New here, questions about obtaining logs

[BeeGuy]

Hey yall!

First of all, I'm new to the logging industry so I'll apologize in advance for being ignorant with some of these questions.

So location wise, I'm in Northwest Arkansas.

I understand there are three primary ways of obtaining logs:
1. I cut it down myself (stumpage)
2. It's already been cut and skidded to the edge of the road
3. It's mill ready and delivered by semi or logging trailer

So my first question is, what are the different prices I should expect to see currently and realistically for pine logs for each of the three methods above?

Next, does anyone have any contacts for this area that I can acquire logs from?

Finally, a two part question:
1. If I order a load of sawlogs to be delivered and I have an excavator, a skidsteer, and a moffett would they even deliver or would I need a big wheeled unloader?
2. Upon delivery is there anything you guys would inspect the logs for, or is it simply just you get what you get by the ton?

Thanks in advance!

[kiko]

The single most important thing when buying timber IMO is following your states rules on chain of custody/origin of the timber.  

[BeeGuy]

@kiko is this what you are referring to? Section 4.2 Chain of Custody System.

https://www.asean.org/storage/images/archive/AMAF%2032%20ASEAN_Guidelines_for_Legal__Sustainable_Timber-%20final.pdf

If so, where would I need to go to find my states specific rules and guidelines for CoC/origin?

[kiko]

I did not read all that but it seems to be more about sustainable forestry practices. I does however touch on the point I am trying to make and that is, you DON'T want to buy stolen timber. And I promise you it will be available.

[mike_belben]

Youll have to lift about 14 ft to clear the bunks.  With grapple forks and a pad for the skid loader you might be okay.  The excavator can push logs over that the SS cant reach, if theres room on both sides. 

[BeeGuy]

@kiko point taken, thanks for the tip. I appreciate it!

@mike_belben we have a hydraulic thumb on the excavator as well it's a volvo ecr88. I'll have to check the specs on it but I think it'll work from what I remember.

[Southside]

So grade will make a big difference in what logs cost.  Around here a #3 pine log will fetch $100 / MBF - meaning it should have gone for pulp because I don't want it, and there better not be many on a load or the price drops to "come and get your fiber that I am not buying".  I pay an SGU for 16" small end minimum diameter, clean 4 sides, butt logs only, that have a centered pith and tight grain.  Those are my flooring / interior clean wood logs.  For good #1 logs - 16'6", 12" diameter, clean 4 sides, right now I am at $250 / MBF, all prices delivered to the mill.  

I have never run a Moffett, but having seen them operate I am not sure I would want to be unloading 16' pine logs off a log trailer with one.  A log gets away from you and truck cab parts get expensive.  Same thought on the skid steer, you need to be able to back away from the trailer with the load in the air, that might get sketchy in the wrong conditions.  I am not sure a bucket and thumb on an excavator is going to work well either, that curled boom is designed to dig, yes you can lift, but the arch is going to be tricky.  It's going to reach out as it goes up so you will have to track back to not force a log into the opposite side bunks.  Now if you put a grapple onto the end of the stick so you can better fish out a log - maybe guys would be OK with that, maybe.   

[barbender]

We wouldn't send one of our trucks to be unloaded by any of the options you listed. An excavator with a thumb is handy for digging stumps and stuff, but they are far too clumsy to unload a truck with. If you put an actual log grapple on it, it would be doable.

[barbender]

Btw, welcome and no need to apologize for asking questions. While I don't agree with the oft repeated phrase, "there are no stupid questions", none of your's are even approaching that, and the questions and answers that follow are what this place is built on.  Also, Southside is dropping some pretty heavy Forum lingo on you with the "SGU", that stands for "Standard Goat Unit" and equals $300 U.S. dollars, although that may be subject to change due to inflation😁

Small millers in the South have it kinda tough being that a self loading log truck is like hen's teeth in that region. Up here I'd guess half of the trucks have a loader.

[Southside]

Technically the SGU is the oldest form of crypto currency. Been around a LOT longer 
than Bitcoin, lot of history there involving a Post Hole and possibly a Bartender.

The only real drawback that the SGU has is that it tends to be unstable as we have recently seen.   :D

[BeeGuy]

Now my curiosity is peaked. Is the SGU simply a market that fluctuates up and down and the price you pay per mbf is whatever the spot price is at time of delivery (always around $300)? 

So it sounds as if a new attachment (toy) for the excavator is coming soon. Or I just bite the bullet and get the big wheeled lift, we could use one anyways for other stuff. Thanks for yall's input there. 

@Southside I'm pretty familiar with grade (#1, #2, #3) after it has already been cut, kiln dried, and ready to go for processing however, how do you tell grade when its still a log? I'm sure that's a good question for google as well, but I already started typing it here first. I'll check there too. 

@Southside Just to clarify, pulp is any log that is not straight? Is that correct?

[mike_belben]

Pulp is any log that wont make a grade that pays better than pulp mills will buy at.  It can take some conversion figuring and weighing money now vs money later plus processing inputs.

Basically tree length firewood.


If you good something like log grading, log scaling or sawlog defects  .pdf youll surely find high level publications.  My old phone had several in memory and its where i started.  Each mill you sell to will tune you up to their specifics if you ask the scaler.  Most are helpful as they want good logs especially in times like these with demand on fire.  The product dictates the specifics.  Different end product, different input specs. 

[Southside]

The SGU has held it's conversion value pretty consistently.  Although the first Bitcoin purchase was a pizza, the first SGU purchase was for an outhouse - and from the photos it was a danG nice one too.  

Think of pulp as being "character" or "slab" logs. You will want to develop a very good eye for looking at logs if you are going to buy and grade them.  A "straight" log is a completely different animal to the average landowner than it is to a sawmill operator.  Knots, bark inclusion, cat faces, and other defects become something you need to spot from 20' away when you are paying for logs.  

[barbender]

I have what I believe is a USDA log grade handbook somewhere. It gives the specs for grading logs. I wouldn't know how to actually determine #1, 2, and 3 hardwood logs. But my main job is running a forwarder for a large logging outfit, we don't do much for grading it's pretty much size classification and whether it can be sawn or not. Honestly, most of our stuff goes to a pallet mill,as we typically don't get enough large diameter (over 10" top) that is good enough quality to make it worth sorting for the grade mills that exist. However, in my job capacity I often will sort wood that I buy off the job myself. I just did a big pine job where we cut a lit of 16' logs. I didn't buy any because these trees must've been pretty open grown, with lots of 2" knots. I don't know what grade that would make but I do know a lot of the lumber that comes out of them is not great.

[Southside]

FWIW bull pine goes right to #3 around here.  There is no lumber to be had out of those.  

[Tacotodd]

I've heard that term before, so, what's bull pine?

[Southside]

A pine that grew out in the open. Heavy limbs way down low, wide growth rings,
picture a pine in the middle of an open field. Looks like a Christmas tree. The knots
tend to be unstable and split or fall out on top of already being a problem to begin with. 

[Tacotodd]

Now I know 

[BeeGuy]

So I guess the next question that this all leads into is, when I'm calling for a load of logs how does that look?

For example, I'm used to working with 1"x12"x16' or 1"x12"x8' #2 yellow, white, ponderosa you name it. So here are my questions:

First, is there "someone" in the area I would typically type into google to find a logging yard? Anytime I try looking I find plenty of mills but I can't seem to find a place to get just logs from?

Second, when talking to someone who sells logs by the truck load, (I'm assuming) just like rock quarries, logging companies have a pricing sheet for standard logs they typically keep on hand, correct?

Finally, how does that conversation look? I'm so and so, wanting a truck load of #1 logs - 16'6", 12" diameter, clean 4 sides, delivered to such and such address?

I don't mind picking up the phone to call whoever I need to talk to and ask all these questions either, I'm just trying to figure it all out is all.

[Southside]

Ok - so let's back up for a moment.  I am presuming you own a mill, kiln, some means to straight line your lumber, and a planer or moulder? What is your end goal for purchasing logs?

At the end of the day buying logs is more about a relationship than anything else.  Logging companies don't have a price sheet - mills do, the logging contractor can decide if they will accept the price the mill is offering.  Logs, especially pine, are a perishable commodity so logging outfits don't keep much "on hand".  They will have some on a landing waiting to truck, but those already have a home.  You might be able to poach a load here and there if you pay the right price and develop a rapport with the logger. 

Most big outfits are comfortable selling pine logs by the ton, that's what they do.  If it's plantation pine it's almost all sold that way.  Natural regen, in the right market place, can go either way - stick scale or ton.  Again - it's all about the relationship.  If the buyer has a reputation of having a short stick -then he better pay a higher price to be able to get the grade logs.  

You are not going to get all 1x12's out of a log, some logs won't give you a single one worth having - too many hidden knots that don't reveal themselves until the log has been opened up.  So you need a market for everything else that will come out of those logs.   

[BeeGuy]

@Southside for a mill I'm looking at the WM LT40, kiln will be built with the nyle l200, still looking for a good straight line rip and double sided planer. We run all grizzly equipment for production. Supplier is not an issue, that's me. We currently run through about 40-50k bf a year. We use 2x2, 2x4, 1x6, 1x7, and 1x10 in all finished products, so we have a wide enough range and enough of a justification to expand into learning about logging. This past year, if nothing else, has taught us that. It doubled our costs, as yall are all aware I'm sure. 

I'm not looking for something overnight of course, just something I can gradually learn and slowly transition into our current supply chain. That being said, understanding the logs themselves is the important part to me and how far back we want our operation to be integrated. Cutting the trees down is pretty far back, I'm not sure there is enough time in the day for that for our current state, but having them delivered is another story. I just don't know how to do that and what to look for in the logs themselves. 

@barbender I found that USDA log grade handbook online and read it. That was rough.  I have a lot of language to learn when it comes to defects in wood. I also ran across the NHLA rules handbook I just started reading. Not to mention, countless youtube vids on guys going over how to grade lumber. It seems like a lot of the guys tend to say just worry about either the tonnage or bf based on the doyle and international log scale (whichever the supplier uses). Does that sound about right?

Hopefully that clarifies my position a little and why I'm trying to learn all this @Southside 

[bannerd]

Talk to the logger and see what equipment they have.  Most of the time they have a spare log loader they could drop off at your site if the business is good.

[Southside]

Well, I can see where your thought process is coming from, but not sure I agree with your conclusion.  50K BF is a lot of lumber, but it's really not.  11 tractor trailer loads a year, call it one a month.  For that you will have what $200K invested.  Someone will need to run the equipment, and get good at becoming a sawyer, kiln operator, planer man, and MAINTENANCE person.  Don't forget about sharpening bands and blades.  Logging your own would add a whole 'nother dimension.  How will the ROI look when prices come down say 35%-50%?

Is there a mill around you can buy rough sawn lumber from?  Already meets the grade you need, don't have to worry about getting rid of waste product, it's on stickers and air drying.  Then focus on adding value through your kiln and planer.  

[BeeGuy]

@bannerd good tip, I'll do some calling.

@southside Yes, working with the local mills to supply us (which they can) is the first plan. They've got what we need and can keep up with our supply. To your point, it would be foolish to jump all in unless this was a hobby and I had money to burn. For conversation's sake, just assume we can manage from planer man on. Sawyer and Kiln operator are the two steps I'm still trying to understand. However, before that, I want to understand the process on the logs to even see if it's worth the investment. If I can't understand that, then there's no need to buy the equipment needed to process the logs.

[btulloh]

Also worth checking to see if there's accumulation yard operation nearby.  They can be more flexible (and higher priced) but they might be able to accommodate your needs.  They also know most of the smaller loggers and guys with self-loaders and such and may steer you to some useful contacts.

[mike_belben]

it is wise to study all aspects, but do remember to go slow in murky water.  its not possible to learn in a month what you can in a year.  the faster you make these decisions, the more learning you will do after the money has been spent, that youll wish you did before it was.  no matter how obsessively i try to learn a new thing, i can never learn it all in one bout.  theres always more down the road in the months and years to come. i know thats really generic, but let the murky water settle a few times before you dive in. 

this market bubble is gonna wipe out nearly all of the impulsive new entrants. you may want to see just how much more affordable distress sale equipment can be.  i could probably fill at least one semi of distress sale stuff that was tossed in free when i came to buy one cheap machine.  
'must empty lease space by...' are the magic words. 


i would highly suggest you cut and slice a few trees into lumber from stump to stickers before laying out big money, for an education.  even if you can just help someone alaskan mill one yard tree on a saturday, it will be a learning experience.  dissection is how medical students learn right?  it will give you an eye for whats under that bark you are buying. and an awareness of how much more low grade fiber comes out than really clean prime wood. if youre gonna buy logs you need to have a means to do something with everything that comes out and there is a lot!  burn piles are not a good solution.  and neither is building the material handling systems after they are piled 12feet high in every nook of your work space.  i bet a lot of old veteran sawyers, if they could go back in time, would buy the blowers and gravity conveyors and hoppers and banding gear before the mill.  a fast mill is pointless if it feeds into a giant bottleneck.  bottlenecks are easier solved by not building them in the first place, than by fixing them after the fact, in the middle of production demands and appointments and promises.  

[stavebuyer]

Your best bet for the logs would be a good gooseneck trailer and a fat checkbook to buy exactly what you want off the landing. You only want "veneer grade" logs in specific lengths so you will need to pay double or triple the going rate and that will be dirt cheap compared to becoming your own "logger". Any tree you or anyone else cuts is going to contain logs that won't meet your criteria that will need to dealt with and any other sawmill buying logs will not appreciate loads with all the prime material skimmed off.

A better plan would be to take the same fat checkbook and trailer and work the process backwards one step at a time from the finished lumber you are now buying. Right now the "numbers" may look favorable but base your projections on historical averages. Odds are the numbers from building your specialty item are far better than any aspect of pine lumber logging/sawing/drying/processing operation.

If you require 4 side clear logs in specific lengths then you probably are wanting mostly clear lumber. Even the best logs are going to produce some shorter and lesser grades of lumber. What will happen with that lumber? If you need 1k ft a week for your own use than you need to up the scale about double the capacity to cover all the lumber you will saw that won't fit your needs as well as a plan to sell it. At your scale it won't be wholesale; it will be a shelf board at a time and the wonderful world of retail dealing with John Q Public on your property.

Appearance may or may not be a factor but be advised that logs and lumber stain in a very short period of time in the summer and bugs love to munch on fresh pine logs

[kantuckid]

Wade in slowly.  ;D Do what your doing and also learn what to ask next after you know more. 

Look at the AR state forestry organization to see what sort of lists they have of loggers, foresters, mills-any type of wood processing companies near you. SE KS, NE OK, or SW MO may also ne close enough to consider for your location. In my state KY there is an online listing of Master Loggers who have certification for best practices. The friendly log buyer at a mill can tell you what brings what delivered to them. Several loggers in my area have a mill plus they sell logs to wherever the best choice happens to be-price, haul distance and such. The log concentration yards around me dont sell logs back to others as far as I've ever heard. I have got free cutoff at one big one, especially in summer when the guy who works there isn't taking them home for firewood. Got some nice bowl blanks, etc., that way.  
In the past, prior to owning my mill, I bought a log on site from smaller mills and told them how I wanted it sawed and often off-beared the wood for them in doing the instructions on saw out. I've picked up freebie logs from several construction sites over the years, they often burn stuff I'm glad to have if it's not been actually logged by a pro first before the road crew came in.  Not all will like that but those you know well will not mind. My nearest mill now doesn't buy or sell logs or lumber to individuals. Their loggers work for them as independent contractors, tally the logs as they come in and pay on several points of measure so both parties get along OK. Most of the timber they work in belongs to the sole owner of the mill and much land where they often work. They do some limited cuts on other private lands as the NF is mostly unavailable lately here. 
The web is full of local logs for sale to the village idiot. Get to a happy place so you know what to buy. I'll say this again-I see on FB in the Woodmizer Group that seemingly everybody and his brother is buying a sawmill during covid. Daily comments on cutting natural edged slabs and cookies. Lots of folks who don't know logging, tree species or end uses, much less how to harvest or process trees, lumber etc.. It just seems premature to my mindset to buy a mill or whatever prior to know much of the basics. I mean this in a kind logical way, not trying for gotcha stuff at all. WM is way behind on new mill deliveries right now as an e.g. of part of what I'm saying. 
In my own case I worked in wood a long, long time-as in many years- before I had a wood shop, owned my own timber or a sawmill.
The logger who I'm buying EWP wall logs from can sell his logs to a major buyer at a distance, or saw my logs and make and extra $ off me and have less road time and fuel expense. He'll deliver to me on a gooseneck  as my FEL won't handle a large log trucks bunk height plus once they are sawed I wont tolerate them be buggered up anyway! If I bought the raw logs delivered then I'd have a how to unload issue plus be sawing them on my mill in largeish quantity at an age (PM me for a laundry list of what's worn out on my body :D)  where sometimes you gotta pick yer parties, especially with a manual sawmill!