Crank bearings from China

[GRP7099]

I use a decent amount of 6202 C3 bearings for rebuilds on 272xp 372xp etc. I recently had the chance to get some from Timken through a supplier we use at our mill. I received them today and was surprised to see the Timken box with a made in China tag on it. So I'm wondering, are they any better than bearings from a Chinese company like farmertec? With today's global economy you really don't know where the components that make up the parts come from. 

[donbj]

Good brand name companies that farm out production have specs that are required to be followed at the manufacturer. I'd be leary of a cheap Chinese brand name with unknown quality control or care for reliability.

That said even some good brand name stuff is slippin.

[Ianab]

Some Chinese factories are completely capable of making good quality stuff, Heck most of Apple's computers and phones are made there. 

It's "cheap" and "Chinese" where things get dodgy. You want the lowest price, then you get the cheapest materials, and QC is seldom even mentioned. 

Ironically when I bought my new lawnmower, it had a "Made in the USA" sticker on the B&S engine.  But a little research shows the US made B&S is the "Domestic Use" line. The more expensive and presumably durable versions are made in the Chinese factory. No complaints, the US engine has worked fine, just interesting that the Chinese "Industrial" version would be more expensive. 

[Real1shepherd]

Indeed, the Chinese can make anything of quality on an equal to the US, Japan, the Swiss and the Germans. But that's not their usual business model. The US and other counties have moved manufacturing over there for benefits of the cheap labor force and not having to ever deal with crippling union strikes.

It's a perfect storm for cheap parts and finished products. And add to all that their horrific human rights issues/politics. They sunk billions into the 5G network/technology and they also installed back doors so they could 'spy' endlessly on the world.

It truly is a 'fox watching the hen-house' saga. Yeah, it's entirely born from wanting your products cheap and accessible now.

Kevin

[Spike60]

Sure is a little different feeling now, or at least it should be, when talking about Chinese aftermarket parts. I'm actually surprised that there isn't more circumspection regarding buying these parts here within the saw community. I'd have expected more guys to say they were no longer willing to continue buying that stuff and supporting those suppliers. But for a lot of folks, their wallet often overrules their conscience. 

[Al_Smith]

On the subject,bearings are made all over the world.In a rebuild of a McCulloch 125C I was shocked to see bearings made in Japan on a saw made in the late 70's .Nothing surprises me these days .
I've found out certain German companies have a mind set to make bearing etc in an odd ball size and design and not duplicated by anybody for public sale .You have to go through that company for repair parts .That way they control the after market .It's not just chainsaws either ,just about everything .

[Al_Smith]

Just for the  subject I have the master interchange books from Bearings Inc that covers just about every bearing ever made as well as the seals .The ones you cannot find interchange for most likely are indeed OEM only .
Being a collector I've only found very few bearings and seals on chainsaws I could not cross reference .Recently on  a rebuild of two Partner P-100 ,no problem ,found them on e-bay and inexpensive .
However on a model 048 Stihl,clutch side there are no choices .Limited to new old dealer stock and very rare .I have only one seal left in my stash . I could do some creative machining  to adapt something else but that would be quite a task .Like I've said many times restoration of anything is not for the impatient .It might span years before it gets done .

[Spike60]

Al, I'm not so good on the patience thing once a project gets started. :D  Like to get it finished and move on to the next and not have too many things going on at once. Some guys are good with that, but I'm one of those A, then B, then C. types. If something stalls, I'll box it up and come back to it another time. Like you said, some things do take years.

[Real1shepherd]

I wouldn't hesitate to buy bearings, seals or precision tools from Japan. Their track record after the dismal days of post WWII is excellent. Those kinds of things from Japan are on a par with anything the Germans make, but usually cheaper.

You work on enough equipment and you get into proprietary parts. It's usually been a way to get you to come back to and stay with the dealer.

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

Sure is a little different feeling now, or at least it should be, when talking about Chinese aftermarket parts. I'm actually surprised that there isn't more circumspection regarding buying these parts here within the saw community. I'd have expected more guys to say they were no longer willing to continue buying that stuff and supporting those suppliers. But for a lot of folks, their wallet often overrules their conscience.  

You always have this large fraternity of guys that will step over dollars to pick up pennies. They lay awake at night wondering who they can ambush with their latest tale of 'thrift' purchasing.

It now rules our economy and dictates our everyday purchasing choices.
I've watched MANY guys trying to justify putting a $25 P&C into a once good brand saw. Don't even get me started.......lol.

Kevin

[ZeroJunk]

I fix equipment for people who will use it after the next ice storm, or never.

And, I fix equipment for people who use it to make a living.

I use different parts.

[Al_Smith]

Depends on what it is if you can easily find parts .Case in point my old Oliver OC 6 crawler .At one time you could not find new replacement parts for the track rollers so it took some creativity to repair them .Now you can find parts .You can build a complete CJ model Jeep from after market parts including the frame . Model A Fords same deal .
I'm a firm believer that any thing made with human hands can be duplicated .

[Real1shepherd]

I fix equipment for people who will use it after the next ice storm, or never.

And, I fix equipment for people who use it to make a living.

I use different parts.

I see some logic in that, but it's not the repair persons fault, it's the owner's. He's the one that's taking a good saw and putting in cheap top ends. And yeah, his logic is that he uses the saw only occasionally, so why put OE or equivalent parts in it.....?

But to me, that's all the more reason to put in good parts.....for an occasional use saw. Last thing I would wanna worry about is P&C damage from cheap parts on a saw that's really needed when you do pick it up to use hard.

Kevin

[ZeroJunk]

Oh well, tell a man you will repair his 036 for $350 and see how many bites you get.

[lxskllr]

$350 compared to how much?

[Al_Smith]

You could be what I call a "purist" and use only OEM parts but that does not mean they are not made off shore .I once ordered some parts for a 1943 D4 Caterpillar but had to wait about a month because they were made in Japan .
I worked 29 years in a automotive engine plant .You might be surprised to know those parts came from all over the world .The difference from supporting your friendly local Fomoco or GM dealer and using after market often is a factor of double for the local guy .
Just yesterday I installed a defective part on a Kitchen Aid dishwasher ,took me 10 minutes .Dealer installed it might have been nearly $400 .I had $127 in it .So with that my labor must be worth over $150 an hour .I'm good I'm just not that good  8) 

[Spike60]

I started this off topic thing, and I apologize. But I do see Zero's point about people not wanting to spend money to repair a saw with all OEM parts. And there are some saws for which there are no topends available such as a 257/262. How those saws are going to be used is part of the question. 9 out of 10 guys who won't use the saw until the next ice storm won't be able to get it started anyway cause they left old gas in it.

Some guys come in with their own Ebay sourced top ends and ask us to put it together for them. I'll do it if I know the guy, but the clear understanding is no warranty if it fails. We charge a flat rebuild fee of $100 to do a saw, and there's always a few small parts that need to be added. So, there really is no "beat the system" savings unless you do your own work. In my experience, if it leaves the shop running it will be OK for an occasional use saw. Just won't last as long.

Further off topic: The aftermarket top ends aren't near as big a pain as the AM carbs are. Carbs can be erratic and frustrating. Customers come in with a saw they put an Ebay carb on and can't get it to run right. I won't waste time fussing with those so the rule is we either start with a proper OEM carb or we won't work on the saw. Now, this is assuming the customer's diagnosis is correct and he didn't toss a good OEM carb in the trash cause he actually needed a crank seal. Always entertaining, isn't it?

[Real1shepherd]

You could be what I call a "purist" and use only OEM parts but that does not mean they are not made off shore .I once ordered some parts for a 1943 D4 Caterpillar but had to wait about a month because they were made in Japan .
I worked 29 years in a automotive engine plant .You might be surprised to know those parts came from all over the world .The difference from supporting your friendly local Fomoco or GM dealer and using after market often is a factor of double for the local guy .
Just yesterday I installed a defective part on a Kitchen Aid dishwasher ,took me 10 minutes .Dealer installed it might have been nearly $400 .I had $127 in it .So with that my labor must be worth over $150 an hour .I'm good I'm just not that good  8)

No, I'll actually look at the market and put in Meteor et al if there are savings. I'll do aftermarket if there's quality. I also look at used OE. My knee jerk gut reaction is not necessarily to run down to the dealer and buy parts just as a given.

And as I said earlier, I'll buy Japanese bearings without hesitation. Japan hasn't been a dirty word in parts for decades.
Always be suspicious of price; if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

If you had a once great saw and you're now putting in a $25 P&C set, I don't know what your expectation would be.

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

Oh well, tell a man you will repair his 036 for $350 and see how many bites you get.

If the saw is good to go in all respects for another 20yrs or whatever.....what's the problem?

If they want a cheaper price for good durability then they should fix the saw themselves with the same kind of decent parts it came with.  

You're not fixing bicycles.........

Kevin

[ZeroJunk]

Oh well, tell a man you will repair his 036 for $350 and see how many bites you get.

If the saw is good to go in all respects for another 20yrs or whatever.....what's the problem?

If they want a cheaper price for good durability then they should fix the saw themselves with the same kind of decent parts it came with.  

You're not fixing bicycles.........

Kevin

It all depends on how the saw is being used.  Most "Pros" will never get 20 years out of a saw, and they won't pay a lot of money to repair one. They will buy a new one.
The homeowner never wears a saw out, he makes a mistake. But, he will buy a new saw before he spends big money on one.
So, I get a lot of 026, 036 vintage saws free. Normally I clean the cylinder and put a new Meteor piston in it. I'll guess they get back to 95% . I'll sell it to somebody for $100, maybe $150.
If the cylinder can't be repaired I'll buy an aftermarket kit, clean any sharp edges on the ports and transfers, cut the tabs off the cir clips, and sell it to somebody for $100, maybe $150.
It's either that, or the dumpster, or parted out on eBay.
I think I have had maybe two people want a saw rebuilt with OEM parts, and they were TS420's so it might make some sense monetarily and not just emotionally.

[Al_Smith]

Again slightly off topic .A modern auto engine is capable of changing the ignition timing  20 times a second on each individual cylinder .The way they do that is with individual  coils one per cylinder controlled by the ECU unit ( onboard computer ) .On my sweeties GMC Envoy that would be six .GM wanted about $90 a pop .I found a pack of six for about 75 bucks most likely by the same concern that made them for GMC in the first place .Of course they were Mexican made but so were the originals.The more people you can eliminate out of the supply chain the cheaper it becomes just as simple as that .I don't pay full  retail unless I have no other choice .
However on the old stuff like chainsaws I'm up to my hip pocket in it's usually it's good used parts .I rebuilt a Stihl 038 Magnum that had spent 20 hard years for a tree service .It literally had grenaded the piston ,fouled one bearing .One of the guys on another site sent me a new piston .I bought the bearing and seals from a dealer and the Caber rings from E-bay .Had about $100 in the rebuild .It served for another 10 years until he gave it to me .So in answer yes you can rebuild them and get a good long service out of them .

[Real1shepherd]

Oh well, tell a man you will repair his 036 for $350 and see how many bites you get.

If the saw is good to go in all respects for another 20yrs or whatever.....what's the problem?

If they want a cheaper price for good durability then they should fix the saw themselves with the same kind of decent parts it came with.  

You're not fixing bicycles.........

Kevin

It all depends on how the saw is being used.  Most "Pros" will never get 20 years out of a saw, and they won't pay a lot of money to repair one. They will buy a new one.
The homeowner never wears a saw out, he makes a mistake. But, he will buy a new saw before he spends big money on one.
So, I get a lot of 026, 036 vintage saws free. Normally I clean the cylinder and put a new Meteor piston in it. I'll guess they get back to 95% . I'll sell it to somebody for $100, maybe $150.
If the cylinder can't be repaired I'll buy an aftermarket kit, clean any sharp edges on the ports and transfers, cut the tabs off the cir clips, and sell it to somebody for $100, maybe $150.
It's either that, or the dumpster, or parted out on eBay.
I think I have had maybe two people want a saw rebuilt with OEM parts, and they were TS420's so it might make some sense monetarily and not just emotionally.

Personal preferences, geographical customs etc, etc. All play a part in this, not to mention how you make YOUR money. I like Bob's idea that if you put in China carbs or cheap parts for a customer, he understands there can be no warranty.

In loggin' you get two yrs out of a saw and that's with the best syn gas mix. Once I quit loggin', you're right, pro saws seemingly last forever. Which to me is a real 'deal', but that's for another discussion.

So I guess, give the customers what they want, but write down on the work order you won't warranty a saw with cheap parts......keep a copy for your records. Because......most guys will come back in when the saw fails and try to blame you. Many homeowners/weekend warriors are just stupid that way.

Give them what they want, but don't let them rule your conscience/soul either....lol.

Kevin  

[ZeroJunk]

I don't do this for a living and if you netted it all out I have never made any money at it. I enjoy piddling with it. Most of the time I only charge for parts. People will give me $20 or $30 sometimes. Sometimes not. If any part I use fails I replace it free of charge regardless. If I needed the money I would put up a sign and do it like a business. I'm told I'm better at it than the people who do it for a living. Not much of a hurdle I'm afraid.

[Spike60]

Expanding on Zero's post, most everyone participating in this thread is a better saw tech than can be found at many dealers these days. Especially those dealers I mentioned that put little energy into the saw biz. Younger techs, even if they are good, won't have much knowledge of older models. All of that adds up to much of the, "it can't be fixed, you need a new saw" routine so many people run into. The debate we are having about OEM vs AM parts has plenty of good points on both sides of the fence. But re-cycling a saw like an 036 with AM parts and selling it for $150 is a far better destination for that saw than the dumpster.

As a rule, we don't sell used stuff to the public. But I do build saws like 346's and 372's that I sell to a select group of customers I've known for a while. These are pretty much all serious/pro users so it's gotta be all OEM stuff. Usually tweeked a bit, and they aren't that cheap either, so I never put them on the shelf. Besides, I can't deal with the citiots that come in and say "what do ya got used" before they even say hello. On the other end, I've sometimes just given oddball brand things I was able to get running to people who just needed a little help. They get the "free" warranty which is: You can have this saw for free, but I don't ever want to see it again cause I'm not gonna work on it. There's a funny story there, but this post is already way too long.

[ZeroJunk]

You can have this saw for free, but I don't ever want to see it again c

That's the reason I often don't charge any labor.  Most people will feel guilty about bringing me anything again. Plus, like you I don't have to feel obligated to fix the next totally unrelated problem that they don't understand is unrelated.