I noticed within the past few days of starting my skidder that it starts and idles fine but as soon as i go to take off it blows lots (i mean lots) of white smoke. this would usually clear up right away, and only return on full throttle revs.
Now here's what happened today, i started the machine to bring it in the garage to do some welding. once the welding was done i started it back up and drove it out side to put the chains back on. ( I take the chains off to bring it in the garage). when putting the chains on i left the machine idle for about 2 hours, having to move the machine well installing the chians. I figured it was easier to leave it run. Well once i had the chains on and started to move it poured white smoke. I thought it would clear up but it didn't. I would have taken a pic of it but there was enough smoke that i could not see out of the cab. I let it sit for about an hour then restarted it. it sits and idles fine with no smoke at all but as soon as i rev it up, it dumps the smoke out. the smoke smells sweet but i checked the coolant and it was full. After driving it around the yard trying to get it to clear up it started sputtering and wanting to die. almost like it was running out of fuel. any help would be great thanks guys!
I use SAE 40 wt oil rotella. and all the filters and oil are fresh.
the motor has about 350 hours on it. and i had a mechanic do the injectors and set the rack when i bought it.
sounds like an air problem.........did you do the blower drive at rebuild?
as far as i know they did. i had a shop rebuild it.
cracked head, or bad head gasket
Could be an injector problem. Check for diesel in the coolant.
hey check make sure yer emergency stop ain't tripped...........it happens
also, is there any noise......like a slapping noise?
Any time you have antifreeze come out the exhaust, its a cracked head or head gasket leaking.
Check for antifreeze in the oil.
The wanting to die sounds like a air leak in the fuel line, could be filter gasket
Yea i check the engine oil its clean no antifreeze at all.. as for it burning it i dont see the level going down at all. It is deff white smoke and deff smells sweet but i had a nother guy say he thought it was unbernt fuel?
I would go with the unburned fuel. I have had injectors fail in that way before. You could take off the exhaust manifold and see which cylinder is wet and that will tell you which injector has failed. Hope this helps.
I had a small leak around the sleeves that would let a little antifreeze in and white smoke thought it was head gasket but after ripping apart that's what I found it got bad enough that it started getting in the oil :o sweet smell sounds like antifreeze
I agree with the guys on a coolant problem, get the motor warm and look into the rad. filler and look to see if you are getting bubbles in the coolant, if so cracked head or gasket problem as these are compression bubbles, another thing to rember about a Detroit is they are not ment to be idled for any extened periods of time, if you have to idle it bring it up to at least 1/4 throttle to keep it from loading up.
Quote from: coxy on June 06, 2014, 07:06:51 AM
I had a small leak around the sleeves that would let a little antifreeze in and white smoke thought it was head gasket but after ripping apart that's what I found it got bad enough that it started getting in the oil :o sweet smell sounds like antifreeze
What do you mean by leak around the sleeves? How was it fixed?
Quote from: John Woodworth on June 06, 2014, 12:17:53 PM
I agree with the guys on a coolant problem, get the motor warm and look into the rad. filler and look to see if you are getting bubbles in the coolant, if so cracked head or gasket problem as these are compression bubbles, another thing to rember about a Detroit is they are not ment to be idled for any extened periods of time, if you have to idle it bring it up to at least 1/4 throttle to keep it from loading up.
Took the cap off the resivior and there were no bubbles in it at all when the machine was running. Im going to be working on it all weekend so i will do as many tests as i can and let you guys know what i came up with. We have a few realy good detroit guys in my town so hopefully i can get someone to come look at it.
If it turns out to be coolant it could also be a cracked block.
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 07, 2014, 10:32:13 AM
Quote from: coxy on June 06, 2014, 07:06:51 AM
I had a small leak around the sleeves that would let a little antifreeze in and white smoke thought it was head gasket but after ripping apart that's what I found it got bad enough that it started getting in the oil :o sweet smell sounds like antifreeze
What do you mean by leak around the sleeves? How was it fixed?
new o rings at least........means dissasembly
Unburnt fuel makes black smoke, oil burns a blue gray and water makes white smoke.
Could you see water moving across the top of the radiator? if not check the thermostat. That could build pressure pushing water into the cyc.
whiteish gray smoke is incomplete combustion. if it idles for 2 hr at 500 rpm its going to be running to cool and there wont be enought combustion pressure to the rings to the liners to seal like they would at higher rpm.
Quote from: LeeB on June 07, 2014, 08:11:03 PM
Unburnt fuel makes black smoke, oil burns a blue gray and water makes white smoke.
New o rings. Im confused arnt the o rings the head gasket. Or are there other o rings.
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 07, 2014, 09:13:27 PM
Quote from: LeeB on June 07, 2014, 08:11:03 PM
Unburnt fuel makes black smoke, oil burns a blue gray and water makes white smoke.
New o rings. Im confused arnt the o rings the head gasket. Or are there other o rings.
o rings seal the liner in the block. contrary to popular belief detroits do have coolant around the liner, just not low like most engines.
i have a 4-53 that needs gone through cuz a ring is leaking a tiny bit of coolant n it drips from the air box vent. it does not smoke.
i still think you have a fuel or air problem.......jmo based on what you said.
[/quote]o rings seal the liner in the block. contrary to popular belief detroits do have coolant around the liner, just not low like most engines.
i have a 4-53 that needs gone through cuz a ring is leaking a tiny bit of coolant n it drips from the air box vent. it does not smoke.
[/quote]
Now what needs to be tore apart to get at these o rings and change them. Does just the head have to come off?
White smoke in any diesel means incomplete combustion when it's cold. You say the smoke is "sweet" -- does it burn your eyes? If so, then the engine isn't getting warmed up, so first thing to check is thermostat. If the engine was warm, too much fuel would result in black smoke. Otherwise, the "white smoke" is steam from coolant.
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 08, 2014, 11:44:38 AM
o rings seal the liner in the block. contrary to popular belief detroits do have coolant around the liner, just not low like most engines.
i have a 4-53 that needs gone through cuz a ring is leaking a tiny bit of coolant n it drips from the air box vent. it does not smoke.
[/quote]
Now what needs to be tore apart to get at these o rings and change them. Does just the head have to come off?
[/quote]head base and liners.........rebuild.
i don't think thats your trouble though..........could be many things........with out being there its hard to tell.
does it miss at all?
ok here is the update. i took the cap off the coolant reservoir and wham nothing in it agian, so i pulled the dip stick and it looks clean not milky at all or over full. i then took the hood off and pulled the valve cover. i see little pockets of oil in the head and in those pockets of oil i see little green dots of coolant. any ideas what to do now?
that don't sound good..........you can verify by cracking the drain plug in the morning before start....any coolant should be in the bottom then.
hopefully its just a head gasket............what gets me is the rough running.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on June 08, 2014, 05:28:21 PM
that don't sound good..........you can verify by cracking the drain plug in the morning before start....any coolant should be in the bottom then.
hopefully its just a head gasket............what gets me is the rough running.
It was running rough due to idleing to long it loaded up.
I took the inspection plate off the side of the block and guess what i found full to the max with coolant.
if it was me I would totally rebuild the motor , its not hard believe me , pulling the liners to put new O-rings in is pretty easy but you will need to take the piston/rod out of each cylinder , the liner comes out the top of the block where the head bolts on , I would also get the head checked for cracks . If you get down abit on coolant and get motor hot pulling your load and have no coolant in the head and you all of a sendon get coolant in the head that is what cracks the head . 353/453 and very easy motors to work on and take very little time to rebuild . If I see anti-freeze in my oil I rebuild , its alot cheaper to fix now then in a short time when you spin a main/rod bearing from the anti-freeze
The motor was just rebuilt 350 hours ago. The previous owner had it done and u got all the reciepts. The old head and all the old pistons and liners.
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 08, 2014, 07:26:07 PM
I took the inspection plate off the side of the block and guess what i found full to the max with coolant.
air box/blower? that don't explain coolant in the oil though.
sounds like a dropped valve
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on June 08, 2014, 10:25:03 PM
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 08, 2014, 07:26:07 PM
I took the inspection plate off the side of the block and guess what i found full to the max with coolant.
air box/blower? that don't explain coolant in the oil though.
Its leaking in and sitting on top of the pistons causing it to eventualy leak down in the crank case.
if it goes by the o-rings on the liner the anti-freeze ends up in the oil also , just because it was rebuilt does not mean its correct . I bought a complete rebuilt 453 that had a dyno sheet come with it from a engine rebuild shop in Toronto , motor would not even run as motor was way out of set on injectors and valves , They sent up their man to fix it and he was man enough to say what I already knew and that was this motor never ran and was never on the dyno .
Ive had this same problem in an allis chalmers with a 371 gm if you seen coolant around the top of the head it means the injector tubes are leaking which in turn will leak coolant around the injectors/rocker gear and also into your combustion chamber, did you have the head overhauled? if so did they replace injector tubes?, they can been a bit tricky to reem/nurl the ends so they seal properly, talk to your engine builder and ask the question. good luck!
Quote from: Aussielogger65 on June 10, 2014, 04:42:06 AM
Ive had this same problem in an allis chalmers with a 371 gm if you seen coolant around the top of the head it means the injector tubes are leaking which in turn will leak coolant around the injectors/rocker gear and also into your combustion chamber, did you have the head overhauled? if so did they replace injector tubes?, they can been a bit tricky to reem/nurl the ends so they seal properly, talk to your engine builder and ask the question. good luck!
They put a new head onit when they rebuilt it. I did a pressure test on the coolant reservoir, with the air box cover off i can see the coolant running straight down the out side of the liners.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35472/20140608_191543.jpg)
i have had several 71 and 92's. i had a 92 do what yours did but not as bad. it was the water pump. even tho it had the updated water pump that should have leaked out the little drain pipe. it leaked inside the motor
RKH logging
Following this thread I have come to the conclusion that the overhaul preformed 350 hrs. ago was probably not a quality job.
If I were you I would hire the best Detroit man in the Sault as a consultant (you being he wrench) and have him teach you the secrets of rebuilding a 453.
My thoughts
Al
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 10, 2014, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: Aussielogger65 on June 10, 2014, 04:42:06 AM
Ive had this same problem in an allis chalmers with a 371 gm if you seen coolant around the top of the head it means the injector tubes are leaking which in turn will leak coolant around the injectors/rocker gear and also into your combustion chamber, did you have the head overhauled? if so did they replace injector tubes?, they can been a bit tricky to reem/nurl the ends so they seal properly, talk to your engine builder and ask the question. good luck!
They put a new head onit when they rebuilt it. I did a pressure test on the coolant reservoir, with the air box cover off i can see the coolant running straight down the out side of the liners.
could simply be a head gasket problem.............they do not have a head gasket like other engines, they have multible o rings and compression rings around the top of the liners..........very easy to mess up on assembly. yer gonna have to pull the head any way.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on June 10, 2014, 07:58:02 PM
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 10, 2014, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: Aussielogger65 on June 10, 2014, 04:42:06 AM
Ive had this same problem in an allis chalmers with a 371 gm if you seen coolant around the top of the head it means the injector tubes are leaking which in turn will leak coolant around the injectors/rocker gear and also into your combustion chamber, did you have the head overhauled? if so did they replace injector tubes?, they can been a bit tricky to reem/nurl the ends so they seal properly, talk to your engine builder and ask the question. good luck!
They put a new head onit when they rebuilt it. I did a pressure test on the coolant reservoir, with the air box cover off i can see the coolant running straight down the out side of the liners.
could simply be a head gasket problem.............they do not have a head gasket like other engines, they have multible o rings and compression rings around the top of the liners..........very easy to mess up on assembly. yer gonna have to pull the head any way.
Could also be the liner orings. Pulling the head would be the first thing, but if the head looks ok , can you tell if the coolant is coming down just one of the liners? If so may be liner oring seals.
possibly by looking in the air box cover...........on any engine with sleeves, take the base off and put a lil pressure in the system. you will see coolant dripping off the rod of affected cylinder.
Detroits are not known for this problem.
Series 71 detroits are dry liner while the 53 & 92 are wet, so by looking at the photo you posted I'd defiantly agree on liner orings one thing about detroits is there are many oversize liner kits to compensate for block machining, was the block machined? We rebuilt an 8v92 that had dropped oil pressure, one of the counter bores was .020" out of round! Anyway how ever you go about it good luck!
not really, the 71s do have coolant around the top few inches of the liner.
Pulled the engine today. Just wamt to know exactly what tools i need to reseal it myself. Thinking about doing it. What do you guys think? Done a few gasoline engines and a hole lot of mx bikes. But nothing like this.
I haven't personally gone too far into a Detroit. I'm working on dead hole on a 3-53 right now. You'll need torque specs and a torque wrench. There is also the issue of adjusting the valves, injectors and rack when it's all back together. I had to use a sleeve puller on any engine that I've pulled the sleeves on. Some came easy, others put up a little fight. If you have gone this far, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth the expense to buy an overhaul kit. I've seen complete 3-53 kits for under $600, so maybe $800 for a 4-53? I know it was rebuilt only a few hundred hours ago, but something didn't seem to be done right.
Yea im deffently puting new sleeves pistons and rings. Not going to worry about the bottom end. When buying the o rings and gaskets do i need to messure the diameter of the sleeves? When you press the sleeves in do they just bottom out or do you have to stop at a certain depth? Where do i get a rebuild book or manuel? Im about 50/50 right now on doing it my self. I fiqur i got to learn someday why not now.
you may not have had to pull it.........it seems like a head or gasket problem.
rebuild is easy.........tune is what ya need the man for.
when you pull the head, inspect every o ring carfully, it could be all was wrong with it.
i bet ya don't need liners with those hours.
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 15, 2014, 10:51:57 PM
Yea im deffently puting new sleeves pistons and rings. Not going to worry about the bottom end. When buying the o rings and gaskets do i need to messure the diameter of the sleeves? When you press the sleeves in do they just bottom out or do you have to stop at a certain depth? Where do i get a rebuild book or manuel? Im about 50/50 right now on doing it my self. I fiqur i got to learn someday why not now.
push the liners all the way in..........with yer thumbs, they don't fit that tight.
get the head checked out at a shop.
http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Detroit-Diesel/Detroit-Diesel-Series-53/
I am rebuilding my 3-53 .I have been using this manual.
Treeslayer evan with this much coolant in the air box you dont think its the sleeve o rings? Im confused.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35472/20140608_191543.jpg)
not usually.........detroits and coolant problems normally mean head or gasket problems.
how ever, any things possible..........i'm curios as to what happened..........
ok im lost. the other day before i pulled the engine i put 2 gallons of antifreeze in the reservoir and as fast as i poured it in it came out the air box drain. now that the motor is out i capped off all the coolant lines, and filled the engine with water and pressurized the hole system with 25lbs i let it sit pressurized for 30 minutes. well it was sitting thiere pressurized i shined a flash light into the air box cover just waiting for the water to come out and i got nothing. i have not turned the engine over since the last time i put coolant in so all the pistons are in the exact same spot in thier sleeves.
im getting really confused now. i thought that as soon as i put the water in it would just poor into the air box but its not. now what?
I took the exhaust manifold off to see if i could see which cylinder was burning the anti freeze and i cant tell each exhaust port looks the same as the others.
Take your finger and wipe it in the exhaust port, the one that tastes sweet is the one leaking.
If you haven't pulled head yet, try pulling injectors and pressurizing cooling system. If injector tube is leaking you could see it. Here is a picture of my 353 I have been working on. Good luck
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/353_head.jpg)
tantoy
For that picture of the 353, and for the uneducated, what are we looking at there?
I had a cracked block on a Detroit between the liner and airbox. Coolant came out the crack and filled the airbox. It was much worse when the engine was hot as the crack opened up. My motor had to be junked. I chased a lot of the likely problems before finding the crack. Take all of the inspection covers off and take a look around with a flashlight. That's one possible problem.
Quote from: beenthere on June 19, 2014, 12:31:31 PM
tantoy
For that picture of the 353, and for the uneducated, what are we looking at there?
you are looking at the top of the cylinder head..........the brass rings are the tops of the injector tubes..........some of the valves and the injectors are missing.
Quote from: RKH Logging on June 17, 2014, 06:35:33 PM
I took the exhaust manifold off to see if i could see which cylinder was burning the anti freeze and i cant tell each exhaust port looks the same as the others.
any news?
bump............im really curios as to what happened here
The suspense is killing me!
Quote from: Bert on June 19, 2014, 01:50:48 PM
I had a cracked block on a Detroit between the liner and airbox. Coolant came out the crack and filled the airbox. It was much worse when the engine was hot as the crack opened up. My motor had to be junked. I chased a lot of the likely problems before finding the crack. Take all of the inspection covers off and take a look around with a flashlight. That's one possible problem.
Ditto on this been there done that.Had to get a new block and start over guess this is a weak spot with 53's
Number four cylinder had a pinched o ring. Its still in the shop ive been down 3 weeks now. The blower had to be resealed also, And the valve seals. I have been depressed for the past few weeks not getting any work done and no money coming in. I sold some split firewood off the landing and what ever i could retrive with the pick up to substitude some income. Things like this makes me want to go back working per hour for someone. But thats the name of the game. I got a few backhoe jobs to hold me over next week and im hoping to have the engine back in by next friday.
ain't that sumthin.........ima be into one before to long i think.
keep yer chin up bro, things will get better
did they do anything else ?, check the rod and main bearings ? piston rings? anti freeze is quite hard on these parts , seen way to many main bearings spin on the crank after anti freeze gets in the motor oil and it does not take much of it .
Quote from: ehp on July 16, 2014, 07:03:30 PM
did they do anything else ?, check the rod and main bearings ? piston rings? anti freeze is quite hard on these parts , seen way to many main bearings spin on the crank after anti freeze gets in the motor oil and it does not take much of it .
No anti freeze got into the oil just in the air box and blower. All the bearings are brand new. The motor had new bearings and pistons and sleves put in it last year.
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on July 16, 2014, 06:07:34 PM
ain't that sumthin.........ima be into one before to long i think.
keep yer chin up bro, things will get better
Thanks man. I guess weve all been here before its just another hill to climb.
Hang in there RKH. Just a bump in the old road. :-)
What's happening now with your machine? Good news I hope!