoids are not expensive; on one saw it and the top end were replaced under warranty as the solenoid had failed (this was the first 462 repair under warranty in the USA- not the claim to fame you want).  Stihl's regional rep was great to work with, he supported our local dealer all the way.  

Recently we've had a 500i just stop working...nothing.  Complete diagnostic says everything is ok- like new, but it won't run.  Just cut off.  My son did not even try to restart just took to our dealer.  2 weeks old.  That was a great saw too, really nice power/weight/balance.  I'd buy that before buying another 462cm.  I much preferred the 500i and I think they've got a real keeper.  

So I think that the Stihl solenoids have some issues with certain pump gas mix- our fuel never sat more than a couple of days, we kept out of the rain and only used synthetic oil, et.  Others like @ehp  are very pleased, he has a steady source of high quality fuel and uses a high quality mix.  Our stihl dealer is great, his dad sharpens our chains (we're only hand sharpening once, must have 100 chains in rotation), his mom grew up next door to our farm, etc.  Good relationship.  Our solution has been to buy a pallet of premixed 94 octane ethanol free moto fuel.  We'll get the 500i back soon.  Our 362 never had the same issues as the 462/661 or 500i so I suspect a change in solenoid manufacturers sometime, the 362 is the oldest of them all and is my favorite, favorite topping saw.  Use it all day and not fell tired (I'm 53 and this means maybe 10 tanks of fuel- for me that's a good days work).  It never complains about fuel, everything is just great.  

I believe the 500i is going to be a real winner but our local fuel issues have forced me into the pre mixed fuel route.  

Liking Walnut

ehp

ya  you guys got bad fuel, I have not had a fuel problem in alot of years like I'm guessing 15 years . One thing I'm not sure many know but saws like the 500i has its own fuel filter and you have to use that fuel filter , it has a magnet inside it to pick up the very fine metal that is in today fuel, that is why alot of the fuel solenoids fail 

YellowHammer

I'll try the pre mix route, I've never done that, and never had to.  $20 bucks a gallon?  ouch.  I'm using unleaded non ethanol premium.  If the saw won't run on that, jeez. 

I really like my dealer, but he is out of his league with the newer says, and he admits it, and doesn't even have the diagnostics equipment.  So I need to find a new dealer I can trust. Or just go back to a carburetor saw.

I'd buy a 500i for the heck of it, but I can't even get close to finding one around here.  The nearest is several hours drive away, and they won't take a trade in.  

I was looking at the diagnostic link on the web, and it had Stihl confidential so I shouldn't post it. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Skeans1

Just kind of curious how much fuel are you guys running through and how are you storing your fuel?

barbender

I'm very thankful for the quality non-ethanol fuel we have available. I've never had a fuel quality issue.
Too many irons in the fire

YellowHammer

I go through a 5 gallon jug every few weeks.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Skeans1

@YellowHammer 
So not a ton, is the can stored inside a warm area?

donbj

Something is going on with this whole fuel thing. A guy should not have to buy premix so his saws will run! Something f'd up with that. Some fuel lasts a month, some 6. Put ethanol in, better stay on it.

I have literally have saws that have sat for 30 years with a tank of fuel. When opened it was literally oil in the tank. Inside the carbs was just oily residue, no corrosion or such. A quick clean and many ran fine aside from maybe stiff diaphram or something. Certainly nothing like the risk of leaving fuel in a saw for more than a couple months these days. What gives with this?
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

barbender

I agree and I'm glad that our local fuel hasn't had these issues. If you get the non-ethanol premium and don't get water in it, it seems to stay pretty stable. I have saws that often go 3 months without being started, and I haven't had fuel problems with them.
Too many irons in the fire

nativewolf

Clearly we do have some fuel issues, we went 6 months offsite without issues but locally...we have issues.   That said the dealers advice running high octane fuel in these saws.  High octane ethanol free is not available to us.  So, we are just going for the pre mixed.  I actually don't live that close to a gas station (20 mins) and not having to make trips, mix, bring home etc will help offset the high cost of the mix fuel.  We'll buy a pallet a couple of times a year.

@skeans1 has suggested to us that it is critical to keep the fuel out of weather and warm. We don't have a heated garage so in the winter it got cold.  

@ehp- yes we only use the stihl filters.  I change them once in a while. 

Our dealer was sent diagnostic software to analyze the saws, it is pretty neat actually.  I'm sure that Stihl is going to figure all of this out.  Many people are very happy with them but others have issues, I can only surmise that they have some supplier solenoid issues, maybe 2 providers? or QA issues.  I do know that on the 1 462 it was a solenoid that had failed and that Stihl changed solenoid parts and fuel filters in all 462s about one year into sales here in the USA.  I have now found that they have done parts changes on the 661.  We have two 661s and they have different parts on the top end.

Liking Walnut

YellowHammer

I agree on the fuels thing, I have quite a few 2 stroke engines and very demanding 4 stroke small engines, and never had a fuel issue with them.  The fuel is stored inside my shop, it 70F, mixed with Stihl oil, and I have been running it for years and years, and this is the first time I've had a problem with it.  My 661 loves it, as does my 372, my pole saw, backpack blowers, and other stuff. As I can tell this saw does as well, because when it starts, it runs like a scalded dog, no smoke, nothing.  However, I might get some and try it. 

I still think this is some sort of prime issue, yesterday, it burped then died on the third pull, but when it died, now that I'm getting to understand it, it sounded fuel starved.  I got it cranked 6 pulls later, and as soon is it hit, I immediately killed it, maybe one heartbeat at most.  So I knew I had fuel to the carb and as far as I was concerned, it was now fully primed.  I gave it one short tug, and it roared to life.  It wanted to run.

I'm going to try the slow pull throughs today, until I can smell fuel, maybe a half dozen or so.  I also need to do some more reading on some of the diagnostic tests, are there are vacuum tests, fuel line bleed down tests, etc, and it's not like this is an emergency, it's just an annoyance.

  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

weimedog

Quote from: ehp on April 13, 2021, 08:55:18 PM
ya  you guys got bad fuel, I have not had a fuel problem in alot of years like I'm guessing 15 years . One thing I'm not sure many know but saws like the 500i has its own fuel filter and you have to use that fuel filter , it has a magnet inside it to pick up the very fine metal that is in today fuel, that is why alot of the fuel solenoids fail
This a Stihl issue? Or Husqvarna as well? I haven't seen any of the Autotunes have issues in this way but have seen some M-tronic solenoid issues locally here, but not so many that it's raised a flag. Figured they should be similar so should I be expecting something similar to show up?? I've been running ( my customers as well ) just the non ethanol 89 octane from the pump at 32:1 or 40:1 with Husqvarna oil...no issues any where in the community of saws I support. All Husky.  
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Skeans1

@nativewolf 
@YellowHammer 
I've ran autotune saws since 2011 both of which have had nothing but a straight diet of ethonal fuel put through them with a lot of gallons of fuel burnt through both. When I think of going through fuel I think of 4 gallons a week any longer and it's probably time to toss it out. 

Native-
What octane is this can fuel you're running? Running a higher octane can cause just as many problems as running to low of an octane.

Yellow-
I wonder if the diaphragm in the carb has a tear or isn't placed correctly.

doc henderson

lots of M-tronic problems, and not many dealers will admit it.  I am fortunate to have a straight shootin dealer, and a friend who works at an outdoor equipment dealer that carries Stihl.  they have told me there are issues.  these are issues that happen when you engineer something way beyond the pale trying to save 2 drops of fuel (or comply with all the sudden regulation by the government) per day.  I will prob. never buy another 3 position start saw.  the dealer thinks they have improved the m-tronic solenoid, but does that mean they are perfected?  the dealers techs do not all know how to test them.  and often they will say they tested normal.  My dealer finally just put a new one on my 261cm, and no troubles since.  it is a problem if you run them out of fuel.  overengineered finicky.  He know they have a problem with the metering solenoid.  they should not loose prime, unless you run it out of fuel.  If I had to pay for it, I would tell to skip the diagnostics and just replace the solenoid with the new and improved one.  then when it fixes (hopefully) the problem, go back and tell them it must have been that way from the factory.  If you your dealer still denies a problem, I would find a new dealer.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

mike_belben

High octane has a higher autoignition temp and flash point.  Its benefit is that it takes more temp to detonate which is when the entire charge goes off simultaneously.  This is the rattley marbles in a coffee can sound grandads old ford marquis had lugging up a hill.  It is uncontrolled combustion. Like a grenade.  Very hard on top rod bearings, rings and wrist pins.


Controlled combustion is like a rock in the center of a pond making ripples (of temp rise, flame wave and expansion that then compress the next layer of fuel/air mix which repeats the sequence) all the way to the shores .. In this case the cylinder wall.


High octane is for severe application.. Either a bandaid fix for a terrible knock prone cylinder design like say old open chamber V8s with no squish pad, or the worst, original hemi or toyota 22r.. That half an orange shape with a huge pop up piston.  

Or high octane is for performance components..  I dont mean oem parts and performance use or abuse.. Properly designed oem parts will take all the throttle you can offer on 87 without fail.  I mean 10:1+ pistons then a turbo with 10psi or more ontop of that.  Or 11.5+ compression NA and sahara roadracing.  Thats gonna require an octane repair.  Dyno queens... They can pour on ignition timing and boost boost boost to hit the number if they have enough octane to keep detonation off. 



All this stock stuff will run and will run well on 87 octane because it burns faster (which prevents knock) and chamber designs and knock sensors today are such that we do not need octane or lead to bandaid fix bad combustion shapes or ignition timing or injection quantities of 1988.

  Besides all that, 2 strokes spin so fast that detonation has really never ever been an issue.  You dont touch wood at idle like a pickup truck with a trailer leaving a stop light and going easy on the clutch.  Low RPM makes slow cycles and slow cycles take long time. Long time lets hot bores raise fuel/air temps hotter and low octanes go bang when autoignition temp is achieved.  High octane is unnecessary in a saw.  Its for a 4 stroke problem.  


As for ethanol, i have had it turn to jelly in vented float bowls that have sat parked for 3+ months.  Ive had it jellify very old fuel lines on stuff that was manufactured before ethanol. Ive never had it fail to run in a saw within 2 months of purchase.. A clearish color is what i go by.  When it starts to look like a coors light it becomes partswasher solvent.   i have both vented and unvented cans in a very humid climate with major temp swing condensate.


Purely a guess here.. I suspect in the majority of cases, the saws are the issue and the fuel a convenient and unpopular scapegoat to cover some incredibly expensive recalls.  I have been on the interior of a corporate manufacturers policies of blame the customer at all costs before and this smells similar.




Praise The Lord

ehp

Yes you changed the fuel filters but were they the correct filter for that saw not the brand   . Like I said lots of dealers donot even know that you have to use a certain filter for that certain saw.  

No its a fuel problem . Lots of weed wackers have the same problem with the screen in the carb getting plugged solid of a very fine red dust . One fuel brand is by far the worst and lawn guys that do it for a living pretty much every 2 weeks get that screen cleaned as they run them 50 plus hours a week .

No husky has problems to cause its the fuel not the saw  fault .

I burn 2 to 3 gallons a day unless it's big timber then I burn more .  

I got saws here that are 6 or more years old that are auto autotune and zero problems as far as fuel .  I donot even change fuel filters hardly ever. If I got to put a fuel line in yes I change the filter .  

In my small group of guys I'm sure we got to own close to 30 mtronic or autotune saws and run saws everyday and no problems so it's the fuel I would have to guess . The last saw that had a problem was a 441 stihl that Pete bought and after 2 rounds of it screwing up it got sent down the road back to the dealer and he came back with a 461.   Like I said I buy my fuel from one place and it's a crazy price but zero problems.  Fuel right now is $1.60 a litre so pretty close to your quart.   It's 94 octane and I run klotz oil at 40 to 1 

barbender

Too many irons in the fire

nativewolf

For the next 6 months we're just using the premix ethanol free 94 octane moto fuel.  To heck with it.  More expensive but if it saves 1 trip to the dealer it is worth it.  If it saves a trip a week to buy 7.5 gallons of fuel it is probably worth it, get another tree down in that time.  Heck I can plant 30-40 trees in the same time.  

What I've learned on here is that we've got an abnormal situation and it exist across a variety of higher end Stihl products.  Not the 362cm which is also autotune.  Never had issues with them, always just get up and go.  So something...something is going on.

On the other hand...great dealer, he even sent us a client or two.  So it all goes under giant PITA rather than critical business failure.
Liking Walnut

mike_belben

Just remember, If your next saw burns up on the VP its time to throw the fuel theory out.  


My money is still on 50:1 being too lean, and saw fans not working when the bar is buried in the dirt and muffler blowing at the bark for a lengthy veneer borecut.  The heat gets trapped around the saw and the fans CFM plummets due to the grounds priximity restricting airflow.  The air temp between the saw and the dirt doubles, thus the delta T halves, more or less. 

 reduced exterior cooling efficiency.  air filter plugging up from the fine dust reduces the interior cooling efficiency from lower CFM passing through the machine.  
 

All additive.  Result is aluminum melting threshold is achieved on the exhaust side right at the ring land and spreading from there.  Not enough lube to prevent transfer. 



A temp gun.. Or even better a thermocouple datalogger clipped to the fins would make it quit obvious for charty folks.


Id fatten the fuel oil up, muffler mod if possible and give it idle breaks, especially after a bore cut.
Praise The Lord

doc henderson

I stick with Stihl cause I have a great dealer.  I think if the fuel was the only or major problem, the saw would not run so good after it starts.  I have been told by several in the Stihl world that it is known that the meters are finicky, and you might get a good one and you might not. My fuel is mixed with the stihl silver oil and can take me 6 months to use 2.5 gallons.  when running right, the fuel had never been an issue to my knowledge.   they have continued to improve them and after taking it in 3 times to find them saying the solenoid tests normal, the dealer replaced it with the latest gen new version and no problems since.  all using the same fuel.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

barbender

Mike, Mike! Whoa! Delta T halving? I'm simple, I was flying in my little bi-plane, we were cruising together until you just put the hammer down and I realized you were in a fighter jet!😂
Too many irons in the fire

mike_belben

Pew pew!

air_plane

When the saw is plunged into the tree with the powerhead blowing down into the weeds its like going from canada to africa in terms of ambient temp that the saw is feeling.  
Praise The Lord

thecfarm

Quote from: YellowHammer on April 14, 2021, 07:38:36 AM
I'm going to try the slow pull throughs today, until I can smell fuel, maybe a half dozen or so.    

 
I do the slow pull on my 372. Makes a big difference on when it will fire with the chock on. But I only pull it over 3 times. I've tried more, but that seems to flood it. Seems like to me 3 is the magic number for me. 
Just want to give you a heads up that. Mine is an old 372. And I also have found out the 372 will start much better at 40-50° than when I leave it in an unheated garage. Just a light bulb and an old piece of carpet will warm it up and help on the cranking part. But I do know where you live too.  ;D  
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

YellowHammer

Well, things have changed dramatically.  My saw, which I fondly call "Ol Ten Pull" is magically "healed" and is night and day different.  The problem is I have absolutely no idea what did it, but it has started first pull cold for a couple days in a row, and this morning I did a three pull slow roll and it started first full pull, again.  The only thing I can think of is that somebody robbed me, took my other saw, and replaced it with a different one.  :D :D

Actually, I went to the Stihl dealer who would not work on my saw because I didn't buy it there and cornered the mechanic who had me do a couple things like pull and reattach a couple wires I hadn't messed with before, one set of which I actually heard "pop" in place.  That could have been the problem.  I bought a new spark plug (the second one),  air filter and fuel filter, and noticed when I was installing the fuel filter that the original one wasn't all the way on the fuel line.  So made sure the new one was.  Then I replaced the oily air filter which was only 3.5 months old.

At that point I pulled the starter and the stupid saw cranked up and ran on the very first pull. You could have knocked me over with a Vienna Sausage.  

  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

mike_belben

Pop as in electrical pop.. An arc?
Praise The Lord

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

customsawyer

My 462 problem is different. It starts normally by the second or third pull cold but when hot that is where my problems come in. Sometimes it does fine and sometimes it takes 20 pulls. If it's in the 20 pull mood then when it does fire it won't stay running. It just about went in the burn pile the other day.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

YellowHammer

No, as in it hadn't been seated all the way mechanically and so maybe not have been seated all the way electrically, either.  It looked like it was fine, so I started tugging on it hard, (and all the other wires I could do get my hands on) trying to see if the wires would come out of the connecter, and something didn't look right, so I pushed the halves together and heard the "snap" of the connector closing all the way with the the other side. So I don't think the connector was seated correctly.  Maybe, but I'm not sure. 

I also pulled all the air cleaner stuff off and tightened the carburetor mounting nuts and they were a couple turns from tight.  They weren't rattling around loose, but they weren't what I'd consider tight enough to get a good gasket seal.  Again, I don't knowing it was an issue, but it sure isn't now.  

As I mentioned, the fuel filter was seated all the way in the little plastic hose, and wasn't getting a good seal, but again, maybe it was.

Either way, when I put the whole thing back together, I resigned myself to pulling on it until my back hurt, and lo and behold, I ran on the very first pull.  I shut it off and put it in the shelf, and the next morning, went out again, and it fired up in the very first pull.  

The next morning, it didn't fire on the first pull but did on the second.

The next day I slow rolled it a 3 times as indicated by the other posts, and it started in the first real pull.  

I don't know what's going on, but I may have to rename it from "Ol Ten Pull".   :D :D
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

doc henderson

great news!  Jake,  yours is more like mine was (261 and a prev. 661) and acted like it was flooded and would not start warm.  It would start 9 times out of 10, and always at the dealer.  I returned the 661 and got the 880.  they replaced the metering solenoid and the 261 has been fine since. 
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

thecfarm

I always slow pull my 372. That makes a big difference on how it starts. Use to take 6-7 hard pulls to get it started.
Glad you found the problem.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

YellowHammer

Old "Ten Pull" still starts first or second pull.  It's really a fine saw, snappy and strong.   I use it everyday. 

I have no idea what fixed the problem, maybe it overheard me on the phone calling my dealer asking what I could get for trade it.  Maybe that scared it... :D :D :D
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

realzed

Quote from: ehp on April 14, 2021, 10:55:44 AM

No its a fuel problem . Lots of weed wackers have the same problem with the screen in the carb getting plugged solid of a very fine red dust . One fuel brand is by far the worst and lawn guys that do it for a living pretty much every 2 weeks get that screen cleaned as they run them 50 plus hours a week .
  
 


Care to pass along your 'one fuel brand' findings - or at least how your experience has taught you the pecking order from worst to best? 
If there is a difference between them and one, or even a few of them  specifically seems to be at fault and avoided, it would certainly be nice to know!
I have always used Shell (best grade) as the station local to me is the sole one that seems capable of assuredly and consistently telling me that their highest grade 91 octane stuff is ethanol free - at any of the other stations I mostly just get blank looks or obvious lying answers to my question..
Thanks!

thecfarm

I use the highest grade of fuel at my local gas stations for all my small engines. 
I use the high grade for my small Chevy truck. Started out with regular, did not run good at all. When to the high grade it got much better, but still not really right. Went there once at lunch and they was changing clerks and had to count money and nothing could be sold until they got done. I was close to being done for lunch so went up the road and got the high grade gas. Seem to run much better. Next fill up I went back to the one I always go to. Back to not running good again. Went back to the one I did not go too and it ran better. So I went back to the one I always go to, Same thing, running bad again. That just about proved it, I do not get high grade there anymore and the truck is running great!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

realzed

I'd still like to know what brand of fuel Ed considers is the worst that he mentioned since I'm not that far away and probably have the same brand choices that he has to choose from!
But I'm sure each individual station has underground tanks that hold fuel - some better or less 'contaminated' than others..

realzed


YellowHammer

A couple things to add to this.  The 462 is still running fine, and recently I ran a can of pre mix through it, as an experiment, that I bought from my local chainsaw store.  Ehp was right, that stuff is like canned dynamite in a chainsaw.  It was surprising how much the saw liked it.

I was impressed, to say the least.  I'd like to know what is in it, the jug says 94 octane no ethanol plus a synthetic two stroke oil.  So why does the fuel I use, bought from a local pump, not work as well?  It's 93 octane no ethanol, with Stihl 50:1 oil?  What is the difference?  What else do they put in the pre mix that makes a saw perform so much better than my best top of the line pump gas and oil?  

To test it, after a couple tanks, I went back to the 93 octane no ethanol pump fuel/Stihl mix and could immediately feel a difference.  This has really got my curiosity up.

From another standpoint, amongst all this, my Stihl dealer got in a new shipment of 500i's and one followed me home.  So it was time for the acid test.  Pour in my pump gas &Stihl oil mix into the saw, hit the primer button a few times, pull the rope 2 times, (never been cranked before) and the saw comes to life.  Wow.  Sweet.



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

Good question YH. I've been wondering the same thing. Is there a FF member with a gas chromatograph?
HM126

mike_belben

Two thoughts on this.  


First is, if the Mtronic computer uses a knock sensor then it can probably advance the fuel and ignition timing curve up until just before knock (detonation) in order to make more cylinder pressure and thus torque.  



2nd one is, in my racecar days one of my mentors who has passed on was a guy named don who catered to the dyno queen crowd. Don had a vague man of mystery persona but was well known for laying down HP and his customers had the screenshots to prove it. 

Don was one of several who took me under their wing and one day on the phone he said to me the secret is in the fuel.  If i wanna make another hundred horse i just call VP and say blend me up another hundred horse.  Add the right fuel blend and you just keep going up on the boost, up on the ignition advance and spraying more fuel and making more power.  


When i got out of hondas 18yrs ago 1,000hp and 9s was the whoa line.  2 years ago speedfactory was at 2000hp from a 2.0L 4 cylinder @85psi boost.  Running 7.7's @ 210mph in a front wheel drive manual trans to boot.  Now all motor engines are making what turbo engines used to.  10k rpm on stock cranks. 

Fuel and timing.  
Praise The Lord

nativewolf

On these days when we are getting 40 degree temp swings the pump gas killed me.  I can't even get 93 non ethanol.  

A colleague uses 87 non ethanol then the syth oil then an octane boost.  By the time we do all that we might as well buy the pre mix is what we decided.  So we bought a pallet to save 30%.  A bit more than fuel and oil and octane mix but not much.  The saws do run better and 25 5 gallon jugs hold us and that saves some $ in time going to the store.
Liking Walnut

Real1shepherd

'Aspen' fuel is some pretty great stuff, but not a NA product AFAIK. The farm store type non-ethanol and the premix stuff has got some nasty ingredients....especially when you consider the price you're paying. Not saying it won't run well in your saws, but it's incredibly spendy.

I'll just continue to use pump non-ethanol and Stihl Ultra......


Kevin

doc henderson

I went to the trouble of getting aviation fuel.  no alcohol, high octane (100) and have been using it.  gone through about 5 gallons.  not sure if it makes a ton of difference, but better on the carb parts I would think.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

realzed

I too use 100LL and mix it with 91 non ethanol pump gas mixed about 50/50 or a bit higher on the av stuff..  
The price for avgas here isn't all that bad compared to the best pump gas I can get my hands on so why not, and I know the shelf life is far better than any service station crap available here as well?
I also mix it at 40:1 mixture along with Stihl synthetic oil and my 261CM seems to like it just fine over most anything else I've tried - so I'll stick with the combo..
The Stihl or Husky canned stuff 94 and 95 is good and like the av gas combo I can actually hear the difference when the saw is on it - but it's too pricey for me!

YellowHammer

I don't recommend avgas in a chainsaw.  It's much better to use autogas.

Several years ago, when I was doing advanced engine testing on high performance aircraft engines, we ran quite a few different types of fuels through high air cooled piston engines and evaluated them through a series of federal air worthiness tests.

Interestingly enough, Low Lead Aviation Gas has a quite high lead content as compared to conventional low lead automotive fuels.  The very substance that is added to it, Tetra Ethyl Lead, to increase its octane levels can cause severe lead fouling in cooler running engines, those which which operate at less than 1,650°F cylinder head temperatures. After lengthy runs, the uncombusted lead would precipitate on the piston cylinders, the heads, valves, and even the spark plug as a whitish powder or a gravel "clinker".  (No I didn't make the term up, search Google for Avgas, Clinker, lead deposits.) This whitish gray crusty deposit had the effects of causing preignition, loss of piston clearance, and even spark plug bridging and shorting.  At some point, the clinker would glow hot enough to even cause dieseling or knocking, (pre ignition) which quickly destroyed the engines.  This lead fouling, or clinker deposit can cause a shorten life of the engines, and is especially troublesome in high compression, small, carbureted, air cooled piston engines, such as the ones we were evaluating.  Or any engine that doesn't maintain relatively high cylinder head or turbine temperatures which would help combust the ethylene dibromide, which is added by the fuel manufacturer as a lead scavenger.  This is lead fouling is a known problem in the aviation industry, and is one reason that engine manufactures are so strict on their engine warm up, run up, and cool down procedures.  Did you ever wonder why aircraft engines typically leave a brown or black exhaust streak that stains the aircraft wing? That's remnants the combustion byproducts of the ethylene dibromide scavenging off the tetra ethyl lead.  If the engine was run too cool, that gunk stays in the engine.  

Also, there are several additives that can be used to minimize the clinker formation.
Decalin is a good example, but the generally accepted best is tricresyl phosphate, or TCP.  

Probably the best known, although generally long forgotten for that purpose, is Marvel Mystery Oil, which was used as far back as WWII to prevent lead fouling of bomber aircraft engines.  It is still used today.  

We worked with several of the major fuel companies to mitigate these issues, and it was a fun project.  We blew up LOTS of engines.  Here are a few quick references if you are interested.

https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/techart-18-30071600.html

https://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm







YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Real1shepherd

When I was working in the woods, leaded premium was still available. Some used it in their saws....the Swedish saw manufacturers were against it. They said it would cause the saws to run hotter because of the increased octane.

I never had a dawg in that fight so I just used reg leaded gas. Then, as they were phasing out leaded gas I just switched over to reg unleaded gas which was around 89 octane then. Now here, non-ethanol premium is about 91 octane. Premium therefore, is close to what reg non-ethanol used to be. I'm betting if you used an IR gun on the cylinders of saws run on AV fuel against saws run on non-ethanol pump gas....the AV fuel saws would run hotter. Anyone want to try that experiment?

When I was using leaded gas in chainsaws there was no particular coke or carbon problem...or "clinker". More important was getting your oil mix right for your saw and working conditions.

If you took the valve covers off car/truck engines run on Tetraethyl lead, you could see the lead deposits. Not a bad thing because the lead lubricated the valve train. Rebuilding car/truck carbs you could see the red deposits all inside your carb.....that was supposed to be the concentrated Tetraethyl lead.

Kevin

YellowHammer

Basically, what I'm saying is that aircraft engines have their fuel optimized specifically for them, and likewise, automotive engines have their fuels optimized for them. Boats utilize marine fuels specifically blended for them, also.  As a practice, (people can do what they want) I put marine fuel in my boat, auto fuel in my car, and if I owned one, my airplane would get aviation fuel.  Maybe I should also be feeding chainsaw fuel to my chainsaw, because it certainly seems to like it.

As with most things, the optimization of the fuel blend is a tradeoff based on its intended application.  Thats why I'm interested to know what is in the premixed chainsaw fuel, I'd like to know what additives are involved, and if it has the effect of improving apparent performance while reducing engine life.  Or maybe it will increase engine life.  I don't know, thats why I ask.

Does anybody know?   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Real1shepherd

Take whatever brand of non-ethanol farm store gas or premix product, go to their website and see the breakdown of ingredients. What I saw in there was not impressive for the price.

I think the canned premix products will run very clean in most all saws. I actually saw a vid of a saw before and after it had run about 4 tanks of the canned premix. All the carbon was excised out and things looked almost laboratory in there.

My problem is the price for what you get.


Kevin

nativewolf

Quote from: YellowHammer on May 23, 2021, 12:59:00 PM
Basically, what I'm saying is that aircraft engines have their fuel optimized specifically for them, and likewise, automotive engines have their fuels optimized for them. Boats utilize marine fuels specifically blended for them, also.  As a practice, (people can do what they want) I put marine fuel in my boat, auto fuel in my car, and if I owned one, my airplane would get aviation fuel.  Maybe I should also be feeding chainsaw fuel to my chainsaw, because it certainly seems to like it.

As with most things, the optimization of the fuel blend is a tradeoff based on its intended application.  Thats why I'm interested to know what is in the premixed chainsaw fuel, I'd like to know what additives are involved, and if it has the effect of improving apparent performance while reducing engine life.  Or maybe it will increase engine life.  I don't know, thats why I ask.

Does anybody know?  
I wish I knew too.  What I do know is that 93 octane ethanol fuel has caused issues with our CM saws.  
I've spent more money than I'd like to have spent on issues related to saws in the last year.  None since we moved to premix.  Why?
Liking Walnut

ehp

I'm not going to say why cause I'm sure the smarter people will tell you why and how come and say what my reason is wrong but I can say I do understand fuel and what does what , in the mid 90's I went to school to become a power eng. to work at one of the big fuel companies out west as my uncle was 3rd in command for the company . But the govt shut down all the places that refined fuel because of the danger as the city built all around them. What you need to think about is heat and what happens to the cylinder with heat , does the fuel evaporate, does the 2 stroke oil evaporate in the heat , will the CM richen up enough so the motor does not burn up , I run 94 octane fuel and klotz oringal techniplate  for oil at 40-1 and have zero trouble . Also what goes on in a 4 stroke motor does not work in a 2 stroke motor that does not have water in its engine block to help cool it down, chainsaw pretty much has a flywheel that blows air a cross the cylinder and what fuel/oil and how the carb or mtronic/autotune to keep it cool enough to live. Now I have ran some real good fuel in saws but its just way to costly when burning 2 to 5 gallons a day , sunoco makes a 110 octane fuel thats purple in color and thats stuff is very very good 

booman

My MS261C was hard to start when I first got it.  After a while, I noticed the lever when placed in choke would not stay there most of the time.  Pulled the cover off and found out that the ground wire for the kill position was too short and would pop the lever up to the run position.  I added a piece of wire to take the tension off of the lever and it helped because it kept it in the choke/start position.  Even after doing this I think it should start quicker than it does.  After all, it is a C.
2019 LT15G25WIDE, 2013 LT35HDG25, Stihl MS880 with 59" bar with Alaskan sawmill attachment.  John Deere 5045 tractor with forks, bucket and grapple.  Many chainsaws.

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