This is why I really have to wonder about Woodmaster...

[Osric]

I called Woodmaster today and had an experience that I thought I'd share.

I think we can agree that the economy sucks and that most businesses would be LOOKING for business, but evidently Woodmaster doesn't follow that type of business model.

I've been thinking for a while about getting a Planer/molder (as I've mentioned here in the past) and lo and behold I look in the local classifieds yesterday and see a WM 18 for sale for $1,000.  I've been saving up and have that much tucked away...cool beans.  I call the seller and he says that it is about 10 years old, unused in the last 5 and is just the planer itself...no pro-pak, no extras.  I'm going off to take a look at it in about an hour.

But I want the accessories for molding/sanding/ripsaw, so I give WM a call and talk to a salesman.  I ask him if I can buy the Propak separately and he hems and haws and says that he can put something together that will work out to be less than the list prices for the individual components, but that the deals in the website are for buying both the planer and propak together... (I had mentioned that I was going to buy a used WM)  When I ask for a price, he then asks how much I was going to pay for the used WM.

This struck me too close to the type of question of "How much do you have to spend" type question...you know, the kind of question you get from a salesman who is trying to size you up and not leave any money on the table.  I said (politely), "I'd rather not give out that information."  He says, "OK," and then hangs up.

Are you frakin' kidding me?  I don't want to tell you how much I pay for a piece of used equipment and you frakin' hang up on me????



I know WM gets good reviews, and I will probably still buy the one I'm going to look at today (unless it is a piece of junk), and I know there are one or two people here who have had personal contact with the company.  Here is my request to you...next time you see/talk to someone at WM, relate to them this story, smack them uplong side the head and yell, "SALES IS ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!"

I've called them a couple times, and I honestly can't think of a single time where I've been happy at the end of a phone call.  Confused, yes.  Annoyed, yes.  *pithed off, yes.  Happy?  Not a once. 

Is it really any wonder why people have stopped buying from US firms? 

[Dan_Shade]

I think that their sales literature is misleading.  It has to be.  There is no way it can be that easy to make a machine pay for itself.  that only works if you work for free....

I did a spreadsheet up on flooring runs with a woodmaster a few years ago, it would take days to run the boards through the planer for a thousand feet of flooring if I remember correctly....

[Warbird]

If you have the guy's name, you could do the market a favor and express your opinion to his boss.

[Tom]

Osric, I understand your ire.  Insensitive sales people make me mad too. You gotta be careful about using initials when your mad though.  Look on the left side of the page and you will find that WM might represent someone other than Wood Master.

I've found that it's sometimes prudent to get names and call back to see if I get the same service from a different person.   IT might be the salesman that is at fault and it might  be that those feelings are perpetuated throughout the organization by a higher up.

The written word is powerful.  I don't mean the post that is put in a forum,  I mean the letter that you write to the President of the company, showing you dissatisfaction.   Those kinds of letters generally shouldn't say "I'm never doing business with you again", if you expect them to change.   But, they should tell it like it is.

[ronwood]

I have not had any good experiences with the sales staff.

All I better say at this time.

Ron

[isawlogs]

That would have me reconcidering the sale .... bigtime 

[Ed]

Before I bought my new 38" drumsander, I was looking at a used one. I called them with the machine serial number to verify age, etc.
The salesman told me when it was bought, by who & how much they paid. He also asked what the price was, so I told him. His reply was "fair price if it's in excellent shape."

I'm guessing he was looking out for your interests more than you think. He could have been trying to inform you of the price difference between all new equipment & used machine with some new stuff. Or told you that you were getting hosed.

My thoughts are you over-reacted.

Since the owner is a member and a sponsor here, I suggest you contact him directly if you still feel you were treated wrong.

willj@timberking.com


Ed

[Osric]

My thoughts are you over-reacted.


Ed

Not sure how I could have over-reacted by politely telling him that I'd rather not say how much I was going to pay for a piece of equipment that was used and not being purchased from him.  He was the one who hung up, not me.



Took a look at the machine tonight and it looks to be in good shape.  He had some accessories, but nothing labeled and he hasn't used it much (it came with the house he bought).  Looks to me like it has the accessory bar, the knife holder, the drum sander and MAYBE the ripsaw attachments (but no saws).  He said I could also take the stack of wood that has been sitting in the garage for 5 years...probably only a couple hundred bd ft., but free wood is free wood.

While talking to him, I mentioned the 'conversation' I had with woodmaster.  He nodded his head and said that he tried calling them once to get some information on the machine that was sitting in his garage and they were pretty rude to him.  He said it was one of the reasons why he decided to sell it (that and he's only planed a half dozen boards since he bought the house.)

Since it is coming with pretty much everything I want (except knives), I'm going to go pick it up this weekend.  Over Christmas, I may try building one of those tables I saw posted on the board a few months back so I can make my own knives.

[Kansas]

To my knowledge, Will Johnson is still president of Timberking, which makes Woodmaster machines. Having owned one of their earliest talon edgers, I talked with him a number of times. He always made sure I was well taken care of. I would suggest you call Timberking and ask for Will. Tell him of your experiences. My guess is you will have your problems taken care of immediately. I haven't dealt with the Woodmaster side of the business, but I can't imagine him not taking care of what you need.

[brdmkr]

I have the 18" machine and I am pretty satisfied with it.  I would not want to run a large flooring job through it, but the pruduction can actually be pretty decent for running molding.  I aggree that some of their ads make it seem that making a 6-figure income with their machines is common, but I knew that would not be the case when I bought the planer. 

[oakiemac]

I have the 718 and it is all right. I cant give it great reviews but it doesnt suck either. Overall it is a pretty light weight, light duty machine. I have talked to the factory a few times and have had good service. It sounds like maybe you got cut off or some thing but who knows maybe you caught someone on a bad day.

[logwalker]

I can't defend their response but I don't see the harm in telling him what the asking price was for a used machine that they built. Why did you feel that was an inappropriate request? Maybe he didn't like the way you responded. Communication is a delicate art.  ??? Joe

[Jeff]

To my knowledge, Will Johnson is still president of Timberking, which makes Woodmaster machines. Having owned one of their earliest talon edgers, I talked with him a number of times. He always made sure I was well taken care of. I would suggest you call Timberking and ask for Will. Tell him of your experiences. My guess is you will have your problems taken care of immediately. I haven't dealt with the Woodmaster side of the business, but I can't imagine him not taking care of what you need.

Thats for sure. Call them back and ask for Will. You can talk right to the President of the company. I don't know of many companies where that can happen. He'll want to know and want to help.

[Meadows Miller]

That would have me reconcidering the sale .... bigtime 

Same Goes Here Isawlogs
I know one company that has an agent downhere that costs himself and them sales bigtime as he wont supply parts/upgrades two second owners only to the original owner as i have heard that he treats people who have brought a secondhand mill like they have done him outa money  : I know this bloke personaly as I used to do the instalations for him for a while  and still think he is a Tool and being a S.A$$ dosent help him either He has asked me affew times why I dont buy a new mill from him and i say i can buy a good used  and bypass him if i ever need parts or upgrades  ;) :D :D ;D
And when a reputation getts around its hard to shake  : and thats when itl cost the most :( :'( :'(

Chris

[Handy Andy]

  I've had good experience with Woodmaster.  Course I bought a new one.  There are several around, surprising how many guys have them.  A cousin made flooring for his son's house, and then used just plain boards for the trim.  Can't figure why he didn't use molding cutters.  Found a used one advertised before I bought mine, and the guy wanted new price.  Seemed dumb to pay new price for used, so I got a new one.

[Osric]

I can't defend their response but I don't see the harm in telling him what the asking price was for a used machine that they built. Why did you feel that was an inappropriate request?

Old joke:

A guy sees a used car for sale that looks nice (note:  "car" can be replaced by any other object...it is not important to the 'joke') and goes up to the salesman.

"My that sure is a nice car there...how much is it?"

The salesman looks at him and deadpans, "how much do you got?"



OK...not much of a joke but if you've ever spent time in sales, you understand the truth of it....especially if you've worked commission sales.  Sales is about getting the most possible out of your product.  If you can control to a degree what each customer pays, you can maximize your profits.

Now, I called to find out if I could buy the 'pro pak' separately and if so, if I could get a better price on it than the individual components.  That is it.  I may have bought a machine from them a few years back and wanted to upgrade...I may have inherited a machine from my dad, I may have bought one on the used market...it doesn't effect the current sale in the slightest how I got the machine (although I admit that I shouldn't have let him know that I was looking to buy a used machine at that time).  It doesn't impact the equation in the slightest.  I'm looking to buy new parts for old equipment.  The price of that new equipment therefore should not change UNLESS the salesman is trying to size me up to find out how much money I have to spend and his best chances of getting said money.

This is a pretty standard sales training technique (I've been through that training myself). 

So, I didn't want to answer the question because it had no impact on the current negotiations and no relevance to the topic.  What and how much money I spend on a piece of equipment is nobody's business by my own.  I would no more tell him "I spent XXX on it", than I would tell a car salesman what I paid for a car that I was looking to upgrade or a computer technician how much I paid for a computer that I was looking to upgrade.  It simply doesn't matter and is frankly not their business.


It is entirely possible that he didn't like my response (although my tone was polite).  But guess what?  That doesn't matter.  Salesmen aren't paid to like responses...in fact salesmen are trained to ignore most responses they get from customers because their primary goal is to make the sale.  Customers can be (and frequently are) rude and demanding.  A good salesman smiles through the BS and says, "yes sir, I understand...now let me see what I can do for you."  To hang up (and it was a hang-up...not a disconnection...there was a finality to his "OK" and a pause..this wasn't something that occurred in mid sentence) on a customer that is looking to spend money is....well, you can come to your own conclusion on whether it is something you'd like your employees to do. 


But I think all is going to end well.  Like I said before, the machine looks good and it comes with most everything I"m looking for.  What it doesn't have I think I can get through the secondary market or make myself.  I'll get this machine, but odds of me spending more money through the company are slim...and I haven't been slim in years  :D 

[Jeff]

...well, you can come to your own conclusion on whether it is something you'd like your employees to do. 

That's why you should call Will. If he doesn't know, then what can he do?  At this point you've made what appears to be a final conclusion and shared it with the world about a whole company due to the actions you perceived of one individual. That's not a fair thing to do without notifying the powers that be within the company and see if you get the same result.  Not fair at all.

Sometimes one may think they are being polite and civil, when in reality, they are coming off far different in anothers view. 

[logwalker]

 "Customers can be (and frequently are) rude and demanding." Osric


It happens more frequently then you know. Before I flame a company I try to make sure that there is no misunderstanding on anyone's part including my own. If you ever get your own business going you will appreciate that. Joe

[Osric]

 "Customers can be (and frequently are) rude and demanding." Osric


It happens more frequently then you know. Before I flame a company I try to make sure that there is no misunderstanding on anyone's part including my own. If you ever get your own business going you will appreciate that. Joe

I've owned and operated my own business in the past.  I'm well aware of the trials and tribulations of dealing with customer service.

[Osric]

...well, you can come to your own conclusion on whether it is something you'd like your employees to do. 

That's why you should call Will. If he doesn't know, then what can he do?  At this point you've made what appears to be a final conclusion and shared it with the world about a whole company due to the actions you perceived of one individual. That's not a fair thing to do without notifying the powers that be within the company and see if you get the same result.  Not fair at all.

Sometimes one may think they are being polite and civil, when in reality, they are coming off far different in anothers view. 

Not to belabor the point, but I haven't come to this conclusion after a single incident...I have contacted them on a few different occasions and have received similar treatment.

Is it unfair that I post this on a board as a result of my experiences without first contacting the owner?  Maybe.  But it really isn't my responsibility to police someone else's company.  I'm sure the owner would appreciate my input and maybe he would take steps to improve customer service...and maybe I'll drop him a line, I'm not ruling that out.  But I think I have a greater responsibility to a community I participate in (be it online or in real life) to be up front with experiences I've had with a company that they may deal with.

From comments from others on this board, I'm not alone in my views with WMaster.  This thread has come off as more than a rant than I really intended, but my opinion is not based on a single incident, nor would I pan a company based on a single encounter (unless it was really, really bad.)  I do not take this post lightly nor do I think that I've over-reacted by alerting the community about my experiences.

[Tom]

Sometimes these displays of dissatisfaction do get out of hand, or at least turn into something we hadn't aimed them to do.  It's certainly not always a bad thing to air a grievance on a Bulletin Board as long as it doesn't turn into a whipping.  It's the responses that can sometimes inflate the posts, but we have to be careful to calm them down too, accepting some responsibility by making the post in the first place.

I had a talk with Will Johnson, President of TimberKing, about Wood Master Planers, back in 1999.  I have one of them and have been satisfied with it, what little bit I've used it.  I was comparing Wood Master to RBI and was asking about the similarities.  Will told me the RBI and Wood Master story, then told me the TimberKing story and insinuated that the two companies weren't just divisions of the same company.  They share the same facilities a share some of the same advertising but are separate companies, even sharing the same heritage of the founding company, Bellsaw.  He didn't even take my positive comments as a feather in his cap, but told me that he would pass them on to those who were responsible.

The CEO of Woodmaster Tools is a fellow by the name of John Miller.  That's probably who should receive your missive.

I've done this very same thing on occassion and written a company about my experiences with them.  Sometimes they respond positively, sometimes negatively and sometimes, not at all.  I still get the satisfaction of having told someone locked up in an office what is going on in with their public image.  I do know that it shouldn't be a rant, but should be a positive effort at corrective criticism.  Driving tacks with Sledgehammers just creates defensiveness and long, drawn-out arguments and ill feelings.

I don't think this thread, or the responses, are as bad as you might think.  I just wanted to say that, without some explanation, it might be taken that it is a criticism of a Forestry Forum Sponsor, when, in fact, it isn't.   I'd hate to see a company that has stood behind us from the very first days  (you'll notice that Timber King is first in the list of sponsors) take an unearned slam.  That's why I had also mentioned the use of the abreviations  WM earlier.  In all fairness, we have to be careful with what we say.  Spoken words can't be called back. At least our written words can be explained.

Other than a resolution, if one is reached, this thread has probably run its course.  I certainly hope that all works out OK.  I do like my Wood Master, though I've not had much contact with their customer service.

I don't think I would let an instance like this stand in the way of my enjoying the tool or even upgrading  it.  It has a lot of possibilities.

[Tom]

You know what?   I just thought of something that is pretty neat.

Not to be downgrading logging and sawmill equipment that is made elsewhere, but our industry still has a good representation of manufacturers who build USA made equipment by US workers. No, I'm not talking Union here, I'm talking about friends and neighbors.

TimberKing has a legacy of Bellsaw, that goes back to 1929.  They are located in Missouri. You can read their interesting history on their website under About Us.  Newer companies are all American too.  Woodmizer has sold a couple or three sawmills in it's life and built one heck of a reputation.  They are in Indiana. They also have delved into other inventions, like the Sterling engine, planers, kilns and wood heaters.  Wood Mizer's history is a good one to read as well.   

Baker hasn't been making sawmills all that long, but they have been in the pallet business for a lot of years and made quite a dent in the resaw industry before they started with the bandsaw mills.  They are in the middle of country in  Ellington, Missouri.

Mobile Dimension has been around a long time, since 1962. The State of Florida even bought four of them and loaned them out to farmers years ago. Mobile dimension is in Troutdale, Oregon. While not a sponsor, we have become fast friends with some of their employees who have frequented the Forum.

Mighty Mite of Canby, Oregon has users that belong to the Forum.

Cooks Saw has quite a following here as well as Hudson.  All of the U.S. Companies.

Blue Ox, a company in Vermont, makes log trailers, loaders, etc.

Logrite, in Vernon, Ct., makes logging tools

Nyle, in Brewer, maine, makes kilns. 

Not to mention the specialty industries like the Forest Products Industry INsurance Companies, Forest Insurance Center Agency and Mauck Insurance Agency who specifically cater to "Tree" people.

The more I think of it, the more I find that our industry is well represented by manufacturers who put U.S. workers in jobs.  Just think of all the little backyard sawmill manufacturers that have showed up at agricultural shows over the last 25 years or so.  Each one is feeding families and providing the means to send kids through school.

Kinda makes you proud, doesn't it?  ;D

[beenthere]

Quite proud, Tom. Thanks for the good reminder. And to stay in business, they need customers that can spend money for their equipment.

[logwalker]

Very Positive post Tom. And we need all the positive we can get right now. I am going right now and read the Woodmaster history. Joe

[Jeff]

Some of you may have missed this a couple years ago. Pretty interesting old literature.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,18865.0.html

[David Freed]

My experience with Woodmaster has been the complete opposite. The salesman I was dealing with in 5 or 6 phone calls over a several day period when I special-ordered my 718 went beyond what I would expect from many companies. He even got the assembly line foreman on the phone to see if they could build the machine the way I wanted (they could). This is the first bad experiences I have heard of.

[Handy Andy]

  My neighbor has been wanting to get a mill for a few years.  I stopped by his shop today, and he had a TK 1600 sitting in there.  He said the guy didn't have any paperwork on it, but he had called TK and already had an owners manual, and other paperwork, said they had told him to who they had sold the mill on what day, and whatever he needs they will get for him.  It's been sitting outside, and the guide bearings are froze up, and the chains are rusty, already had the oil changed in the engine and the hydraulics, will take a little work to get it ready to saw.  But a nice mill, the guy said it had about 50 hours on it.  The mill is an '02, but the engine says '05.
He wouldn't tell me the exact price he paid, but is happy about what he paid.  

[woodmills1]

a little off topic but in line with the idea of remaining calm weather you are supplier or customer



during our first cold snap maybe 2 weeks ago was cutting fench boards on woodmizer

guy who I had picked up logs for shows up and begs me for rush job of 1.5 oak


says I will come back at three with price, a tip and a coffe


I say ok stop my work, do job, flop boards in driveway and continue job


no guy at three no guy for 3 days

I call a friend he calls a friend I get a number talk to wife
20 minutes later father(who needed wood) calls and says sorry son misunderstood wil come tomorrow


My wife says why so nice to deadbeats on phone......me.....its customers


long story short 3 more days no money no pick up 3 more phone calls



my wife says why you still being........





end of story... I deliver wood get money and good new customer who is amazed to find local sawmill with responsible owner who delivers.......... :P

[Tom]

That                                                     was   
   
                           tough                                               to   

                                     
                                                                                                                                   read.

[logwalker]

Tom, you have to read between the lines.   ;)

[Tom]

It takes a lot of patience to deal with customers sometimes.  I think that you have to be the main entity in a successful operation to understand.  That's what makes having employees such a risk. They haven't anything to lose by being nice, same paycheck.  But, for some reason, they haven't the same cognitive awareness in cause and effect. 

It seems to me that the direction of peoples response to one another over the years has turned from one of humility, appreciation and patience to impatience, criticism and condemnation. 

When I was a young sprout, the matronly and helpful telephone operator would say, "number please".  If that position were filled by someone in today's society, I can imagine the retort being "wadda ya want".  We are all so angry.  Success is created by being able to perpetuate "little" positive things such as a smile. 

I have a rule by which I try to live, "Nice'em to death".   I can be a mean, old SOB too.  But, when I remember my rule, I slow down.

[snowman]

This is all very interesting to me because I just finished watching the CD for my woodmaster thats still in the box in back of my pickup.If it wasn't so early Id drink! This things pretty complex to setup for a grouchy old logger. It's like machine shop stuff.I'm hoping once I actually get going on the setup it will kinda magically come together. :D That won't be until next summer though, I bought it now because of their half price deal. gives me lotsa time to fret over this.I got extras too like the router and sander attachment, my heads spinning, the CD kinda freaked me out.What time is it anyway? :D

[Handy Andy]

  Hey Snowman, did you get the insert cutterhead?  Costs a little extra, but makes it a lot easier to change the blades for us old blind codgers.  Woodmaster is a lot simpler than it would seem after you get the hood off.  And changing the cutterhead isn't hard either if you've ever put bearings in an old combine.  Jim

[DR Buck]

I've had great results talking with Wood Master.   I had long detailed conversations before I bought the extension tables and then again before buying the digital height indicator.   They were quite helpful.

[WILDSAWMILL]

im glad some of you have had good luck
not all of us have

[Corley5]

  I just bought a Woodmaster 718 with a 6 blade resaw setup and extra blades on E-bay.  No other attachments but for 500 bux I think I did OK.  It looks good from the pics and supposedly has only had 80 or so hours of use.  With the addition of a couple attachments and some knives this should do what I want.  I hope  ???    Gotta make a trip to Comstock Park, Mi to pick it up 
  I've been thinking about making some paneling, flooring, and trim for the addition and have been having negative thoughts about using the old sticker machine.  I was gonna offer the belt lacing job to Wildflower  ;)  

[Rocks4U]

I called and got a qoute on a 725 and router setup couldn't afford it right now found a used 725 called back and ordered the router setup for it. They have been great to work with helpful and polite. The used 725 is a old blue colored one with 4 rollers and very thing works great on it... Thanks Woodmaster 
Simple to work on