Help identifying a tree

[Full Circle]

I did a pre-milling site visit just north of me (Mid-Hudson Valley, New York) and the homeowner and I can't identify one of the trees slated for removal and potential milling.  I thought of the mystery tree last week and asked the homeowner if he would like me to put a few pictures on the forum to see if we could get some help.  He graciously supplied the below pictures.

A little background:  the home was built in in the early 1800's (if I remember correctly) and originally served as a gatehouse to a large estate.  The tree is fairly close to the house, leading me to believe it may have been planted as an ornamental.  I have much to learn about tree identification, but more importantly, it would be nice for my customer if we can figure out what he's got.  Thanks for looking.



 

The bark has large, flat, thick plates


 



 



 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Looks like some kind of White Pine to me.  say_what

[WDH]

Given where you are located, it is probably red pine, Pinus resinosa.  The needles should be in bundles of twos.  White pine will have needles in bundles of five.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=110

[thecfarm]

No way white pine with cones that small this time of year. They are about 4 inches long now. I think WDH is right. I have some on my land,but in the woods and not all that old. The bark is no wheres near as rough. I sawed some out for my veggie shark. Not happy with the way the 8X8's twisted when I put them up. I sawed out an 3X8 and that would make a great ski.I went back to hemlock.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

SWEET GUM  :D

[dgdrls]

I'm with WDH  I believe Red Pine,
Count the needles, will confirm

DGDrls former Poughkeepsie-ite. ;)

[thecfarm]

Poughkeepsie,I really like that place. One main street,everything on the left or right. Drove around in the old part too. Did not like the walking bridge.

[dgdrls]

..Farm  you mean the old RR crossing just north of the Mid-Hudson Bridge?

Was an old crossing when I was there, some clown from King of Prussia, PA made a claim it belonged to him.
The RR should of said fine take it,  along with all the headaches.

I haven't been back in over 20 years. 

DGDrls

[thecfarm]

ayup. I suppose the city ? made it into a walking bridge. That is some HIGH and LONG. Seem like 14 feet wide too.

[Axe Handle Hound]

I say Austrian pine.  The bark just isn't right for red pine. 

[Okrafarmer]

I say Austrian pine.  The bark just isn't right for red pine.

That is what I concluded too, before seeing you say this. It is an ornamental, so that seems likely. It is not a native species. If it is unusual for your area, then this is a neat tree to add to your list of species you have milled, and I will be curious to hear how the lumber turns out.


2 needles per bundle, 3-6" needles, cones 2-3".

[Full Circle]

Thanks for the replies.
Not many admit their from Poughkeepsie, DgDris. ;D  They were building the "walkway over the Hudson," as it's called, during the "crash" of 2008.  Made me scratch my head a bit at the time.  Anyway, I'm about ten miles east of there.  There are even a few farms (or, at least, pastures) left around me, here.

As far as the tree, I was thinking red pine, but, like Axe Handle said, the plates and fissures aren't like any red pine I've worked with.  Some were bigger diameter than this, but not yard trees.  Could a yard tree be that different than a forest grown tree as far as the bark is concerned?  The red pines I milled had bark that looks more like the bark on the surface of the plates in the picture.  We'll get a good look at the needles, though.  I'll have to look up Austrian Pine.

Thanks again.  Next time anybody's in Poughkeepsie, let me know!   

[Okrafarmer]

Austrian pine links include:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_nigra

http://ohiodnr.com/forestry/trees/pine_austrian/tabid/5406/Default.aspx

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=106


Wiki says the Austrian Pine is likely to become exterminated by disease in the US.

[beenthere]

Next time anybody's in Poughkeepsie, let me know!

I was there the summer of '62, heading for the Harvard Black Rock Forest just north of West Point.
Studying some forest trees fertilized in the 30's. Still remember the train ride along the Hudson and the white '62 Chevy Impala convertible that I rented for a couple weeks.
8)

If you are cutting that tree, a count of the rings for age would be great. I'd guess it was planted within the last 50 years, and could be a scotch pine ( or similar ornamental). Seems the nursery's were pedaling them in the 50's and 60's.

[SwampDonkey]

Bark is too gray for red pine, should be reddish. Also, not all that great of a form for red pine. But then again that hardwood is putting a hurt on it to. Probably Austrian. Scots would have orangey bark and short needles.

[Chuck White]

Thanks for the replies.
Not many admit their from Poughkeepsie, DgDris. ;D  They were building the "walkway over the Hudson," as it's called, during the "crash" of 2008.  Made me scratch my head a bit at the time.  Anyway, I'm about ten miles east of there.  There are even a few farms (or, at least, pastures) left around me, here.

As far as the tree, I was thinking red pine, but, like Axe Handle said, the plates and fissures aren't like any red pine I've worked with.  Some were bigger diameter than this, but not yard trees.  Could a yard tree be that different than a forest grown tree as far as the bark is concerned?  The red pines I milled had bark that looks more like the bark on the surface of the plates in the picture.  We'll get a good look at the needles, though.  I'll have to look up Austrian Pine.

Thanks again.  Next time anybody's in Poughkeepsie, let me know!

I think it's Red Pine.

The overall shape of the tree is that of Red Pine, but it could be something else.

A yard tree is subject to lots of abuse, by someone backing a vehicle into it, mowing close to it, NAILS, kids hacking on it with their little hatchets, the list is almost endless.

[Ron Wenrich]

My thought was a pitch pine.  It could be a volunteer from an earlier time. 

[chep]

I guess Jack pine. Pinus banksiana... what its not: White pine, Scots pine, sweetgum ;D

Jack pines cones have spikes. you cannot squeeze one in your hand.
Red pines needles snap when you bend them
Austrian pines needles will not snap, they will bend right back to their original form

good luck, let us know

[Okrafarmer]

The several sources I looked at said that Austrian pine is often mistaken for red pine, but I am still holding onto Austrian, based on the bark. Get a hold of those needles, and see if they break off crisply. If they do, it's red pine. As far as I know, no other pine in New York will do that. If they don't break off clean, I still vote for Austrian.

[Jeff]

My bet would be Austrian. It has very poor form for Red. We see a lot of red pine plantations around here.

[clww]

My guess is Austrian or Pitch Pine. We have gobs of these gnarly looking examples up in our mountains of VA.

[SwampDonkey]

Pitch pine has needles in three. Red pine needles break cleanly, but are also finely  serrated (serrulate).

[Full Circle]

Sorry for the gap in responding....didn't have time this morning and just got to sit in front of the computer now.

Thanks to all for the input.  Sounds like the needles will be a key to identification.  I'll send a link to this thread to the homeowner.  He's familiar with the forum and will appreciate all of the feedback.  Since a tree company will be dropping the trees, he'll have to either be there or ask them to save him a branch with needles.  Otherwise the branches will all end up in the chipper and we'll never be sure.

Thank you, again.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Jeff, Bear in mind that Michigan and the other lake states grow probably the best Red pine in the USA.
I have seen yard trees that I swear are Red pine that look that bad.
Also, I have seen RP here in NY on poor soils that look like the bark in the pic.
Cheers pete

[Too Big To Fail]

howdy neighbor,
I'm just a bit west of you, over "the gunks" off of 209.  I've heard that called pitch pine, but maybe that's more of a general term. ?