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Stihl 462CM Hard Cold Start

Started by YellowHammer, April 06, 2021, 08:09:48 AM

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YellowHammer

I've had this saw for a few months, use Stihl silver oil, unleaded non ethanol premium, and never let it run out of fuel.  It is the worst cold starting saw, and best hot starting saw I've ever owned.  Yesterday, it took 11 pulls from dead cold to start, and immediately after that, only 1/2 pull for the rest of the day.  I was literally about to throw it against the wall.  I have had Stihl saws all my my life and am very familiar with the normal Stihl carbureted staring sequence, but since this saw is electronic, none of my old Stihl starting techniques work.  

The dealership I bought it from doesn't have a computer to work on it, and the other place nearby has a computer but is backed up for many weeks because they are short of mechanics.  

I've done several successful calibration resets as described in the manual, and nothing seems to change.  So I'm trying to work through it myself, and one thing I've noticed is that during a cold start, which is always supposed to be done on this saw with the "choke" lever full down, when it tries to start cold, sometimes the choke lever stays full down, and sometimes it pops up to the run position, without me blipping the throttle or doing anything.

So, since this is a CM saw, and since the choke lever isn't really a choke, is it supposed to stay full down during a cold start, or is it supposed to pop up at some point on its own?  This level isn't really a choke, as far as I can tell, the instructions say its supposed to be down for starting, and stays down through recalibration on its own.  If the lever pops up during a cold start, and I try to start it that way, it simply will never start, I can pull it 20 time with no start with the lever up.

If anybody has any ideas, I'd like to check them out.  Otherwise, this saw will be on the trade in list. 

   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

trapper

3 years with my 261cm same thing dealer says nothing wrong acording to computor doc henderson had better results with his dealer.
stihl ms241cm ms261cm  echo 310 400 suzuki  log arch made by stepson several logrite tools woodmizer LT30

weimedog

Is it possible they respond as the Husqvarna Autotunes do? Easy to choke and flood? On a typical Autotune, choke for 3-4 pulls OR a pop. Which ever happens first, then turn choke off and don't touch the trigger so it stays in "high idle". Usually starts next pull. But pull five with the choke on with the Autotunes means another 5 at least.

And usually they don't need a computer on those. 
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

ehp

Put choke level down in lock like a choke level . Donot take it up to run spot . Pull rip cord and keep pulling until it's running . First run in morning leave saw running 20 to 30 seconds without hitting the throttle . That is how it sets the moronic to the temp of the day . All my 462 start 3 or 4 pulls cold . 

ehp

Once it's ran 20 to 30 seconds hit the trigger and your good to go 

YellowHammer

@ehp 
So with my saw, sometimes the choke lever comes up all by itself into run mode when starting cold, and that's the problem?  Mine seemingly does it more often than not.

Sometimes the choke lever stays down when starting and stays in choke mode during cranking and idle, but many times the lever comes up to run mode all by itself, without me hitting the throttle or anything.  I assumed the saw brain was telling the choke lever to release and come up to run mode automatically by itself.  

Yesterday it did it three times during the 11 pull cold start sequence.  I set the choke lever down, pulled the cord, the saw burped, died instantly and the choke lever had come up to the run position all by itself.

Then I reset the choke lever back down, pulled the cord a few times, the saw burped, and the choke lever had again come up to the run position, all by itself.  Then I set it into start mode again and finally on the third sequence the saw kept running.  Never once did I actually raise the lever from choke to run, the saw did it all by itself.     

it sounds like I may have a linkage or something inside that is causing the saw to come out of start mode into run mode all by itself.  I will look into it.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

I assume that my 362cm is supposed to function the same way as the 462.  ?? Of course assumptions and all that  . . . But . . . The lever stays down until it burps once the pops up by itself. Seems to me it's primed at that point. Next pull it usually starts and runs once it's burped and the lever has popped up. Occasionally takes two pulls to start but usually one after the burp. If I recall, there's an interim position between full choke and run where it stops by itself after the burp. (I may be remembering a different saw on that intermediate position thing - pollen's got me a little scrambled today.). Then pull, start,blip the trigger and it goes to the run position. Just reporting FWIW. It definitely conforms to what's in the manual as long as I do what they call for. 

I do find it primes faster when I don't use the comp release, but that seems like a predictable thing. 

Hope you get it sorted out. Frustrating when things don't start correctly.
HM126

ehp

You should take a look at your linkage and make sure dirt is wood chips have not gotten in there so your lever is not sitting correct inside or maybe the lever is damaged where uts to sit in the choke position.  It should sit there pretty solid and not come off on its own. I'm pretty sure that's why your saw is not starting correct . It's in the linkage.  

barbender

On my 261cm, it doesn't come out of the choke position until I hit the throttle.
Too many irons in the fire

axeman2021

Try this it works on my CMs, first with the choke on full give saw 4 hard starting  pulls then hold off around 30 seconds, raise choke lever to the run Pos. give it two hard starting pulls then set choke back to full choke again start giving saw hard starting pulls when saw fires off the chain brake and give it a blip then it's ready to start cutting logs.

This has worked for me it's just for the first cold starting not for a hot restart.

Hope it will work for your CM saw.

Old saw fixer

     @YellowHammer - Have you resolved your hard start problem? 
Stihl FG 2, 036 Pro, 017, HT 132, MS 261 C-M, MSA 140 C-B, MS 462 C-M, MS 201 T C-M
Echo CS-2511T, CS-3510
Logrite Cant Hook (with log stand), and Hookaroon

YellowHammer

Nope, I'm going to get rid of it unless a miracle happens. I played with the linkage and got it where the start lever stays on when it starts.  So that's been fixed.  It wasn't seated on the slot correctly.

I ran the saw yesterday a little, maybe three tanks of gas, it started on the 9th pull when dead cold, then only 1/2 pull after that. It starts incredibly easy when hot or warm.  

I went out this morning, 60F, it started on the 12th pull.  Totally unacceptable. As soon as it cranks and runs, I can immediately shut it off, and it will start first pull, even mostly cold.

I put in a new spark plug last week, no noticeable difference.  I can't get it worked on for weeks, and the quickest solution is to buy a different saw and trade this or Craigslist it.

My 661 fired up third pull this morning.  

I tried the below procedure also, it doesn't seem to help much, although I'm glad it was posted.  I use this saw pretty much everyday.  I don't understand why it sitting overnight causes such a hard start issue when it runs so well.  It's really a sweet running saw, but the beginning of a day cold start issue is intolerable.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

btulloh

It kinda sounds like a slow priming issue for whatever reason. Seems like once it's primed it's ok. Maybe one of the saw gurus has an idea on that. 
HM126

Magicman

Just a guess but the hot shutdown may be boiling the carburetor dry, same as running out of fuel would do.    With the cold startup you are having to completely "prime" the entire fuel system before it starts.

I sorta wish that my MS362 had a primer bulb.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

That may be, its like the fuel system is empty and I have to prime it by pulling it several times.  So this afternoon, after letting it sit for most of the day, I cranked it on pull 6.  As I mentioned, as soon as it hits, I can immediately shut it off, and it will restart first pull.  At that point, it's still basically dead cold, but has fuel all the way to the cylinder, and will start immediately.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

axeman2021

This was the reason i give it 4 pulls first to prime the system on a cold first start.

YellowHammer

Are they hard pulls, or just slow pull throughs?  So you are using 6 pulls to get it primed?   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Tacotodd

Is it feasible to manually prime it every day before you use it? 

Because it's sounding like that's your only choice at this stage of the game, then you might take it to have it looked at by a dealer. If/when you do that, be sure to take it in unstarted for the day and let him see your issue.
Trying harder everyday.

Southside

No idea if it will help with a puter controlled saw, but on my 372's when they are cold I will slow roll the cord out for several pulls, maybe 3 at most 4.  It's not a pull at all, literally just rolling over the piston to prime the cylinder.  It will never start this slow, just clunk, clunk, clunk, absolutely no shoulder effort.  I do it with the decomp pressed in and the choke out.  Then give it one regular pull, and it comes to life enough to pop out the decomp lever.  Second pull and they are always running.

I watch guys pull, pull, pull, faster, faster, faster - I feel no need to break a sweat starting a saw.  Way too many other things I need to accomplish that will fulfill that need.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
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Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

thecfarm

I do that with my 372 also. 
I just bought a 450 husky. That thing will just about fire on the third pull and that is a easy pull too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ehp

you using the decompressure on the saw, I never use it on any of my 462s 

YellowHammer

Sometimes I use the compression release. sometimes not.

I called Stihl USA, the mothership, and had a good conversation with the tech rep.  Basically, he thinks I've got a fuel starvation issue, and am losing prime.  I didn't disagree. Also, since I've had my saw more than 3 months, and I'm a business, its out of warranty, which was a surprise to me.  I thought it had a two year warranty, but I was mistaken.  So I'm on my own, so to speak. Even a dealer diagnostics test costs money out of my pocket at this point, so now I'm looking at this in a new light.  

He suggested I could shotgun the problem, and I should sequentially replace the fuel filter, air filter, spark plug, carburetor, fuel line and finally the solenoid.  Yeah, right.  I told him I may as well replace the entire saw.  He also suggested I take it to my nearby John Deere dealership, apparently they are authorized dealers and repair facilities and have the proper training and computers, whereas other dealers, like mine where I bought the saw, don't or may not have the depth of knowledge or the equipment.  We discussed this option, which I wasn't really aware of, and I agree that it's probably best to take it to a service facility where they have professional mechanics working on tractor engines, vs at a hardware store where the mechanic may not be as experienced.  This opens up repair options for me, as I have a Deere dealer not to far away.  I called them and they do have repair equipment but couldn't give me an estimated turn around time for the repairs.

So after that conversation, I decided it was up to me to try the simple stuff, and just go through the saw as any other unwarranted piece of equipment I own, and try to diagnose and fix the problems myself.  I uploaded a useful semi diagnostic document on the internet from Stihl that helped me understand the Mtronic system a little better, and I went through the saw from stem to stern and found a wire that was loose and a few other things.  I disconnected and reconnected electrical connections, any fuel lines I could reach, tightened every nut and bolt I could find, and fiddled with anything else I could play with, because at this point, I sure don't need to worry about voiding the warranty.  My air filter was clean, but had a little oil in it, from the inside.  I'm not sure what that means, if anything.  

After playing with it for awhile, and buttoning everything back up, it cranked on the third pull, cold, which was surprising to me.  It's never done that before.  I'll check tomorrow and see if it's fixed, or was just teasing me.

I have called around and found a shop that's about 2 hours away that has 500i chainsaws and doesn't take trades, which wasn't a good option, and another shop about the same distance in the other direction that has several 500i's in stock that does take trades, but, (nothing is easy) their saws were shipped without mufflers, for emissions reasons the guy said, and they have been waiting about 2 months for the mufflers to arrive.  So that's a better scenario, and I need to get this saw either running smoothly until they come in and trade it off, or put it on the shelf and pick up another saw, until someone has a 500i and takes trades.  I don't want to Craigslist it off, because I don't want to do that to an unwary buyer, and sell my problem to them.  

This is a really nice saw to use, I like it, or I wouldn't still be putting effort into it, but I just have to work through the cold start issue.    

Anyways, I learned a few things, so the process continues.    
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Tacotodd

Be sure and reply back. We're interested to know what you find.
Trying harder everyday.

barbender

You'd think they'd make the effort to stand behind something like that, it's just good business. Pretty disappointing I'm sure😡
Too many irons in the fire

mike_belben

@nativewolf has had some mtronic woes too.  


Im thoroughly talked out of that whole high tech mess. 
Praise The Lord

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