small woodlot skidder

[joebillhill]

I've been lurking on here for a little bit but I'm excited to get some post in now that my girlfriend and I recently purchased 9 acres on the east slope of Washington. We plan to build on it as well as manage the land for a healthy productive forest. 
It has fair amount of merchantable/usable Doug fir on it (14-30" DBH) and the site is also 20 degree slope or more for the majority of it.  We plan on developing the site and building ourselves a cabin and woodshop on it along with other structures over the years. My question is what would people recommend as a good all around machine (if there is one) to be able to level the slope in areas that we want to build as well as move logs to be able to be processed on site with a portable sawmill.
Thanks in advance for the input!
Joe

[Walnut Beast]

How much money do you have to spend on a machine 

[Maine logger88]

Probably a small dozer with a winch something like a 450 or 650 Deere or d3 or 4 cat

[Walnut Beast]

Probably a small dozer with a winch something like a 450 or 650 Deere or d3 or 4 cat

That definitely would be good for nine acres 😂. Besides how much money you have to spend do you have a 3/4 ton truck or trailer to haul whatever you get ? What if it breaks down? 

[mike_belben]

If youve gotta do stumps and dig foundations out of hillsides and skid logs with just one machine im going crawler loader. Unless you got money hangin out your ears and can afford a CTL.  Crawler loaders are the cheapest thing thatll curl stumps out, skid big logs and load them.  Even a small one will pick a 5k log no problem.  Theyre crappy at everything compared to anything else, but they can do a lot for cheap.  Nothing else in the $10k range will do it all.  Slow, clumsy, cheap and strong.  

[Gary Davis]

the garrett 15  is a small skidder but forks on a jd 450 will lift a 26 ft log 36 in in dia 

[Skeans1]

Sounds like cat ground to me there's some of JD 450's with winches but you're more likely to find 650's or 750's just due to where we are. A wheel skidder might work but you'll want chains or tracks and a decent sized tire plus finding a small one out here isn't the easiest anymore. Popping fir stumps can be an interesting task when with the right equipment. 

What part of WA are you in?

[TmbrWlkr]

+1 on the small to medium size dozer - make sure you get a winch on the back and a 6way blade.  Don't need to have a truck or trailer for it if this will be it's "home".  You can do a lot of work with a 450 size machine if you are just a little patient.  Have fun!

[Walnut Beast]

Your right you don't need a truck and trailer but just remember if your not mechanically inclined if you get something older and have problems. 💰💰 to have somebody come out to work on and if it's got to go in to the shop then you have transportation costs 

[Skeans1]

Your right you don't need a truck and trailer but just remember if your not mechanically inclined if you get something older and have problems. 💰💰 to have somebody come out to work on and if it's got to go in to the shop then you have transportation costs

No matter what you'll have transport out here I sure wouldn't want to chance hauling a small dozer or skidder with a pickup. 

[barbender]

Yep, that's hairy enough on flat land😬 We were out in Wyoming this fall, coming down the back of the Bighorns with the 5th wheel camper with the Dodge 3500. Loaded up that camper is probably 12-14k that was a ride down the mountain I did not care for! Google searches afterwards centered around "5.9 Cummins exhaust brake"😂

[mike_belben]

Theyre not that incredible.  i cut the hotside flange off the JY cat c7 turbo i used on my dt466 and welded on a flanged, ungated end to couple up a vee band for a pacbrake i also scored at the JY off a pusher rv.   


Its about 1/3 as powerful as a real jake.  Yes, they do help slow the rate of runaway slightly, but on a 10% grade at say 25 or 30k gross, they wont slow you down.  Theyll try to help keep you from gaining while youre letting off the service brake to let it cool for a second.  On big hills i still drop atleast one maybe 2 gears and ride the pacbrake the entire way.  



An autotrans will need a forced TCC lockup switch or the converter will just freewheel anyway. 

[Walnut Beast]

Your right you don't need a truck and trailer but just remember if your not mechanically inclined if you get something older and have problems. 💰💰 to have somebody come out to work on and if it's got to go in to the shop then you have transportation costs

No matter what you'll have transport out here I sure wouldn't want to chance hauling a small dozer or skidder with a pickup.

 

 

[Skeans1]

Your right you don't need a truck and trailer but just remember if your not mechanically inclined if you get something older and have problems. 💰💰 to have somebody come out to work on and if it's got to go in to the shop then you have transportation costs

No matter what you'll have transport out here I sure wouldn't want to chance hauling a small dozer or skidder with a pickup.

 

Now try that in a the PNW you'll be at the bottom of a creek the roads are steep.

[BargeMonkey]

 Somewhere I saw a picture I think came out of TX where a guy had a 210 Komatsu behind a 1 ton, flat ground sure, not here 😆 

 450-650 dozer will do alot of work, i see Deeres out there all set up going for 25-40 with 8-12khrs. Biggest thing you want to look at is the C-frame. From what I see the bigger you go out that way with a dozer the further your dollar goes, decent older 6 will do 2x the work. 

[tawilson]

I've been lurking on here for a little bit but I'm excited to get some post in now that my girlfriend and I recently purchased 9 acres on the east slope of Washington. We plan to build on it as well as manage the land for a healthy productive forest.
It has fair amount of merchantable/usable Doug fir on it (14-30" DBH) and the site is also 20 degree slope or more for the majority of it.  We plan on developing the site and building ourselves a cabin and woodshop on it along with other structures over the years. My question is what would people recommend as a good all around machine (if there is one) to be able to level the slope in areas that we want to build as well as move logs to be able to be processed on site with a portable sawmill.
Thanks in advance for the input!
Joe

If it is going to be your only piece of equipment,  maybe something a little more versatile would be better and just hire someone for a couple days of dozer work, clearing and cutting a couple trails across the property. I've never run a dozer but I've seen what can be done with an experienced operator and I would think 9 acres wouldn't take too long .

[barbender]

Mike, I had heard what you are saying, that the pac brake and others aren't very impressive. But I was riding with my uncle in his Dodge 3500 Cummins out in the Wyoming mountains, kept getting my nose put into the windshield by that brake. I immediately thought, "me want!"😁 My other uncle out there said he can come off the mountain 2 gears higher with his truck that has a brake pulling his stock trailer.

[mike_belben]

Its not that they arent helping to control the load... Its just that your perspective of a pacbrake's effectiveness changes when youre driving a 3406 or 6nz down a 10% @2200rpm with a true jacobs on 3.   I used to think the pacbrake was amazing.  I dont anymore, but i still wouldnt part with it!  

[mike_belben]

Uh oh.. Weve strayed pretty far for page one buddy!  

[tawilson]

Uh oh.. Weve strayed pretty far for page one buddy!  

I call that "bumping the thread".

[BargeMonkey]

Its not that they arent helping to control the load... Its just that your perspective of a pacbrake's effectiveness changes when youre driving a 3406 or 6nz down a 10% @2200rpm with a true jacobs on 3.   I used to think the pacbrake was amazing.  I dont anymore, but i still wouldnt part with it!  

☝️☝️.... 6NZ.... 5" and open, doesnt get any better than that... 😆 
 

[Walnut Beast]

Somewhere I saw a picture I think came out of TX where a guy had a 210 Komatsu behind a 1 ton, flat ground sure, not here 😆

450-650 dozer will do alot of work, i see Deeres out there all set up going for 25-40 with 8-12khrs. Biggest thing you want to look at is the C-frame. From what I see the bigger you go out that way with a dozer the further your dollar goes, decent older 6 will do 2x the work.

A lot of machine for the money. The 450 Deere's newer ones with cab that have 800-1,400 hrs are 80 to 90k 

[joebillhill]

Thanks for the responses guys!  

How much money do you have to spend on a machine

I guess I should have included that important bit...we were hoping in the range of 10-20k.  

We also just have a 1/2 ton Tacoma but have friends with larger vehicles.  I've also done a bit of work on an old Japanese diesel van over the years (of varying success) and would feel comfortable having whatever we bought "live on the property" and if it needed service beyond my grasp figuring out a transport for it.  We're just outside Leavenworth and not too far from Wenatchee if it needed repair.

If it is going to be your only piece of equipment,  maybe something a little more versatile would be better and just hire someone for a couple days of dozer work, clearing and cutting a couple trails across the property. I've never run a dozer but I've seen what can be done with an experienced operator and I would think 9 acres wouldn't take too long .

That's not a bad idea...we were thinking as the excavation company puts in the driveway and pad having them skid and stack any of the trees I cut for the driveway path + others to stage until we had the means to process them.  Do you have a suggestion of a piece of equipment for us though?

If youve gotta do stumps and dig foundations out of hillsides and skid logs with just one machine im going crawler loader. Unless you got money hangin out your ears and can afford a CTL.  Crawler loaders are the cheapest thing thatll curl stumps out, skid big logs and load them.  Even a small one will pick a 5k log no problem.  Theyre crappy at everything compared to anything else, but they can do a lot for cheap.  Nothing else in the $10k range will do it all.  Slow, clumsy, cheap and strong.  

I like where you're heading with this.  We don't necessarily have money hanging out our ears, but we do have time which is nice.  I would be fine slowly chipping away at the woodlot over the years and if there was a need to clear a lot of trees quickly I think we could contract out something with a local operation.
Do you have any recommendations on crawler loaders (also what is a CTL)?

Lastly to all:
We had a builder come out and look at the property, we talked to him about our goals for the property and our involvement with the work and he said his recommendation was a mini excavator to dig and skid.  What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks!

[mike_belben]

The longer the distance and the larger the trees the farther a mini ex gets from being ideal.  If its clearing scrub in a pretty central area and youve got lots of rocky soil and drainage to install.. Yeah the mini starts looking smarter.  Theres always a balance.  A trailer ball on the blade of a mini makes it a lot smarter IMO.  You dont want to drag 1 tree if you can wheel 5 and keep the hours off your undercarriage.

CTL is compact track loader.. ie bobcat on rubber track.  Big $.




I own a 79ish 450 case crawler loader backhoe because the way the drivetrain and steering is built... they dont tend to sieze up the clutches from long term sitting like you so frequently see on dry clutch machines.  1st gen deere 450 seem to always have one side stuck or no power or freewheel or brake or something..  If i ever found one that worked completely i might have bought one but in my money realm they were always broke.  Deere 350 is another popular small logging machine but same scenario above.. It cant sit 10 yrs.  The 350 and 450 C model deeres seem to be great but never in my price. 


I have a d31P-18 komatsu dozer that has been mostly fantastic.  It is wet clutch.. Id avoid the earlier dry models.. -16 and earlier.  Not sure on -17.  The motor has been great, tons of power and theyre often parked "broken" and cheaper than cat or deere.. Usually over shift issues that amounts to simple wear in some linkages that you can fix with a drill and some bolts to oversize the slop out.  Parts are getting harder to find but i havent really had to find any so win win.  Id be happy with a komatsu D31 loader too. The inline 6 non turbo jap diesel with denso pump is quite good imo. Very good fuel system.  Not bad on fuel consumption either.



Ive run a big international td25 crawler loader.. Its a big roughing machine.  Cant see at all in front of you but whatever is there, its going over or getting destroyed. Those are about a 15ton machine i guess in the $10-15k range.. Old but a lot of knowledge still in circulation over at redpower forums.  DT engines and torque convertors.  For guys with big impact guns.  


Cat always made the top tier crawlers at the top price.  My only experience was helping a guy who sheared the coupler bolts and im glad i didnt have to go far into that. Never ran one but im sure they were good if you had the $ to have it.  


I wouldnt fool with fiat allis or massey crawlers, never had enough market share so theyre obscure today.. When theyre broke you part out.  Oliver and cletrac are cute parade tractors (sorry barge)

And id probably stay away from deere 1010, track frames bend.  International TD6/7/8 are respectable, those became dresser then dressta which is still good afaik.  the old IH td340 i would skip unless it was ready to work for cheap.  Everyone seems to buy a td340 project when they first get started and it never goes back together.  Same for case 310.  Theyre all just getting too old and have had too many monkeys buy, abuse, jury rig and sell them down the line.  The next level up is usually a slightly serious investment and a bit more likely to be taken care of by a business minded person in general.  Ive looked at too many play dozers on trailer trash front lawns to want one.


Bottoms are very expensive.  Guys say $1/squeek.  Dont buy one with hanging tracks, pointy teeth, track frames worn to paper at the idler slides, rollers flatspotted and pin bushings busted through.  That wont buff out and if it dont steer run away.  Crawlers are out of vogue so you have the power there.. Few buyers, lots of them wanting a new home. 


Unfortunately all good equipment prices are rising fast.  Theres still some sanity at the auctions but may not last long, and auctions bring substantial fees plus risk.


Plan on $4 a mile to deliver, maybe worse.

And never buy a gas powered bobcat! Never ever.

[tawilson]

I've got a mini ex, a skidsteer with OTT tracks and a 45 hp tractor, both with backhoe attachments. If I had to pick one, it would be the tractor because of the different things it can do, but my favorite go to is the mini ex. If you get into much sawing you probably will want something with forks.